Patroklus Murakami: Please touch the recorder to indicate consent to
be recorded
ThePrincess? Parisi: im not ..
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi: jk
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
TOPGenosse Lundquist has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
Flyingroc Chung has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi zips her lip
Gwyneth Llewelyn: just another second… the asset server is waaay slow
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Dnate Mars: lol moon
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: sorry dnate
Patroklus Murakami: ty gwyn
Moon Adamant: soem kind of problem with teh sit targets on these chairs
Moon Adamant: but i think it’s lag
Flyingroc Chung: if it’s like this all the time
Sudane Erato: brown chairs are copyavle and moveable
Flyingroc Chung: we need a bigger rathaus
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Brian, Brian… where are you, Brian? 🙂
Dnate Mars: not here 🙁
Sudane Erato: Brian is away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah … sorry, I feel shortsighted 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Bromo couldn’t make it either, right?
Patroklus Murakami: that\s right gwyn
Michel Manen: hes on holiday
TOPGenosse Lundquist: too bad.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lucky him!!!
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I welcome you all to the official ceremony of
the opening of the seventh term of the RA of the CDS 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you all for coming,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you even more for *voting* these guys in 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, of course ?
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: my deep thanks to the RA members that are willing
to serve on the next term.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now if I remember this ceremony correctly,
Beathan Vale: I swear — so help me Ford
Beathan Vale: 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’ll hear the affirmation of each member of the RA
for their willingness to serve and uphold the constitution
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (pfft Beathan)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and after that,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: traditionally the LRA (Pat this time) should make a
short speech 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So let’s get that in the order stated on the NFS
web site… Pat first
Patroklus Murakami: I, Patroklus Murakami, having been elected as a
Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of
Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully
discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will
bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rise, dear Pat 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next would be Jon…
Jon Seattle: I, Jon Seattle, having been elected as a Member of the
Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators,
Jon Seattle: do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my
duties as such to the best of my ability,
Jon Seattle: that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
Confederation of Democratic Simulators,
Jon Seattle: and that I will preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the CDS.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: next will be Leon, since Moon resigned from the RA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we need to fix that page btw)
Leon Ash: I, Leon Ash, having been elected as a Member of the
Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully
discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will
bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks :))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Beathan next, please 🙂
Beathan Vale: I, Beathan Vale, having been elected as a Member of the
Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully
discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will
bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators. So mote
it be.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks!! 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Princess, you’re the last one today 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Princess? …
Gwyneth Llewelyn nudges Princess 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: wait asec..
ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha no problem!
ThePrincess? Parisi: so laggy
ThePrincess? Parisi: i cant do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe indeed…
ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
Beathan Vale: our first Constitutional crisis — and in record time
— lol
Pelanor Eldrich: ?
Sudane Erato: hehe
ThePrincess? Parisi: I, theprincess parisi aving been elected as a
Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of
Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will
faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability,
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of
Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend
the Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
Sudane Erato: yay!!
Beathan Vale: yay!
ThePrincess? Parisi: how is htat
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah!
TOPGenosse Lundquist: /claps
Justice Soothsayer: huzzah!
Moon Adamant applauds
TOPGenosse Lundquist: congratulations everyone!
Jon Seattle claps
Beathan Vale: Woot! (yay was taken)
TOPGenosse Lundquist: what have we done, is there a way back?
Jon Seattle: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol TOP!
Patroklus Murakami stands for th next bit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well thank you all… it’s not time for Pat 😉
Beathan Vale: not time for PAt?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *now sorry
Beathan Vale: OK then — moving on — lol
Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
Michel Manen: smiles
Patroklus Murakami: Good afternoon everybody.
Patroklus Murakami: Before I turn to the ‘State of the CDS’ address,
I’d like to say a few words about Claude Desmoulins, the outgoing
Leader of the Representative Assembly who, unfortunately, cannot be
with us here today
Patroklus Murakami: I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Claude for
his calm, clear-headed leadership of the RA during the last three terms.
Beathan Vale: hear hear
Sudane Erato: hear hear
Moon Adamant: cheers!
Patroklus Murakami: There were many challenges during Claude’s term
of office – the ‘U-quake’ which destroyed much of the city, the
divisions evident in the judiciary debate.
Pelanor Eldrich: Viva DPU
Patroklus Murakami: There were also significant achievements – the
doubling of our territory with the opening of Colonia Nova and the
expansion in population that this enabled.
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: Also, the renovation of our constitutional setup
with the establishment of the Chancelry as the Executive Branch and
the New Guild.
Patroklus Murakami: The CDS has been transformed; Claude has been a
positive, unifying force throughout.
Patroklus Murakami: Six months ago, in his address, Claude asked
‘Where are we?’ Today I’d like to consider the question ‘What are
we?’ What is the CDS?
Patroklus Murakami: Interestingly, it’s a question we’ve never fully
answered. We have yet to define what the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators is in our Constitution though we refer to it continually.
Today, I’d like to offer a few thoughts on what the CDS is and what
it is for.
Patroklus Murakami: On the face of it, the answer is quite clear.
It’s the 76 or so Second Life residents who have chosen to make their
home here.
Patroklus Murakami: It’s the sims ‘Neufreistadt’ and ‘Colonia Nova’;
two specks in the ever-expanding virtual world we inhabit.
Patroklus Murakami: It’s the institutions we have designed to govern
ourselves – the Representative Assembly, the Scientific Council, the
Chancelry and the civil service positions that service them and the
community at large.
Patroklus Murakami: But the CDS is a lot more than that. It’s a model
of democratic, self-government in Second Life – perhaps the only one.
Certainly the most long-lasting, it will be our third anniversary
before long.
Patroklus Murakami: That, in itself, is an achievement that has
proved a majority of commentators wrong.
Patroklus Murakami: Proving that a group of people from different
corners of the real world can come together in a virtual world and
find democratic means to govern themselves, and continue to do so
over several years, is a powerful refutation of the idea that
democracy is somehow “deficient”, “inferior”, “not worth the effort”
or that “It will never work”. (I love that one, people still say it!)
Patroklus Murakami: But we’ve done that now, so what’s next?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: The CDS needs to turn outwards and inwards at the
same time (and not tie itself up in knots while doing so!)
Patroklus Murakami: We need to turn outwards to spread the message
that democracy works and that a democratic foundation for virtual
world projects promotes continuity and involvement.
Patroklus Murakami: It’s not a formula for avoiding drama, we have
plenty of that! But so does every group of humans engaged in a joint
activity. Democracy, at the very least, provides a tried-and-trusted
mechanism for resolving conflicts, taking decisions and involving
everybody.
Patroklus Murakami: People don’t have to join us, though that would
be nice! But we should see the establishment of other democratic,
self-governing communities in Second Life as a development that we
can nurture.
Patroklus Murakami: We need to turn inwards as well though to bring
the vitality back to our public spaces. We have many creative
citizens involved in all sorts of SL projects across the grid, let’s
bring some of that creativity to bear in our own little corner of the
world. Many of us will soon be engaged in planning and building our
third, yet-to-be-named sim. That too will require a significant effort.
Patroklus Murakami: This process of turning outward and inward
simultaneously is really the same phenomenon expressed in two
different ways. It is the expression of the confidence we have as a
mature, thriving democratic community and the challenges we are ready
to face in this next phase of our development.
Patroklus Murakami: These are challenges I feel we can all unite
around. Let’s make this a significant six months in the CDS and
continue to transform ourselves and the world around us.
Patroklus Murakami: Thank you for listening.
Moon Adamant applauds!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay Pat 🙂
Leon Ash claps
Jon Seattle: Yay!
TOPGenosse Lundquist: /claps
TOPGenosse Lundquist: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: Now then, first order of business.
Patroklus Murakami: I’d like to reserve an hour for the election of
our next Chancellor.
Patroklus Murakami: so i aim to work on the bills submitted until
around 1pm
Patroklus Murakami: that’s not long 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: but i think we can agree some very quickly and
have time to listen to the candidates propperly
Patroklus Murakami: (sorry lagging badly)
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees
Patroklus Murakami: okay, next item is teh citizenship commission bill
Patroklus Murakami realises he hasn’t put up another RA member to
introduce this…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: this isa piece of work left over from the last
RA. it has had some support and discussion on the cds forums
Patroklus Murakami: i would liek to propose bromo ivory as teh chair
of teh commission
Patroklus Murakami: is the RA ready to vote on this? (all votes will
be 7-day to allow bromo and brian to participate)
Dnate Mars: but since he can’t agree to it, won’t the bill have to be
tabled a week?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Patroklus Murakami: bromo has indicated he would be willing to chair it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not necessarily, Dnate, the RA has a quorum…
Beathan Vale: I withdraw my proposed amendment to this bill
Patroklus Murakami: ty beathan 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: all in favour of taking teh vote now? beathan?
Dnate Mars: but with a deadline of Aug 13, and the vote not ending
until Aug 12, doesn’t that cut it a little short?
Beathan Vale: aye
Jon Seattle: Yes
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Leon Ash: Yes
Patroklus Murakami: princess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: its The
Patroklus Murakami: and i vote aye too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: all in favour of teh bill. same order
Jon Seattle: Aye (out of order)
Patroklus Murakami: beathan?
Beathan Vale: aye on renewal of citizenship commission
Patroklus Murakami: leon? princess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Leon Ash: Aye
Beathan Vale: but I think that we should not draft an RA mmber who is
not here to chair
Patroklus Murakami votes aye too. so that is passed
Beathan Vale: let’s appoint the chair when all can chime in — but we
can start getting members now
Leon Ash: Agreed Breathan
Jon Seattle: Beathan, Bromo already spoke with us about this and agreed.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (btw who will be the RA Archivist?… I’m assuming
that Claude is not available for continuing on that role…)
Patroklus Murakami: i proposed bromo as the chair when i introduced
the bill
Patroklus Murakami: so that has passed, i’m afraid
Pelanor Eldrich: I’m formally the RA Archivist, but I serve at the
will of the LRA
Beathan Vale: OK — tha’s fine
Pelanor Eldrich: (like Donald Rumsfeld)
Michel Manen: hi Gelf so nice you could join us!
Moon Adamant: lol
Patroklus Murakami: next item. government question hour bill
TOPGenosse Lundquist: Hi Gelf
Gelf Yalin: hello
Patroklus Murakami: it’s self-explanatory
Jo Sapeur: hi Gelf!
Beathan Vale: aye
Moon Adamant: hi Gelf
Patroklus Murakami: does any RA member wish to raise an objection?
otherwise we’ll move to the vote
Beathan Vale: I would like to see a change
Jo Sapeur: grab a poseball next to me, Gelf

Beathan Vale: I don’t like theferring the the “EXective”
Beathan Vale: I would rather see the “Chancellor” to prevent
delegation to a civil servant
Patroklus Murakami: what’s wrong with delegation? do u mean the
organising? or attendance?
Dnate Mars: but the chancellor should be able to appoint someone to
speak on behalf
Beathan Vale: I man on the duty itself
Beathan Vale: right now it imposes a duty on “the executive”– but
there might be subparts of the executive
Beathan Vale: to be clea that the duty is on the entire executive, we
shold say “Chancellor”
Patroklus Murakami: so change teh bit in brackets in part 1 to read
“Chancellor, Legislative and Philosophical…”?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm I like clarifications 🙂
Flyingroc Chung: wouldnt it make sense for the chancellor to allow,
say the PIO to do the question hour?
Dnate Mars: not every member of the RA needs to be there, not all of
the SC needs to be there, why does the Chancellor him or herself need
to be there?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or delegate?…
Beathan Vale: no — I would say that “The Chancellor is charge” – but
leave the brackets the same
TOPGenosse Lundquist: Dnate is right
Gelf Yalin has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale: So instead of starting each sentence with”The Executive
Branch it starts “The Chancellor”
Beathan Vale: Then the Chancellor does not ned to attend — but the
Chancellor must make sure it happens
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, that would only change the organiser not
the attendance
Beathan Vale: I don’t oppose delegating the attendance — ontly the
duty to arange it
Patroklus Murakami: do other RA members wish to comment?
Dnate Mars: The chancellor is in charge of the executive branch, does
it really need to be changed?
Michel Manen: hi hugo thaks for coming by 🙂
Beathan Vale: yes — because if we are requiwing that a task be
performed, we shoudl specify who (which person) shoudl perform it
Jon Seattle: I do wonder if this will make any difference.
Patroklus Murakami: i can’t see teh problem with delegating an
organisational task
TOPGenosse Lundquist nods
Beathan Vale: I don’t have problem with that eitgher — but I want
the ultimate duty to orgnize to be a defined person
Beathan Vale: how that person does it — by delegation or otherwise
— is less important
Beathan Vale: but here has to e someone ultimately responsible
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i’ll take it as afriendly then. let’s move to
the vote
Michel Manen: the bucks stops there 😉 smiles
Pelanor Eldrich: FRC, in the US the press secretary (Tony Snow)
answers the hard question for the President. I’d much prefer the
Parlimentary system, where for example, Tony Blair is *personally*
present and on the hotseat for tough probing questions.
Moon Adamant: but Beathan, even if a civil servant, ex – teh PI –
does organis eteh schedule, the Chancellor approves it
Moon Adamant: PIO*
Patroklus Murakami: let’s vote once more in the same order. beathan?
Beathan Vale: As amended, aye
Dnate Mars: if there is a failure, the chancellor is at fault. It is
his job to run teh exectuive branch
Gwyneth Llewelyn fears the day that Beathan joins the ranks of the SC 😉
Beathan Vale: lol
Patroklus Murakami: jon?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Jon Seattle: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Leon Ash: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: princess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye too. the amended bill passes
Patroklus Murakami: quickly, let’s try to clear teh events bill. i
hve one amendment to make
TOPGenosse Lundquist: /claps 🙂 very good, practical stuff ty reps
Patroklus Murakami: givne the debate about whther ministers shoudl be
in the legislative or exec branches, i withdraw the second paragraph
which makes reference to a minister of culture
Beathan Vale: I don’t like the idea of a legislative organization
running an appropriated budget — that is the issue more than the
tile, as Fernando pointed out
Beathan Vale: title
Patroklus Murakami: that issue clearly needs more thought and we do
not want to hold up the events promotion fund unnecessarily
Beathan Vale: for now, can we appropriate it to the Chancellor?
Emiliano Fouroux: rl calls.
Patroklus Murakami: are there any remanining objectionsnow that the
bill has been amendedde
Michel Manen: thank you for coming Emiliano
Patroklus Murakami: if not, we can move to the vote
Pelanor Eldrich: I would say that traditionally the legislative
branch had a very fixed structure (members and LRA). The Exec and
civil service was designed to add/delete/change positions and
structure given the requirements of the day.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, let’s vote. beathan?
ThePrincess? Parisi: Script run-time error
ThePrincess? Parisi: Stack-Heap? Collision
Beathan Vale: nay
Patroklus Murakami: jon?
Jon Seattle: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Leon Ash: Aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: princess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: ty. that bill passes also
TOPGenosse Lundquist: Thank you Princess 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: well done! we’ve passed more bills in our first
meetin than we managed all last term
Sudane Erato: tsk!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hooray to our energetic new RA 🙂
TOPGenosse Lundquist: 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: that’s not necessarily a goo dthing, Pat/
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we table the next two bills until next
meeeting and move to teh Chancellor election (apologies for the
slight on the last RA , not intended )
Leon Ash second that motion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahah
Jon Seattle: agrees
Patroklus Murakami: beathan? princess? is that ok with you too?
Pelanor Eldrich: No offence taken Pat
ThePrincess? Parisi: wait
Beathan Vale: aye
Sudane Erato: oh well
Patroklus Murakami: princess?
Beathan Vale: lost her
Sudane Erato: she left
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Beathan Vale: let’s wait a bit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: poor Princess
Patroklus Murakami: oh dear
Patroklus Murakami: yes, let’s give her a minute or two
Leon Ash: In that case, brb 🙂
Sudane Erato: btw… its “ThePrincess”
Beathan Vale: she was on the verge, I think of objecting to tabling
the CARE bills after passing the CSDF bills
Michel Manen: i doubt it Bromo is not here and im sure hes want to
participate in person
Jon Seattle nods
Beathan Vale: ok
Dnate Mars: I can see the CARE bills also needing more time to be
discussed than what we have
Beathan Vale: I agree
Patroklus Murakami: i think both of these bills need a bit more
discussion. we have very little time today
Patroklus Murakami: and i want to do teh chancellor election justice
Leon Ash: I’m back
TOPGenosse Lundquist: wb
Justice Soothsayer: No, I am NOT a candidate, lol.
Dnate Mars: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
TOPGenosse Lundquist: heheh
Beathan Vale: draft Justice
Moon Adamant: 😀
Michel Manen: should we not wait until all 7 RA members can actually
be present?
Gwyneth Llewelyn was wondering about Pat’s sentence 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: You wouldn’t do it Justice
Patroklus Murakami: hehe. sorry justice
Patroklus Murakami: no michel. we cannot. i doubt all 7 will be here
next week either
Justice Soothsayer: LRA discovers verbal landmines are strewn
throughout the building
Dnate Mars: It sounds like that there is an effort to make sure all 7
vote, right?
Patroklus Murakami: yes dnate. all 7 will vote
Pelanor Eldrich: Why not make it a 7 day?
Beathan Vale: The procecedure for that is to priovide for a week to
allow ofr full voting
Jon Seattle: Dante, yes the seven day procedure gives everyone a
chance to vote.
Flyingroc Chung: isnt that the plan?
Pelanor Eldrich: ok
Beathan Vale: I support 7 day vote
Patroklus Murakami: yes FR, it is
Jon Seattle: Pel, we are going seven day.
Dnate Mars: unless one person gets 4 votes today, then it is mute
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we move on and hope princess is able to
join us soon
Pelanor Eldrich: (moot)
Beathan Vale: both mute and moot — voice no enabled
Pelanor Eldrich: very punny
Dnate Mars: but the question comes up, what happens if in 7 days no
one gets 4 votes?
Patroklus Murakami: I suggest we give each candidate five minutes to
tell us why they should be elected chancellor. in order dnate,
michel, moon.
Moon Adamant: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn notices many more puns about voice 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: then we can take questions from RA members and
CDS citizens.
Jon Seattle: Dnate, I guess we find out then.
Patroklus Murakami: then we will take the vote here and complete the
vote over the next 7 days
Moon Adamant: The Princess is back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay, welcome back, Princess!
Dnate Mars: WB ThePrincess?
TOPGenosse Lundquist: wb ThePrincess?
Moon Adamant: wb 🙂
Jon Seattle: wb Princess
Patroklus Murakami: if there is no clear winner at the end of the
voting, we return to this issue at our next meeting
Jo Sapeur: wb Your Highness! 😉
ThePrincess? Parisi: wow i will go more often
Leon Ash: wb ThePrincess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: do mind jos manners.. that is correct
Moon Adamant: lol
Patroklus Murakami: wb princess. what were you going to say? we’re
about to move to teh chancellor election
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
ThePrincess? Parisi: good
ThePrincess? Parisi: hurry up
Patroklus Murakami: ok. that’s me told!
ThePrincess? Parisi: it is
ThePrincess? Parisi: dont make me get a stick
Pelanor Eldrich: lol
Patroklus Murakami: dnate, the floor is yours. you have five minutes
Gwyneth Llewelyn passes Dnate a broom
Xcite! Ruler is placed firmly into ThePrincess’s hand.
Dnate Mars: Well, as chancellor, I hope to bring the full power of
the office to the people
Patroklus Murakami asks everyone else to hush up a bit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh… not for sweeping the floor… oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
Dnate Mars: I am also committed to being sure to work with the RA to
be sure nothing but what is best for the CDS is passed and placed
into Law
Dnate Mars: The Chancellor position up until now has been a vague role
Dnate Mars: one thing I hope to be able to do is to make sure what a
chancellor is expected to do is clearly defined
ThePrincess? Parisi: Script run-time error
ThePrincess? Parisi: Stack-Heap? Collision
Dnate Mars: Also, the Chancellor has a duty to the sims that the CDS
holds. I will make sure that the events come to the sims again
Dnate Mars: I will also do what is need to promote the events and the
CDS as much as I and any staff I have can
Dnate Mars: I will actively seek people to help me in this endevor by
filling the positions of PIO and any other roles with the best people
possible, wheither they be in the CDS or a future member of the CDS
Dnate Mars: Thank you, and i look forward to your support
Moon Adamant applauds
Patroklus Murakami: thank you dnate 🙂
Flyingroc Chung cheers
Beathan Vale: hear hear
Pelanor Eldrich: hear hear
Patroklus Murakami: next michel. you have the floor
TOPGenosse Lundquist: ty Dnate 🙂
Leon Ash: ty
Michel Manen: Thomas Jefferson once said that the most difficult duty
of government officials is to create new laws and institutions that
go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind
Michel Manen: –that as new discoveries are made, new truths
disclosed, as manners and opinions change with the change of
circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the
times.
Michel Manen: Navigating on the virtual waves of a Metaverse barely
starting to take shape, we stand on the edge of tomorrow and sense
that a new civilization is about to be born.
Michel Manen: Only a few generations in the long history of mankind
have been granted the privilege to create whole new structures of
government, capable of making reasoned, just, and democratic
decisions necessary for their survival in a new world.
Michel Manen: The creativity, the commitment, the enthusiasm each of
us brings to our common project light our path into the future.
Michel Manen: I see the role of the Chancellor of the CDS as that of
giving our community a sense of direction in a world of change, by
making explicit commitments:
Michel Manen: TO the rule of law, and to the equality under the law
of all our citizens;
Michel Manen: To a fair, just, and effective system of justice, based
upon the common law system, accessible to all and serving the common
good of all our citizens;
Michel Manen: TO maintaining the CDSS as an active parliamentary
democracy based on universal voting and on freedom of opinion,
association and beliefs;
Michel Manen: TO strengthening the CDS by upholding an open,
accountable and effective system of governance founded on the
principle of separation of powers; and
Michel Manen: TO ensuring the CDS develops as a tolerant society,
celebrating the diversity, protecting the rights, and recognising the
responsibilites of all our citizens and various communities.
Michel Manen: If elected Chancellor, I will commit and devote
ourselves to the service of one overarching goal : Transforming the
CDS into a Dynamic Community on the Edge of Tomorrow.
Michel Manen: Thank you.
Moon Adamant applauds
ThePrincess? Parisi: bravo
Patroklus Murakami: ty michel 🙂 excellent timing
TOPGenosse Lundquist: *cough* *ahem*
Patroklus Murakami: moon is next. you have the floor
Moon Adamant: Ty Pat 🙂
Moon Adamant: i won’t taky much time
Moon Adamant: it is my belied that the Executive Branch is an agent
Moon Adamant: whose function is to orhanize, manage and implement
executive actions, derived from a clear governamental polcy
Moon Adamant: organize*
Moon Adamant: notice that i say ‘teh Executive Branch’
Moon Adamant: in my opinion, teh whole Executive is a team
Moon Adamant: it is my proposal to build a coherent team, committed
to the executive tasks
Moon Adamant: a flexible team…. this RA has passed bills that give
further responsability and tasks to the Executive branch
Moon Adamant: if i am appointed, these will be the main areas of action
Moon Adamant: – Territory . Institution of a transparent process
regarding requests of waivers to covenants, involving registry of
requests and decisions. . Maintenance of the CDS sims, by
establishing a Janitor for each. . Interventions on the public space:
– Altenstadt – Schloss – Setting of public teleporters on Platz and
Forum – Naming of streets in Colonia Nova
Moon Adamant: – Civil Service . Recruiting of citizens to fill the
existing empty roles in Civil Service. . Creation of a Tourism
Office, for local promotion and welcome of visitors to the CDS sims
Moon Adamant: – CDS Image . Setting up of general info on the CDS for
visitors on all of our sims. and establishing of an unified CDS website
Moon Adamant: – Events and cultural life . Re-institution of the
yearly events’ schedule, with preparation for Oktoberfest and Winter
Holidays. . Support of other events, including an eventual national
event policy.
Moon Adamant: – General Action . Support of the RA decisions when
necessary through executive action. . Close connection and work with
the NGOs to enhance particular aspects of the CDS life.
Moon Adamant: for short, to address these specific issues
Patroklus Murakami: stop pls 🙂
Moon Adamant: and those further that this RA may vote
Moon Adamant: ty 🙂
Moon Adamant: sorry for trespassing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty moon
Jon Seattle: cheers!
TOPGenosse Lundquist: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we have some time for questions. i suggest we
take them until 1:55 and then take the vote
Patroklus Murakami: RA members first. shoot!
Michel Manen: plese dont shoot!!
Flyingroc Chung searches for a gun
ThePrincess? Parisi: i will hit
Patroklus Murakami: LOL! sorry
Object: Michel
Object: Michel
Patroklus Murakami: fire away (oh, that’s no better!)
Xcite! Ruler is now aimed at Michel Manen
Moon Adamant: if any questions for me, can ypou please wait a minute?
brb
Beathan Vale: I have one
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead beathan
Beathan Vale: Moon has answered it —
Jon Seattle: I have one for dnate
Beathan Vale: What civil service positions would the Chancellor
create (or make sure to fill — if created by legislation) and what
would the relationship of the Chancellor to the civil servands who
fill those offices be
Moon Adamant: back, so sorry
Michel Manen: can i take that?
Patroklus Murakami: michel, then dnate. moon has already answereed
Michel Manen: CARE’s proposals on this have been clearly outlined and
I fully support them: A three person Finance Committee, a two-person
Legilative Drafting Committee, a PIO, and a Vice-Chancellor?. All
would be subject to the advice and consent of the RA, rxcept the Vice-
Chancellor who would be the runner up in the Chancellor election by
all CDS citizens.
Beathan Vale: Michel — much of that would take Constitutional
amendment — I was more interested in what you would do with your own
authority
Patroklus Murakami: dnate next
Patroklus Murakami: over to you, dnate
Dnate Mars: I would be sure to fill the POI spot as soon as possible.
Other people I would want to appoint would be general advisors to me.
I would seek people that I would want to help me see things in other
ways
Patroklus Murakami: moon, beathan was satisfied with your speech to
satisfy his question. but do u have anything to add?
Dnate Mars: There will be people that I would also trust and would
delegate some of my duties to. A event planner, janitor are a few
Patroklus Murakami: sorry dnate 🙂
Dnate Mars: It is ok, I have finished
Patroklus Murakami: ty dnate 🙂
Moon Adamant: well, i can add that for instance, the cultural bill
just passed will require that a branch of office be created, i think
Moon Adamant: to address it
Patroklus Murakami: do we have another question?
Moon Adamant: so the civil service can be expanded as need be
Jon Seattle: Yes. For DNate
Patroklus Murakami: go on jon
Jon Seattle: Dante, you mentioned that you would work to make sure
that nothing but what is best for the CDS is passed and placed into
Law. How would you do that? Could you expand on that a little?
Dnate Mars: One of the powers that the Chancellor has is the power of
the Veto.
Dnate Mars: While, I don’t see the need for it to be used a lot, if
there is something that seems unfair to the population of the CDS, I
will used the power to prevent unjust laws from being passed
Michel Manen: can i take that too?
Patroklus Murakami: yes michel. dnate, have you finished?
Dnate Mars: yes
Michel Manen: I personally believe that only the SC shpuld have the
power to veto legislation and I would do my best to make sure that
the veto is transferred frm th Executive to the Philosophical branch
in its entirety.
Patroklus Murakami: ty michel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: moon, do u wish to respond to the question?
Moon Adamant: well
Moon Adamant: i can only say that i trust the representatives of all
factions to be in constant contact with the citizens
Moon Adamant: i trust the RA representatives not to implement unjust
legislation
Moon Adamant: and i trust the SC to verify every bill passed 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
Patroklus Murakami: ty moon
Dnate Mars: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we have time for one more question (just). leon,
princess, do either of you have a question for the candidates?
Pelanor Eldrich: Do we have time for a question from the citizens?
Dnate Mars: what about the citizens?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (they come next)
Patroklus Murakami: i’m giving RA members teh chance to ask qns first
Moon Adamant: wb Leon 🙂
TOPGenosse Lundquist: wb
Leon Ash: Wb all
Patroklus Murakami: if leon and princess do not have a question we
can take one from any of the CDS citizens present. but i want to move
to the vote in about ten mins, ok?
Justice Soothsayer: Q for Michel: Why seek appointment by an RA where
your party is a minority, when you seek to have the Chancellor
elected by popular vote?
Leon Ash: I have no questions
Michel Manen: because i believe it is the right thing to do
Michel Manen: because i have a vision of this comunity
Michel Manen: We have a very clear choice between 3 different visions
of a Chancellor: Moon wants to be primarily the best possible
administrator and organiser; i want to focus first and foremost on
providing vision and leadership; and dnate is choosign a middle road
between the two. I tnk both Dnate and Moon would make great
Chancellors; but my conception of the job is different from them. You
must ow decide what type of Chancellor you wish to work with. Your
choices are very clear. Thanks.
Patroklus Murakami: ty leon 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: follow up: but isn’t the role currently
structured in the constitution primarily as administrative, with
leadership coming from the legislative branch?
Patroklus Murakami: any more questions?
Pelanor Eldrich: Q for Moon: We’ve heard about oligarchies
controlling the CDS. If you are elected then CSDF will control all 3
branches of Gov’t as well as most of the Guild. Isn’t that too much
concentration of power? Would you really veto unjust legislation
passed by your own faction?
Michel Manen: as i said, institutions are not written in stone. I
would work to strike a better bsalancce between all bra nches og
government in accordance with the rule of law, separation of powers,
and more efficient, accountable and effective government.
Moon Adamant: well; Pel, the CSDF members are known for being very
active members… so it’s not a surprise that they are present
Moon Adamant: considering how much volunteering and commitment is
needed for the CDS
Moon Adamant: oops, sorry Michel!
Michel Manen: np moon
Michel Manen: i was done
Moon Adamant: really?
Michel Manen: yes
Moon Adamant: ok, thanks
Patroklus Murakami: final question?
Moon Adamant: carrying on
Moon Adamant: oh, just let me finish please
Patroklus Murakami: yesyes
Patroklus Murakami: sorry moon
Moon Adamant: i trust that the CSDF will never pass unjust
legislation… after all, we do hold weekly meetings in which all
citizens are welcomed
Moon Adamant: and at which i speak my mind (sometimes very bluntly 🙂
Moon Adamant: Pat, please – and sorry
Patroklus Murakami: ok. i think we should move to the vote. unless
there are any objections?
Jon Seattle: I would also add, that it is not true that the CSDF
“controls” the RA, we cannot pass any legislation without the
cooperation of other parties.
Patroklus Murakami: the vote is called
Pelanor Eldrich: I would also add that the only thing stopping a full
steamrollering of the CSDF agenda is if *all* other RA members oppose
a bill.
Patroklus Murakami: beathan. how do you vote?
Justice Soothsayer: I vote for…. ooops, not a member anymore 🙁
Beathan Vale: Dnate
Patroklus Murakami: jon?
Flyingroc Chung: w00t
Moon Adamant: lol Justice
Jon Seattle: Moon Adamant
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Leon Ash: Moon Adamant
Patroklus Murakami: i vote for moon
Patroklus Murakami: princess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: The Mars one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: giggles
Dnate Mars: 🙂
Flyingroc Chung: woohoo
Patroklus Murakami: the vote will continue over the next seven days.
i suggest we adjourn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok 🙂
Dnate Mars: great!
Patroklus Murakami: ty everyone for coming
Michel Manen: thank you all!
Patroklus Murakami: a great start to teh term
Moon Adamant: thanks everyone 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm interesting result 🙂
Dnate Mars: thank you and good night!
Flyingroc Chung: I think mchel just mooned moon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha FR!!!
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjournede

Permalink.

Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
> Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
> TOPGenosse Lundquist has indicated consent to be recorded.
> Patroklus Murakami: brian has sent his apologies
> Bromo Ivory: He’s offline?
> Patroklus Murakami: let’s wait a couple of minutes for the others
> Bromo Ivory: OK
> Yogeswari Padar: hi leon
> Bromo Ivory: ALso are we going to do a 7 day if we get a quuorum?
> Bromo Ivory: Jon – did you read the link I gave you?
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: hey Leon ! 🙂
> Leon Ash: Hey TOP and Yoge
> Bromo Ivory: Hi Leon – I don’t beleive we’ve met
> Bromo Ivory: I’m Bromo Ivory – RA for CARE
> Bromo Ivory: Princess is not likely to make it – RL stuff
> Leon Ash: We’ve spoken a few times in this sim, but we’ve never really spoken iykwim 🙂
> Bromo Ivory: she IMed me this morning
> Bromo Ivory: Mya have … I am terrible with names! 🙂
> Leon Ash: Hi Bromo, we have spoken a few times in this sim, but we haven’t met properly iykwim 🙂
> Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
> Bromo Ivory: Well pleased to meet you officially Leon!
> Bromo Ivory: 🙂
> Bromo Ivory offers to shake hand to paw
> Leon Ash hsakes Bromo’s hand
> Bromo Ivory shakes Leon’s paw
> Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we begin
> Bromo Ivory: We have 4 member here?
> Patroklus Murakami: brian can’t be here and has requested that we go to 7-day voting for all bills
> Patroklus Murakami: notecards are in teh wooden box
> Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
> Bromo Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
> Patroklus Murakami: yes, bromo. we have four members present so we are quorate
> Dnate Mars: Sorry, the Guild meeting was running long
> Patroklus Murakami: first item: reports
> Bromo Ivory nods ‘Good”
> Patroklus Murakami: i don’t expect you’ll have had much time to work on teh citizenship commision bromo 🙂 but do you have anything to report? annything on plans?
> Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
> Bromo Ivory: I was going ot have a meeting next Saturday in the park that Mizou used for hers for the first meeting. I will also start a thread on the forums to get the maximum inputs. I have a time TBD – though I suspect it will be 11 or 12 on Saturday
> Bromo Ivory: So thats all I have!
> Patroklus Murakami: that’s okay, ty for that bromo
> Bromo Ivory: (Posted the section of the constitution to the forums already)
> Patroklus Murakami: dnate, do you have anything to add on the chancelry? i have asked RA members to let me give you the spreadsheet i made of their availability (to set teh RA meeting time). you might find it helpful in putting together teh gov qn hour
> Dnate Mars: yes, thank you. The one main thing I would like to announce is that we once again have the position of PIO filled
> Patroklus Murakami: excellent news? who has volunteered?
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: great 🙂
> Dnate Mars: Rose Springvale has agreed to fill the position as well as being the event coordinator
> Leon Ash: Sounds like good news
> Bromo Ivory is releived we found a volunteer
> Patroklus Murakami: good. glad to hear it. i’m sure rose will do an excellent job
> Leon Ash cheers for Rose
> Bromo Ivory claps
> ThePrincess? Parisi: hip hop
> Dnate Mars: I have been working on the Excecutive powers bill also this last week, we have been having a very good discussion on the forums. I am also working on filling the rest of the Civil servent positions
> Patroklus Murakami: and we have had one application for the events fund already. a good start in its first week of oepration
> Patroklus Murakami: i’m sure there’ll be more when it is more widely known about
> Dnate Mars: yes, we have! I think the events should be coming now
> Dnate Mars: that is all I have to say for right now
> Patroklus Murakami: ok, item 2. web portal bill. jon, could yoiu introduce this. (ty dnate)
> Bromo Ivory: I found some rates for DJ’s for anyone that wants to budget
> Moon Adamant: hello everyone
> Leon Ash: Hi Moon
> Bromo Ivory: Hi Moon! 😀
> Leon Ash: Hi Tan
> ThePrincess? Parisi: hello moon
> Michel Manen: hi moon 🙂
> Jon Seattle: Okay, as you know the CDS has several sites and applications that serve as our discussion forum and reponsitory for laws and transcripts
> Jon Seattle: Right now there are several citisezens who volunteer both the manage and fund these sites
> Jon Seattle: this bill would allow us to bring those resources into a single web site managed directly by the CDS
> Jon Seattle: and allow us to upgrade technology, as there are several excellent open source systems available.
> Jon Seattle:
> Patroklus Murakami: ty jon 🙂 anyone else wish to comment? or aska question?
> Bromo Ivory: I like this – the website is a tangle currently – so I like the bill and its provisions.
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: Yes: I like it a lot 🙂 Very good for the PIO.
> Bromo Ivory: (and Dnate needs to watch out for item #7!)
> Dnate Mars: that is why I made sure the PIO was filled before this bill passed 😉
> Bromo Ivory: lol … !
> Patroklus Murakami: hehe, good thinking dnate!
> Patroklus Murakami: any further comments?
> Patroklus Murakami: ok, let’s move to the vote. RA members, pls announce your vote
> Jon Seattle votes Aye
> Bromo Ivory votes aye
> Patroklus Murakami votes aye
> ThePrincess? Parisi votes aye
> Leon Ash votes yes
> Leon Ash corrects themselves. Votes Aye.
> Patroklus Murakami: then the bill passes. excellent!
> Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on to item 3. who would like to introduce the CARER commission bill?
> Bromo Ivory: I will
> Bromo Ivory: (Pat should i just start?)
> Patroklus Murakami: yes, pls go ahead bromo
> Bromo Ivory: OK – One of the things we wangt to do is encourage an increase of CDS centered recreation, education, artisitc and commerical activities
> Bromo Ivory: And we feel that the citizenry can speak best on what will work for them – so would like to have a comission to do just that – ask for inputs on what would work!
> Bromo Ivory: We would propose a commission in order to gather the data to come up with some conrete and workable proposals.
> Bromo Ivory: /done
> Patroklus Murakami: ok, ty bromo. would anyone else like to comment?
> Yogeswari Padar: can non-RA members speak?
> Jon Seattle: I have a question. Is this being proposed under the commission act?
> Patroklus Murakami: sure yoge 🙂
> Yogeswari Padar: my question is whether a commission – which is yet anoher layer of bureuacracy – is needed to do what bromo proposes
> Bromo Ivory: It would be a group that comes to gether to decide what would work best – it is a temporary group
> Michel Manen: its not a layer of bureaucracy- its getting as many people od possible involved in our community -something osrely laking right now
> Yogeswari Padar: why couldn’t the RA, along with the events coordinator, handle it?
> Dnate Mars: Isn’t a lot fo what this bill asks for already going on? Education with in the New Guild, Recreational with the events bill, artistic with MOCA?
> Moon Adamant: i would like to ask
> Moon Adamant: if it isn’t superposing with MoCA, Guild
> Michel Manen: well where are the results?
> Moon Adamant: you don’t think there are results?
> Michel Manen: no. the sims are as empty and eventless as usual
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: Btw, the bill has an impossibly wide range of subjects that it aims to decide on
> Moon Adamant: wait… is this only for events, then?
> Moon Adamant: so why is it called CARER…?
> Bromo Ivory: Well item #2 is the main philosphy
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: to plug a faction Moon
> Bromo Ivory: and #3 is the means
> Bromo Ivory: We don’t need to call it CARER if you don’t like
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: because Michel wrote the bill, that’s why it’s called CARER
> Michel Manen: it is designed to draw on the expertise of all our citizens in the commercial, artistic, recreational and educational fields
> Patroklus Murakami: it would help bromo 🙂
> Bromo Ivory: OK – how about “Revitalization COmission”
> Michel Manen: something not happening now
> Jon Seattle: Is this an RA commission or is it not?
> Dnate Mars: Why is this commission going to get better results then what NG or MOCA have already tried?
> Patroklus Murakami: yes, bromo. that would be better
> Bromo Ivory: The important thing is that we increase the vitality of our SIMs
> Bromo Ivory: not the silly title
> Michel Manen: because it would draw on the experience and knowledge of all our citizens
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: you hear that Michel: silly title!
> Yogeswari Padar: do you know what the citzenry wants?
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: rembmer 🙂
> Bromo Ivory: TOP – calm down
> Michel Manen: relax TOP
> Dnate Mars: I have begged people to hold classes in our sim, so far, only 2 people have stepped up to do this
> ThePrincess? Parisi: dont make me put this puppy down and get a stick
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: I am very relaxed, it’s just a lame name
> Moon Adamant: my point is
> Patroklus Murakami: TOP, i may have to slap your legs in a minute
> Jon Seattle: Still waiting for an answer though: Is this an RA commission or is it not?
> Moon Adamant: we have two orgs already doing work
> Michel Manen: sure it is
> Jon Seattle: Bromo?
> Bromo Ivory: It is a comission in the light of the citizenship comission
> Yogeswari Padar: and we now have an events coordinator
> Jon Seattle: Ah!
> Patroklus Murakami: commissions are chaired by RA members, not by the Chancellor
> Jon Seattle: then it must have a chair chosen from the RA as I understand it
> Bromo Ivory: SUre
> Dnate Mars: it is easy to say we want more events, but people don’t want to do the work to actually hold an event
> Yogeswari Padar: but do the CITIZENS want more events?
> Yogeswari Padar: have you surveyed them?
> Bromo Ivory: Well if we have been guessing and getting it wrong – perhaps that we have been working form assumptions and not data?
> Yogeswari Padar: and if they do want events, what kind?
> Michel Manen: which is why we should acutally try to listen to what all citizens hve to say, draw upon their ideas and exprience and get them all involved
> Bromo Ivory: Yes Yoge
> Yogeswari Padar: but you don’t need another group to do that, michel
> Yogeswari Padar: you have the RA, guild, MoCA, and a new events coordinator who could assess the need
> Bromo Ivory: The RA would make itself felt in a comisison, Yoge
> Dnate Mars: I agree, we do have most of this covered already
> Yogeswari Padar: but why create another layer?
> Michel Manen: no – it should involve as many people as possible not just public officials
> Moon Adamant: perhaps teh PIO could make a poll?
> Yogeswari Padar: it’s unecessary
> Bromo Ivory: We arne’t
> Yogeswari Padar: PIO is a great idea, moon
> Patroklus Murakami: i have a concern about the number of commissions being proposed. if we hold too many simultaneously we spread ourselves too thinly
> Bromo Ivory: A comission is not a bureaucratic layer – it is a fact finding council
> Michel Manen: indeed
> Moon Adamant: but do the policy on events be settled at RA level?
> Yogeswari Padar: but you have groups alsready in existence that can do this work
> Dnate Mars: do you know people as of right now that feel they can’t get heard by a group that has been mentioned in regards to events?
> Moon Adamant: isn’t it an executive task?
> Michel Manen: consulting the citizens is a task of the RA
> Dnate Mars: Anyone that wants do hold a class in these sims I have asked time and time again to contact me if they need help
> Dnate Mars: no one does….
> Yogeswari Padar: then have the RA do it, michel – survey the citizenry
> Michel Manen: well has anyone tried to do more than post notices on foerums?
> Yogeswari Padar: you dopn’t need a new commission to do it
> Bromo Ivory: So are we saying we are all comfortbale with the level of activity in the SIM’s then?
> Moon Adamant: the RA can mandate the PIO to make a poll too
> Michel Manen: its not about a poll
> Michel Manen: its about listenitng to our citizens
> Moon Adamant: no, Bromo, that’s not what we are saying
> Bromo Ivory: Good
> Michel Manen: making an effort to get them involved
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, no we are suggesting some more efficent ways of getting the same result. I think Yoge has a good point.
> Dnate Mars: Bromo, but if the citizens of the sim don’t want to hold events, we can’t make them
> Michel Manen: something we sorely lack here
> Michel Manen: well lets find out what they think
> Michel Manen: thats all this commission proposes
> Moon Adamant: but you must agree that it overlaps several NGOs?
> Yogeswari Padar: but why create another layer of bureaucracy to do it, michel, when you have groups already in place?
> Bromo Ivory: Dnate – it is a quesiton of motivation – and we can do a lot better in encouraging them – and maybe figuring out what we would need to do.
> Bromo Ivory: (not bureaucracy, Yoge)
> Michel Manen: well its not another level of bureaucracy- its making citizns feel that we care about what they think
> Yogeswari Padar: any time you add another group you create another layer, bromo
> Moon Adamant: but don’t you agree that it overlpas several NGOs’ scopes, Michel?
> Michel Manen: thats not true yoge
> Patroklus Murakami: i think we should postpone setting up another commision until the first one is underway
> Dnate Mars: and how would this commision be any better then what the NG or MOCA have tried to do in the past?
> Dnate Mars: (and currently doing?)
> Michel Manen: it could work well together with other NGOs yes
> Yogeswari Padar: why not ask the new events coordinator to poll the citizens? wouldn’t that be within her purview?
> Patroklus Murakami: nothing stops teh PIO or others from doing some of the preparatory work – polls etc
> Michel Manen: in a cooperative and not competitive spirit
> Moon Adamant: not together… i am talking overlapping here
> Michel Manen: i dont accept the premise.. there are no exclusive jurisdictions here
> Moon Adamant: FYI, the Guild is already assembling itself volunatrily for the resolutiuon of several issues
> Jon Seattle: Yes, I like Yoge’s idea on this and it would not require legislation
> Moon Adamant: well, but don’t you think that anyone who wants to join the Guild or Moca can?
> Bromo Ivory: Anyone doesn’t need a NGO structure to do events and such – but. they. don’t.
> Michel Manen: i think we need a much more direct and proractive approach in getting citizens involved than what we have so far
> Yogeswari Padar: well, perhaps, bromo, that’s telling us something important
> Patroklus Murakami: five more minutes folks. we have a lot to discuss today
> Bromo Ivory: We make assumptions, say that everythign is either OK, or that could be handled – but the fact is that it isn’t and a direct approach may be called for – and this is pretty direct
> Dnate Mars: but I don’t think we need RA to pass anything to get it done
> Michel Manen: yes- we’re lousy communicators Yoge
> Yogeswari Padar agrees with michel on that point
> Moon Adamant: i am a bit concerned, i must say, in demanding more time from the people already volunteering than it’s already being asked
> Bromo Ivory: WOuld it make sense to table this for 2 weeks and bring it up in 2 weeks on the agenda?
> Bromo Ivory: Gives everyone some time to think
> Patroklus Murakami: i think that would be a very sensible move bromo
> Bromo Ivory: I propose to do that
> Yogeswari Padar: and in the interim, another volunteer or group can survey the populace and report back with some data
> Yogeswari Padar: 🙂
> Michel Manen: lol
> Bromo Ivory: Sure – if they come up with a lot of great data maybe we won’t need it – I would love that!
> Patroklus Murakami: all in favour of tabling this for two weeks? pls vote
> Patroklus Murakami votes aye
> Bromo Ivory notes aye
> ThePrincess? Parisi votes aye
> Jon Seattle: aye
> Patroklus Murakami: did we lose leon?
> Bromo Ivory: I do not see him
> Patroklus Murakami: aah. well. the motion to table passes in his absence 🙂
> Patroklus Murakami: item 4. Defining ‘the CDS’ Proposed Constl Amendment
> Patroklus Murakami: I propose we have a brief discussion about this. to complement the forum discussion. and come to a decision on text at a future meeting
> Jon Seattle: second that proposal 🙂
> Patroklus Murakami: the purpose of putting this forward was threefold
> Bromo Ivory: (Assumption that we need one)
> Patroklus Murakami: there’s teh IP issue. if ppl do work for ‘the CDS’ what does that mean?
> Patroklus Murakami: but that’s a fairly dry legal issue. it doesn’t express our soul
> Michel Manen: in fact this issue was referred to the RA by the guild, right?
> Patroklus Murakami: so i wanted to try to put together a text that says what the CDS is all about
> Patroklus Murakami: something that explains what the CDS is
> Patroklus Murakami: i doubt i got it right 🙂 But the point was to start a discussion
> Patroklus Murakami: let’s continue that here for another twenty minutes or so
> Patroklus Murakami: i invite comments from the floor
> Bromo Ivory: :O
> Patroklus Murakami: welcome back leon btw 🙂
> Leon Ash: Thank you Pat, Did I miss anything?
> Jon Seattle: wb Leon 🙂
> Leon Ash: Any votes that is? 🙂
> Michel Manen: well it still doesnt address the specific issue the guild asked the RA to resolve…
> Jon Seattle: yes
> Jon Seattle: No, we will need more legislation to address the IP issue
> Bromo Ivory: And Sudane weighed in on not using her Alt to hold IP
> Jon Seattle: thats why this is just the first step in the discussion
> Bromo Ivory: Why not just concentrate on that issue – the IP issue?
> Michel Manen: When you say The CDS is represented by all three branches of government – what does that mean in practice?
> Bromo Ivory: (typing borked)
> Bromo Ivory: ;
> Patroklus Murakami: has the guild asked the RA to resolve an issue?
> Michel Manen: yes
> Michel Manen: Jon?
> Jon Seattle: Yes, the guild has asked that the RA resolve the assignment of IP use rights
> Bromo Ivory: Sorry – my typing is borked – please ignore my hands moving
> Patroklus Murakami: for me, that’s a no-brainer. the CDS, however defined, must hold all the use rights to its buildings, territory, IP etc
> Bromo Ivory: Sure, the devil in the details is by what mechanism
> Michel Manen: well that does not solve the problem. Who is the legal persona of the CDS?
> Jon Seattle: Indeed. but we need to find a mechaism to transfer those rights.
> Jon Seattle: Yes, and the legal entity to hold those rights.
> Michel Manen: indeed
> Patroklus Murakami: michel. the issue is trivial. all we need to do is define it and say who holds the rights
> Michel Manen: well if its so trivial why dont wew just do it? smiles
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and why are you people so rude
> Bromo Ivory: Rudeen stepped down
> Patroklus Murakami: because there are several options for *how* you might do that. and discussion over which is best
> Michel Manen: so its not so trivial after all
> Patroklus Murakami: the point i’m making is that it’s not an insuperable task
> Michel Manen: triv?i?al (tr?v’?-?l) pronunciation adj. 1. Of little significance or value
> Michel Manen: i think its quite significant
> Bromo Ivory: Well over that we had people resigning form the guild – storing off in anger and so on – so I wouldn’t belittle it
> Bromo Ivory: It is rather tough
> Michel Manen: triv?i?al (tr?v’?-?l) pronunciation adj. 1. Of little significance or value
> Michel Manen: not the same at all as insuperable
> Patroklus Murakami: it’s not beyond our wit to find a solution
> Michel Manen: i agree. lets do it.then :0
> Jon Seattle: No, its quite solveable
> Bromo Ivory: Great! I don’t see it – whats the trivial sol;ution?
> Patroklus Murakami: so let’s keep trying to find a solution
> ThePrincess? Parisi: imleaveing
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, there are several people working on additional legislation. It seems to me when we get there we will have several options.
> Michel Manen: so far we’ve actualy discussed nothing of substance related to this
> Bromo Ivory: Well then it really ins’t that trivial – and this preamble doesn’t solve that issue obvioulsy
> Jon Seattle: wb Leon
> Leon Ash: Thanks Jon
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, agreed, the preamle does not solve the whole problem
> Jon Seattle: but it is a necessary step to have some definition
> Bromo Ivory: Well doesn’t solve the legal problem –
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: hm, we lost Princess 🙁
> Bromo Ivory: The rest is platitudes
> Bromo Ivory: in my mind anyway
> Patroklus Murakami: well, bromo. the rest is what we way we are to teh outside world
> Jon Seattle: Yes, but it will very likley be required to solve the problem. You cannot write a contract nor register an organization without bylaws, etc.
> Bromo Ivory: We did she said someoen was being insulting to her in IM
> Patroklus Murakami: i think it sums up what we’re about very well
> Bromo Ivory: SO might be good to restrain name calling even in IM
> Patroklus Murakami: well, i’ve been called names by princess in IM. but let’s contiue with our meeting, shall we?
> Bromo Ivory: SO you guys got in a IM fight. Great.
> Patroklus Murakami ignores provocation
> Bromo Ivory: Yeah, best to move on
> Bromo Ivory: (not provoking expressing dissappointment)
> Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on to the next item. dnate, would you care to introduce your bill?
> Dnate Mars: Sure
> Jon Seattle: wb ThePrincess?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: the problem is that you ppl are mean to each other .. and i have heard form lots of ppl who dont participate
> ThePrincess? Parisi: that the reason is
> ThePrincess? Parisi: yu are rude
> ThePrincess? Parisi: pat you are rude
> ThePrincess? Parisi: you are inconsiderate
> ThePrincess? Parisi: an d you make this sutff person
> ThePrincess? Parisi: personal
> ThePrincess? Parisi: its not about that
> Jon Seattle: wb Leon
> Patroklus Murakami: princess. could you behave yourself? you’re disrupting the meeting
> ThePrincess? Parisi: lots of ppl dont participate
> Dnate Mars: My bill is the restructering of the Executive branch of the government. The main things to notice is that the Chancellor will be elected via the people instead of the RA. It also clairify the powers that the Exec has in regrads to his or her staff
> ThePrincess? Parisi: DONT YOU DARE TALK TO ME LIKE THAT
> Leon Ash: Having difficulties staying online tonight. Apologies everyone 🙂
> Michel Manen: free speech for RA mebmers pat?
> Patroklus Murakami: dnate is speaking princess
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i have a right to speak
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and from now on ..
> Patroklus Murakami: you are interruptng him
> ThePrincess? Parisi: you speak to me in open
> Patroklus Murakami: dnate has the floor
> ThePrincess? Parisi: dont IM me mmean theing
> ThePrincess? Parisi: CDS suffers form the way you ll act in here
> Patroklus Murakami: i’ll happily publish our entire IM exchange if you are willing, after teh meeting
> Patroklus Murakami: for now, dnate has the floor
> ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry dnate
> Moon Adamant: i would like to hear what Dnate has to say indeed…
> Dnate Mars: The main reasons I wanted to introduce this bill is to get people to start talking about the Executive banch and what is expected and needed form them.
> ThePrincess? Parisi: TOPGenosse Lundquist: Pat may be rude, but look at Michel’s character, he’s so sweet persuasive and ‘inclusive’ – isn’t that a coincidence 🙂 I wonder who always advises you: friends? Bromo? or …. is it Michel?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: dont IM me bs
> ThePrincess? Parisi: no one
> Dnate Mars: It does also take some of the power that the RA currently has by making the Chancellor less beholded to the RA and moreso to the people
> Dnate Mars: but I feel with the AB being removed the RA has much to much power and this would help balance it back to 3 branches
> Dnate Mars: We have had a very good discussion on the forums so far, and I would like to have that continue
> Moon Adamant: AB?
> Moon Adamant: ah, artisanal branch
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: hahah : why don’t you answer that Princess?
> Patroklus Murakami: TOP, please stop
> ThePrincess? Parisi: cos i amtoo busy in your IMs
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: that was a private conversation Princess just pasted here, ty very much
> ThePrincess? Parisi: dont do that in open
> Bromo Ivory: TOP – we don’t need any more personal fighting in the RA
> Dnate Mars: I would suggest after we discuss this more today that we table the actual vote for a wekk.
> Bromo Ivory agrees with Dnate
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: Bromo I was just talking to Princess, she took it to the floor; and as far as I’m concerned she better do some introspection
> Dnate Mars: any questions?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i do
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i have a question
> Patroklus Murakami: first of all. i’d like us to focus on the issue
> Patroklus Murakami: yes, princess?
> Bromo Ivory agrees with Pat
> ThePrincess? Parisi: well, i am new here.. but i want to say
> Jon Seattle: yes, please, lets focus on the bill at hand
> ThePrincess? Parisi: that i have been advised
> ThePrincess? Parisi: what?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: so i cant sepeak
> Patroklus Murakami: i’ve just invited youto speak princess. to teh bill that dnate has introduced
> ThePrincess? Parisi: this is the problem with CDS and getting people to participate
> ThePrincess? Parisi: the issues are that you people cant conduct yourselves in a way that is not hateful
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i was told not to do this for CDS
> ThePrincess? Parisi: now i know why
> ThePrincess? Parisi: its more imoprtatnt
> ThePrincess? Parisi: than the issue
> Patroklus Murakami: princess, you’re way off topic and out of line
> ThePrincess? Parisi: its why ppl are mean
> ThePrincess? Parisi: NO I AM NOT
> Patroklus Murakami: if you want to raise this issue after dnates’ bill i will give you the floor
> Moon Adamant: actually, i feel a bit curious on whom may have said that to Princess
> ThePrincess? Parisi: quite a few ppl
> Patroklus Murakami: until then, we are discussing item 5
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and the ppl you know well how deleted friends
> ThePrincess? Parisi: after the electoin
> ThePrincess? Parisi: its just silly
> Moon Adamant: seeing i don’t recall ever a scene like this in the RA in 3 terms
> ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
> ThePrincess? Parisi: no but people wont come back and serve cos you all dont speak to the real isseus that you all hate each other
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: I don’t know who told you about delting friends,… it sounds like a made up story, who told you that?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: Toop you are calling em a liar
> Patroklus Murakami: ok. all those in favour of continuing with dnates bill? (the alternative is dealing with princess’ issue now)
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: very entertaining but … why not get to item 5?
> ThePrincess? Parisi: it happened to me
> Patroklus Murakami votes aye
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and another RA memeber
> Moon Adamant bows to the RA
> Jon Seattle: yes, lets deal with item 5 first
> ThePrincess? Parisi: yes Jon
> Patroklus Murakami: leon? bromo? princess? what do you want to do?
> Bromo Ivory: I have a question abotu the bill
> Dnate Mars: If that is what we still are on, ask away 🙂
> Leon Ash: item 5 first, but I think we need to address The Princess’ concerns
> Patroklus Murakami: then we continue with dnates’ bill
> Bromo Ivory: Section (d) – the RA isn’t indicated as controlling the purse strings.
> Patroklus Murakami: bromo, your qn please
> Dnate Mars: section 2 part d?
> Bromo Ivory: Yes – I think that is the one where you are going to pay your staff
> Dnate Mars: yes, well not all of my staff has piad positions. The PIO bill states that there is $L1000 a month fo rthe office. There is also to be rummored that there is a executive branch budget somewhere
> Dnate Mars: it would be these monies that I would deal wiht
> Bromo Ivory: SO you would pay it out of your budget?
> Dnate Mars: yes
> Bromo Ivory: OK – I beleive it won’t need adjustment if that was the case
> Bromo Ivory: That’s my main question.
> Bromo Ivory: Thanks Dnate!
> Moon Adamant: but Dnate
> Dnate Mars: It is too bad the SP isn’t here to ask questions…
> Moon Adamant: the process, i would think
> Moon Adamant: would be to you to request extraordinary budgets of the RA … say you need to have another civil servant
> Dnate Mars: Well, currently it says “(d) to appoint and pay deputies or other staff to hold office in the Office of the Chancellor of CDS to facilitate the discharge of any function of the Office of the Chancellor conferred by this Act or any other Act of the Representative Assembly;”
> Dnate Mars: the only change was that they will serve at the will of the Chancellor
> Moon Adamant: yes… can’t recall if the budget isn’t at the Civil Service Act
> Jon Seattle: I have a question also.
> Patroklus Murakami: as you know dnate, i am not keen on the idea of a directly-elected chancellor
> Patroklus Murakami: the csdf opposed that when teh offic was established. why should we change our position now?
> Patroklus Murakami: and then jon has a question
> Dnate Mars: Because it is better this way 🙂
> Moon Adamant: the philosophy, as i recall, was that the three branches of gov should be appointed in different ways – to keep the balance
> Bromo Ivory: I think the Chancellor is an important enough office that direct accountability to the voters is an idea worth considering
> Dnate Mars: no, but really if the Exec is going to be the 3rd branch of the government, then it need to be more seperate then it currently is
> Patroklus Murakami: why bromo, dnate? why is it better? surely the important thing is who carreis out teh functions?
> Dnate Mars: right now the same way to over ride a veto can remove the chancellor from office. Why would any chancellor veto anything if they will just be removed form office because of it?
> Patroklus Murakami: (let’s aim to wind up at twenty to two)
> Moon Adamant: brb
> Patroklus Murakami: jon, your question?
> Michel Manen: why are we afraid of direct citizen participation? in our events, our legislation making process, the way we elect our executive? who has so much to lose by allowing more citizens to participate directly?
> Dnate Mars: I think there needs to be a way to elect the chancellor that does not require the RA to do anything for it. The SC doesn’t appoint the RA members, nor the other way around, why is this branch different?
> Jon Seattle: Yes, Dnate, I am trying to find the details. I remember that the Civil Service act protects civil servants against being fired under certain conditions. Am I correct in reading that as reversing some of those provisions?
> Dnate Mars: I think for some of the position, yes it should be
> Patroklus Murakami: (i’m not typing btw, just animating for no reason)
> Jon Seattle: Sorry, severe chat lag
> Dnate Mars: the bill is: http://aliasi.us/nburgwiki/tiki-index.php?page=NL+5-7
> Bromo Ivory: DNate, I have 1 more question
> Jon Seattle: hmmm.. did you see my follow up question?
> Dnate Mars: no I didn’t
> Jon Seattle: let me type it again.. the Civil Service Act keeps a CS from being fired if they act to protect the constition or the laws. Why reverse those provisions?
> Jon Seattle: *constitution
> Patroklus Murakami: chat lag!
> Patroklus Murakami waits for dnate
> Dnate Mars: I am not sure I understand how someone can be fired for not breaking the constitution, won’t that mean the Chancellor himself is trying to break a lawa nd will be removed?
> Jon Seattle: Not necessarily, or that may be more difficult
> Moon Adamant: hmmm, no, the Chanc is not a civil servant, and this applies specifically to them
> Jon Seattle: Moon, Dnate’s proposal allows him to fire some civil servants for any cause
> Jon Seattle: (Him being the chancellor at the time.)
> Dnate Mars: I am thinking that there needs to be 2 types of people serving under the executive branch, ones that serve at the will of the Chancellor, ie a cabenit type, and others like the PIO where the RA should affirm them
> Michel Manen: well he should have the option to work with a team of his choosing 😉
> Bromo Ivory: WOuld you be willing to delinate those that aerve by approval of RA and those that serve only at teh Chancellor’s will?
> Moon Adamant: Yes, Jon, i see the point
> Moon Adamant: and surely the civil service must keep teh level of protection on the previous bill
> Dnate Mars: it confuses me because I don’t see in the bill where it says they can’t be fired for not breaking a law. It just says they will uphold the const. just as teh chancellor must
> Michel Manen: not all – i agree with Dnate, he should have sole jurisdiction over his immediate cabinet 😉
> Patroklus Murakami: the section “he Chancellor can remove the deputies or other staff anytime with or without reason and nominate new citizens to fill those positions;” would appear to give teh chancellor to much power over appointments
> Patroklus Murakami: i doubt that is UDHR -compatible
> Jon Seattle: Well, it establishes a priority and a way of resolving disputes between the Chancellor’s directives, the laws, and the constitution.
> Dnate Mars: as of right now, if I appoint someone and they don’t work out for whatever reason, I can’t get rid of them and place someone else in the spot?
> Michel Manen: well the US cabinet members serve at the will of the President.. nothing violating human rights there 😉
> Bromo Ivory: I think the Chancellor right now doens’t have enough power – so if you guys think the proposal has too little power – then what should happen?
> Patroklus Murakami: you should be able to fire ppl for incomptence but there shd be due process
> Jon Seattle: Dnate, its not clear that you would be able to if they follow he procedure in the Civil Service bill.
> Michel Manen: and in parliamentaryr systems Prime ministers can reshuffle cabinets at will
> Dnate Mars: Not for appoint positions
> Michel Manen: not much violations of humna rights either
> Patroklus Murakami: i’m ready to vote on this. shall we move to a vote?
> Bromo Ivory: Well the RA coupld be partof the hiring process, but the firing process could be betwene the Chancellor and the officerin question?
> Jon Seattle: I move that we vote.
> Dnate Mars: (I think time is up anyway)
> Bromo Ivory: I htought we’d discuss and have avote next week?
> Dnate Mars: I think we need a vote to table it until next week?
> Dnate Mars: We can continue to talk about it on the forums….
> Bromo Ivory: I second that
> Leon Ash agrees
> Jon Seattle: Well, Dnate, then we have two different motions on the floor, we need to vote on each.
> Patroklus Murakami: we have a motion to table teh vote until next week
> Patroklus Murakami: i vote nay, let’s take the vote this week
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: good idea
> Michel Manen: yes that would seem best… we havent really discussed it in detail and others may want to participate
> Jon Seattle: I vote ney as well, lets resolve this
> Bromo Ivory: I vote aye, lets table this until next week
> Patroklus Murakami: princess?
> Dnate Mars: We haven’t even heard from the SP party…..
> Patroklus Murakami: leon?
> Bromo Ivory: Yes this is why this isn’t fair to vote on an amendment
> ThePrincess? Parisi votes aye
> Leon Ash: Postpone so I think that is Aye
> Patroklus Murakami: ok. we postpone the vote until next week
> Bromo Ivory: Dnate – can you post somethign to the forums?
> Dnate Mars: I will be posting a revised bill soon
> Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we hold off on discussing teh remaining agenda items until next week
> Patroklus Murakami: princess. you had an issue you wanted to raise? over to you
> Bromo Ivory: I second
> Leon Ash agrees with Pat, would like to hear ThePrincess’s concerns
> Bromo Ivory: Yes
> Bromo Ivory: Princess – please tell us your concern
> ThePrincess? Parisi: no i dont want to .. i will get it all togeher fro next time..
> Bromo Ivory: (Though I have in idea)
> ThePrincess? Parisi: but the basic
> ThePrincess? Parisi: is that .. you have problems in CDS
> ThePrincess? Parisi: abou tyour inabilty to get alone
> ThePrincess? Parisi: along in here
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and you might think its silly
> ThePrincess? Parisi: but tis not
> ThePrincess? Parisi: it permeates teh way ppl see us
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and it hinders our growth
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and success
> ThePrincess? Parisi: end
> Patroklus Murakami: why don’t you tell us what teh problem is rather than keeping us guessing? i’d like to publish our IM log since it is unfair to have a proper discussion without evidence
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: RA, sorry for interrupting so much. Princess do you want to apologize to me for pasting private IM’s into this meeting? Very professional!
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i have to go then sorry
> ThePrincess? Parisi: NO
> ThePrincess? Parisi: TOP
> ThePrincess? Parisi: you wer eso rutde
> ThePrincess? Parisi: and inappropriate
> Yogeswari Padar: princess, i’m wondering if you can talk a bit about the evidence you have that our growth is being hindered
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i have to go
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: How did I insult you??
> ThePrincess? Parisi: no i cant now.. i ahve to go
> ThePrincess? Parisi: you did
> Moon Adamant: i agree with Yoge, i would like to hear more on that too
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: right ….
> ThePrincess? Parisi: i will talk alter soor brb
> Bromo Ivory: Well form the log we can see that Pat and Princess got into a IM fight that got nasty enough that Princess felt the need to leave – we really shouldn’t have that sort of behavior in the RA
> Patroklus Murakami: no bromo. don’t play that game
> Bromo Ivory: I will put together a motion for a meeting to affirm the RA’s commitmmnet to civil discourse
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, I would like to hear more.. I am not at all certain what happened
> Patroklus Murakami: you didn’t see the IMs so you don’t know what was said
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: in the ra? it’s private – and who’s pasting it here? why don’t you give it some nice spin Bromo!
> Bromo Ivory: I know little more than what was spoken aloud
> Patroklus Murakami: i’m prepared to paste it all in the chat log right now
> Patroklus Murakami: all i need is for princeess to give her permission
> Bromo Ivory: TOP – this is not about spin – it is about civility – I am blaming no one, just when people get insulted and upset – it is a concern since it can shut down solid and substative discourse
> Patroklus Murakami: then we can discuss what was actually said instead of shadow boxing
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: I’m all for substantive discourse.
> Yogeswari Padar: well, then, bromo, perhaps the motion needs to clarify that private conversations must stay private and cannot be discussed publicly without the consent of both parties.
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, when it is said here in that tone, it is about gaining political advantage, its not about civil discourse. I for one would like to know if these accusations have any basis.
> Michel Manen: well except when someone tries to bully someone else…. thats not against UDHR? smiles
> Bromo Ivory: I would go further by making a non binding motion that RA’s are committed to making things said to others in the room on record
> Patroklus Murakami: bully? you mean when someone makes false accusations of ‘rudeness’ in order to shut down debate?
> Yogeswari Padar: we’re all grownups,michel, and should be able to defend ourselves privately
> Bromo Ivory: Pat it didn’t seem calculated
> Bromo Ivory: Well Yoge, but we should not HAVE TO
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: Bromo > So we can’t chuckle a bit amoung ourselves about people who make a fool of themselves?
> Dnate Mars: If people want to talk to eachother in this room without everyone knowing about it, why would that be unallowed?
> Patroklus Murakami: top, we’re not here to laugh at people. that is rude
> Yogeswari Padar: we’re also human, bromo, and often say things to each other that are less than civil. but if a conversation is private, it’s private.
> Bromo Ivory: Yes, Pat
> Moon Adamant: i agree with Yoge
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: no I know you have the priorities right, but sometimes I just can’t stop it
> Leon Ash: I find it very strange that when given the floor to point out the cause of her concern that ThePricess? decided to leave. This doesn’t inspire trust in her version of the events?
> Bromo Ivory: Yes Yoge, but we need to strive to keep things civil and respectful
> Bromo Ivory: We seem to have difficulties on the forums in this, I will agree, but at least it is on record there
> Michel Manen: well this has gone on now for 2 hrs… maybe she has RL commitments too
> Yogeswari Padar: yes, bromo, and that’s why i suggest that private conversations should be kept that way.
> Patroklus Murakami: bromo, civil is good. but you can’t limit free speech by telling people to limit their speech
> Moon Adamant: surely, but the effort is always a process on both sides
> Bromo Ivory: I was proposing a non binding resolution
> Bromo Ivory: Or will be
> Leon Ash: *ThePrincess, not ThePricess? 🙂
> Bromo Ivory: SO you can vote it down if you like
> Bromo Ivory: or ignore it afterwards
> Patroklus Murakami: wel, a non-binding resolution is not really helpful
> Bromo Ivory: No, it is helpful as it shows the desire to be civil and polite –
> Dnate Mars: but still, people may want to talk to eachother about things unrelated to the current topic, and maybe don’t want eveyone to know
> Dnate Mars: that is why it ws in IM to start will….
> Yogeswari Padar: bromo, i think the RA could set a troubling precedent if it tries to legislate private conversations
> Bromo Ivory: and if you have no such desire – and frankly and I am surprised at the push back on saying “wouldn’t it be preferable to have us be civil”
> Patroklus Murakami: i disagree bromo. private speech is protected speech
> Moon Adamant: Bromo, i think everyone here agrees that people should be civil
> Bromo Ivory: Well, OK, you can bully and insult to your hearts content.
> Dnate Mars: that is why we can publish a chat unless everyone agrees to publish it
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: Yoge > yes dangerous even ..
> Moon Adamant: the objection, i believe, is to laudering in public
> Patroklus Murakami: back that up bromo. who has bullied who? and how?
> Dnate Mars: even this RA meeting everyone had to agree before it can be published
> Yogeswari Padar: exactly, moon
> Bromo Ivory: Well, Pat this is astonishing to me – a non binding resolution – and you guys are talking about the failure of civil rights.
> Michel Manen: pat, this is not the first time you’ve been involved in arguments in which you have hurt other people… this dog wont bark.. just try to be more civil to people you interact with and things will get better.. smiles
> Patroklus Murakami: michel, ppl in glass houses…. 🙂
> Michel Manen: smiles
> Patroklus Murakami: i move we adjourn
> Dnate Mars: I think we have a call for a vote first
> Leon Ash: Does anyone know if ThePricess? will be back? I think it would be very useful to see this particular exchange.
> Moon Adamant: for all that matters, you could surely agree on keeping to the topic at all points 🙂
> Leon Ash: Between her and Pat. I’m very uncomfortable with the accusations floating around and would prefer to have it clarified.
> Patroklus Murakami: there is nothing to vote on. if bromo wishes to bring a resolutoin, it will have to be at the next RA meeting
> Bromo Ivory: Sure
> Dnate Mars: oh, sorry….
> Bromo Ivory: Understand
> Patroklus Murakami: before we adjourn i’d like bromo to tell us who has bullied who today and how?
> Patroklus Murakami: that accusation must be backed up or withdrawn
> Patroklus Murakami: it can’t be left to linger with no support
> Bromo Ivory: Pat – if Princess gives her permission to post the log – will you give yours?
> Bromo Ivory: But I do recall you admitted to bickering with her in IM
> Patroklus Murakami: i already have! twice
> Moon Adamant: Pat has said so
> Jon Seattle: yes, Bromo, can you back your accusations?
> Moon Adamant: meaning, given his permission
> Moon Adamant: and asked for hers
> Bromo Ivory: Look athe record of todays meeting Jon – its right there.
> Jon Seattle: No, it is not.
> Michel Manen: do we realy have nothing better to do than fight like school kids? lets just be civil to each other and move on…… sheeshhh….
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, you will have to point me to it.. as all I know is something went on
> Patroklus Murakami: back it up bromo or withdraw teh accusation
> Bromo Ivory: I mentioned that Prioncess said she was being insulted in IM – the Pat mentioned he had gotten in insults in IM as well.
> Bromo Ivory: with her
> Patroklus Murakami: and how is that evidene of bullying? are u suggesting princess was bullying me?
> Bromo Ivory: No, Pat I am saying that you guys got in fian IM fight by your admissions.
> Jon Seattle: That is not sufficent. I would like to see you back up your accusation with evidence that ThePrincess? was correct, or withdraw your accusation.
> Bromo Ivory: I don’t think we need to investigate further, but I trust it would be borne out
> Patroklus Murakami: bullying requires a bully and a victim
> Bromo Ivory: Jon – I am saying that thePrincess and Pat got into an IM fight – and I didn’t like it.
> Patroklus Murakami: who in you opinion is the bully? who the victim? and what is your evidence?
> Michel Manen: lol
> Bromo Ivory: We can discuss this for another hour if you like, but I don’t think I said anything that was not bourne out by the record.
> Michel Manen: ive had enough if this.
> Bromo Ivory: I have as well.
> Patroklus Murakami: so you withdraw the unsubstantiated claim of bullying?
> Leon Ash: Okay, so now everyone who’s accused Pat if being a bully is throwing their toys out the cot and leaving?
> Jon Seattle: Indeed
> Bromo Ivory: No – I am not accusing Pat of being a bully
> Leon Ash: Is this civil discourse?
> Moon Adamant: ok, so that stays for teh record as well
> Bromo Ivory: I am saying he got into a IM fight with Princess and she got upset
> TOPGenosse Lundquist: We don’t need a Judiciary Commission to do this case.
> Moon Adamant: that Bromo hasn’t accused Pat – or anyone – of bullying
> Bromo Ivory: I agree TOP
> Dnate Mars: Was pat ever accused of pat being the bully? I think Bromo just didn’t like what happened today, no matter who was right or wrong
> Bromo Ivory: YES!
> Bromo Ivory: Jeez!
> Patroklus Murakami: no, the implication was clear
> Nikki Maertens: May I ask the Princess if she feels she was a victom of being bullied?
> Patroklus Murakami: and teh tactc shameful
> Dnate Mars: if it was so clear, why did I miss it?
> Patroklus Murakami: *the tactic
> Bromo Ivory: For the record: I support what Dnate said.
> Bromo Ivory: This is no tactic, Pat.
> Leon Ash: yes please ThePrincess?, give us your side of the story 🙂
> Dnate Mars: I have no idea who was right either, but it was unprofessional
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, if it were not a tactic you would consent to hearing more before leveling your implied accusations
> Patroklus Murakami: how do you know dnate? did you read the IMs?
> Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to publish them
> Bromo Ivory: Jon, this is not a tactic – I am getting frustrated that people are behaving as if being civil to one another was a burdon!
> Patroklus Murakami: then you can make your mind up on teh basis of evidence
> Moon Adamant: well, ThePrincess? has definetely crashed now
> Dnate Mars: being interrupped while I had the floor was unprofessional
> Yogeswari Padar: you know what, gang? all of this is MOOT right now, until princess returns
> Jon Seattle: Bromo, then you are accusing pat of not being civil? On what basis?
> Dnate Mars: and that is all I know
> Patroklus Murakami: sorry, dnate. yes. that is true
> Yogeswari Padar: time to stop the discussion
> Bromo Ivory: I am saying the proccedings were not civil
> Moon Adamant: yes, i agree with Yoge
> Bromo Ivory: I agree.
> Patroklus Murakami: i’m sorry you were interrupted. it was difficult to deal with
> Patroklus Murakami: i move we adjourn
> Bromo Ivory: second
> Jon Seattle: I second that
> Leon Ash agrees
> Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned
> Dnate Mars: hurray!
> The meeting closed at 14:10 Linden time.

Permalink.

Agenda

1. Reports
– Citizenship Commission

2. Executive Branch PCA

3. Defining the CDS PCA

4. Electoral Reform
Electoral Reform PCA (CARE)
Electoral Reform PCA (CSDF)
RA Size Act (CARE)
RA Size Act (CSDF)

5. Commercial, Artistic, Recreational, and Educational Revitalisation Commission (CARER Commission) Bill

6. Re-Establish? the Judiciary Commission Bill

Transcript

Patroklus Murakami: ok. let’s begin
Patroklus Murakami: first item. reports
Jon Seattle: yes
Bromo Ivory: ok
Patroklus Murakami: bromo, could you update us on teh citizenship
commission?
Bromo Ivory: OK – we had a meeting for all comers – and got some good
inputs – lasted fomr 8.30-10am
Bromo Ivory: on last Saturday
Bromo Ivory: I posted the logs to the forums.
Bromo Ivory: Also the forum discusison has died down.
Bromo Ivory: THe next step is for me to write up the verious ideas as
best I can
Bromo Ivory: and make sure we have all inputs – then put forth a
Bromo Ivory: basic proposal
Bromo Ivory: (end)
Patroklus Murakami: any comments on the progress of the CC so far?
Sleazy Writer: Good evening everyone
Jon Seattle: Hi TOP
Yogeswari Padar: hi TOP
Patroklus Murakami waits…
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi all, Michel will be along in 5
Patroklus Murakami: any thoughts at all on the citizenship commission?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m trying to find the bill to say when it is due
to report but am failing badly 🙂
Bromo Ivory: I beleive it is in 2 weeks
Bromo Ivory: mid September – I *think*
Patroklus Murakami: aah yes. 17 september is the due date for it to
finish
Pelanor Eldrich: It’ll coincide with the Petraeus report on Iraq.
I’ll get to it right after I finish writing that one. 🙂
Bromo Ivory: I plan on having a summary of the viewpoints as well as
an initial pproposal
Patroklus Murakami: well can i encourage greater input into the
process? it’s important that we get as many views as possible
represented
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Bromo Ivory: DO you have a suggestion on what more?
Pelanor Eldrich: Meeting attendance thus far been a bit light.
Patroklus Murakami: bromo. do you plan to hold another public meeting?
Bromo Ivory: We have done Forum and only 1 meeting in world
Bromo Ivory: Yes I had planned on doing that – this time later than
the first
Bromo Ivory: I was going to have 2 more meetings in world
Patroklus Murakami: ok. well, let’s to what those meetings, and the
forum discussion, add to the discussion so far
Patroklus Murakami: *let’s see
Bromo Ivory: OK, good.
Patroklus Murakami: next item. executive branch PCA
Patroklus Murakami: dnate. do i have the latest version here for us
to discuss?
Dnate Mars: Since the forum discussion died, I guess no one wants to
discuss it any more. If there is nothing else people want to talk
about, I think all that is left is a vote
Bromo Ivory: Can you go over the laterations you have made?
Bromo Ivory: *alterations
Patroklus Murakami: yes dnate, that would be helpful
Dnate Mars: Basically the only thing that this bill now changes is
that the chancellor is directly elected
Dnate Mars: it also gives the RA oversight over appointments of
mandated posistion
Beathan Vale: I have a concern about the spending power — can we
limit it to budger approved by or submitted to RA — I don’t like the
idea of a giving a single person check writing authority without
oversight or limit
Dnate Mars: That part of the bill has not changed, it is what is
currenly in effect
Dnate Mars: it states:(b) to expend monies held by the Office of the
Chancellor of CDS for the administration and management of public
facilities (including, but not limited to, roadways, signage, public
buildings, public events and similar), and to discharge any other
duties or powers of the Office of the Chancellor conferred by this
Act or any other Act of the Representative Assembly;
Beathan Vale: yes — but my concern is increased by what I perceive
to be an increase in the activity of the office
Pelanor Eldrich: I think the implication is that the “expended monies
held by the Office” are only those allocated by the RA approved budget.
Dnate Mars: so the only money that can be spent is what is given to
the office of the Chancellor, or appointed in other bills
Beathan Vale: I would be more comfortable with appropriating a budget
for the Chancellor to spend, — allowing th echancellor to return
with a sepcial request if more money is necessary
Beathan Vale: still a blank check on “all duties of the offi ce”
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, isn’t that the case here?
Dnate Mars: As I was reading that, that is what is stated
Beathan Vale: Pat – I don’t think so
Patroklus Murakami: the exec spends money it’s been allocated??
Beathan Vale: that depends on the definition of “moneys held by the
Chancellor”
Patroklus Murakami: i think the only monies held by the chancellor
can be ones the RA approves
Beathan Vale: If that is a limit to a RA approved budget, I don’t
have a concern — but if the Chancellor, as head of state, is deemed
to hold all moneys (as superviser of the Treasurer) I have a problem
Patroklus Murakami: aah, i see your point beathan
Jon Seattle: Ah, could the Chancellor spend donated money?
Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂
Bromo Ivory: Well I would propose that we put in the right words
Bromo Ivory: and then bring it back.
Pelanor Eldrich: I don’t honestly think any change from the status
quo was intended in this regards by Dnate.
Pelanor Eldrich: *regard
Bromo Ivory: I agree –
Bromo Ivory: thats not th eintent
Beathan Vale: I would propose to amend “held by the chancellor” to
“appropriated by the RA for use by the Chancellor”
Bromo Ivory: I would second that
Dnate Mars: I agree
Patroklus Murakami: that’s a good proposal, ty beathan
Patroklus Murakami: so dnate, that’s taken as a friendly amendment?
Dnate Mars: yes
Patroklus Murakami: ok, great 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: any more comments? or should we move to a vote?
Dnate Mars: There is also the part that requires a State of the CDS
by the chancellor in March and Oct.
Bromo Ivory: Are we adding Beathan’s changes?
Patroklus Murakami: yes bromo. they’ve been accpeted by dnate
Dnate Mars: yes, it is a friendly amendment
Bromo Ivory: OK cool
Patroklus Murakami: let’s move to the vote
Beathan Vale: second
Patroklus Murakami: pls state ‘yay’ or ‘nay’
Pelanor Eldrich: Section ii) makes it clear that a civil servant
reports only to an immediate manager. There is no head of civil service.
Beathan Vale: yay
Patroklus Murakami votes nay
Bromo Ivory: yay
ThePrincess? Parisi: yay
Jon Seattle votes nay
Leon Ash votes nay
Patroklus Murakami: ok. that falls as the 2/3 majority was not reached
ThePrincess? Parisi: welcome michel
Michel Manen: hello all
Michel Manen: sory to be late
Bromo Ivory: Hi Michel
Pelanor Eldrich: back to the drawing board…
Bromo Ivory nods
Bromo Ivory: A shame
Patroklus Murakami: next. item 3, defining the CDS PCA
Jon Seattle: Hi Michel 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we hold a discussion around the issues
for this rather than taking a vote
Patroklus Murakami: but limit it to 20 mins
Michel Manen: hi jon
Patroklus Murakami: anyone care to jump in?
Beathan Vale: I would strike “all” from the last sentence — it is a
dangling reference
Bromo Ivory: Has this been altered to address the IP issue we talked
abotu last time?
Patroklus Murakami: no bromo. still trying to find some common ground
before redrafting 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: is the IP issue the primary issue we should seek
to solve here?\
Patroklus Murakami: ty beathan, we can take the final ‘all’ out 🙂
Beathan Vale: lol — important stuff 😉
Patroklus Murakami: np 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: let’s stick with the IP issue for a moment
Patroklus Murakami: one question i’ve been mulling over is whether
its’ necessary to define ‘the CDS’ in real world legal terms
Patroklus Murakami: or whether we should work with terms that
expresss our experience in SL terms
Beathan Vale: I see no necessity there — at least not yet — but it
can be done
Patroklus Murakami: there are advantages to RL non-profit status for
exampke
Patroklus Murakami: *example
Bromo Ivory: I suppose it really means what is the purpose of this
thing. What are we trying to accomplish – that should determine the
wording.
Moon Adamant: but also costs implied
Patroklus Murakami: but some significant downsides
Michel Manen: and permanent officers for the RL company
Bromo Ivory: I am not sure what we are trying to do with this amendment
Jon Seattle: Well, depending on the location it need not be expensive.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale: no need for permanent officers
Michel Manen: we’ll change them every 6 months?
Moon Adamant: indeed Michel – then perhpas we’d have a duplication of
power structures?
Beathan Vale: MM — yes, why not?
Patroklus Murakami: three things bromo, as i explained on the forums
– IP, mission statement, and something else!
Michel Manen: lol
Beathan Vale: only need a permanent agent for service of process —
which hopefully will never matter
Patroklus Murakami remembers the third thing was foreign relations..
Bromo Ivory: I would say the IP is the most important thing …
though I do prefer somethign else.
Bromo Ivory: I am very wary of misison statements
Bromo Ivory: ingeneral
Michel Manen: and i of “foreing” relations
Bromo Ivory: <--- too much corporate experience Patroklus Murakami likes 'mission statements' 🙂 Michel Manen: relations with other communities etc Dnate Mars: Do we really want this as a part of the constitution? Patroklus Murakami: but then i've had very good experience of them Moon Adamant: well, i would say a definition of the CDS which is inclusive and clear is handy for all contractual things the CDS holds Moon Adamant: not only IP... but think also even... the social pact Bromo Ivory: http://www.netinsight.co.uk/portfolio/mission/missgen.asp Bromo Ivory: MIssion statement generator Moon Adamant: lol Patroklus Murakami: if we have no clear statement of what the cds is, and we all hold different ideas of what it may be in our heads, but never discuss them, isn' that a potential problem? Bromo Ivory: I think it has the potential of being used as a blunt instrument to stifle different ideas. Patroklus Murakami: ty bromo. i know that they can be awful. but they can also be very helpful if they're ones that everyone buys into Bromo Ivory: Thank goodness we don't have anyone in the room that would do that! 🙂 Dnate Mars: But do we need to define it down to a t? or can we get away with just a loose idea? Patroklus Murakami: if they truly express what we're about Bromo Ivory: Well it will only express what we think CDS is about - Patroklus Murakami feels the need for a workshop with virtual 'post it' notes... Michel Manen: smiles Moon Adamant: but Bromo, isn't taht what matters? Jon Seattle: Well, this seems pretty open to me. Can someone offer an example where this would be lmiting? a lot could be done under "a themed yet expressive community." Bromo Ivory convulses slightly at the flitting memory of a "team building" exercise more or less what Pat describved Moon Adamant: after all, we are free to associate under the UDHR Bromo Ivory: Well, Jon it either ends up meaningless or useful - and useful means it is limiting. Bromo Ivory: "useful" menaing effective Jon Seattle: Yes, but not narrowly limiting in any way that I can see. Jon Seattle: Can you offer an example? Bromo Ivory: Oh an "expressive community" means all things as long as we are expressing things. So it is so open as to mean very little in practice. Beathan Vale: Example — "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Bromo Ivory: If we were to define the CDS as a group that elects an RA for instance Bromo Ivory: Yeah Michel Manen: yes beathan 😉 smiles Moon Adamant: but isn't that inside the 'self-governed community'? Beathan Vale: Happens to be the most useless part of the US Constitution Moon Adamant: if we are self-governed, it implies that we choose how to be self-governed Beathan Vale: Moon — that depends on how we define "self" in self- governed — even Caledon is self-governed ... Patroklus Murakami: how about 'we aim to be number 1 or number 2 in every market we operate in'. that worked well as a mission statement for General electric (i think) Beathan Vale: lol Jon Seattle: Well, " purpose is to enable ownership of high-quality public, private, and open-space land" seems to be a bit more to the point. We would not it that case be an organization for selling magazine subscriptions. Patroklus Murakami: it's clear and unifying and gives a purpose to what ppl are doing Bromo Ivory: True - that works - though it did force them to jettison businesses that were profitable Bromo Ivory: And effective - and therefore limiting Patroklus Murakami: yes, every statement does cut off some options. but so does saying we want to be a democracy Jon Seattle: Indeed. Patroklus Murakami: it closes off autocracy, for example 🙂 Beathan Vale: agreed Bromo Ivory: Didn't stop the USSR Bromo Ivory: But yes Bromo Ivory: in general Patroklus Murakami: well, i said we'd limit it to 20 minutes. but thank you for the contributions Patroklus Murakami: one thing that ppl have managed to clarify for me is that we need to separate out the enravelled issues Patroklus Murakami: so let's pursue those separately on the forums Patroklus Murakami: next item. electoral reform discussion Patroklus Murakami: who would like to come in? dnate, you posted an interesting incremental proposition on the forums Patroklus Murakami: would you care to elaborate on that? Dnate Mars: oh, yes Dnate Mars: Well, it seems that people just think of it unfair that only a select few of the people get to seclect who is actually on the RA Patroklus Murakami nods Beathan Vale: Dnate — why should members of the SP have a say in who represents CARE? Dnate Mars: so, instead of basically getting rid of the current system, we tweek it so that which ever party you pick as first you get to rank the members Dnate Mars: this will allow the people that don't have a party to be able to select who within the party will be repesented by them Beathan Vale: OK — that makes sense to me Bromo Ivory nods "Good idea" Yogeswari Padar: does this - in essence - eliminate the need for party membership? like open primary voting in the US? Dnate Mars: Since, I will assume that people within the parties will vote for their own parties, that won't change Bromo Ivory: Or ... not! Beathan Vale: Yog — membership is still required to qualify for the ballot Dnate Mars: people in the party will still be the ones that set the adenda Jon Seattle: I like the idea, but I have one worry. Could this be used for strategic voting. For example a "stelth" candidate? Yogeswari Padar: okay, so only those who want to run for office would have to identify with a faction Dnate Mars: and are the ones that can run for RA seats Patroklus Murakami: yoge, i think faction members woudl still select the candidates. and tehy would still need to be faction members to stand for election Bromo Ivory: Would Dnate be willing to write up a proposed amendment? Yogeswari Padar: just like open primaries in the US - candidates are the only ones that need to be enrolled Jon Seattle: Say everyone in Party A puts party B first, but votes in a person who supports party A's agenda. Yogeswari Padar: i understand, pat, thanks for the clarification Dnate Mars: I can, and will have it posted this week... I meant ot write it up for this week, but it didn't happen Michel Manen: this is not the US -parties here dont have millions of members- jsut 6 or 8 - Q^ at most in CAREs case Michel Manen: 16 Yogeswari Padar: i know, michel, i'm just trying to put the proposal in some kind of context Beathan Vale: Can we table this discussion until we have the 3rd proposal? Michel Manen: weell its the worng context Yogeswari Padar: thank you Bromo Ivory: I would second the tabling. Michel Manen: np 🙂 Jon Seattle: yes, a good idea. Dnate Mars: the ranking of the parties still doesn't change, but the selection of the members changes just slightly Patroklus Murakami favours tabling until we have the proposal on the table Patroklus Murakami: so to speak Jon Seattle: Yes, lets table Patroklus Murakami: 'table' means different things in the Uk and US 🙂 Yogeswari Padar: thank you, pat Patroklus Murakami: ok. let's move on Jon Seattle: Lets schedule this for further discussion when we get the third proposal. Patroklus Murakami: item 5. the CARER commission Patroklus Murakami: anyone care to begin? this has been discussed before but we didn't achieve a conclusion Beathan Vale: I object to the wording of paragraph 7 — which imposes a duty on the RA "to adopt" legislation in each of the defined areas -- I also object to the 4 areas as being both over-inclusive and under-inclusive Bromo Ivory: I would propose to change the name from CARER to "Revitilization" Patroklus Murakami: ty bromo Patroklus Murakami: beathan, could youi elaborate on your issues with the remit? Jon Seattle: What part would NGOs play in this? Not everythng should be the domain of government. Patroklus Murakami: hi brian Brian Livingston: Hi all, sory I'm late Jon Seattle: Hi brian 🙂 Patroklus Murakami: glad you could make it Bromo Ivory: HI Brian! ThePrincess? Parisi: hello brian Sleazy Writer: hi Brian 🙂 Leon Ash: Hi Brian Patroklus Murakami: we have a full house. hurrah! Bromo Ivory: Hey could we re-vote on the Executive before we break? Bromo Ivory: Since Brian is here? ThePrincess? Parisi: yes Michel Manen: indeed Brian Livingston: Could I ask for a quick votign recap? Patroklus Murakami: no bromo. we can't revote. but brian can cast his vote now or later Jon Seattle: Bromo, what would that acheive? Patroklus Murakami: the vote has been taken Michel Manen: 3 3 brian Pelanor Eldrich: Puts it on the record. Bromo Ivory: Oh I just would like ot get Brians vote fo rthe record, thats all - I don't care how we do it. Dnate Mars: I think they just want his vote on record Michel Manen: yes Patroklus Murakami: that's fine. brian's vote will be a matter of record Patroklus Murakami: but we have taken that item and are now on other agenda items Michel Manen: well brian should be allowed to vote at this session Pelanor Eldrich: I think the main CDS objection BTW is the "populist" election of Chancellor. If I understand correctly. Beathan Vale: Let's move on Brian Livingston will vote via the forumTo be honest, I need to see what the evolution fo teh debate was before I can make my final dcision Michel Manen: lol Patroklus Murakami: ty brian 🙂 Brian Livingston: And ammendments and so on Bromo Ivory: lol Patroklus Murakami: i respect your wishes Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded. Beathan Vale: exactly right, BL Patroklus Murakami: would someone wish to continue discussion of the 'revitalisation (formerly CARER) commission' bill Patroklus Murakami: we were discussing remit, and the role of ngos Beathan Vale: is this proposal redundant with the "Minister of Culture" Bromo Ivory: This bill is to establish a comission to find out what the citizens would want Pelanor Eldrich: I don't think this freezes out NGOs I think it mandates that the gov't interact with them. Bromo Ivory: Yes Leon Ash: Not particlurarly, it is late over here 🙂 Michel Manen: and how they could get involved and participate Moon Adamant: but the models of interation are already set, at least in teh Guild's case Beathan Vale: Bromo — then why define the agenda so completely -- Moon Adamant: can't comment about MoCA, since i don't recall their charter Pelanor Eldrich: true, we have a guild charter. I'm unclear of the cases of the CDSTA and the Museum. Bromo Ivory: Well it defines the time period, and that the comisison will present a report. Beathan Vale: and — I think that the Minister of Culture position is too new to assess — so it is premature to form a commission to discuss areas with the Minister's remit Leon Ash: I am sorry members, but I have to call it a night Michel Manen: this is no way conflicts with the Guild Bromo Ivory: And that the Chancellor will chair the comission Jon Seattle: I would worry that "interact" could turn into attempts to direct, I would want to avoid that. Jon Seattle: Night Leon 🙂 Beathan Vale: within the remit I mean Moon Adamant: Michel, i think it duplicates the Guild Bromo Ivory: Good night Leon Leon Ash: Have a good evening everyone 🙂 Sleazy Writer: good night ThePrincess? Parisi: night lion Beathan Vale: Moon — yes, in large part Patroklus Murakami: bye leon. ty for coming 🙂 Michel Manen: well , we have a differnt view then 😉 smiles Pelanor Eldrich: I feel the Guld already handles community education. Moon Adamant: you must see that all citizens can join the Guild and raise points for discussion Dnate Mars: The NGOs were set up to avoid the goverment involvment Pelanor Eldrich: I feel the CDSTA handles business and commericial dev. Dnate Mars: if you force the government on them, they really aren't NGOs anymore Pelanor Eldrich: The PIO handles Marketing and Tourism Jon Seattle agrees with Dnate Bromo Ivory: Except this isn't forcing the governemnt on them ... the Bill is prettyy minimal - Pelanor Eldrich: and the Museam handles Arts etc. Moon Adamant: if the citizens aren't already doing so, why do you think they would join your comission? (speaking always for teh Guild) Dnate Mars: and the guild handles the sim planning and education Pelanor Eldrich: So I wonder if this just isn't a case of doing charters or maybe just handing out some grants. Bromo Ivory: Well couldn't the comission determine that? Dnate Mars: it is not so much what people want, it is that people don't wnat to host or come to events Bromo Ivory: and then the RA approves it or not. Michel Manen: because thi commission will actively go out htere and contact citizens ans ask for their input and opinions and needs and listen to them and take advantage of their experience and skills Dnate Mars: we have events, we had a clothing class, 1 person showed up Pelanor Eldrich: 🙁 Michel Manen: which goes to show how bad we are at communicating Michel Manen: and building a community Patroklus Murakami: hmm. we've seen a fairly weak response to the call for input on citizenship (no offense intended). do we really have the resources for another commission at the same time? Moon Adamant: hmmm, isn't the decision of a citizen joing the guild a sufficient active attitude already? Beathan Vale: MM — no, it shows that we prioritize actities here with activies in RL — and RL often wins out Bromo Ivory: You could say that Beathan Pelanor Eldrich: I kinda see this as a way of the RA handing out grants and maybe getting the occasional NGO activity report. Michel Manen: well BV - other communties manage to do much more than we do Bromo Ivory: But it is hard to dothat without finding out for sure - reduce speculaiton to fact. Jon Seattle: Yes, I think some activities do get a larger degree of participation. Moon Adamant: but the NGOs report at RA request Bromo Ivory: And the comission ins't replacing anything. Moon Adamant: teh Guild for instance, is generally present for reporting Moon Adamant: no, Bromo, it is duplicating Moon Adamant: duplicating work Bromo Ivory: When things aren't going well, it makes sense to go out there and figureout what is wrong and what is right. Michel Manen: well i dont see that Moon -sorry Patroklus Murakami: well, not *all* NGOs 🙂 The CDS Traders is totally non-governmental for example Bromo Ivory: The NGO's aren't doing that at all, Moon Patroklus Murakami: if the RA insisted on the CDSTA coming to a meeting, i'd boycott it on principle! LOL 🙂 Bromo Ivory: LOL! Bromo Ivory: And what about this proposal would do that? Pelanor Eldrich: Like I said, I kinda see this as: hmm we need more business. Let's set aside some budget for biz grants and see if the CDSTA wants it. If they are apply and are granted they can report once a month to the RA and tell us what they're up to. Beathan Vale: I don't see the utility of talking about having activites here — if we want activities, we should arrange them Moon Adamant: that is surely an idea, pel - the report being condition to teh grant Beathan Vale: This proposal does not do that — a proposal to create a civic holiday calendar would do so Pelanor Eldrich: That's how it works in the US. I've worked for many a non-profit NGO. Dnate Mars: Well, we also have a PIO for once, maybe before we start yet another commition, we wait and see what they do? Jon Seattle: I can't see that centralized decision making will impove the quality of the decisons made by the NGOs. I really don't think the government necessarily has better ideas. Patroklus Murakami: good point dnate 🙂 ty Michel Manen: the key question is how do we get more people invloved and participating? what is tyour proposal on this , moon? Beathan Vale: if CARE thinks the Guild is ineffective, it should propose legislation to reform athe guild, not legislation to talk- talk-talk Bromo Ivory shkaes head Michel Manen: we never said the Guild is ineffective Pelanor Eldrich: That's a good point Jon. It's opt in. Moon Adamant: Michel, i believe that people must be free to decide getting involved or not Pelanor Eldrich: right Brian Livingston agrees with Moon Michel Manen: lol well we dont give them much of a reason to get involved right now Moon 🙂 Bromo Ivory: And no one is forcing anyone to do anything now or later Moon Adamant: they know that the Guild has an open door, and the ammount of work being put together is large Patroklus Murakami: hmm. that seesm unfair michel Pelanor Eldrich: I think this could be a way to offer some gov't resources (cash) to NGOs in the form of grants while maintaining a strict NGO separation. Bromo Ivory: But it would be nice to find out what we could do to have better participation here instead if having things in other places in SL Michel Manen: is it? look at our attendance records - 1 attendee for the t shirt course.. Moon Adamant: at each meeting, we get volunteers for putting up more and different work Patroklus Murakami: well, MM there are many other kinds of involvement Michel Manen: well the Guild is not the issue here Dnate Mars: Why don't we want 3 months and see what happens, we have a new sim, a new PIO, and a bunch of events coming up Pelanor Eldrich: Right the guild is doing fine... Patroklus Murakami: i don't think you are being fair about the level of community involvement here Beathan Vale: well — MM — we are not a SL skills college — we are a self-governed communit y-- low attendance in an activity outside our primary project is not an indication of failure Patroklus Murakami: this meeting is pretty well attended, for example Dnate Mars: if by then we think we need to look into it again, why don't we. Th erest of the commitions will be done and people would be more liely to join a new one Beathan Vale: Pat — exactly Michel Manen: lol well what is our primary project? big can of worms there 🙂 Patroklus Murakami: much better than in previous terms i would guess Beathan Vale: MM — t-shirt classes ain't in it — whatever it is Moon Adamant: maybe some people just do NOT want to do things? Michel Manen: well i disagree Michel Manen: it not the tshort part- its the community and participative part that counts Yogeswari Padar: this is a problem all over SL, not just in the CDS Patroklus Murakami: could i suggest that the proposers take this away to reconsider and redraft? Bromo Ivory: I will withdraw this and resubmit it after citizenship is complete Moon Adamant: surely... but that for you, me, and everyone here present Michel Manen: not in Roma.. not in Caledon.. i could go on Pelanor Eldrich: We're a democratic self governing community in Second Life. Bromo Ivory: Clearly we are not ready for this Michel Manen: smiles Patroklus Murakami: with some tweaking, and consideration of timing issues. it may well be worthh returning to Bromo Ivory: I agree Moon Adamant: i'd suggest that Rose's questions she put at people in Anzere are very revealing re: this subject Patroklus Murakami: ok. let's move to item 6 Bromo Ivory: and I am hopeful that we want to examine ourselves and see if we can do more for our citizenry and boost participation Moon Adamant: or better, the answers she got Bromo Ivory: at that time Pelanor Eldrich: It's a gentle prodding to a, b, and c Patroklus Murakami: who would care to introduce the bill to re- establish the judiciary commission? Beathan Vale: the defined scope is awful — begs all the questions -- Bromo Ivory: I will Patroklus Murakami: ty bromo Bromo Ivory: But I would like to have Michel speak to this Bromo Ivory: if that is OK Patroklus Murakami: sure 🙂 Bromo Ivory: MIchel ... take it away Bromo Ivory: 🙂 Michel Manen: Well i think this is a very delicate and important matter, as we have seen last term Michel Manen: and i would like to address this not at the tail end of a meeting but next time Michel Manen: so if you all agree to table until next time.. Beathan Vale: I move to table until the next term of the RA Beathan Vale: next elected term — not merely next meeting Patroklus Murakami: well, depending on the agenda, you may end up with the tail end again... Jon Seattle: Seconds 😀 Michel Manen: well pat you out together the agenda Patroklus Murakami: but, if everyone's happy to table it.... Bromo Ivory: Table until next meeting? Michel Manen: yes lol Beathan Vale: no — table until next elected term Michel Manen: hahaha Bromo Ivory: Yes until next meeting Jon Seattle: I prefer Beathan's proposal. Patroklus Murakami: very funny beathan Brian Livingston: The vote was proposed... Beathan Vale: can we vote my proposal first Brian Livingston: And seconded... Patroklus Murakami: now, now 🙂 Patroklus Murakami: on the motion ot table until next week, please vote Patroklus Murakami: *to Bromo Ivory: yay Beathan Vale: nay Jon Seattle: nay Brian Livingston: nay Patroklus Murakami votes aye ThePrincess? Parisi: yay Patroklus Murakami: a tie. how unfortunate! Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂 Bromo Ivory: If only the Chancellor could break it .... Michel Manen: hahah Dnate Mars: lol Beathan Vale: vote on lang-term table — see if we get a clear result Michel Manen: i was going to say Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂 Dnate Mars: I don't want to Patroklus Murakami: i'm afraid it needs a vote in favour to table it so it can't be Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂 Bromo Ivory: Zombie bill Patroklus Murakami: so we can discuss it now or.... Patroklus Murakami: not! Pelanor Eldrich: I have to say this looks more and more like RL democracy this term... Beathan Vale: move to table until next elected term of the RA Jon Seattle: I second that again. Patroklus Murakami: oh my, beathan. you are a one! Patroklus Murakami: well, we can vote to table this particular bill until next term Bromo Ivory: Withdraw Bromo Ivory: Resubmit in a few weeks Patroklus Murakami: but, of course, if it were to be put in slightly different words Beathan Vale: can't withdraw with a motion on the table Pelanor Eldrich: registers his disappointment at he idea of abdicating RA responsibility. Patroklus Murakami: it could still be submitted to a meeting 🙂 Michel Manen: do we want to do this in a hurry right now when people must leave? Patroklus Murakami: i'm going to allow bromo to withdraw his proposal Patroklus Murakami: and resubmit at this discretion Michel Manen: ty Bromo Ivory: Yes Patroklus Murakami: that concludes our business for today Bromo Ivory: Clearly this stirs up a lot of bad blood Dnate Mars: uh Patroklus Murakami: any final comments before we adjourn? Dnate Mars: what about the Chancellor questions? Patroklus Murakami: so sorry dnate Dnate Mars: this is the last meeting of the month Patroklus Murakami: my fault entirely Patroklus Murakami: i didn't register this was the last meeting of the month Patroklus Murakami: dnate and i agreed via email that the last RA meetingof the month Patroklus Murakami: would we 'chancellor meeting' Dnate Mars: and being as I can't make the next one, It needs to be done today Patroklus Murakami: as mandated by the constitution Pelanor Eldrich: What are the specific CSDF objections to the Chancellor PCA? And, at least *vote* on the establishment of the Judiciary Commission, not shuffle off the heavy lifting until next term. Patroklus Murakami: do we have any questions for dnate in his official capacity? Dnate Mars: first, can I say a few words? Patroklus Murakami: please do 🙂 Bromo Ivory: How will we advertise this in the future? Brian Livingston: Dante in the platz with a sandwichboard sign? Brian Livingston: Dnate* Patroklus Murakami: bromo, it will be on the agenda in future. this was an oversight on my part Dnate Mars: First of all, I would like to thank the great job that Rose is doing as PIO Patroklus Murakami listens to dnate Dnate Mars: we will be having events again, which is a great thing Jon Seattle listens to Dnate also Moon Adamant: cheers for Rose! Bromo Ivory: Hooray! Dnate Mars: Second, I have appointed Pel as the new system admin for the web portal Bromo Ivory noted the full schedule Rose put together for today Beathan Vale: yes — excellent work Dnate Mars: he will be handling most of the work involved from the chancellor's office Moon Adamant: congrats Pel 🙂 Jon Seattle: yay Pel! Dnate Mars: and lastly, I have appointed Michel as my Deputy. He will be acting as an advisor to me Pelanor Eldrich: Working very closely with Jon and the Guild. Pelanor Eldrich: er Web coop Dnate Mars: (end) Moon Adamant: oooh congrats as well Michel Michel Manen: Thanks 🙂 Beathan Vale: Dante — what is Michel's portfolio? Dnate Mars: He is acting to me as a sounding board, along with what he has tried to do with change already in the CDS, I felt he was a good pick to act in this regard Michel Manen: I will be working with Dnate and discuss all issues pertaining to the Excutive before Dnate makes final decisions Beathan Vale: ok — thanks Dnate Mars: he has give a lot of good advice already on the Exec bill that I have been working on Patroklus Murakami: dnate. what progress have you made with the establishment of a government question hour? Michel Manen: thank you dnate Dnate Mars: That has been lacking, because I am still missing times that people can be availible for the meeting Moon Adamant: hmmm something i don't understand though Moon Adamant: is deputy a public office? Dnate Mars: I hope to have it ready to go by the 2nd meeting next month Michel Manen: yes Patroklus Murakami: who do youi need information from dnate? i think you have my infor nad that of most RA members Beathan Vale: it is not a RA created office — but it is an office the Chancellor can establish Dnate Mars: but not all yet and the SC Dnate Mars: I am sorry that I have fallen behind on that Dnate Mars: it is on my todo list this week Patroklus Murakami: ok. if we could establish it soon, it would be good Dnate Mars: any more questions for me? Patroklus Murakami only appears to be typing Patroklus Murakami: any other questions? Bromo Ivory: Not form me Dnate Mars: anyone here want to ask me anything? Bromo Ivory: Oh, this snuck up on us Brian Livingston: I'm good 🙂 Bromo Ivory: so ... what will you do to promote this in the future? Dnate Mars: Events are the main thing I am focusing on this trem Dnate Mars: also, I want to use the infohub that we have as a place we can get the word out about events. There are always a few people hanging out there, but we need to update the area a little Dnate Mars: WB pat Sleazy Writer: My question to Dnate: Please don't postpone the Gov't question hour, this is week 4 Patroklus Murakami: sorry about that Michel Manen: We wil both work on this to get it off the ground ASAP Jaen DeCuir: hola Michel Manen: hola jaen Patroklus Murakami: ok, any further questions for dnate? Dnate Mars: as always, if anyone ever has any questions for me, please feel free to IM or e-mail me Gallego Ibanez: hola Gallego Ibanez: excuse jaen im working Gallego Ibanez: i cant talk now Jaen DeCuir: y aqui que pasa Patroklus Murakami: dnate. could you post your announcements here on the forums? Patroklus Murakami: about appointments etc? Dnate Mars: I was thinking about that, but where? Moon Adamant: Executive thread? Jaen DeCuir: ok Patroklus Murakami: there's a section for executive announcements Dnate Mars: oh? Patroklus Murakami: i'll check to see if you have posting perms Patroklus Murakami has been trying to relinquish admin controls on the boards but to no avail... Dnate Mars: yes, I will post them then. Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂 Dnate Mars: just need access 😉 Patroklus Murakami: if there's nothing else, i propose we adjourn ThePrincess? Parisi: amen Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂 Patroklus Murakami: 🙂 Dnate Mars: remember, last meeting every month, unless otherwise stated! Sleazy Writer: OK, have a pleasant evening everyone. Patroklus Murakami: ty everbody. we are adjourned Moon Adamant: thanks Pat and all 🙂 Bromo Ivory: See you guys! The meeting closed at 13:50 Linden time.

Permalink.

Meeting on 2007-09-02
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Yogeswari Padar has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: bromo has sent his apologies
Patroklus Murakami: Let’s begin
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: item 1 -reports
Patroklus Murakami: I had hoped that bromo could give a report on the progress of teh citizenship commission. but he can’t be here today
Patroklus Murakami: has anyone else attended and able to give an account of the story so far?
Patroklus Murakami: /notes we’ve lost theprincess once more
Sleazy Writer: I don’t think there has been a meeting in the past week, — right?
Patroklus Murakami notes
Patroklus Murakami: good point sleazy 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: so not much more to report
Patroklus Murakami: i’d encourage everyone to attend the next meeting of the commission on sat 8 sept at a time i can’t recall in inspiration park, colonia nova
Sleazy Writer mumbles: that a lot is going on on the forum — so I hope everyone will have his/her say there.
Patroklus Murakami: indeed. there’s also the forum debate
Sleazy Writer: 10 am SLT
Patroklus Murakami: ty sleazy 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ok, item 2 IP rights/ head of state
Patroklus Murakami: this was originally bound up with the ‘Defining the CDS’ PCA
Beathan Vale: before we move to vote items — can we approve Bromo’s 7-day vote request?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, bromo’s request is approved
Jon Seattle: wb Princess
Patroklus Murakami: there has been some good forum discussionn on how we might solve the IP rights issue
Patroklus Murakami: i think it was michel who suggested something like a ‘board’ structure of the LRA, Deand and Chancellor
Beathan Vale: I proposed something like that structure too
Jon Seattle: Yes, I wonder what the differences are?
Patroklus Murakami: one advantage of this is that the board could select one of it’s members to act on behalf of the CDS in, for example, agreeing contracts for builds etc
Patroklus Murakami: this seems to be the basis on which we could resolve this issue
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we coudl discuss this now and see how close we are to a consensus
Patroklus Murakami: ?
Beathan Vale: well — having a board might not be enough — we might need some legal person capable of holding property
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, would you like to say what you were thinking of?
Beathan Vale: this could be created informally — a partnership of persons — or formally, a nonprofit or somesuch
Beathan Vale: I think that we should create a nonprofit — and have the board be the board of the nonprofit corp
Patroklus Murakami: aah, i’m taling SL-only. whether this needs a RL nonprofit or not is another question
Patroklus Murakami: *talking
Beathan Vale: the problem is the IP property is RL property — and the owner must be a RL entity capable of owning property
Beathan Vale: so I don’t think we can parse SL from RL in this case
Patroklus Murakami: why must that be the case beathan?
Sleazy Writer wonders why it needs to be about ‘IP property’ and not just: ‘licence to use under conditions XXX only’. WHy is the latter not sufficient?
Moon Adamant: i am sorry everyone, must run off – have a good meeting! 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: bye moon 🙂
Sleazy Writer: too bad – bye 🙂
Beathan Vale: well — if we ignore the issue — we will be implied, as a matter of law, to be creating a RL partnership anyway
Yogeswari Padar: good bye moon
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Leon Ash: Bye Moon
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye moon
Sleazy Writer still wonders about the thing from 10 lines ago
Patroklus Murakami: i’m still not clear why RL nonprofit status is necessary
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, that is IP property
Jon Seattle: and liciencing
Sleazy Writer: yes, but why is a licence to use not enough?
Beathan Vale: Pat — it isn’t — it is just a possible solution
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, that is by in large what we are talking about.
Beathan Vale: .I think that a license would also be legally sufficient
Jon Seattle: But licience to whom?
Begin forwarded message:
Sleazy Writer: Beathan > if a licence is enough, does that mean we wouldn’t need a legal person?
Patroklus Murakami: the contract is between ‘Joe Builder’ and ‘Head of State’ on behalf of the CDS surely that’s enough?
Sleazy Writer: only a ‘CDS person’
Beathan Vale: but it must be a permanenet license — and again, the license must be to some entity that is capable of owning property — because a license is a RL property interest
Sleazy Writer: Why didn’t you say so when the MoCA guys made agreements ‘on behalf ‘ of MoCA? 🙂
Jon Seattle: Welcome Brian 🙂
Sleazy Writer: (Without a legal person)
Patroklus Murakami: is an avatar not capable of holding the property right?
Brian Livingston: Hi, sorry for my tardines. Traffic was awful.
Jon Seattle: Pat, there are RL use rights.
Beathan Vale: Pat — that might be sufficient — but it has risks — it does not create a real owenrship right in the CDS — only in the person — so we are relying on the good faith of the licensee person
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: hi brian, welcome?
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, welcome!
Sleazy Writer: hi Brian 🙂
Yogeswari Padar: lol brian
Patroklus Murakami: the reason i’m questioning you beathan is that i’d prefer to keep this ‘inworld’ if at all possible. if we can’t resolve this issue without recourse to RL i wonder about the feasibility of our project 🙂
Brian Livingston: Hehe
Sleazy Writer: Beathan: Software licences talking about ‘the end user’, don’t describe a particular legal person .. just ‘the end user’.
Sleazy Writer: afaik
Sleazy Writer: ‘Whoever uses it must abide to: blah blah”
Beathan Vale: the end user in such case is always a legal person — an indivual or a purchasing corp or partnership
Jon Seattle: Pat, why would having CDS be a RL entity make our project any less feasible?
Jon Seattle: The CDS is already a RL association.
Beathan Vale: Jon — yes — I think it would qualify as a partnership or somesuch
Brian Livingston: Hmm
Patroklus Murakami: as bromo mighht say ‘eek, the rise of the augmentationists!’ 🙂
Beathan Vale: lol
Patroklus Murakami: if we can make our agreements etc internally consistent within our virtual world, that’s preferable in my opinion
Sleazy Writer: If I make my house available with a “for public CDS land only” licence, and Dnate uses it in the 3rd sim, why does that need an extra legal entity?
Jon Seattle: Well, I’ve never see the CDS as a role-playing sim. (Though we might do that from time to time.)
Patroklus Murakami: you don’t have to RP to be ‘immersed’ though, do you?
Beathan Vale: Sleazy — it might not — but there are questions as to whether “the CDS” can own anything
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, you may well do so, but it does not protect you from someone selling your house.
Sleazy Writer: why are irrevocable, transferrable (etc) licenses not enough?
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, how do you protect those rights?
Begin forwarded message:
Sleazy Writer: This can be in a license: see CC .. how doyou think M$ protects against re-selling of software?
Beathan Vale: Sleazy — becasue you can’t give a license to something that can’t own property =-=- for instance, a dog can’t own a license
Beathan Vale: brb
Sleazy Writer: My license would be for anyone I sold it to for 1 L$, but use would be restricted to “public CDS land”
Sleazy Writer: i mean: taylor it in a crative way .. it’s possible .. LL license it definitely taylored to their needs
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. let’s just follow the idea through for a moment. assuming we need ‘legal personality’ for the CDS in the real world, what woudl that entail?
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, it would not mean a thing unless it was licenced by a RL entity.
Sleazy Writer: Jon > I am a RL legal entity
Patroklus Murakami: we would need to register the CDS with a RL jurisdiction
Patroklus Murakami: wb beathan 🙂
Sleazy Writer: wb
Jon Seattle: Pat, actually in the US registration is optional
Brian Livingston: Hehe, Trying to sway the CSDF Beathan?
Jon Seattle: But in this case it would be a good idea.
Patroklus Murakami: and our board (however defined) would need to declare their RL identities
Beathan Vale: Pat – no — we would be deemed a partnership or somesuch — but we would have less control over over the details of our association and such
Beathan Vale: generally only the registered agent and original incorporators would have to declare their RL identities
Leon Ash: Does anyone really know the legals behind this? There seems to be a lot of speculation about it all?
Beathan Vale: Leon — I am a lawyer
Patroklus Murakami: okay, that’s intriguing
Leon Ash: Beathen, what is the ‘reality’ then?
Jon Seattle: Justice also had said that we would be considered an association, another RL Lawyer.
Patroklus Murakami: so we could get away with just the ‘founders’ making their identities known
Beathan Vale: yes — we would be — but our rights and duties would be imposed on us by stattue — and I think that we would be better off fixing the details themselves
Beathan Vale: Pat — and one permanent registered agent
Beathan Vale: Jon — also — the international nature of our membership would make the issue more complicated — if not defined in some formal association
Patroklus Murakami: i think the CDS looked at ‘non-profit’ status some time back (in order to get discounts on sims i think) and concluded it was too costly and complicated – and we woudln’t get eh discount! woudl this cost us much?
Beathan Vale: but — I don’t think this is a “do-or-die” thing — not at all
Jon Seattle: Pat, I think that former research was in a very different context.
Beathan Vale: Pat — I think that analysis only looked at whether the benefit form LL would be enough justification — I don’t think IP issues were involved
Patroklus Murakami: yes, you’re right. IP issues weren’t considered then
Leon Ash: Beathan, does it matter which jurisdication this takes place under?
Begin forwarded message:
Beathan Vale: Leon — yes — it would matter — both because differnt law would apply and because of cost issues
Beathan Vale: but — I think as a practical matter we should select a jurisdiction whee we can get: 1. free legal work and 2. a willing resident registered agent
Beathan Vale: I could do both in WA State — but others might fo the same (Rose in Texas, for instance)
Patroklus Murakami: could you explain the special position of the ‘registered agent’?
Beathan Vale: in US jurisdictions, the gegistered agent is a known person who is a point of contact for the govt and for service of legal papers
Sleazy Writer: Would that give you equal power to the others form the ‘board’/trio
Beathan Vale: service on the registered agent is service on the entity
Beathan Vale: the registered agent is frequently not a baord memeber — and frequently has no power in running the corporation
Patroklus Murakami: so, in our situation – sudane 🙂
Beathan Vale: in fact, many companies hire “registered agent companies” to provide outside services
Beathan Vale: PAt — it does not apply in our situation — it would only apply if we were formally incorporated
Beathan Vale: right norw — I think we are are probably a partnership of all CDS citizens — and service on any citizen might be enough — which is kind of scary
Beathan Vale: of course — the idea that we could be sued is already scary — and, I think, unlikely
Patroklus Murakami: i assume we are subject to CA law first and foremost. any differnces there that you’re aware of?
Beathan Vale: yes — there are some difference — I am not licensed in CA, but the transaction attorney in my firm is
Patroklus Murakami: where did Bragg and Stroker Serpentine file their cases?
Brian Livingston: Bragg was in PA orginially, if I recall correctly
Beathan Vale: I don’t think that we are necessarily subject to CA law — just because LL is hqed there should not do it
Beathan Vale: LL can be sured anywhere because it does business everywhere
Beathan Vale: sued I mean
Beathan Vale: we can probably be sued anywhere one of our citizens lives, at the moment — although incorporation might cahnge that
Patroklus Murakami: so stroker’s case is probably more meaningful for us, in that he’s sueing another SL avatar?
Beathan Vale: I might be filing my own test case on that one — for theft of $50 from me by a cash-stripping object
Patroklus Murakami: i’ll be interested to hear how that works out
Sleazy Writer: interesting 🙂 too bad you lost the money ..
Beathan Vale: but I might not — fairly busy — and it is only $50 — although the Lindens were useless when I file dthe reprot, including IM transcripts admitting the theft
Beathan Vale:

shrug

Sleazy Writer: admitting? /me looks stupified!
Patroklus Murakami: well, perhaps we should draw the discussion ot a close?
Beathan Vale: yes — it is stupifying — I am really down on the Lindens atm
Beathan Vale: lol
Begin forwarded message:
Beathan Vale: yes — move to continue matter for further discussion and research
Patroklus Murakami: ty for your contributions, that was very illuminating (at least for me)
Jon Seattle: Indeed
Patroklus Murakami: i think we are near consensus on the ‘SL/CDDS side’ of things
Beathan Vale: yes
Patroklus Murakami: so we should continue that discussion on the forums and develop a proposal
Beathan Vale: second
Patroklus Murakami: this other issue we have covered in more detail today does probably need more research
Patroklus Murakami: but i think we’ve got further than we ever have before on this
Patroklus Murakami: let’s continue the discussion as beathan suggests, agreed?
Brian Livingston: aye
Jon Seattle: Yes, please.
Beathan Vale: aye
Leon Ash: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: next. item 3. mission statement
Patroklus Murakami: this is the other component of hte ‘defining the cds’ PCA
Patroklus Murakami: now, despite bromo’s aversion to ‘mission statements’ 🙂 i feel we’re close to agreement here
Sleazy Writer: has something bene proposed?
Patroklus Murakami: shall we try to resolve this on the forums?
Patroklus Murakami: no sleazy, but we’re almost there
Jon Seattle: yes, if we can.
Patroklus Murakami: we just need to go through a few drafts to get it right
Patroklus Murakami: an iterative process
Sleazy Writer: Is it something general and easily acceptable, or is it something more detailed that will help the CDS move in a certain direction?
Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have comments they want to make now?
Beathan Vale: mostly general and acceptable
Sleazy Writer: P > Not now
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i’ll take that as my cue to move on 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: item 4 was carried over from last week
Sleazy Writer: J > ty for the notecard, i c
Patroklus Murakami: we were hoping to have Dnate’s electoral reform proposal to consider
Patroklus Murakami: but i guess he’s been to busy
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we carry this over for a further week
Patroklus Murakami: any objections?
Jon Seattle: That makes sense.
Brian Livingston: *nods*
Brian Livingston: No objections here
Patroklus Murakami: let’s do that then
Patroklus Murakami: we’ve come to the end of today’s agennda!
Brian Livingston: Wow… that’s gtta bea record
Sleazy Writer: with Judiciary bills!
Sleazy Writer: without!
Jon Seattle: 😀
Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we adjourn and use the extra hour productively in whatever manner people choose:)
Brian Livingston: Seconded
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Jon Seattle: I agree with the first part of that. Does it have to be productive?
Beathan Vale: aye — and bye
Beathan Vale: lol
Patroklus Murakami: LOL! no jon, as you wish
Sleazy Writer: ty + bye
Leon Ash: Night everyone
Brian Livingston: heh
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye now
Jon Seattle: ‘night and thanks 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty everyone, we are adjourned
Brian Livingston: Bye all 🙂
The meeting closed at 13:5 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 165, 41)

Meeting on 2007-09-09
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to being recorded
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: well i am concerend with having a discussion on the issues in the agenda without the Citizenship commission Chair and 4 out of 7 RA members absent and only one non-offficial citizen present
Beathan Vale: I see no reason not to have a discussion
Dnate Mars: We can discuss at any time
Patroklus Murakami: read the RA meeting procedures michel. no reason not to have a discussion
Jon Seattle: Yes, discussion is allowed 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we’ll leave the citizenship commission to one side
Dnate Mars: there just won’t be any voting today
Michel Manen: well sure but not one that would initiate a vote
Patroklus Murakami: we can discuss at a future RA meeting
Michel Manen: ok
Michel Manen: as long as the voting is triggered and sent to the forums …
Michel Manen: is *nOT *
Patroklus Murakami: there’s one item on the agenda today – electoral reform
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: we were waiting for dnate’s proposal in order to have all three on the agenda for discussion
Dnate Mars: (sorry)
Beathan Vale: MM — I’m not prepared to vote on this issue anyway …
Patroklus Murakami: dnate, would you like to introduce your proposal for discussion?
Michel Manen: great 🙂
Dnate Mars: Well, as I posted on the forums, I don’t thing going to the STV is really a good idea
Dnate Mars: the biggest thing I heard this last election was that people that weren’t in a faction were unable to select exactly who was going to fill the RA seats in the party they voted for
Dnate Mars: basically, in many cases, the people that got to actually be on the RA were selected by just a few people
Dnate Mars: so, in order to correct this, I propose a change that will allow the vote to rank the people within the party that is selected as a first place vote
Dnate Mars: Another complaint that I have heard in the last few elections is that people didn’t want to have to rank all the partyies
Dnate Mars: so, I also included a change that allows a voter to only vote for the parties they want, and to give what would be a 0 point vote to multiple parties
Dnate Mars: (done)
Beathan Vale: I like the first proposal — but not the second
Beathan Vale: I think that there is a benfit in forcing voters to chose “lesser of two or more evils” — as well as picking a favored party
Patroklus Murakami: pls carry on beathan
Michel Manen: i have a question – what is the current CSDF position on this? it seems to be changing as thee wond blows….
Michel Manen: wind
Beathan Vale: if we simply allow a rejection vote — then we will not be able to determine grades of dislike — only grades of like
Dnate Mars: It was a very tough call for me to make, but I thought that people shouldn’t be forced to vote for parties they despise
Beathan Vale: I think this is more a matter of education — voting a faction 3rd is not necessarily a vote for the party — may be a vote against\
Dnate Mars: But, at the same time, I agree with you Beathan
Beathan Vale: perhaps, if this is a concern — we should give each citizens 4 positive and 4 negative votes — and let them vote as they see fit — allowing ranking of negatives and positive
Beathan Vale: but that seems too complicated
Jon Seattle: This changes the role of the election from that of both an internal party election and a CDS election, to just a CDS election. Its a subtile but important change.
Dnate Mars: We don’t want to over do it
Patroklus Murakami: “forcing voters to choose between teh lesser of two evils” that doesn’t sound very democratic to me. why not give voters the choice? sounds like you dont’ trust them beathan
Beathan Vale: I think that the basic borda count works — and works well — for initial vote — although vote for person is a good incremental change
Beathan Vale: Pat — its not that I don’t trust them — it’s that I want to know electoral information I would not know if a flat rejection were possible
Michel Manen: thats not what elections are for beathan- take a poll to get that info
Beathan Vale: a vote is not unfree just because it is constrained — all votes other than write-ins are constrained by the ballot
Patroklus Murakami: but you would force voters to choose parties they would otherwise have not chosen
Beathan Vale: MM — a vote is the ultimate poll
Patroklus Murakami: that’s hardly democratic
Michel Manen: but it hasa very different purposes from a poll – that of forming a decision-capable, democratically elected assembly
Beathan Vale: Pat — it is democratic — people get to chose — they just have bounded choice — every democracy offers boudned choice
Dnate Mars: You do make a really good point Beathan, and I don’t believe that it is any less democratic
Patroklus Murakami: what a bizarre argument beathan!
Beathan Vale: MM — we can form such an assembly in many different ways — the current system is one — if all we want is to have a system that works, let’s keep what we have
Patroklus Murakami: you force voters to choose parties they don’t want to support, ‘because it’s good for them’?
Beathan Vale: Pat — no
Michel Manen: LOL
Patroklus Murakami: it’s a very patrician view of electoral politics
Dnate Mars: well, it does force people to understand what all the parties stand for
Michel Manen: one might even say paternalistic ;_
Patroklus Murakami: surely the option to vote ‘no’ is as important as the choice to vote ‘yes’?
Dnate Mars: it is the only want to be able to rank all of them is to understand what they all stand for
Beathan Vale: I think that the borda count tells us not only which parties the voters like hte most, but which they dislike the most — perhaps I should not have said “forced” — but rather should have said that there is information from the ranking which is important is assessing true voter preference
Beathan Vale: which faction a voter ranks last is as informative as which faction a voter ranks first
Dnate Mars: Very true
Patroklus Murakami: but beathan, you are ‘forcing’ them to vote for a party they would not willingly choose
Michel Manen: well again… that can be ver informative indeed and can be found out in opinion pols – the lection is not just an information providing exercise, but a government -enabling one
Beathan Vale: if we are worried about the way the numbers work, we can jsut subtract one from our current vote total — first =2; second =1′ third =o; forth = -1
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, that’s not the same thing at all
Beathan Vale: then a person can put a party third without voting for it
Patroklus Murakami: it would not allow ppl with genuine multiparty prefernces to make a valid vote
Dnate Mars: I disagree MM, an election does tell the elected people what the people in gerneral want
Dnate Mars: and at the same time, it will tell them what they don’t wnat
Patroklus Murakami: the choice is to rank all of the parties (as some may wish to) or not. the electoral system needs to cater for both
Michel Manen: what is the current CSDF position? is it still STV?
Jon Seattle: Michel, what is your point!
Michel Manen: i have no point
Patroklus Murakami: MM. if we had a quorum, you’d find out 🙂
Michel Manen: is that so hard to answer?
Michel Manen: i am just asking what your position is
Dnate Mars: why does it really matter? We are discussing what is best for the CDS, right?
Beathan Vale: ha — truth at last ! 😉
Jon Seattle: Indeed Dnate.
Michel Manen: well sure – and we want to know where the CSDF stands on this
Michel Manen: is that an unreasonable question? smiles
Beathan Vale: MM — the CSDF has made a proposal and have not withdrawn it
Beathan Vale: so — yes, it is an unreasonable (or at least an unreasoned) question
Michel Manen: sure – but are they still supporting it? smiles
Patroklus Murakami: rather than play ‘guess the position’, perhaps we could discuss the proposal?
Michel Manen: given forum remarks from the LRA one may doubt it
Michel Manen: sure
Beathan Vale: MM — that is called seeking compromise — a skill I wish CARE would learn from the CSDF
Patroklus Murakami: indeed beathan 🙂
Michel Manen: but i still wannt to know whether the CSDF members still support their own position as drafted and introduced 😉
Patroklus Murakami yawns
Dnate Mars: This is going no where, I am out of here
Michel Manen: pillow Pat?
Michel Manen: or double expresso>?
Jon Seattle: I have a concern, actually a small one, about this bill. My concern is that it could be used by one party to intefeer in the internal deicions of another party about candidates.
Patroklus Murakami: as i’ve said on the forums
Dnate Mars: I will continue on the forums
Patroklus Murakami: i think that dnate’s proposal is a good compromise
Beathan Vale: PAt — as do I — with reservations as to the need for change at all
Patroklus Murakami: between full-blooded STV, and our current position
Jon Seattle: Yes, I tend to agree.. though I would like some changes.
Patroklus Murakami: it’s clear there are substantial reservations among many citizens about a change to STV
Beathan Vale: Jon — perhaps, but not likely — rather, I think it is more likely to require that the factions consider the will of independent votes — which is a good thing
Beathan Vale: Jon — especially independent voters inclined the support the faction
Patroklus Murakami: dnate’s proposal would take us forward and deal with some of the reasons for us putting forward STV
Michel Manen: ok. thanks for clearing up where you and the CSDF currently stands- which is very far away from your draft bill
Beathan Vale: MM — that is not the CSDF position — that is the acceptable compromise — a very different thing
Beathan Vale: you seem to be making a political virtue of unreasonable pigheadedness
Michel Manen: i love you too beathn 🙂
Sleazy Writer: give him the rose then
Michel Manen: smiles for him i have pink one 🙂
Beathan Vale: sadly — I cna’t usually smell roses — all I smell is the decay — fitting actually in our political system
Patroklus Murakami: well, unless there are any other comments on the proposals under discussion…
Michel Manen: i don t deny that its a compromise- all i do is point out that this compromise is worlds away from the CSDF original position as introduced not long ago
Beathan Vale: MM – -that is called reaching the same goal by a compromise path
Beathan Vale: it is the destination, not the journey — that matters
Jon Seattle: Michel, I don’t think we see it that way. It seems to us to meet some of our goals.
Michel Manen: ah thats a differnt matter beathan
Michel Manen: the same goal is certainly not reached 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the CSDF has always made a virtue of compromise in the best interests of the CDS
Beathan Vale: hear hear
Patroklus Murakami: we did that for three terms with a DPU government
Patroklus Murakami: and we continue in the same spirit
Michel Manen: ah yes.. the invertebrate gambit.. smiles
Patroklus Murakami: we’re prepared to talk to anyone and listen to their ideas
Patroklus Murakami: and we’ve been remarkably successful, from opposition, in achieving our goals
Beathan Vale: MM — well, CARE seems a bit snakelike — venomous and all backbone
Michel Manen: grins
Patroklus Murakami: but we do not wish to railroad our opinions through, and we can’t as a minority party
Patroklus Murakami: so we seek compromise
Beathan Vale: yes
Patroklus Murakami: watch and learn michel 🙂
Michel Manen: how does this acheive the same goals as STV PAt?
Beathan Vale: so — can we table these proposals for further discussion — perhaps a drafting of a compromise combined bill?
Patroklus Murakami: it’s a step forward michel. it takes us on from where we are now
Patroklus Murakami: that’s a good thing
Michel Manen: ah wait- CARE’s proposal also includes a porposal on the LRA’s election
Patroklus Murakami: it doesn’t have to be ‘revolution or bust’
Beathan Vale: MM — I like that idea — but I think that a secret ballot for internal RA positions is undemocratic — all RA actions should be open to public scrutiny
Beathan Vale: that includes selection of LRA
Michel Manen: well it will be made public after the votes are taken
Patroklus Murakami: that rider on the CARE bill is unacceptable to us
Michel Manen: lol how shocking
Patroklus Murakami: it’s not really connected with electoral reform
Patroklus Murakami: and it’s a poor idea
Michel Manen: yes it is:)
Beathan Vale: agree with Pat as to disconnect
Michel Manen: lol
Patroklus Murakami: the current system is preferable. it gives us an assured answer that corresponds to teh public vote
Patroklus Murakami: the lead member of teh lead faction becomes LRA
Beathan Vale: PAt — not necessarily — it allows a minority party to lead the RA just because it has a plurality
Patroklus Murakami: the cARE proposal would have us disappear into smoke-filled rooms for a week or two
Beathan Vale: that does not really coincide ot public vote
Patroklus Murakami: to cook up a deal
Patroklus Murakami: like the chancellor election currently
Beathan Vale: Pat — that part is true — that is the part I don’t like about the proposal
Patroklus Murakami: the RA would be rudderless for at least a week
Patroklus Murakami: what if the parties are unable to form an agreement?
Patroklus Murakami: your proposal would stall the RA from the outset
Beathan Vale: hmmm ….
Beathan Vale: good point
Patroklus Murakami: it’s clear you understand the proposal is weak and lacks substance
Patroklus Murakami: it’s why you attached it to a bill you know we care about – electoral reform
Patroklus Murakami: and made it your price for CARE support
Patroklus Murakami: unsurprisingly, we didn’t find that attractive
Beathan Vale: well — I have to leave soon – can we call it a day?
Beathan Vale: I have a brief due on Tuesday
Patroklus Murakami: just a moment beathan
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess is back online
Patroklus Murakami: i’m asking if she can join us
Patroklus Murakami: but, it would appear not
Patroklus Murakami: bromo, brian and leon have sent their apologies so I expect we will not reach a quorum
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess is also unavoidably detained
Patroklus Murakami: i propose we adjourn
Beathan Vale: second
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Jon Seattle: Aye, les adjourn
Jon Seattle: *lets
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: ok, we are adjourned
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 185, 178)

Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
Patroklus Murakami: notecards for today’s meeting are in the box
Yogeswari Padar has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: the wooden box i should say
Patroklus Murakami: let’s get started
Patroklus Murakami: i’ve had one apology for absence from bromo ivory and a request for 7-day voting
Patroklus Murakami: so we will do that 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i hope leon will join us but i suggest we begin
Patroklus Murakami: we have one item on the agenda – electoral reform
Patroklus Murakami: i had hoped to get reports on the progress of the citizenship commission and on prep for the 3rd sim
Patroklus Murakami: but perhaps we should schedule that for next time and then ppl have time to prepare?
Dnate Mars: We are moving along nicely for the 3rd sim, just a little behind where we had hoped
Patroklus Murakami: does that sound sensislbe?
Dnate Mars: yes
Patroklus Murakami: oh, we lost theprincess 🙁
Dnate Mars: oh, can I make an announcement before we start?
Dnate Mars: (she is rebooting)
Patroklus Murakami: pls do dnate
Patroklus Murakami: let’s give her a moment
Dnate Mars: Just to remind everyone octoberfest starts THIS Friday!
Dnate Mars: Also, Tanoujin Milestone is the new Caretaker of the sims
Patroklus Murakami: congrats tan 🙂
Dnate Mars: that is all
Tanoujin Milestone: i want to thank for the confidence
Brian Livingston: cool! Congrats Tan!
Yogeswari Padar: congratulations, tan!
Tanoujin Milestone: ty 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: let’s give theprincess another minute or two to rejoin us
Dnate Mars: brb
Patroklus Murakami: wb theprincess
Patroklus Murakami: we waited for u 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you
Dnate Mars: k
Patroklus Murakami: we’re about to consider item 1 electoral reform
Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to make clear, for the CSDF, that we withdraw our proposal
Patroklus Murakami: we intend to support dnate’s compromise text
Beathan Vale: So it is between CARE and the chancellor?
Patroklus Murakami: those are teh two proposals left
Beathan Vale: an Wu Wei of course
Dnate Mars: It is just my idea, not from the exec office
Patroklus Murakami: indeed, ‘do nothing’ is the third option
Beathan Vale: Wu wei means “do nothing”
Patroklus Murakami: at our last meeting we seemed to have some agreement on dnate’s proposal but the qn of ranking all the parties was still contested
Patroklus Murakami: what are ppl’s views on that issue now?
Beathan Vale: I hae come around and support the full legislation
Dnate Mars: I for one will go either way on this part
Patroklus Murakami: ok. i was looking at beathan when i asked teh qn!
Dnate Mars: 😉
Patroklus Murakami: so that’s clear now
Patroklus Murakami: i propose we vote on the CARE proposal
Dnate Mars: thePrincess, anyquestions?
Beathan Vale: has the transcript been posted so thePrincess can see the last discussion?
Jon Seattle: I second the bill so we can vote.
Patroklus Murakami: not to my knowledge. tho it has been requested, twice 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: its ok
Beathan Vale: and Brian wasn’t there either
Beathan Vale: Brian — are you ready on this issue?
Patroklus Murakami: we’re voting on whether to take the vote on teh CARE bill now. i vote aye
Beathan Vale: yes on taking a vote (no on proposal)
Jon Seattle: yes on the vote (only)
Patroklus Murakami waits for theprincess, brian to cast their vote
Brian Livingston: Sorry, nay
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Brian Livingston: Oh, on voting, err, I vote aye to vote
Brian Livingston: nay for the actual vote
Patroklus Murakami: ok. we can proceed to the vote on the CARE bill. ty brian 🙂
Beathan Vale: nay
Patroklus Murakami: i vote nay to the bill
Brian Livingston: nay on the bill
Jon Seattle: votes no on the CARE bill
Dnate Mars: don’t we only need a motion to vote and a second?
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Jon Seattle: Dnate, we had that. I seconded.
Patroklus Murakami: dnate, we had that a moment ago
Beathan Vale: are we holding a 7 day vote for Bromo and Leon?
Patroklus Murakami: the bill falls
Patroklus Murakami: tho we are holding a 7 day vote for bromo and leon
Dnate Mars: sorry, I am confused with who is voting for voting and voting on the bill itself
Beathan Vale: unanimonous vote to vote — 4 to 1 against on CARE billl
Patroklus Murakami: the bill has more than 3 votes against so cannot pass as it requires a constl amendment
Patroklus Murakami: so, on to dnate’s bill
Dnate Mars: but a 7 day vote is required, for the record
Patroklus Murakami: we had a good discussion on this last week
Patroklus Murakami: but some were unable to make the meeting
ThePrincess? Parisi: nods
Patroklus Murakami: and, sadly, the transcript has not been posted to the wiki yet
Brian Livingston: On a side note, were any votes held for bills?
Brian Livingston: l;ast week
Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have any qns or comments on this?
Beathan Vale: no — no quaroum
Dnate Mars: no
Brian Livingston: Ok, thanks
Beathan Vale: quorum even
Patroklus Murakami: no brian, no votes 🙂
Beathan Vale: and even the right to discuss was challenged from the gallery 😉
Brian Livingston: I’ve haven’t any questions
Beathan Vale: ThePrincess? — any questions? want to review the transcript?
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Beathan Vale: does anyone have a trasncript — I dont
Dnate Mars: I don’t either… can you post it now Pat?
Dnate Mars: or at least notecard it?
Patroklus Murakami: i can make one and put it in the notecard dispenser
Patroklus Murakami: but it’s quite long
Patroklus Murakami: we can’t really wait for everyone to read it!
Beathan Vale: I move to call for a 7 day vote on this — everyone can vote after reviewing transcrupt
Brian Livingston: seconded
Dnate Mars: ok, but the ones that want to vote now can, correct
Dnate Mars: ?
Patroklus Murakami: k, it’s in teh box
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, one small issue
Jon Seattle: I think everything is seven day.. we can register our vote here, but others can vote via the forum.
Patroklus Murakami: 7-day voting is for those absent. not those here
Beathan Vale: right – I agree
Patroklus Murakami: so, we at least must cast our votes in this meeting
Patroklus Murakami: i’m ready to vote on this. is everyone else?
Beathan Vale: yes — second
Jon Seattle: I second
Jon Seattle: (third 😀 )
Patroklus Murakami: brian, theprincess, are u ready to vote on dnaate’s proposal?
Brian Livingston: Indeed
Brian Livingston: I was just waitign for the vote sicne it was seconded already :p
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok
Patroklus Murakami: let’s vote then 🙂
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: on dnate’s proposed electoral reform bill
Jon Seattle: Is this the vote to vote, or the vote on the proposal?
Patroklus Murakami votes aye (to the bill jon)
Brian Livingston: Aye for the bill
Jon Seattle: yes (on the bill)
Beathan Vale: aye on the bill
Patroklus Murakami waits for theprincess to vote
Beathan Vale: the Princess can vote afer reviewing last weeks transcript, yes?
ThePrincess? Parisi: i need to do that
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you beathan
Beathan Vale: wonders if thePrincess will continue to thank me after she reads what I said about CARE last week — lol
Dnate Mars: heh
Jon Seattle: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: no but i can dealiwth you later
Beathan Vale: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: you laugh
Brian Livingston suggests hidign in the old guild building space beneath the platz
Beathan Vale: humor is my favorite defense mechanism
ThePrincess? Parisi: ill find him
Dnate Mars: so, I guess we have to wait for the last 3 votes to come in
Beathan Vale: yep
Dnate Mars: but, does theprincess have to vote now, since she is present?
Patroklus Murakami: that depends on which way theprincess votes now dnate 🙂
Beathan Vale: no
Dnate Mars: or does it just have to be a quarum vote?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, she does beathan, dnate. i explained that a moment ago
Brian Livingston: That’s a loophole I’d assume, becuase if she, or any of us were to drop offline during or right before a vote, then we’d be entitled to the 7 day
ThePrincess? Parisi: well i need to read this
Beathan Vale: I thought my motion on that point carried
Patroklus Murakami: the 7 day vote is for absent members
ThePrincess? Parisi: and yes i can crash at any momnet
ThePrincess? Parisi: its a bit laggy
Brian Livingston: Doesn’t that just encourage absenteeism if someone wants to delay the vote?
Patroklus Murakami: it is very laggy
ThePrincess? Parisi: dont make me vote i didnt read the thing
Beathan Vale: ah — procedural problem — proposal made, seconded — but vote on taken
Dnate Mars: can she abstain for now?
Beathan Vale: under rules — later votes are ineffective because a pending motion had not been resolved
Patroklus Murakami: any vote cast in teh meeting is final dnate
Beathan Vale: technically, we should go back — vote on motion on allowing 7day vote for people present — then revote
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, beathan but that’s not allowed
ThePrincess? Parisi: fine i vote nay
Dnate Mars: it was unfair that the transcripts where not availibel before the meeting
Brian Livingston: So question… if ThePrincess? just disconnected now, accidently or not, before the vote is cast, what then?
Beathan Vale: Well — it would be allowed in every RL Congress in thew world
Patroklus Murakami: the 7-day vote is for aabsenst members not present ones
Dnate Mars: she voted nay
Beathan Vale: Pat — but their was a procedural motion on the floow
ThePrincess? Parisi: i just voted
Patroklus Murakami: in any case. we now have theprincess’ vote
Beathan Vale:

shurg

OK — moot
Brian Livingston: But it is a procedural issue we may want to consider for the future
Patroklus Murakami: so this goes to 7-days now
Patroklus Murakami: we have RA meeting procedures on the wiki. but it may be wise to reconsider them for isssues such as this
Patroklus Murakami: we have no further items on teh agenda today. i move we adjourn
Beathan Vale: secpond
Jon Seattle: I second
Dnate Mars: what about the RA size bills?
Patroklus Murakami: the csdf one is withdrawn along with teh electoral reform PCA
Dnate Mars: are we going to table the CARE one?
Patroklus Murakami: coudl we?
Dnate Mars: if that is the vote
Patroklus Murakami: i woudl prefer to. it’s had virtually no discussion
Dnate Mars: actually, all you need is a motion and a second
Brian Livingston: Motion to table teh CARE RA size bill pending further discussion
Jon Seattle: I move to table it
Jon Seattle: well, second 😀
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Dnate Mars: there you go, tabled
Beathan Vale: nay to table
Patroklus Murakami: adjourn?
Jon Seattle: sure.
Beathan Vale:

shrug

OK — aye to adjourn
Dnate Mars: great, off I go to grandmothers house!
Yogeswari Padar: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: i know a nice wolf
Dnate Mars: lol
Dnate Mars: bye
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
Tanoujin Milestone: bye 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty evreyone. we are adjourned
The meeting closed at 12:51 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 165, 41)

Meeting on 2007-09-23
Jon Seattle: Please click the roman wine jar for the adgenda, and the recorder to give your permission for the transcript
Jon Seattle: Two items on the agenda are last minute, and so we will just begin discussion this meeting.
Bromo Ivory: OK
Jon Seattle: Pat, as you know is away.
Bromo Ivory nods
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Jon Seattle: Hi Bromo, Princess, Tan, Moon, and Brian
ThePrincess? Parisi: hello jon
Bromo Ivory: HI Jon
Jon Seattle: I see beathan approach, so lets wait a moment.
Bromo Ivory: OK
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok
Beathan Vale: sorry Brian
Jon Seattle: Hi Beathan
Moon Adamant: hi beathan 🙂
Jon Seattle: Please click on the wine jar for the agenda, click the recorder, etc.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: The first item on the adgenda is the revised citizen commission report. Bromo, would you like to begin by presenting that.
Jon Seattle: Oh, and do you have a notecard version, or the URL?
Bromo Ivory: I don’t have a notecard version – so hereis the URL for anyone to read it –
Bromo Ivory: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1373
Bromo Ivory: The report says more or less what was done to gather information, what the issues were and the relative support for the various ideas.
ThePrincess? Parisi: leon is online
Bromo Ivory: We had a forum discussion as well as 2 in world meetings at different times
Bromo Ivory: the different times were to catch as many differnt time zones as we could – one was early on a Saturday and the other was a bit later
Bromo Ivory: Did everyone get the URL?
Bromo Ivory: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1373
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Leon Ash: Hi Everyone. Sorry for being late. Was downloading latest update
Bromo Ivory: IN short – what was found is that there was no unanymity on reform ideas, there were more peopel for some sort of reform than those that would not like to see reform.
Jon Seattle: Hi Leon,
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: The most popular in number of people supporting was the citizenship fee with no land reuqirmeent – but that also was the most polarizing and the one raising the most fears –
Jon Seattle: Leon, Please click on the wine jar for the agenda, and the recorder 🙂
Leon Ash: That was exactly what I was looking for thanks Jon. Already clicked recorder
Bromo Ivory: Less radical ideas were to have some sort of residency requirement of some kind, or some sort of record fo service
Bromo Ivory: And the other one was that a group reform allowing gorups of 4 or less peopel to buy land and get citizenship together
Bromo Ivory: I beleive it will be possible to have a form of reform that ec=ncompasses the desire of the populace as well as allay the fears detailed in the report.
Bromo Ivory: eom
Bromo Ivory: (Looks like we lost Princess to a crash)
Jon Seattle: Bromo, how would you like to see us procreed procedurally with this report? what shoud we do next?
Bromo Ivory: Well I beleive the RA needs to accept or reject the report
Bromo Ivory: And then we should have a RA group try to draft a inter-faction reform bill
Bromo Ivory: I would like to have one with 1 representative form each faction
Bromo Ivory: My personal feeling on the matter
Jon Seattle: Is there a need to discuss the acceptance / rejection before proceeding to the vote. Anyone want to adress that?
Bromo Ivory: Prioncess crashed
Jon Seattle: Is she one her way back?
Bromo Ivory: I dot’ know.
Leon Ash: Hi Sudane
Bromo Ivory: We shoiuld move on
Sudane Erato: hi… sorry
Bromo Ivory: though I would liek the courtesy fo a 7 day vote for her if she is experienceing technical difficulties
Bromo Ivory: Ah here hshe is
Jon Seattle: Bromo, please move that we vote
Bromo Ivory: I move we vote
Leon Ash: WB ThePrincess? 🙂
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: I second the motion
ThePrincess? Parisi: lost my cnnectino sorry
Jon Seattle: Everyone in favor of accepting the report, please say Aye.
Bromo Ivory: Aye
Jon Seattle: wb ThePrincess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: oops thank you jon
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Jon Seattle: anyone else? Shall we take a moment to review the report?
Beathan Vale: abstain
Jon Seattle: I found the report to be much improved, but I still disagree with the conclusion relative to the proceeding, so I will abstain as well.
Brian Livingston: I am not prepared to vote on this yet, so I am requestign a 7 day vote so I can properly read and analyze it before accepting or rejecting it
Jon Seattle: I accept Brian’s request.
Beathan Vale: I have reservations about the report — and disagree with the numbers, which do no coincide with my own review — but my reservations are not enough to merit rejection — but too much to merit a vote to accept
Jon Seattle: Any objections to seven day?
Bromo Ivory: None
Beathan Vale: It is useful information — and can be used as such regardless of a formal acceptance
Jon Seattle: Good. And, I agree that it is very useful.
Jon Seattle: Are we ready to go on to the next item? I would like to introduce it if so.
Leon Ash: Please do
Bromo Ivory nods
Jon Seattle: I added this to the agenda at the last moment. It is, however, a very important decision. I suggest we not vote on it this week, but I would like to get the discussion underway.
Jon Seattle: The New Guild has requested that we answer the three questions listed, in order to proceed with the new sim planning
Jon Seattle: The question really, is should this new sim work like our other sims, that is with plots sold to individuals, or under a new model suggested by Sudane that has only NGOs and public functions using the land. I wonder if Sudane might give us a summary on the first quesiton of the three.
Sudane Erato: well/…
Sudane Erato: my intention in offering the proposal
Sudane Erato: was to address a considerable disagreement which was occurring over the land use
Sudane Erato: and to try and re-focus the discussion on the “benefit” of the new sim to the existing community
Sudane Erato: i think it did that
Sudane Erato: i simply offerred the proposal to help… i am surely not committed to it… i am committeed to whatever the community decides
Jon Seattle: Well, your proposal does have both advantages and costs for the whole community, so apart from dealing with disagreements in the Guild, what are some of those?
Jon Seattle: After all our real goal here has to be to decide if this is a good idea for the body of citizens
Sudane Erato: the advantage is that it emphasizes that the sim is whiolly for the benefit of the entire community… it would not be a living space for anyone
Sudane Erato: it would also i feel adhere most closely to the origibnal spirit of the proposal by Rose, which i theink everyone acknowledges was only a sketch
Sudane Erato: the disadbantages is that of course, everyone would have to share in its cost
Sudane Erato: and i think i tried to show how that might be experienced as not as severe as it seemed to be
Sudane Erato: but
Sudane Erato: what it actually would be is still unclear
Sudane Erato: i.e…. how much peoples fees would rise
Jon Seattle: You had an estimate. Also if we went this way, what are some of the ways the land might be used?
Sudane Erato: my suggestion was that the land be used for any of the proposed public uses… for NGO’s, such as the monastery or the MoCA
Sudane Erato: and for community sponsored activities, like sports
Sudane Erato: but most importantly…
Sudane Erato: the sims binds together the community in a way we have talked about since CN was first created
Sudane Erato: many people have expressed about that
Jon Seattle: And I would not connects the sims with the great distance in height in a way that could not be done by planing CN next to NFS.
Jon Seattle: *note
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: exactly
Bromo Ivory: I do ahve a question
Jon Seattle: Bromo, go ahead 🙂
Moon Adamant: i would like to address the RA too
Bromo Ivory: I voted on the original proposal, and I did not envision making it 100% public land.
Bromo Ivory: So … would we need to go back to the people since hte direction was polled form the people initially?
Bromo Ivory: Especially since this would raise tier fees a fair amount
Bromo Ivory: (eom)
Jon Seattle: I think the RA would have to decide if we should go ahead with such a poll. Moon, you have the floor.
Moon Adamant: thank you
Moon Adamant: The New Guild is, as you know, a NGO whose action relies in technical support to the community
Moon Adamant: among other things
Moon Adamant: we have started this sim process, by mandate of the RA, six months ago or close
Moon Adamant: it started with a popular consultation, as referred, and the Guild has been developing teh winning proposal
Moon Adamant: so it’s been a clear process
Moon Adamant: we feel though now that new data that wasn’t envisaged at the beginning of teh process has been now presented
Moon Adamant: namely, the possibility that the community sponsors a sim which will not be for sale
Moon Adamant: and thus we are asking the RA to clarify our current course
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: by the three questions proposed and which were voted at the Guild’s meeting
Sudane Erato: i agree
Moon Adamant: hopefully i was clear?
Jon Seattle: Moon, I think so.
Sudane Erato: while i did make the proposal, it was in response to a bitter and divisie dispute about the use of the new sim
Sudane Erato: and i agree with Moon that the RA must make this decision
Moon Adamant: indeed
Bromo Ivory: I have a quick staement – and I am looking at the forums right nwo
Moon Adamant: mind though that since we have been able to construct a proposal, i feel, which can be a comprmise between the several ideas
Moon Adamant: possibly it will need more detailing still – but i don’t see people arguing anymore, but see them proposing modifications to teh proposal
Jon Seattle: Well, my hope is that the RA will act for the good of the community. There are two questions that we must resolve: 1. do we want to consider this option at all, that is do we see the beifits here, and 2. can we afford those benifits, that is will the communuty be willing to pay the higher fees for the project.
Beathan Vale: does anyone know the status of our current sales — do we have prospective citizens waiting for an open parcel to purchase — or do we have unsold properties because there is no interst?
Jon Seattle: Sudane?
ThePrincess? Parisi: its very difficult to buy in these sims
Bromo Ivory: 1 CN parcel is currently for sale, no NFS parcels are currently posted for sale
Moon Adamant: in all cases, whatever is teh decision of teh RA, the New Guild will continue providing the technical assistance
Beathan Vale: also — should we use the new sim to test some theory of citizenship — such as citizenship by membership in NGO or “adopt a plot”?
Sudane Erato: sorry
Bromo Ivory: Beathan – that is an interesting idea.
Sudane Erato: IMs
ThePrincess? Parisi: adopt a plot?
Beathan Vale: test it in a single sim — rather than opening it up — to see if it causes or solves problems — without exposing us completely
Beathan Vale: adopt a plot is Bromo’s proposal
ThePrincess? Parisi: i know
Beathan Vale: allowing us to use public plots as the basis for citizenship
Sudane Erato: there essentially no land right now
Beathan Vale: kk
Sudane Erato: althou that may change
Beathan Vale: that strikes me as a poblem
Beathan Vale: we need to make sure that we keep the immigration door open
Bromo Ivory: Sudane – how many deliquent properties will we have do you think?
Beathan Vale: under the current system — that means that we have to keep expanding residential plots
Sudane Erato: many 10
Jon Seattle: Are these plots that will be resold in the near future most likey?
Sudane Erato: i don’t know, hoestly
Sudane Erato: it will take a while to sort out with the new payment system
Bromo Ivory: (Sorry for diverting the discussion)
Jon Seattle: So, as beathan points out, one disadvantage to this proposal is that it means a hold on our population expansion for a while. I wonder if there are also in-between alternatives? Can we, for example, put half the sim under this system? Or would that be too difficult?
Sudane Erato: Jon, there is also not a great deal of new demand
Sudane Erato: i don;t think we are turning anyone away
Bromo Ivory: Yes, I htink trying some novel methods of citizenship and landholding in the new SIm given the situation
Sudane Erato: only existing residents who are frustrated from expanding
Bromo Ivory: Well when Asha was selling her land, she had been contacted by 2 people
Jon Seattle: Ah, I see.
Bromo Ivory: none were CDS citizens – anecdote for certain, but one example
Jon Seattle: I would like to do a quick non-binding poll if we can (pleae feel free to say undecided). Is this proposal of a public / NGO sim desireable apart from financial considerations? Just to see if we have the support to ask about the finances.
Jon Seattle: Remember this is not a bill.
Beathan Vale: is that desirable in general — or desirable in the current context of limited available residential lots for sale?
Jon Seattle: I think it is desireable given that we can come up with good uses for the land. Ah, Beathan, in all contexts other than fees.
Beathan Vale: I think we could turn part of the land into a “SL destination resort” — which might increase publicity and traffic in the CDS
Beathan Vale: I know that we are getting a lot of interest from folks passing our Monastery build on the ML
Jon Seattle: Brian, any comments?
Bromo Ivory: I do think that we would have a larger population if we would have more ways to allow it – though
Bromo Ivory: (sorry brian)
Jon Seattle: (sorry Bromo, was going around the room 😀 )
Bromo Ivory waits for tuen
Brian Livingston: In general, it is a interesting idea and solution to the issue of build density and such, but I do not think that residents will be willing to take on a 75% increase in land fees
Beathan Vale: I could set up a franchulate in one of my ML sims to increase residential land — especially if I had Guild help to finish some stalled projects
Moon Adamant: Beathan, we can discuss that 🙂
Jon Seattle: Bromo?
Bromo Ivory: I think we started the process by consulting our citizenry, and this is enough of a departure with large financial as well as positive implications, that I beleive we would have to affirm this change the same way
Bromo Ivory: another poll.
Jon Seattle: Yes, I would agree with that. The Princess?
Beathan Vale: I agree with Bromo — although I am concerned that that would slow down the build process — making all options far less desirable
Bromo Ivory: Yes, I agree that is the down side.
ThePrincess? Parisi: i agree that we need to have anohter poll make sure we are doing the right thing tho
Brian Livingston nods
Moon Adamant: i would perhaps ask to what point would that new poll would be binding?
ThePrincess? Parisi: the increas e in fees concens me and io really think ppl want to live on sims
ThePrincess? Parisi: and that if CNwas not residential at all no one would be here ever
Brian Livingston: By the same token, if we could manage to combine the public sim proposal with perhaps selling a portion of the available land (or leasing it) to NGOs to help reduce the impact on fees, it might still acheive the same end results, but with less impact on the reisdents financially
Jon Seattle: Well, it seems to me that there is enough support in this room to go on with considering the project. My next question though is the finances, Sudane you posted an initial estimate. What would it require to make that estimate more firm? it seems to me we would have to have that information if we were to do a poll.
ThePrincess? Parisi: im sorry but what about residential rentals
Brian Livingston: Rentals aren’t currently permitted under the covenents and in general woudl raise all kings of issues regarding citizenship, I’d assume
Brian Livingston: kinds*
Jon Seattle: Princess, we are now considering if we will have residental plots at all. Later on, if we deicide to sell plots, we can discuss if they can be rented.
Jon Seattle: I think Sudane may be afk.
Jon Seattle wants just a moment later
Beathan Vale: brb
Sudane Erato: sorry… 🙁
Sudane Erato: impossible afternoon
Sudane Erato: get a better estimate
Sudane Erato: that will depend entirely on how much land the NGO’s are willing to pay tier on
Jon Seattle: Well, lets ask the NGOs for an estimate and if they are interested
Beathan Vale: back
Sudane Erato: we know the monastery is interested
Sudane Erato: but not how much
Brian Livingston: Or run three sets of figures, 1 with 25% of land owned by NGOs, 1 with 50% and 1 with 0% owned?
Jon Seattle: Arria posted her interest in 2048 m2 I beleive
Brian Livingston: ALthough that is a lot of work :/
Sudane Erato: Brian, I could do that, yes
Moon Adamant: monastery will need 1/15 of teh sim
Sudane Erato: no… not so much
Moon Adamant: that is, around 1000 prims
Moon Adamant: resources here, not land
Beathan Vale: I think it might be above 1000 prims atm — hard to tell though with the sky squatters in the build zone
Sudane Erato: everyone needs more prims than they say they will need
Jon Seattle: Yes, of course.
Moon Adamant: ehehe true 🙂
Jon Seattle: Even if double that, it is a small fraction of the sim.
Brian Livingston: does that include furnishings and other similar stuff?
Brian Livingston: true
Moon Adamant: i think so
Jon Seattle: We should approach the MoCA and Guild for their suggestions.
Sudane Erato: it may be a small fraction, but please remember
Moon Adamant: The Guild currently holds two plots
Sudane Erato: that it was already the consensus
Brian Livingston: That sould free up soem room for more residential/commercial plots in NFS
Moon Adamant: one in Cn and another in NFS (the schule)
Sudane Erato: that the price of land be equalized between the 3 sims
Moon Adamant: if we remove teh schule from NFS, that area will need a redevelopment plan
Moon Adamant: we can take care of that, of course
Brian Livingston: Just for reference sake, how much land is that Schule on?
Moon Adamant: uh, i actually don’t know
Sudane Erato: two lagish city parcels
Brian Livingston: Okee, np, I was just curious as to how much wer were talkign about
Sudane Erato: largish
Moon Adamant: but it has more prims than the alloted?
Sudane Erato: maybe 400 sq meters
Sudane Erato: it shares in the City prim bank
Sudane Erato: like the Kirche
Moon Adamant: that’s what i thought
Brian Livingston: And MoCA, if interested, is on probably 500-600 m2?
Sudane Erato: or less, yes
Sudane Erato: and it too shares in the prim bank
Jon Seattle: So we will need to know how large a plot it would need to be self-sustaining. Lets do this, lets ask the Guild to conduct a survey of the NGOs for their potential land needs in the new sim.
Jon Seattle: And ask Sudane for a more accurate estimate (or conditional estimates)
Bromo Ivory: Would it make sense to have a public suburb?
Sudane Erato: kk
Beathan Vale: Bromo — yes — but the slope makes that difficult for this sim
Jon Seattle: Does anyone second that proposal?
Beathan Vale: second\
Jon Seattle: The proposal is to ask the Guild to conduct a servey of NGOs land needs under this proposal and to ask Sudane to prepare a (perhaps conditional) estimate for the cost of the proposal. If you support this please say “Aye”
Beathan Vale: aye
Brian Livingston: aye
Jon Seattle votes Aye
Jon Seattle: Bromo? Princess?
Bromo Ivory: Aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Sudane Erato: i am really very sorry… but i have to leave 🙁
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye sudane thanks fo rcoming
Jon Seattle: Thanks Sudane 🙂
Brian Livingston: Thanks Sudane 🙂
Sudane Erato: bye all 🙂
Jon Seattle: Shall we adjourn or go on?
Bromo Ivory: Bye Sudane
Bromo Ivory: I motion to adjourn
Brian Livingston: What is remaining on the agenda?
Beathan Vale: second
Bromo Ivory: and tbale the last point until next week
Brian Livingston: The Finanical Reporting bill, yes?
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Jon Seattle: Maks sense. If you would like to adjourn, please say aye.
Beathan Vale: looks like a good bill — but it is on for discussion only
Jon Seattle votes aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Brian Livingston: Mmm, best towait. Aye
Jon Seattle: We are adjourned.
Jon Seattle: See you all next week, and thanks!

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 185, 178)

Meeting on 2007-09-30
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: wow, full house 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
Kulla Abramovic: where are you friends?
Bromo Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: there’s a notecard with the agenda in the dispenser on the table
Leon Ash: Wow, the USA Rugby team are playing a blinder! 🙂
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Hi leon, bromo, pat, pricess, beathan, sleazy, sudane, brian, tan 🙂
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer: hi 🙂
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: before we begin, i hope the RA will join me in congratulating the Neufreistadt Beer Guzzlers in their historic victory over the Colonia Nova Roman Winos at yesterday’s football match 🙂
Sudane Erato: Tan and Sleaze… anyone who wishes can sit here at the table…
Sleazy Writer: I can see it just fine from here
Bromo Ivory: I would second that, but this is a very divisive issue in CARE
Bromo Ivory: lol
Patroklus Murakami: indeed, you are welcome to join us on the comfy green seats 🙂
Tanoujin Milestone: Thank You, Sudane, there may be latecomers :9
Bromo Ivory: ANd yes- I only wish I could have been there
Patroklus Murakami: the CSDF was similarly split (but Tan and I were on the winning side)
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Patroklus Murakami: okay, first item
Moon Adamant: hello all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i understand last weeks’ RA meeting was quorate and you discussed the citizenship commission report
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi moon nice tosee you
Sleazy Writer: hi 🙂
Moon Adamant: hi hi 🙂
Bromo Ivory: We actually had a vote on accepting it
Patroklus Murakami: we’ll have to get the transcript on the wiki and do the necessary follow up
Bromo Ivory: 2 Aye, 2 Abstain and 1 7 day review by Brian
Patroklus Murakami: i see
Patroklus Murakami: i guess the question is ‘what next?’
Brian Livingston: I didn’t vote, so think that is technically an abstain
Patroklus Murakami: given the outcome of the commission and the disagreements over how to interpret them
Bromo Ivory: I would propose to have 1 member form each faction to meet to discuss our options and proposals
Bromo Ivory: This is an impeortnat step we might contemplate
Bromo Ivory: And we need to be tri-partisan
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: well, nothing wrong with trying to reach the broadest possible consensus 🙂 Would you include the DPU in that discussion as well?
Bromo Ivory: I think I would like that – though the RA needs to have a degree of unity at minimum
Bromo Ivory: Given their Chancellorship – I think it owuld be helpful
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think its a good idea too
Patroklus Murakami: ok, well perhaps you could organise that meeting bromo and we’ll see what comes out of it
Beathan Vale: yes — the DPU should be involved — no question
Bromo Ivory: I would like a committment from the facitons here and now that they will particiapte and to select a representative
Patroklus Murakami: i’m sure the CSDF will participate but I can’t speak for the faction 🙂 we haven’t discussed this as far as i’m aware
Beathan Vale: same for the SP
Bromo Ivory: Next week you will have a representive named?
Beathan Vale: probably — but that is something that has to be discussed
Patroklus Murakami: i should hope so. we’ll put it on the agend for our weekly wednesday meeting
Patroklus Murakami looks at Sleazy 🙂
Bromo Ivory: Ok – and I would like it on the agenda for the next RA
Beathan Vale: and because the SP is less centralized than the other parties — might be like hearding cats
Patroklus Murakami: np bromo
Beathan Vale: herding even
Bromo Ivory: I understand
Sleazy Writer takes note
Brian Livingston: Hehe
Patroklus Murakami: oh, we’re not centralised at all beathan! we have the full range of views on this issue within the CSDF!
Jon Seattle agrees with Pat on that
Patroklus Murakami: lord know how we’ll choose someone to represent us. LOL!
Bromo Ivory: CARE will have to select as well. Though already it is like valunteering in the Army for the first part of this lol
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Beathan Vale: Pat — not dictatorially run by an individual, true — but you do have an active central committee at the core
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. not really beathan. but that’s a debate for another time perhaps?
Beathan Vale: I don’t belong to any organized political party — in RL I’m a democrat, here a Simpleton 😉
Patroklus Murakami: shall we move on to item 2? SC confirmations
Brian Livingston: hehe
Brian Livingston nods
Bromo Ivory: (Thanks for selecting someone to help this thing along, guys!)
Patroklus Murakami: so, we have three nominations for the Scientific Council – Claude Desmoulins, Justice Soothsayer and Pelanor Eldrich
Patroklus Murakami: the Dean has requested that we confirm their appointment to the SC
Patroklus Murakami: would anyone wish to comment on the candidacy of any of these three?
Beathan Vale: excellent candidates
Sudane Erato: i guess the DPU won’t be represented on the RA anytime soon :))
Bromo Ivory: I think all 3 are good picks
Brian Livingston: I think all three will make excellent additions to the SC
Sleazy Writer wispers: this is a plot to take over the CDS and turn it into a Swiss banking center .. 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: LOL at Sleazy!
Bromo Ivory: A bank in SL? LOL
Brian Livingston: With 50% APY?
Brian Livingston: Sweet!
Patroklus Murakami: any further comments? otherwise, we’ll proceed to the vote
Beathan Vale: cool — SL needs stable banks
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i suggest we vote on each candidate separately. i’ll call the vote and then each RA member needs to say ‘yay’ or ‘nay’. i’ll prompt if i don’t get a response!
Patroklus Murakami: so, on Claude Desmoulins’ candidacy for the SC. how do the RA members vote?
Brian Livingston: aye
Jon Seattle: Aye (yay)
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Leon Ash: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂
Leon Ash: Sorry, trying to watch teh Rugby at the same time 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: and Justice Soothsayer. how do the RA members vote?
Jon Seattle: Aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Leon Ash votes aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
Brian Livingston: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: ty, that is also unanimous
Beathan Vale: (wonders if Rugby is scriptable)
Bromo Ivory: (oooh! Rugby)
Patroklus Murakami: and finally, on Pelanor Eldrich. How do the RA members vote?
Brian Livingston: aye
Bromo Ivory: AYE
Beathan Vale: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Jon Seattle: abstains
Patroklus Murakami abstains
Leon Ash votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: then we have confirmed three new members of the SC
Sleazy Writer: Hooray!
Patroklus Murakami: Now, on to item 3
Sleazy Writer: who has a bottle of champagne?!
Sleazy Writer will settle for beer after the meeting
Bromo Ivory: COngratulations to the new SC members!
Patroklus Murakami: now, I think it’s fair to say that we have a number of issue to resolve as a community over the new sim
Sleazy Writer: ty Princess 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: hope moet is good enough
Patroklus Murakami: and some questions have come to us from the Guild in order to move things forward
Patroklus Murakami: moon, you had a report to give on a survey I believe? would it help to take that now?
Moon Adamant: yes
Patroklus Murakami is eyeing two bottles of ‘veuve cliquot’ in RL and wondering if he can justify opening them 🙂
Moon Adamant: first of all, my apologie sto Guild members at the previous meeting: i had forgot that the School occupied two plots, so my reckonings re: New Guild weren’t correct (i’ll post the correct data too)
Moon Adamant: i can present accurate data as regards New Guild’s holdings now, but not as regards Monastery or Moca
Moon Adamant: this because Monastery is still under construction – so tehir needs are an estimate
Moon Adamant: and MoCA has adapted to the resources available, and could envisage an expansion – so therefore also an estimate there
Moon Adamant: New Guild holds atm 3 plots with total 1103 prims
Moon Adamant: Monastery estimates their needs above the 40*60 m plot and 1000 prims they had signaled as their first estimate
Moon Adamant: Moca is currently using 412 prims, but again, could envisage an expansion
Moon Adamant: so we are talking around the 2600 prims currently held
Patroklus Murakami: ty moon 🙂 is there more?
Moon Adamant: nothing more, except that the survey didn’t ask on finantial issues, purely on resources being used
Patroklus Murakami: i must confess i’m a bit behind on this debate
Jon Seattle: About 17 – 18% of a sim. Is that correct?
Moon Adamant: yes
Patroklus Murakami: is this in connection with the idea that the new sim be entirely supported by NGOs? or have i got the wrong end of the stick?
Moon Adamant: mind that in teh case of New Guild, one of the plots is unused or almost so, but the school plots are over their alottage
Jon Seattle: Pat, sudane’s proposal, if I understand it, is that the new sim would be partly supported by NGOs and the rest public.
Sudane Erato: and the MoCA plot is way over its allotage, because of the exhibit
Patroklus Murakami: aah yes, thanks jon 🙂
Sleazy Writer: (Which is normal for MoCA, imo)
Sudane Erato: yes… part of the prim bank plan
Patroklus Murakami: and sudane has posted her financial estimate on the forums. i have that as a texture but it’s no-copy so i can’t transfer it 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, could you hand copies to ppl?
Sudane Erato: sorry Pat 🙁
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: or put it in the notecard box?
Sleazy Writer: ty
Brian Livingston: thanks sudane 🙂
Sudane Erato: anyone not get it?
Patroklus Murakami: everyone have a copy now?
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory nods
Sudane Erato: to follow on from Moon’s report
Sudane Erato: and how this report works
Sudane Erato: Moons report implied the prim capacity (old system) of 11304 sq maters
Sudane Erato: lloking at the bottom
Bromo Ivory ‘s hair goes on end
Sudane Erato: that many sq meters of revenue generating land would mean that outr tier goes up only about 50%
ThePrincess? Parisi: only?
Patroklus Murakami: do you mean tier in the rest of teh CDS?
Sudane Erato: all tier in the CDS
ThePrincess? Parisi: and as much as 71?
Bromo Ivory: I am fairly certain that the outcome of the plebiscate would have happened differently with these figures
Sudane Erato: my assumption has always been that we would equalize the tier load, so that AM residents do not pay much more tier/prim than the other residents
ThePrincess? Parisi: agreed
Patroklus Murakami: well, perhaps we could consider the 3 questions from the Guild now? as this will involve discussing these issues
Patroklus Murakami: the first question is “will the new sim be sold (other than to NGOs)?” i assume this means ‘will it be all public land?’
Patroklus Murakami: i had always assumed that it would be largely private land, pretty much residential. that’s what i thought we had voted on
Patroklus Murakami: what do others think?
Bromo Ivory: I do not beleive the original vote anticiapted 100% public land
Bromo Ivory: I think it was supposed to be residential
Bromo Ivory: And I beleive it should stay that way because of it
Jon Seattle: Yes, the original proposal was to be residental and “light commercial” according to the AM writeup.
ThePrincess? Parisi: i would like residential. and i dont agree with raising teirs
Bromo Ivory: WOuld it be helpful to have Rose speak to us before we make a decision?
Patroklus Murakami: is rose around?
Sleazy Writer: yes
Sudane Erato: she is i n world
Bromo Ivory: I am IM ing her
Sudane Erato: i have always reminded people that a new sim will cost 50% more per month than our existing sims
Sudane Erato: someone has to pay for that
Rose Springvale: hello
Patroklus Murakami: hi rose 🙂 thank you for joining us
ThePrincess? Parisi: welcome rose..
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you so much
Rose Springvale: thanks for having me
Bromo Ivory: RIght – but 100% public SIm is a lot different than a mostly residential on that impact
Patroklus Murakami: we’re just discussing Alpine Meadows
Sudane Erato: oh yes, of course
Rose Springvale: ok
Patroklus Murakami: and the proposal to make it 100% publicly owned, apart from land used by NGOs
Rose Springvale: i see
Beathan Vale: true — tier in SL is increasing — and continuing to increase — so expansion will be more costly each time we do it — but I think we have a broad consensus that we should still do it — and do wit by adding land to preserve the territoriality of our project
Patroklus Murakami: sorry 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i’m trying to compose a question
Beathan Vale: Rose — we have concerns that the recent proposals from the Guild are changing your Alpine Meadows project into something very differeent than you envisioned and you presented to the CDS community
Patroklus Murakami: but they all sound too ‘leading’
Patroklus Murakami: ty beathan for filling in!
Rose Springvale: well
Rose Springvale: i’ve been to the guild meetings and paid attention
Moon Adamant: Beathan, that is not hmmm very precise
Sudane Erato: yes, beathan, that is not the case
Beathan Vale: true — but my views on the proposal are not at all precise either
Rose Springvale: and have to say that the plan proposed earlier by the guild, with double prim lots, met my vision more than thepublic sim idea
Moon Adamant: The Guild is asking teh RA to decide over a matter of policy which is out of bounds of teh Guild
Rose Springvale: if that is what you are asking
Patroklus Murakami: actually, i’m more interested in the proposals regarding how we pay for the new sim in terms of tier than how close this is to the original vision. but the proposal was clearly for a residential sim, wasn’t it?
Rose Springvale: yes
Rose Springvale: with light commercial
Rose Springvale: no urban center
Moon Adamant: seeing that new data has been presented, ie: teh possibility that the land be totally paid for by the community
Sleazy Writer agrees with Pat
Rose Springvale: hmm, as a citizen, and proposer, i never expected major impact on my tier payments by virtue of adding a sim
Rose Springvale: would have not proposed it had i anticipated
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think we can really depart from that. what would be our authorisation to do so? when ppl voted in the contest these ideas weren’t really on the table
Sudane Erato: the RA can, of course, reject my assumption that tier will be equalized….
Moon Adamant: thus the Guild’s decision to ask these questions from the RA
Sudane Erato: and allow the AM residents to pay a much higher rate
Brian Livingston: Crazy question, but if we *were* to raise tiers to pay for thsi sim, how would our land rates be in comparison to other private sims out there?
Patroklus Murakami: i think that’s a separate question sudane
ThePrincess? Parisi: good question brian
Patroklus Murakami: the first question is ‘is it wholly public? or residential?’
Patroklus Murakami: the second question is ‘how do we pay for it? who pays for it?’
Sudane Erato: other rates range from 6 cents to 14 cents
Jon Seattle: Yes, the question that was posed was not about tier rates, but should the new sim be sold only to NGOs
Beathan Vale: my understanding is that the terrain is causing problems for the residential conception — is that right?
Patroklus Murakami: *questions are
ThePrincess? Parisi: and how many ppl would leave with no .. tier being paid.. and what does that do the bottom line…we cannot assume we wont lose residents
Rose Springvale: i was under the impression that the guild had good ideas for adapting the terrain
ThePrincess? Parisi: a higher tier i mean
Moon Adamant: beathan, we have a terrain atm that though not final is a handy approximation
Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to propose that we proceed on the basis that the new sim will be largely residential
Beathan Vale: I agree with that
Jon Seattle: Seconded
Bromo Ivory: Third
Patroklus Murakami: and then ask the Guild to prepare a set of options for plots and financing the payment of tier
Moon Adamant: and a proposal for parcels that has incorporated suggestions from several people
Beathan Vale: I think we do want to explore the idea of increasing public space — especially destination space — having a tourism center or somesuch — but we should try to set it up specifically — and as a revenue generator if possible
Moon Adamant: The Guild is ready to do that
Patroklus Murakami: are other RA members in agreement with my proposal?
Beathan Vale: aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Jon Seattle: aye
Patroklus Murakami: did we lose leon to rugby again? 🙂
Brian Livingston: abstain
Sudane Erato: hehe
Jon Seattle: 😀
Patroklus Murakami: never mind 🙂
Bromo Ivory thinks he heard an announcer yel “Scooooooooore”
Leon Ash: Huh, are we voting again??
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we could look at question 2 now? how do we feel about subsidising the new sim since it will cost 50% more than NFS and CN currently do?
Patroklus Murakami: wb Leon 🙂
Beathan Vale: I think we need to bite that bullet — it is a given —
Beathan Vale: but we can weight — so not have full equalization — but a partial shift in tier
Jon Seattle: Does this mean we would be subsiding CN as well?
Brian Livingston: We’re going to have to normalize tiers
Patroklus Murakami: surely the precedent is how we set tier rates for CN? anyone recall how that was done?
Jon Seattle: I do, but Sudane set them really.
Moon Adamant: the finantial group did
Patroklus Murakami: the rate is different for CN and NFS isn’t it? what was the rationale for that? was it down to the different performance stats of the sim
Brian Livingston: That being said, I never really understood why the CN land is moer expensive than NFS, to the point that CN is bringing in almost 30% more tahn NFS
Sudane Erato: the rates are now by zone
Patroklus Murakami was on the financial group but can’t remember that decision 🙂
Sudane Erato: in both sims
Sudane Erato: so they differ based on where each parcel is located
ThePrincess? Parisi: what happnes if the higher rates make us lose the rate of rentals… if people leave and we catn stay full?
Sudane Erato: that can be done here too, if you wish
Beathan Vale: TP — I don’t think that is likely — we are still at the low end of cost
Sudane Erato: but the real issue is the overall average
Patroklus Murakami: anyone know how other land barons are dealing with this issue? it can’t just be us!
Beathan Vale: plus, we have more say in how things happen
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do…. land values are dropping so quickly
Sudane Erato: well…
Beathan Vale: land sales are down — land prices are beginning to reboudn
Bromo Ivory: Island land tends to be more valuable than mainland
ThePrincess? Parisi: no i disagree
Bromo Ivory: Since it has covenants and so on
Beathan Vale: but island sales are wahy down in number — and large parcels are not selling
Sudane Erato: it depends on the island
Bromo Ivory: True, Sudane
Beathan Vale: gthat indicates that gthe rental market is very, very soft
Beathan Vale: the gambling ban really hurt — now the VAT will also cause serious problems
Sudane Erato: on quality sims, and i’d like to think we count ours as that
Beathan Vale: overall population in SL fell for the first time ever
Sudane Erato: values are very high
Moon Adamant: land values are bound to go up again with the introduction of VAT on euro zone sales, mind – not specially because of that, but as you will get a parallel market
Beathan Vale: it will again
ThePrincess? Parisi: and volatile is my point
Beathan Vale: so — we should be worried — but not too worried
ThePrincess? Parisi: no i think its very risky
Beathan Vale: for instance — I have sold 3 large lots in the last 2 days — first such sales in more than a month
Patroklus Murakami: it seems to me there are three options – 1) make AM pay its own way 2) have a flat rate across the CDS 3) something in between
Patroklus Murakami: if we had some options to look at that said what the effect would be on tier payments for those three options that might help us make a decision
Beathan Vale: agrees with Pat
Patroklus Murakami: we could see, for instance, whether making AM pay for itself would push the fees up way too high
Bromo Ivory: I would like to take into account the relative speed of the servers into the tier
Jon Seattle: I personally would be happy with some variation of each, but I want to make sure that we are not having small land holders subsidise larger ones.
Beathan Vale: agrees with Bromo and Jon
Bromo Ivory: Jon, yes – needs to be neutral not progressive or regressive
Patroklus Murakami: and we could judge what the effect would be on current tier rates for existing citizens in NFS and CN
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i agree that server speed/quality needs to be factored in
Patroklus Murakami: clearly we all enjoy all our territory but there is a ‘quality of life’ issue to consider when you have a home on a ‘slow’ sim
Brian Livingston: Isn’t Server speed a fluctuating factor, depending on the load on that server?
Moon Adamant: you are aware that those are subjective and dynamic issues that may be hard to reckon?
Moon Adamant: exactly brian
Moon Adamant: you can calculate an average, of course
Beathan Vale: yes — Moon —
Moon Adamant: BUT
Patroklus Murakami: moon, i’m guessing it’s AM>CN>NFS?
Sudane Erato: there is no clear benefit of a new server over an old
Patroklus Murakami: that’s enough information to make some kind of judgement
Bromo Ivory: Lag?
Brian Livingston: And NFS will be moved to an upgraded server at some point in the near future, or at least our tier rate will likely go up in the next few months, so we should probably plan accordingly nevertheless
Moon Adamant: you can’t for instance preview if someone comes around tomorrow on a quick sim and sets a lot of laggish scripts
Beathan Vale: yes — in fact, depending on build and location — old servers might be favored —
Beathan Vale: on the mainland — they frequently are
Bromo Ivory: Well if they upgrade the server – then the NFS will have more avlue overall
Bromo Ivory: (And Havoc 4 will help, too)
Patroklus Murakami: so we may need to come back to this if NFS is upgraded? interesting
Moon Adamant: ehehe Havoc 4 is far away still
Sudane Erato: yes we will!!
Brian Livingston: Our rate is locked in until November I beleive, correct?
Bromo Ivory: Well if tier goes up we will have to
Brian Livingston: Then we can be brought up to the higher rate potentially
Sudane Erato: i have seen no commitment of any sort from LL
Patroklus Murakami: can we consider the third question so that we answer all of the Guild’s questions and give them enough to move things forward?
Brian Livingston: I’d say option 3 is the logical choice given our present discussion and realistic pricing scenarios
Patroklus Murakami: i think i probably agree brian 🙂 the middle way once more!
Patroklus Murakami: LOL
Beathan Vale: agree — option 3 is best
Leon Ash: Middle way seems best
Patroklus Murakami: but, on to plot sizes and distribution thereof
Patroklus Murakami: do ppl have views on this? there have been a number of proposals on the forums
Moon Adamant: the main discussion appears tobe
Moon Adamant: between holding a rural, disperse feel in the sim
Moon Adamant: and ensuring that there is a representativity of plot sizes from small to large
Moon Adamant: atm, there is a proposal at the forums that allows a compromise
Moon Adamant: can be detailed more of course, and for instance, there isn’t a finantial preview on it, saving for an accounting of resources
Leon Ash: Sorry everyone, but my time has come again. Till next week
Patroklus Murakami: are we experiencign chat lag?
Bromo Ivory: See you Leon!
Moon Adamant: that is, we know that the proposal previews more than 80% of the sim’s prims for sale
Sleazy Writer: (Dnate/Jon proposal of 18 Sept. : http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?p=8771#8771 )
Bromo Ivory: I would like to maximize entry points for new citizens
Patroklus Murakami: i’m seeing ppl type but nothing come up
Rose Springvale: i don’t know if you want me to talk
Bromo Ivory: PLease do!
Rose Springvale: though i do have strong feelings on this
Patroklus Murakami: happy to hear what you have to say rose
Jon Seattle: Sleazy, the difference between that one and the previous is mainly where the weight of the population is on the north end. Both it and the prior version have the same distrubution of lot sizes.
Rose Springvale: there are many many small plots in nfs and CN
Rose Springvale: ther are very few places for citizens to actually build and live without being frugal
Rose Springvale: those of us who want to do that
Rose Springvale: i’ll pick on myself and princess
Beathan Vale: agrees with Rose
Rose Springvale: end up buying more than one lot
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Rose Springvale: and then we use up prims
Rose Springvale: and have lots of open land
Rose Springvale: to have a few large lots
Rose Springvale: may verywell open up several smaller one
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do love prims
Rose Springvale: ones thus creatinmg more opportunity for “entry level”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh still meeting? ^

Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi everybody :))
Beathan Vale: yes — we don’t need to use the same land mix model on every sim we open now that we intend to open multiple sims
Rose Springvale: my law office isn’t extravagant
Patroklus Murakami: hi gwyn, jamie 🙂
Rose Springvale: but i can’t get down to one lot, even a big one in CN
Rose Springvale: if i moved it to an AM double prim lot
Rose Springvale: you would open at least two
Rose Springvale: in CN
Jon Seattle: Rose, how large a lot do you need?
Rose Springvale: and other people.. .like me…would be more likely to buy
Rose Springvale: I’m not commintting to moving
Rose Springvale: i’m just saying that there ARE entry levels for small land owners. but not for large
Jon Seattle: The combined plans we posted do have some very large lots, along with medium and smaller ones.
Rose Springvale: i’m sorry, i’ve been too busy to keep up with forums, and always get mad when i try. so i’ll stick to in world meetings
Jon Seattle: The real question is do we want to have all enormous lots (9500 m2 in prims) or a mix.
Moon Adamant coughs and points out again that proposal exp10 was a sketch
Jon Seattle: A sim with only six residents if we go with the enormous lots only.
Rose Springvale: anyway, tha’s my input.. if you need more, i’m happy to talk to you, but i need to go now 🙂 thanks ladies and gentlemen 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hmm, it’s an interesting question. how do we meet all our needs? both for occasional larger lots and also provide for expansion?
Patroklus Murakami: ok, ty rose
Beathan Vale: hmmm … Jon – – good point
Patroklus Murakami: bye for now
Rose Springvale: (easy answer, buy more sims hehe)
Rose Springvale: byeee
Sudane Erato: sadly… I must leave too
Patroklus Murakami: well, that easy answer may well be the right one
Sudane Erato: RL commitments
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you rose
Patroklus Murakami: bye sudane 🙂
Jon Seattle: Bye Sudane 🙂
Beathan Vale: thanks Rose — I really wanted your insight on this one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Rose, Sudane 😀
Sudane Erato: bye all 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: i need to leave too
Brian Livingston: Tha being said, we may have difficultytrying to find people to purchase such large lots..
Patroklus Murakami: bye theprincess 🙂
Sleazy Writer: The Chancellor can always subdivide them
Patroklus Murakami: i’d feel happier agreeing to some larger lots if we had 8 sims rather than heading for 3
Jon Seattle: Brian, yes, especially if they are on such slanted parcels.
Brian Livingston: And if someone leaves their plot, the sim could quikcly go from making a small profit to losing money pretty quickly
Beathan Vale: we can folllow RL — have people buy farms and then turn them into subdivisions later
Sleazy Writer: I wouldn’t let citizens do that 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: it feels like we need a mix at this point in our development. expanding by only 6-8 plots in the new sim just doesn’t feel like enough to me
Brian Livingston: I’m not saying lets go for NFS densities, but a mix ofmedium amnd large sized plot is our best bet in my opinion
Patroklus Murakami: and i liked jon’s idea to provide some density while in keeping with the theme
Jon Seattle: Beathan, we will have quite a debate about how to do that.. there is no provision at the moment, and it is unlikley that we can work that out in time.
Moon Adamant: but 6 plots were never proposed *sighs*
Sleazy Writer: Jon : how large are the largest plots in your plan(s) — they seem 2000+ sqm to mee (in prims)
Beathan Vale: Pat — i have some land for excess population — we can work out something with the Guild
Bromo Ivory: I could go for that – we want to kepe the doors for joining and options for citizens wide open
Jon Seattle: Moon, Rose and Sudane supported the 6 plots very clearly, even if that was not your intention.
Bromo Ivory: Well the law as it is written allocates lots and citizenship on square meters only
Bromo Ivory: So prims don’t enter into the equation
Beathan Vale: I think we should focus on making the sim look and feel the way we want — and if that causes us to have too few new lots, I can work out an overflow deal with the Guild using my waterfront community or the sim which is being used as the monastary sandbox
Bromo Ivory: SO a quintuple lot of 4000m

2 would be still legal
Patroklus Murakami is puzzled by what bromo said
Moon Adamant: Bromo, that is just a factor you configure at the accounting system
Bromo Ivory: Sure
Sleazy Writer: Bromo .. you’re talking about covenants .. that differs per sim so where is the problem?
Beathan Vale: i was thinking of turning the monstary land into a Tibetan village anyway — it could be CDS foothold on the mainland — get incidental traffic
Bromo Ivory: I was saying that we are talking about lots of “equivalent prims” and as far as landholding – that is irrelevant
Bromo Ivory likes Beathan’s idea
Jon Seattle: The point is as much distribution as lot sizes. It is risky for us to create a social division that says some people over here, others over there.
Patroklus Murakami: aah i see what you’re saying bromo. our restriction is on no more than 4096 m2 in any one sim isn’t it?
Bromo Ivory: I agree Jon, but it isn’t a factor in the constitution
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pat
Moon Adamant: the restriction is set per sim
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Jon Seattle: Right now the people volunteering for the guild, to build this space, will not be allowed to own land under the 6 lot plan. That is a problem.
Moon Adamant: hm?
Bromo Ivory: UNless they sell up and move
Jon Seattle: Bromo, unless they can affort a 9500 m2 lot.
Bromo Ivory: This is true as well
Bromo Ivory: But this is something that I have a concern about – when we talk about double prims
Jon Seattle: Bromo, well, we will be selling the double prim lots at 2x the price of course, no other reason to have double
Bromo Ivory: Of course
Jon Seattle: In effect each resident will own their share of the sim — since it is all private land.
Patroklus Murakami: this feels like another situation where we need to see some numbers. how feasible is it to produce a set of figures for 1) big lots 2) a very mixed sim 3) something in between?
Moon Adamant: you need to make a proposal for each
Bromo Ivory: If the proposal said “village” then we are in for makiung at least some small lots
Patroklus Murakami: we already have plot diagrams on the forums, how hard would it be to turn those into proposals?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😛
Patroklus Murakami: we could discuss the principle all night, it’s clear we are quite divided 🙂
Moon Adamant: well, you have the full data for teh sketch exp10
Moon Adamant: the subsequent proposals need more land to pas sinto public, because of roads
Jon Seattle: Bromo, the proposal in fact says (1) village, and (2) sets the largest plots at 2946 m2. The 6 lot proposal ignores both of these.
Beathan Vale: I think that a mixture of lots can preserve the look and feel of a rural sim — but I am not sure the current proposal does so
Moon Adamant: but not significantly
Moon Adamant: that’s the added advantage of double prim plots
Jon Seattle: *2048 sorry.
Bromo Ivory: Well double prims solves the “prim lot” issue
Patroklus Murakami: oh dear. we lost brian 🙂
Moon Adamant: not only that Bromo
Jon Seattle: So it seems to me exp10, the one Rose was backing, is not consistant with the AM proposal.
Sleazy Writer nods
Moon Adamant: double prim allows me to have floating parcel son the terrain, as half of the land is *primless* so to sy
Patroklus Murakami: i’m concerned that we’re not really giving the Guild any clear steer here. we appear to have a range of opinions
Beathan Vale: true Pat
Bromo Ivory: Well I would ask the Guild to come up with a proposal that follows the letter of the original thing that was voted upon
Beathan Vale: but I’m not sure that the way is clear enough to give clear direction
Bromo Ivory: As well as other proposals
Bromo Ivory: We best not deviate from what the people asked for
Patroklus Murakami: is working up multiple proposal too much to ask? i don’t want to overload the Guild with unnecessary work
Moon Adamant: well, that’s what we have been doing
Moon Adamant: well, what i think is
Beathan Vale: true — the Guild has done about as much as it can without direction
Bromo Ivory nods
Moon Adamant: if you consider the exp 10 sketch
Patroklus Murakami: wb brian 🙂
Beathan Vale: but I don’t know if we can give the required direction atm
Gwyneth Llewelyn thinks that the Guild should charge the RA 😉
Sleazy Writer: wb 🙂
Moon Adamant: it is something that sort of shows hmmm
Moon Adamant: well, it is under the 10% public prims, that is communication area
Jon Seattle: See the bottom of this: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1355&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=5d5cbcfccae62d19d2335a1653a7656c
Moon Adamant: that is pretty good in terms of ratio communication/useable spaces – but it was understood that as the plna was refined and subdivided, you would progressively have more public resources
Moon Adamant: this to say that exp 10 is a sort of limit to what you can have in terms of saleable resources, considering that you do want roads and landscape
Moon Adamant: and not a mainland mess
Bromo Ivory nods
Bromo Ivory: I am uncertain we will reach a good direction today
Moon Adamant: as for the Jon/Dnate proposal, it is already a refinement of the sketch
Moon Adamant: so the data on it can be considered mature
Moon Adamant: does this input help?
Sleazy Writer: Does the RA want more options than the Jon/Dnate proposal?
Patroklus Murakami: well, we’re not getting you very much further forward on this issue right now. how might we resolve this? Is the Guild ready to come forward with a proposal? will it be ready to do so soon?
Moon Adamant: Mind also the following
Moon Adamant: there are much more possible solutions with smaller plots than with larger plots
Bromo Ivory: I do like th eones on the proposal in the forums – those two
Bromo Ivory: I now Rose wanted big double primmed plots, but the proposal that was voted on didn’t call that out
Bromo Ivory: *know
Moon Adamant: as for the moment, i would suggest then that the data be collected on Jon/Dnate’s
Sleazy Writer: maybe it’s already on the forum?
Moon Adamant: i dunno, have been very busy this week, and have a lot of mail to catch up
Bromo Ivory: (THough we define maximum ownership by m^2 only, not prims
Jon Seattle: In terms of aggregate land sold, the Jon/Dnate proposals will be very close to the exp10 scetch, since I based the area of the subdivided plots on the original exp10 plots. But there will be a little variation.
Moon Adamant: Bromo: the maximum ownership is defined by sim, so it’s a question of translating land=prims on this covenant
Patroklus Murakami: does the Guild need approval from the RA for one of these plans in order to move forward? I’m not clear what we’re being asked to decide here
Bromo Ivory: Moon, thanks for clearing that up
Moon Adamant: yes, i would agree with Jon
Moon Adamant: the thing is, Pat
Moon Adamant: we are in middle of a process here, which was started in May
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Moon ? indeed!!!!
Moon Adamant: and suddenly, we got new data – namely that the sim would be sponsored by teh community
Bromo Ivory nods “Mission creep without specifications defined up front”
Moon Adamant: now that proposal is not consistent with the work we are doing as regards parcelling
Sleazy Writer: Bromo > Moon just said at the Guild that covenants is one thing that people can start working on anyway (whatever the RA decides in the mean time ..)
Moon Adamant: terrain is ok
Moon Adamant: but you see our point here
Patroklus Murakami: i think we will need to have a ‘lessons learned’ exercise following this so we don’t encounter the same problems with sim 4 etc
Moon Adamant: should we continue? should we abandon?
Moon Adamant: indeed!
Sleazy Writer: The RA only has to approve the **distribution** of sizes .. not the exact lay out
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
Moon Adamant: well, later on you’ll have to approve the plan 🙂
Moon Adamant: but as for the moment, we need you guys to tell us what you think teh policy for the sim would be
Patroklus Murakami: right, well then can i suggest we draft three options for the distribution of plots on the forums and ask the RA to vote? i can’t see any other way we’re going to resolve this
Bromo Ivory: I second that
Beathan Vale: OK — I propose that the RA just leap — vote to approve Seattle proposal to provide clear guidance, with a caveat that the alternative proposals be given favored attention for sim 4
Moon Adamant: but Pat hmmm
Moon Adamant: you already have 2
Sleazy Writer: nice one Beathan!
Moon Adamant: a limit proposal, as said, and a refinemente
Moon Adamant: what would be the 3?
Bromo Ivory: Oh …. Which one would that be – I am open to leaping, but not blindly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: …
Beathan Vale: in Jon I trust — lol
Jon Seattle: 🙂 lol
Beathan Vale: Geronimo!!!
Bromo Ivory: Option 1 or 2?
Sleazy Writer: or make this a 7 day vote .. and get all the votes during the week
Patroklus Murakami: well, i haven’t followed every twist and turn of this on the forums so i’m not as au fait as some of you 🙂
Jon Seattle: Well, and the one with Dnates changes is number 3, but they all are similar from my point of view.
Patroklus Murakami: if it’s clear there are two options can we clarify what these are and then vote on them?
Moon Adamant: yes, they are
Moon Adamant: it’s really just swapping plots around
Bromo Ivory: Well one has 2 4096 and the other doens’t have any
Moon Adamant: that’s what i mean by saying that there are many more solutions with smaller plots
Jon Seattle: I am not against larger plots as well. Remember 4096 with double prims however.
Bromo Ivory: WOuld we want to identify Option 1 to vote on it?
Sleazy Writer: 4096 v 2048 == leave it up to the covenant .. let them figure out what a person can own max.
Sleazy Writer: prim savvie people can always get 2 x 2048 if the covenant permits
Patroklus Murakami: but is the Guild happy that these are the only two options on the table? i don’t want there to be comeback later if ppl are not happy with the RAs decision
Moon Adamant: Pat
Moon Adamant: the proposals we have are teh result of a process
Moon Adamant: in my mind, they’re not even 2, but only one that moved along in time
Moon Adamant: we can’t possibly encompass ALL possible solutions
Moon Adamant: because they’re many
Beathan Vale: Moon — in that case, is the Guild just looking for a vote of confidence in the Guild process?
Beathan Vale: or in a specific support for the final iterative result
Bromo Ivory: I am all for leaping on an option – and I move that we vote on option 1
Bromo Ivory: any seconds?
Moon Adamant: beathan, the Guild wants to carry on with its work with a minimal assurance that the work is along the desired route
Sleazy Writer: Or: “RA votes to approve the distribution expressed in the Jon-Dnate? proposal 1 or 2, … giving the Guild 10% room to vary (in square meters).”
Brian Livingston: I’m a bit confuised on what option 1 is now…
Bromo Ivory: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=1355&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=5d5cbcfccae62d19d2335a1653a7656c
Beathan Vale: I rather favor option 2 I think — but I have no heartburn about any of them — I think we need to point the Guildin some direction — but I am willing to point randomly given these options
Bromo Ivory: Last post – bottom of page
Bromo Ivory: Is that a second?
Patroklus Murakami: bromo, just hold on a second please
Bromo Ivory: OK
Moon Adamant: because, you see, it’s isn’t up to teh Guild to say which kind of population, mix, whatever, do you want
Moon Adamant: what teh Guild has shown so far is that you can have either large plots, either a mix
Patroklus Murakami: i’m a bit confused. i thought we were being asked to choose between two options, now we’re being told the Guild has settled on one. which is it?
Moon Adamant: and has given you the numbers for it
Moon Adamant: we haven’t, we were working along a process
Moon Adamant: and an option came around to have a completely public sim that doesn’t need that we work on parcelling, covenants, etc
Jon Seattle: Pat, the two options really are the six plot option (though Moon never inteded the exp10 map to the a proposal); vs the process that produced the Jon/Dnate maps.
Patroklus Murakami: well, i have no strong feelings about option 1 or 2 in the forum post given but i think you’re headed in the right direction. i don’t favour the ‘fully public’ option and i think the RA has rejected that idea
Moon Adamant: at the same time, there was a side discussion on the mix of plot sizes on the proposals in progress
Patroklus Murakami: Is that enough for the Guild to move forward? it seems the other RA reps are in a similar place
Moon Adamant: and the Guild has considered that that discussion was really a policy discussion, so out of bounds for us
Moon Adamant: what is enough, pardon?
Moon Adamant: now i am confused 🙂
Bromo Ivory: So …. what direction do you need – a vote to say one of the 3 is OK?
Jon Seattle: I would like a vote that 1, 2, or 3 is okay. That the original exp10 with just 6 parcels is not the way we should go.
Patroklus Murakami: what does the Guild need from the RA to move forward? do you need a vote from us on one of these proposals? What are you asking us to decide?
Jon Seattle: Let me pull up the exp10 map
Moon Adamant: what we would like is
Patroklus Murakami: we need to finish in ten mins at the most btw 🙂 we’re over time
Jon Seattle: http://temp.betatechnologies.info/Moon/APM_exp10%20copy.jpg
Moon Adamant: that you guys would say ‘consider this kind of proposal’ and that it would be final
Brian Livingston: Yea, Iv’e gotta run in a mintue or two :/
Moon Adamant: so that we could have a solid ground for our work
Moon Adamant: instead of shifting sand
Jon Seattle: The exp10 map I just posted is the one that Rose approved and supports.
Moon Adamant: hm, i haven’t yet seen an explicit disaproval of the Jon/Dnate’s
Bromo Ivory: It seems like we have option 1 which is the ROse plan
Moon Adamant: by anyone
Bromo Ivory: And option 2/3 which is the lot mixture
Jon Seattle: Bromo, exactly
Patroklus Murakami: ty bromo. i think that’s a fair summary
Bromo Ivory: Can we move to a vote – on the mixture of plots?
Patroklus Murakami: yes please. lets
Brian Livingston: I think that the general consensus of the meembers present is that options 2 and 3 are nice compromises, but I may be wrong on that analysis
Bromo Ivory: So I move to vote to adopt the plot mixture plan 2/3
Patroklus Murakami: i vote for options 2/3, the jon/dnate options/direction
Bromo Ivory: I vote 2/3 Jon/DNate
Jon Seattle: Of course, I am in favor of 2/3 🙂
Patroklus Murakami prods beathan
Brian Livingston: Aye
Bromo Ivory thinks of fraternity pranks we could play on Beathan
Gwyneth Llewelyn laughs 🙂
Brian Livingston: Anyoen have a permanent marker?
Brian Livingston: Anda razor…
Patroklus Murakami: i guess we’ll have to wait for beathan to come to life to tell us how he votes
Bromo Ivory: Nair his left eyebrow off
Brian Livingston: Hmmm, and a chicken and some ducttape
Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
Jon Seattle: Pat, he did vote I think.
Patroklus Murakami: so inventive!
Bromo Ivory: (Well we ARE the RA)
Jon Seattle: 😀
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
Jon Seattle: Beathan?
Patroklus Murakami: beathan? could you read back and let us know your vote?
Beathan Vale: 2/3
Jon Seattle: lol!
Patroklus Murakami: what was that?
Sleazy Writer: nothign 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Bromo Ivory: Sleazy shouting
Patroklus Murakami: i move we adjourn
Bromo Ivory: second!
Brian Livingston: Wow, the RA has fallen off the deepend the past few minutes :p
Jon Seattle: Aye 🙂
Brian Livingston: aye!
Moon Adamant: thank you all 🙂
Brian Livingston: deep end*
Sleazy Writer: good job RA 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned
Patroklus Murakami: ty everybody
Bromo Ivory: See you next week
The meeting closed at 14:10 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 165, 41)

Meeting on 2007-10-07
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Bromo Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, let’s begin
Bromo Ivory: 4 present
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: the chat log will start from now
Patroklus Murakami: there’s an agenda in the wooden box on the table
Patroklus Murakami: only one agenda item today – sudane’s proposed legislative change
Bromo Ivory: I thought we were going to hear back from the other factions as to who their representtive for working on Citizenship would be?
Bromo Ivory: its not on agenda
Patroklus Murakami: we can take that first bromo
Sudane Erato: thats all?
Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂
Sudane Erato: !!
Patroklus Murakami: yes, nothing else has been submitted
Pelanor Eldrich: I think we can eat up more than one RA meeting with Citizenship and land sale. 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the CSDF rep will be Sleazy Writer
Bromo Ivory: Well all I would like to know would be who would be the rep
Patroklus Murakami: Simplicity are not here
Patroklus Murakami: Pel, can you speak for the DPU?
Michel Manen: brian is coming i think
Pelanor Eldrich: I’d like to consult with the rest of the DPU. As many of you know my views sometimes diverge from the DPU.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: I saw him pop on
Jon Seattle: Hi Brian 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: So I can’t unilaterally decide that I speak for the DPU on this question. I’ll get back to you ASAP.
Brian Livingston: Hi all
Bromo Ivory: Hi Brian ! I recognize that bear!
Patroklus Murakami: hi brian. ty for coming, we are no quorate 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi brian
Brian Livingston: We need 5, correct?
Patroklus Murakami: *now
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston: Oh, hehe,
Patroklus Murakami: so, brian. bromo was asking about faction reps for the citizenship meeting he has planned
Patroklus Murakami: has the simplicity party considered who its rep might be?
Brian Livingston: Hmm, We haven’t but Provided teh timing for the meetings is agreeable, I would be willing to represent the SP
Patroklus Murakami: ok, ty brian
Bromo Ivory: I have not established a meeting time
Bromo Ivory: and thanks!
Brian Livingston: So it’s a tenative yes, but if I can’t do it, I will run the time by Beathan to see if he can attend in my stead
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi sleazy
Bromo Ivory: I was going to try to schedule around the reps
Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on to item 1, sudane’s proposed legislative change. sudane, would you like to introduce this?
Sleazy Writer: Hi Princess, hello everyone
Jon Seattle: Hi Sleazy
Bromo Ivory: CSDF? Who is your rep?
Patroklus Murakami: i said that Sleazy would be our rep
Bromo Ivory: OK sorry
Patroklus Murakami: np:) sudane?
Patroklus Murakami prods sudane
Sleazy Writer: Bromo’s remark must be about the Citizenship report, I’ve just told him that the CSDF thinks prospects for successful negotiations look bleak and will post on the forum what I’ve just told him.
Michel Manen: well sleazy thats your opinion
Sudane Erato: sorry…
Sudane Erato: assaulted by IMs 🙁
Bromo Ivory: I hope it means CSDF will have an open mind, and all could be pleasantly surprised!
Pelanor Eldrich: Sry your honor I was bending the good treasurer’s ear.
Sudane Erato: the bill…
Sleazy Writer ignores Michel, for now ..
Sleazy Writer: (sorry about that)
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, you have the floor
Sudane Erato: most of SL sells land by having the individual owner
Michel Manen: for someone who comes and goes every 3 montths you really ar very opinionanted..
Sudane Erato: mark their land for sale
Patroklus Murakami: order pls
ThePrincess? Parisi clears her throat
Sudane Erato: we haven’t, and i am proposing that we do that
Michel Manen: sorry
Michel Manen: that was ou of order
Sudane Erato: the obstacle is the fact that membership in the CDS is related to land ownership
Sudane Erato: but I propose that we address the appearance of the parcel covenant
Sudane Erato: in such a way that the citizenship issue is addressed
Sudane Erato: and at the same time allow citizens to sell their land in the normal way
Sudane Erato: thats really all their is to it…
Patroklus Murakami: ok, any questions/comments for sudane’s proposal?
ThePrincess? Parisi: are you comfortable that we can still remove ownershop for other than nonpayment.. but if they do not follow all rules including citizenship
Jon Seattle: Would this allow group deeds as well?
ThePrincess? Parisi: ownership
Sudane Erato: the estate Owner always has ultimate ability to remove ownership… “reclaim”
Sudane Erato: and the estate owner functions only to perform what the RA tells her to do
ThePrincess? Parisi: i understand but the covenent should be clear on that matter
Sudane Erato: and Jon, yes
Sudane Erato: an individual would buy the land
Sudane Erato: but that individual can deed the land to their group
Jon Seattle: Would we change the policy, or is it an additional step to check the group membership?
Sudane Erato: not sure i understand that
ThePrincess? Parisi: you check that now dont you sudane? that the members are citizens
Patroklus Murakami: i have a question but i’ll wait for u to answer jon 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: I’m for it. It’s less work for Sudane/Rudeen and a faster and lower overhead transaction for the new landowner/citizen. As long as we can be sure that the citizen rolls are automatically up to date I see it as a plus. We wouldn’t collect the transfer tax, but we never did anyway. It would be nice if someone could go around to give us an idea of market prices…well there a business idea..hmmm…..
Jon Seattle: Ah, members can maintain citizenship by owning group land.. who would check that membership
Jon Seattle: ?
ThePrincess? Parisi: sudane does now dont you?
Sudane Erato: the law as now stated, i understand…
Sudane Erato: says that people must be citizens first
Jon Seattle: yes
Sudane Erato: before they can be citizens as a result of ownership of group land
Sudane Erato: once a citixen becomes citizen by virtue of membership in a group
Patroklus Murakami: does that answer your question jon?
Sudane Erato: I have no way of checking that now
Sudane Erato: this would not change that
Pelanor Eldrich: hmmm
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, what do you mean by ‘no way of checking’?
ThePrincess? Parisi: nods
Jon Seattle: Well, say someone owned a parcel, bought into a group parcel, then sold their individual parcel
Sudane Erato: if I say to the coommunity…
ThePrincess? Parisi: im confused too.. you checked mine ithought
Patroklus Murakami: is there a problem with the current system regarding group ownership and citizenship?
Sudane Erato: that Salzie Sachertorte is a citizen by virtue of belonging to my group
Brian Livingston: brb, i think i just accidently ouch… brb
Sudane Erato: how do you check that?
Sudane Erato: if someone claims that a person is in a group, i take their word for it
Patroklus Murakami: surely that is checked by salzie paying her portion of the monthly fee each month?
Sudane Erato: no, there is no rule to that effect
Sleazy Writer: no such requirement a.t.m.
Patroklus Murakami: or do we still allow ppl to pay on behalf of others?
Patroklus Murakami: hi beathan, welcome 🙂
Sudane Erato: thats correct
Sleazy Writer: hi Beathan
Bromo Ivory: Hi Beathan!
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Hi Beathan 🙂
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi beathan
Beathan Vale: hello — sorry I’m late
Brian Livingston: (back… *reminds self to wash hands after cutting hot pepppers and before rubbing eyes*)
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i thought that had been changed, it certainly ought to be
Pelanor Eldrich: Perhaps we can discuss some citizenship ideas after this agenda item is over.
Patroklus Murakami: ooh, sounds painful brian!
Bromo Ivory: OW OW OW
Sudane Erato: my understanding is that that is part of the citizenship discussion
Patroklus Murakami: i have a couple of questions too. would this allow sellers to subdivide their plot into smaller lots?
Jon Seattle: Brian, I hope you are recovering 🙂
Brian Livingston: A bit pufy eyed but ok
Sudane Erato: subdivision is an entirely separate issue… its a different setting on the Estate
Sudane Erato: and I am very much opposed to that
Brian Livingston nods in agreement
Pelanor Eldrich: I agree
Bromo Ivory: Me, too
Sleazy Writer: I think the complication with people joining land groups is still the same: the EO needs to be notified, or she simply won’t know .. and there will be a citizen without anyone knowing
Patroklus Murakami: ok, so the EO can prevent that from happening by just flicking a switch? good
Jon Seattle: Yes, indeed.
Pelanor Eldrich: *flick*
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: another barrier to entry put up by CSDF.. sigh
Patroklus Murakami: how are we going to deal with those who *don’t* read the covenant and don’t understand what they’ve got into?
Sudane Erato: thats a good point Pat
Patroklus Murakami: michel, if u want to know why subdivision might be a problem, we can go into that
Sudane Erato: but the same issue exists now
Pelanor Eldrich: The iron maiden
Bromo Ivory: You can make the covenent to a “I have read and understood” check box before sale
Bromo Ivory: I bought some land with that
Sudane Erato: All sales are accompanied by such a Check Box
Patroklus Murakami: i click ‘i agree to terms’ a dozen times a day without reading. so does everybody!
ThePrincess? Parisi: ohter sims will let you buy the land on the ground.. but then you are not official until you actually go through the process with the sim owner.. so i have experienced.. if youdont do what they want ina few days teh land goes back
Michel Manen: no no lets try to accomplish dodmething today for a change,,,
Patroklus Murakami: that’s interesting ThePrincess?, that sets a precedent for us too then
ThePrincess? Parisi: we can always take the land back..
Sleazy Writer: P > SL covenants are not software licenses ..
ThePrincess? Parisi: sudane can
Sudane Erato: that is the option we use now
Sudane Erato: and that is what i suggest we change
Jon Seattle: Michel, you recommend that we not be cautious .. and not ask questions?
ThePrincess? Parisi: please lets not do that
ThePrincess? Parisi: stop jabbing
Michel Manen: i suggest we make it as simple as possible for people who wanto join us to do so
Pelanor Eldrich: I think, if I might interject, that Michel would like to see subdivisions enabled, which would make sense if land ownership were decoupled from citizenship.
Beathan Vale: legally — the check the box is effective to bind the party — even without reading – -and I think it is essential
Sudane Erato: i think that the change i propose makes it simpler
Sleazy Writer: Hi Tan
Michel Manen: yes it does sudane
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi tan
Jon Seattle: Hi Tan
Bromo Ivory: Hey there, Tan!
Jon Seattle: 🙂
Tanoujin Milestone: Hello everybody
Brian Livingston: Just a quick question in regards to land pricign. Currently, if a private party owns a plot of land, are they able to sell it for whatever price they deem appropriate or are they bound to the city price?
Michel Manen: i fully support yor proposal, for what its’ worth.. smiles
Pelanor Eldrich: And if zoning permitted etc. etc.
Brian Livingston: err, base price*
Sudane Erato: Brian, any price they wish
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston: Thanks
Patroklus Murakami: would this be more or less likely to bring in ‘active’ citizens? seems to me, if this is enabled, we’d be likely to get ppl interested in the land but not necessarily in the project
Bromo Ivory: Sudane, this can be done today anyway, can’t it?
Bromo Ivory: (setting prices)
Sudane Erato: thats a good point Pat, but i don’t think its any different now
Sleazy Writer: P > do we need people interested in the project? That’s only natural with growth
Sudane Erato: done anyway?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think it would allow people who want in to more easily get in.
Bromo Ivory: Oh when someone wants to sell land today – they can put it up for sale for any price they wish.
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes tehy can
Patroklus Murakami: it’s totally different. now ppl have to jump a hurdle and show they’re really interested. in future they could just pay the money without knowing what we’re about (or being interested)
Sudane Erato: it would be easier because the infomation about parcels for sale would b e more easily accessed
Patroklus Murakami: i’m not opposing this btw, just raising difficult questions 🙂
Brian Livingston: My initial objection was taht eliminating the check of havign to g through the EO would encourage land speculation, but I’m seeing that i was mistaken
Sudane Erato: Pat,, not really any hurdle now
Sleazy Writer: Sudane, how often do people speculate on Island land, without being the least interested in the sim and community itself?
Pelanor Eldrich: It’s very hard to tell if new citizen x will turn out to be very civically minded.
Sudane Erato: Sleaze, I’m not sure there is any connection between “speculate” and “not having any interest”
Sudane Erato: this is a bad place to speculate
Pelanor Eldrich: I think a good strategy is to get as many citizens as possible…if a standard 10% work hard in the community, it’s a good thing.
Sudane Erato: but there are many citizens with little or no interest in our system
ThePrincess? Parisi: why dont we want our land to sellat market value
Sleazy Writer: Sudane > Buying and seliing for a higher price immediately is possible and would be detrimental to our community : do you think it occurs in private islands? or here?
Patroklus Murakami: but pel, this won’t increase our population, only make buying and selling land easier
Beathan Vale: Sudane — so we are a lot like RL democracies then ? lol
Jon Seattle: Well, I generally like the idea, but I would rather it no force policy changes if possible. What about enforcement on limits to land ownership in a particular sim? Would someone be able to check that?
Sudane Erato: our land has always sold at whatever the price that an owner wants
Sudane Erato: hehe… yes Beathan
Bromo Ivory: So this isn’t a change to anything except to make it posisble of direct sales – all the structural issues are still there
Sudane Erato: Jon, thats a good point
Pelanor Eldrich: It lowers a barrier. If there is a civic superhero who wants in they need to find an available parcel, negotiate with the seller and transact through the EO. The EO is an extra step. It’s actually quite hard these days to join the CDS.
ThePrincess? Parisi: exactly bromo
Beathan Vale: never trust a “democracy” with over 80% turnout
Sudane Erato: but people can always be forced to divest
Michel Manen: yes pat
Michel Manen: its byzantine
Sleazy Writer: I don’t think speculation will be a huge problem but it *is* something we shoudl think about .. if land is traded as a pure commodity I think it will only make our land more scarce .. sure it’s capitalism but does it benefit us in this case?
Michel Manen: i agree with pel
Beathan Vale: I agree with Pel also, but without agreeing with Michel — lol
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Michel Manen: hahaha
Pelanor Eldrich: The EO is a minor inconvenience (no offense intended) the other problem is a lack of parcels for sale.
Michel Manen: good enugh for me
Patroklus Murakami: well sleazy, it benefits *us* because we’re already landowners. speculation pushes the value of our land up, but acts as a barrier to new entrants
Sudane Erato: i would assert that we have never yet experienced speculation
Sleazy Writer: that only benefits us once … though the presence of speculators (perhaps creating scarcity?) will stay
Sudane Erato: these sims are a TERRIBLE place to speculate, so far
Bromo Ivory nods “Mainland is better for speculation”
Sleazy Writer: 🙂 I assume speculators read covenants!
Patroklus Murakami: of course we’ve never experienced speculation. we’ve had a controlled market!
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Sleazy Writer: Is that right Beathan?
ThePrincess? Parisi needs a course n the evils of a free market
Sudane Erato: nothing wrong with a free market
Bromo Ivory: I dunno … something bugs me a bit
ThePrincess? Parisi: 🙁
Sudane Erato: if its really free
Beathan Vale: Sleazy — yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok …
Michel Manen: lol
Beathan Vale: I never buy island land — far too much hassle
Patroklus Murakami: what is bugging you bromo?
Beathan Vale: ML is for speculators
Pelanor Eldrich: There is no direct benefit to the CDS treasury of high (15-20$Lm/2) land prices unless a transfer tax is paid. It does help it indirectly in that landowners and investors are more willing to invest which drives up citizenship. The key thing here is *not* to raise market price by lack of supply, but rather by value add of the community. Then we all win.
Bromo Ivory: I am reading the covenant wording …
Sudane Erato: Pel, I agree
Sleazy Writer: “buy value add”= ?
Sudane Erato: “by”
Sleazy Writer: I thnk I get the point but that last line puzzles me
Pelanor Eldrich: The benefits of community membership. Democracy, rule of law, NGOs..the things that make the CDS unique.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m sympathetic to the aims of the bill, we all want to reduce the admin overhead. it doesn’t scale well and it would be good to see our land on the main market
Bromo Ivory: (I think this means is mainland land goes for L$8/m^2 and in CDS it goes for 8+amount the amount is the extra value add by our community/
Patroklus Murakami: but i wonder if we’re just swapping one set of problems for another
Beathan Vale: some people are worried about land speculation — why don’t we put a land resale restriction in — all putchases must inclue a nonrefundable payment of 3 months tier — that would stop specualtion right out
Sleazy Writer: Pel > keep in mind though that we absolutly can’t churn out new land like the Lindens, … prices will be raised once and land will stay on short supply
Patroklus Murakami: it seems to me that the logistics around defaulting landowners and potentially ignorant buyers can create a lot of problems
Beathan Vale: a prepayment would also cause folks to pay attention to what they were getting into
Beathan Vale: and it would not scare off committed people
Sudane Erato: the logistic of prepayment would be difficult
Sleazy Writer nods
Sleazy Writer: @ Beathan
Pelanor Eldrich: Sleazy, that’s true. Developing good land and getting a local community into that land takes time. It a reason I suggested landless citizenship.
Beathan Vale: what logistical complications?
ThePrincess? Parisi: why not just let them buy, then if they break the covenent take the land
Sleazy Writer: ( P > Separate issues for me ..)
Patroklus Murakami: well ThePrincess?, that could lead to a lot of disgruntled punters. i’d rather avoid that if possible
Sudane Erato: the payment for the land goes directly from the buyer to the seller
Pelanor Eldrich: Beathan: it means Sudane has to have current account balances for all the prepayers. It’s a pain.
Sudane Erato: only when i find out that ownership is transferred can i set up a new payment box
Bromo Ivory: I am all for making Rudeen’s life easier.
Sudane Erato: yes… all payments now are for the “month of” only
Pelanor Eldrich: Pat, we could allow it, but of course give them SC due process before repossessing land. We don’t just *take land* around here.
Sleazy Writer: ReBeathan’s suggestion: buyer would pay 3 extra months to seller. Seller would pay the 3 months to Rudeen . Rudeen knows the monthly fee, so knows what to expecet and also knows who’s land has been sold.
Michel Manen: why??
Sleazy Writer: but the seller might be a conman 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: well Pel, that’s one of my worries. we then create a rod for our own back dealing with the issues
ThePrincess? Parisi: waht?
Sudane Erato: well, i’m against that… would make my system very confusing
Michel Manen: of course
Patroklus Murakami: tying up the SC with cases
Bromo Ivory: What is supposed to happen now?
Sudane Erato: i’d like your approval for this
Sudane Erato: then we would simply set the chnage
Brian Livingston: If anyone recalls the Eminent Doamin proposal i offered up a year ago, it creates a mechanism for reposessing land and recourse if the affected party disagrees with the taking, including timeframes and procedures..
Pelanor Eldrich: I don’t think we’ve ever confiscated land. It’s funny, it’s just that we don’t seem to attract “criminals”.
Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to give this some further consideration
Bromo Ivory: I move we vote
Patroklus Murakami: i don\t think we’ve thought through all the implications
Brian Livingston: Althoguh different circumstances are involved
ThePrincess? Parisi: i would liek to vote as well
Pelanor Eldrich: That was a good bill Brian.
Patroklus Murakami: well, if you move to a vote i’m voting against. i’d like time to consider this
Patroklus Murakami: why the rush? this was only tabled a few days ago?
Jon Seattle: Is there a reason to hurry this?
Brian Livingston: I’d like to consider a bit more and vote next week
ThePrincess? Parisi recalls this time
Michel Manen: theres a motion to vote on the floor pat
Patroklus Murakami: did we lose bromo?
ThePrincess? Parisi: he crashed
Patroklus Murakami: wb bromo
Brian Livingston: wb bromo
Jon Seattle: wb Bromo 🙂
Bromo Ivory: Some sort of crash
Patroklus Murakami: ok, first vote is “is the topic ready for a vote?” if yes, we proceed to the vote, if no we table for further consideration
Brian Livingston: ack
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: damn, lost him again
Pelanor Eldrich: *ppof*
Brian Livingston: wb bromo
Jon Seattle: wb2 Bromo
Brian Livingston ties Bromo to his seat
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i’ll repeat for bromo
Bromo Ivory: Thanks –
Patroklus Murakami: ok, first vote is “is the topic ready for a vote?” if yes, we proceed to the vote, if no we table for further consideration
Bromo Ivory: OK
Patroklus Murakami: can i have your votes please?
Brian Livingston: nay
Patroklus Murakami: nay
Jon Seattle: votes no – lets consider it next week
ThePrincess? Parisi: perhaps we shoudl have another commision to
ThePrincess? Parisi: too late
Beathan Vale: aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aah 3-3 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: and no leon 🙁
ThePrincess? Parisi: no pumpkin either
Jon Seattle: Shall we toss a coin?
Bromo Ivory: (people rezzing in all of you are standing with arms outstretched)
Beathan Vale: well — tie is equivalent of a nay note
Pelanor Eldrich: yes
Bromo Ivory nods
Patroklus Murakami: yes beathan, that’s right
Pelanor Eldrich: Mind if we get into some substantive citizenship discussion?
Patroklus Murakami: the topic is not ready for a vote and so we table until next week. we can discuss further on the forums
Sleazy Writer mumbles from audience, quote RA proceedings: “If all present concur, the vote may occur at the in-world meeting. (…) if no – the subject is dorpped”
Patroklus Murakami: pel, that’s not on the agenda
Patroklus Murakami: we took the vote sleazy
Patroklus Murakami: that bits about 7 day votes
Pelanor Eldrich: Howabout post meeting?
Bromo Ivory: I will be out next weekend – though the 19th – I would request a 7 day vote for next week
Patroklus Murakami: pel, we can discuss post meeting
Patroklus Murakami: no problem there
Beathan Vale: Pel — I recommend that substantive discussions be on the forums — they are abetter that way
Rose Springvale whispers at the ball …
Patroklus Murakami: yes bromo. we can do 7 day for next weeks’ session
Patroklus Murakami: oh yes, ty rose
Pelanor Eldrich: Ok, fair enough Beathan.
Patroklus Murakami: i move we adjourn
Jon Seattle: Seconds that
Beathan Vale: second
Patroklus Murakami: all in favour?
Jon Seattle: Aye
Brian Livingston: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Sudane Erato: ty all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty everyone, we are adjourned
Rose Springvale: Just dropped in to remind you all that there is a ball in the schloss at 2 pm slt 🙂 and that oktoberfest will then be over
Sudane Erato: yes!!
Brian Livingston: Aww… 🙁
Sudane Erato: I have to get dressed! 🙂
The meeting closed at 13:2 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 185, 178)

Meeting on 2007-10-14
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: could everyone pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to taking a chat log?
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: this meeting will be recorderd (as usual) and the transcript posted on the wiki
Alexicon Kurka has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: the agenda and papers are in the notecard giver on the table
Patroklus Murakami: i’ve had apologies from bromo ivory who has requested a 7-day vote on agenda items
Patroklus Murakami: i see that we are quorate so let us begin
Patroklus Murakami: item 1 is the item held over from last week, sudane’s proposal to alter the way we sell land in the CDS
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, do you have anything to add to last week’s discussion or what has been discussed on the forums?
Sudane Erato: hmm… no, nothimng to add by me
Yogeswari Padar has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer: wb
Jon Seattle: wb Pat 🙂
Brian Livingston: I’ve just noticed somethign when reading over the text of the bill again – That is if the prervious owner forgets or neglects to inform the EO taht he sold his land to a new citizen and the fees are not paid, the community will reclaim the land, in effect penailzing the new citizen tremendously by the amount of their land purchase. This seems like we might be penalizing a party who has little control over the situation since the previous owner is the one responsible for informing the EO
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, having my own computer issues here 🙂
Patroklus Murakami reminds everyone that the green seats are for everybody, not just RA members 🙂
Sleazy Writer stays away from the seats to smell of power 🙂
Sleazy Writer: jk
Beathan Vale: I think that the nonpayment issue can be addressed with a global change — creating a probationary period prior to land being reclaimed but after fees are due in which the person is not a citizen, is informed of arrearage, and is prohibited from voting until fee is paid, but does not lose land for, say, 2 months
Sudane Erato: it seems to me that the new citizen should understand that the land is not free
Sudane Erato: and that somehow it must be paid for
Sleazy Writer: Also the land will not be reclaimed if the Exec or EO sees that it has a new owner
Sudane Erato: therefore… at some point they might inquire
Sudane Erato: yes… thats coorrect
Sudane Erato: Reclaim is a last resort
Sudane Erato: and it always has been
Beathan Vale: true
Beathan Vale: Ithink that this will not be a problem given how we have handled fees in the past — but if we change how we handle fees because we grow too big or someone else becomes Estate Manager, it could become a problem — so we might as well develop some way to handle to potential problem
Sudane Erato: well, i certainly agree
Sudane Erato: this could be better refined
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess has had to leave, she tells me she’s having computer problems
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, could we pass this without the covenant text and then work that up independently? it seems to me we can separate the principle from the details of implementation
Sudane Erato: oh… sure!
Sudane Erato: the covenant text was intended as an offering
Sudane Erato: it woild help the buyer understand
Beathan Vale: PAt — yes — and I think we should
Brian Livingston: I’m not crazy about passing a bill that could result in the taking of land without due consideration
Patroklus Murakami: what do others think? i don’t see the covenant text as being something the RA should approve necessarily
Patroklus Murakami: and it allows it to be worked up without holding up the idea in principle
Sudane Erato: i agree Brian…
Sleazy Writer nods about separating text & bill
Beathan Vale: I agree with Brian — can we put this over a week and I will try to draft up an amendment in consultation with Sudane
Brian Livingston: I realize that everyone shoudl knwo that hte land is not free, but the burden is on he previous owner and the new owner has little control over hte situation
Sudane Erato: and I don’t feel that I intended, or expressed that
Sudane Erato: fine with me Beathan
Beathan Vale: It will be a friendly amendment, but I’d rather not try to wing the language now
Sudane Erato: yeah
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to wait a week for a suitable text to be developed, if that will suit better. i agree beathan about not drafting on the fly!
Brian Livingston: Heck, even state that the new owner is repsonsible for contacting the EO and then teh burden is on them and if they lose their land due to non-payment of tier, its their responsibility
Sudane Erato: its a knotty problem to have a compelling mechanism
Patroklus Murakami: all those in favour of tabling until next week, say a
Patroklus Murakami: ‘aye’
Beathan Vale: aye
Brian Livingston: aye
Jon Seattle: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Patroklus Murakami: that is agreed
Patroklus Murakami: next item is the amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act that was originally submitted many months ago during the previous RA 🙂
Brian Livingston: I don’t have that on the agenda. Do you have a notecard for the new amendment?
Patroklus Murakami: sudane reminded us that this issue still needs to be resolved
Brian Livingston: Just so I can read it over
Sudane Erato: in the notecard box Brian
Patroklus Murakami: i gave u a copy too brian
Brian Livingston: Hmmm, thanks. I didn’t get one earlier when i clicked on it, btu invintory has been all weird for me today so *shrug*
Patroklus Murakami: so, just to refresh everyone’s memory 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the point of this amendment was to clarify certain issues with group ownership of land
Patroklus Murakami: it requires every citizen to make the commitment to come inworld once a month and pay their share of the monthly fee on whatever land they own
Patroklus Murakami: groups which own land on which a number of citizens claim citizenship will have to report who they are and how much they contribute
Sudane Erato: with “share” as defined by the group to which they belong, not by us
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: it also makes clear that one citizen=one avatar=one real life person
Patroklus Murakami: that’s about all. any further comments from sudane on this before i open up discussion?
Brian Livingston: Will these notices of tier allocation of whatnot be public record?
Brian Livingston: whoops,s orry.
Sudane Erato: no, i think that is a fair decription…
Patroklus Murakami: ok, let’s open it up for discussion then
Sudane Erato: the essence of it is that an “act of volition” is reqiored each month
Beathan Vale: I am concerned about the once per month requirement — it might invalidatge the citizenship of people who are committed to the CDS but who are unable to log in because a computer is in the shop or they are forward deployed military or other such
Sudane Erato: and that “act” defines citizenship
Sudane Erato: Beathan, I have in other places proposed..
Beathan Vale: I think that we need to make sure that the Chancellor can waive the requirement under proper circumstances
Sudane Erato: that if a citizen knows they will be away
Sudane Erato: for any reason
Sleazy Writer: or approve this bill but let it come into effect only later
Sudane Erato: that they simply let me know
Beathan Vale: kk
Sudane Erato: and state a date at which they will pay
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i don’t think the intention is to be draconian about this. ppl’s real lives involve all sorts of complications 🙂
Sudane Erato: i do hope that feature would not be overused
Sudane Erato: i agree Pat
Tanoujin Milestone: may we hear the answer to brian’s question?
Brian Livingston: So, just curious as to if these group allocations become a matter ofpublic record open to examinatuion by anyone or if they are considered private?
Sudane Erato: ahh… sorry
Sudane Erato: i would say that, that now…
Jon Seattle: We made a prior determination in the RA that they are private I think
Patroklus Murakami: good question brian, i must admit i hadn’t really considered that issue 🙂
Sudane Erato: that they all be public, yes
Patroklus Murakami: before we enacted group land ownership everything was public, wasn’t it?
Jon Seattle: So group membership would be public?
Sudane Erato: they have been listed on the website all along
Patroklus Murakami: names on a website next to parcel ownership and monthly fee
Sudane Erato: no, only the amount of each person’s tier
Sudane Erato: yes
Brian Livingston: I think that part of the point of this ammendment to 5-9 is that this will allow us, and by us I mean any itnersted citizen, to verify citizenship and ensure that citizens by virtue of group citizenship are indeed citizens
Jon Seattle: Ah, yes, I see.
Patroklus Murakami: it’s always been public, hasn’t it?
Brian Livingston: So I would certianly hope that hey are public and would move that they should be if a previous decision syas otherwise
Patroklus Murakami: i would prefer it to be public so that we can see who is a citizen
Sudane Erato: i agree Brian
Jon Seattle: Pat, group membership is not, but tier amounts are
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes jon, i meant before the group land ownership came in. at that time it was very clear who owned what and therefore who was a citizen
Patroklus Murakami: are we ready to vote on this proposal?
Tanoujin Milestone: may i ask if it is possible to have the citizens on the payment boxes in world?
Brian Livingston: Wait, so we won’;t know which property is granting a citizen their citizenship?
Sudane Erato: i would strongly suggest that it go to 7 days
Patroklus Murakami: we will know brian
Sudane Erato: since the CARE faction has previously been against this
Patroklus Murakami: this will go to 7 days if we decide ot take the vote
Sudane Erato: kk, sorry
Patroklus Murakami: aah, we lost jon 🙁
Sleazy Writer: woah .. lots of problem today
Patroklus Murakami: the grid gods are not smiling on us today
Brian Livingston: Ok, wonderful. I would move that the actual notice to the EO become a matter of public record to be documented somewhere for public review, be it in the locked fourm, website, or elsewhere
Patroklus Murakami: must be because i started using windows xp 🙂
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: i’m not sure this is an EO issue
Patroklus Murakami: we need at least one more RA member (e.g. Jon) in order to take the vote so I suggest we give him a few minutes to relog
Brian Livingston: Well, isn’t that who the notice will be issued to?
Sudane Erato: hmm… well, in the past its been the Treasurer, because I/she collects the fees
Sudane Erato: and the fee collection has determined who is citizen
Brian Livingston: Ah yes, sorry for the confusion
Sudane Erato: but it could be anyone
Patroklus Murakami: and then the Treasurer needs to tell the EO who is a citizen? I can’t recall sudane, in which capacity do you publish the citizens’ roll? EO or Treasurer?
Sudane Erato: i think Treasurer…
Sudane Erato: i don’t see what the EO has to do with it
Sudane Erato: but… it coiuld be anyone
Brian Livingston: It was an error ony mpart, that distinction
Patroklus Murakami: ok. in that case it is the Treasurer’s task. the EO is fairly ‘ceremonial’ as far as i’ve always been led to understand
Brian Livingston: Either way, I do feel that the recipient of the notice, in thsi case teh Treasurer, should record them somewhere for public inspection
Sudane Erato: i hope so… hehe
Sudane Erato: she is a “lackey” 🙂
Brian Livingston: lol
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i agree brian
Patroklus Murakami: well, i hope jon will be able to join us soon
Brian Livingston: Make it a seperate forum or a locked area on the wiki *shrug* the system that they are recorded on isn’t of huge concern to me as long as they are equally accessible to any interested party
Patroklus Murakami: could someone try to contact him via email and see if he’s able to make it back online?
Sudane Erato: i agree
Brian Livingston steps off soap box
Sleazy Writer is trying email
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should discuss item 3 and aim to come back to the vote on item 2 if we regain quoracy?
Brian Livingston: Got him
Brian Livingston: on gchat
Brian Livingston: He’s currently trying but being unsuccessful to log back in
Patroklus Murakami: SL has been dreadful recently
Patroklus Murakami: i went to explore an area that had disappeared from the map yesterday
Brian Livingston: his login packet keeps getting lost.
Patroklus Murakami: ended up drifting thru space forever. and then couldn’t log back in
Patroklus Murakami: tried about five time yesterday
Patroklus Murakami shakes fist at Linden Labs!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Patroklus Murakami: grrrrr!
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on to discuss item 3 and hope that jon rejoins us. ok?
Sudane Erato: oh… yesterday there was connectivity issues with Europe
Sudane Erato: they announced that
Patroklus Murakami: aah, that was my problem then 🙂
Sudane Erato: LL Blog
Patroklus Murakami: as well as the increase in VAT for tier 🙁
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: yes!!!
Brian Livingston: VAT went up again?
Patroklus Murakami consider selling his land and renting in the CDS full time….
Brian Livingston: I bouth that Mainland land too early me thinks
Brian Livingston: I got it cheap but geesh
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, that was a diversion 🙂
Brian Livingston is back on track 😛
Patroklus Murakami: item 3, financial reporting bill
Patroklus Murakami: others can probably explain this better than me
Patroklus Murakami: but the main aim
Patroklus Murakami: is to get some transparency in the way that CDS finances are spent
Patroklus Murakami: the chancellor’s office is fairly new
Sudane Erato: well… i’ve not been very familiar with this bill, its quite new to me
Patroklus Murakami: and some of us are concerned that expenditure, while on desirable things, is not as transparent as it could be
Patroklus Murakami: there’s no implied criticism here, it’s just about making things clearer
Patroklus Murakami waits for ppl to read the bill and absorb…
Sudane Erato: i have asked repeatedly over the years
Sudane Erato: for a finance group…
Conover’s Flight-Helper? 6.2.5.2 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
Patroklus Murakami: yay, wb jon!
Brian Livingston: wb jon
Sudane Erato: a small group just to familiarize themselves with such details
Jon Seattle: Thanks 🙂
Sudane Erato: i see no mechanism in this bill
Sudane Erato: and without a mechanism… how it it done?
Patroklus Murakami: jon, we moved on to item 3 for a discussion. we’ll take the vote on item 2 later
Jon Seattle: I think I came in in the middle
Sudane Erato: in addition… the last line is… inflamatory
Patroklus Murakami: what do u mean by ‘mechanism’ sudane?
Sudane Erato: what is the m echanism?
Sudane Erato: i ahve proposed a committee to over see this… to do exactly this
Patroklus Murakami: there’s a mechanism for reporting, that’s all that is needed
Sudane Erato: i see no committee proposed here
Sudane Erato: or any one, for that matter, except the chancellor mentioned
Patroklus Murakami: this isn’t really connected with the ‘finance committee’ idea
Sudane Erato: in that case, how will it be done?
Sudane Erato: please explain
Jon Seattle: Yes, this is just a reporting bill.
Patroklus Murakami: what jon said
Sudane Erato: the come and expnses are reported each month
Beathan Vale: I think it can be — the Chancellor has the power to appoint deputies — and probably would do so to assist in the Chancellor review
Jon Seattle: The chancellor is responsibile for implementation – as he should be in this case.
Beathan Vale: it is true that no mechanism is set up by the proposal — but the Chancellor can and should set one up
Brian Livingston: To whom is the report made? The RA during his monthly meeting and then released on the forums, or straight to the forums?
Sudane Erato: *shrug*… ok
Jon Seattle: Yes, I agree Beathan
Beathan Vale: also, we could create legislative office similar to the US OMB — with an RA member joining the Chancellor and the Treasurer — creating a 3 person committee
Sudane Erato: that seems to politicize the finance process
Sudane Erato: if thats what you want
Beathan Vale: just a thought I just had now — but I think we wshould consider it — that would give Sudane her committee and create a multi-branch connection on finance
Patroklus Murakami: this isn’t about the budget, this is about accounting for expenditure
Jon Seattle: I don’t see how making information public politicises anything, on the contrary.
Sudane Erato: that is the same
Sudane Erato: some information can and should be made public, and other not
Sudane Erato: some group must make that determination
Sudane Erato: otherwise, I have to
Sudane Erato: and thats not healthy
Patroklus Murakami: well, i understood the finance committee idea to be about planning (budget) rather than reporting (expenditure). this proposal is just about the latter
Jon Seattle: Pat, exactly
Sudane Erato: no, its really about taking responsibility
Sudane Erato: aboit more than one person having responsibility for something as important as our money
Sudane Erato: so it is primarily management
Sudane Erato: IMO
Jon Seattle: Of the information mentioned in this bill, Sudane. what would you propose we keep secret?
Sudane Erato: the specifics you mention are all suitably published, i agree
Sudane Erato: but there is a lot of $$ data
Sudane Erato: especially when we get into loans
Sudane Erato: and tier payments
Patroklus Murakami: i think this is really dealing with a separate issue sudane
Sudane Erato: i feel that the content of what you propose here should be determined by this finance comm
Patroklus Murakami: currently, we have money being expended by the Executive Branch (and no problem as far as I’m aware with that) but no mechanism for reporting to the RA. this bill creates one, that’s it
Sleazy Writer: This can be a start, and could be refined once such a committee is found
Sudane Erato: there is a monthly report of income and expenses
Jon Seattle: But does it cover what this bill would require?
Sudane Erato: it does not include the details of the line items you mention
Sudane Erato: it possibly could
Sudane Erato: but then,
Sudane Erato: why did you leave out other things?
Sudane Erato: what was the basis here?
Jon Seattle: What other things?
Jon Seattle: Would you like us to add something?
Sudane Erato: there are issues with improving our financial accountability
Sudane Erato: lets do it right
Sudane Erato: with a small group who will look at thwe whole picture
Sudane Erato: and determine what the data to publish
Sudane Erato: then. if you feel things are missing
Jon Seattle: Sudane, that group would still have to be accontable to the RA, would you agree?
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, if u want to propose your finance comittee idea separately that’s fine
Sudane Erato: you can appeal to that group, or fire them
Patroklus Murakami: but this proposal is not about that
Patroklus Murakami: it’s about reporting executive expenditure, that’s all
Sudane Erato: accountable to the RA is fine, of course
Sudane Erato: but Pat, the expenditure line items are reported…
Sudane Erato: you just want to add detail on certain selected lines
Sudane Erato: i think those lines are appropriate
Sudane Erato: but it skirts the issue
Sudane Erato: the issue is people taking responsibility for our finances
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, i really don’t understand waht your issue is with this. what do u want added to it?
Patroklus Murakami: what is missing
Sudane Erato: what is missing is a group, rather than just me, who will take the responsibility for managing and reporting on our money
Sudane Erato: with this bill, you simply add more reporting for me to do
Jon Seattle: it seems to me that that is an additional thing we should consider — a finiance committee, but it does not decrease the need for reporting
Sudane Erato: no it does not
Sudane Erato: some reporteing is done now
Jon Seattle: And the organization of that reporting is of course, the Chancellor’s responsibility
Sudane Erato: better reporting would be great
Sudane Erato: but it sure be a shared responsibility
Patroklus Murakami: i’d be interested to hear the views of other RA members on this
Patroklus Murakami: (and btw, I’m sufferign terrible lag 4 fps right now)
Beathan Vale: I agree with Sudane — we have put a lot of burden on her, and it would be best to share the load rather than abuse her competence and willingness
Brian Livingston: *nod*
Beathan Vale: I think that reporting is a good thing — but it is an added responsbility, doing nothing to lessen the load
Patroklus Murakami: how does this add to sudane’s tasks? the bill refers to teh chancellor
Sudane Erato: haha… and how does the chancellor get this info??
Patroklus Murakami: from the PIO for example
Sudane Erato: ???
Jon Seattle: Well, this is executive expendature, are you telling me that he does not have access to that information?
Patroklus Murakami: it’s about reporting the money they spend on our behalf
Sudane Erato: he has the same access right now that everyone does
Sleazy Writer: Sudane, don’t the payment machine make an automatic report for you?
Sleazy Writer: *doesn’t
Sudane Erato: reporting on money must come from where the money goes in and out
Jon Seattle: Sudane, that means he does not have the deails on what his office is spending?
Sudane Erato: otherwise it is hearsay
Sudane Erato: he requests that I pay somebody something for some purpose
Sudane Erato: i make that payment
Sudane Erato: he might request it, and i forget to pay it
Sudane Erato: then his data would be less useful than mine
Jon Seattle: Sudane, do you know for sure that all payments are processed through you? Even when the funds involved come from a third source?
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we could just cut to the issue? i.e. ‘why’ this bill is being presented? that might make things clearer
Sleazy Writer: >> You: Sudane, doesn’t the payment machine make an automatic report for you?
Sudane Erato: the payments better come thru “me”.. => the books
Sudane Erato: or else they are not community funds
Sudane Erato: i would be very unhappy if we were not accounting for all our fiunds
Sudane Erato: to say the least
Sudane Erato: and, Sleazym, yes, the payment system handles a huge proportion of the transactions
Jon Seattle: Sudane, say someone pays for something, the chancelor or some other individual, that involves an offical project. Would you know about it?
Patroklus Murakami: what about ‘committing’ funds with out authorisation? that is a developing issue
Sleazy Writer: Sudane, can you explain how much work this is for you?
Sudane Erato: if someone pays for something to someone else, without passing thru oir books, then that will have to be understodd as a personal transaction
Sudane Erato: if it is represented otherwise, that is fraud
Patroklus Murakami: what if the do it ‘on behalf of the CDS’?
Patroklus Murakami: *they
Sudane Erato: i think thats wrong
Sudane Erato: and should be absolutely prohibited
Sudane Erato: the opportunities for misuse are incredible
Sudane Erato: our money has to appear in out books
Sudane Erato: period!
Sleazy Writer: Why can’t you just hire 1 extra person without immediately talking about committees?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m calling time on this discussion at 1:30
Sudane Erato: beause its a responsibility issue
Sleazy Writer: Can you make it tangible for the RA *why* this is so much extra work? Doesn’t it overlap a lot with the administration that you already do?
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. some food for thought there
Brian Livingston: Fellow Citizens, I hate to duck out but I am feeling pretty dreadful and request ahtt a vote on this matter be moved toa 7 day
Patroklus Murakami: don’t go yet brian!
Brian Livingston: Err, I’ll try to hold out
Patroklus Murakami: we need to vote on 2 first
Brian Livingston: I thought taht was postponed for revisions?
Patroklus Murakami: can we take a vote on the amendment to groiup land ownership act?
Jon Seattle: Yes, please
Patroklus Murakami: this was teh bill i passed to you brian
Brian Livingston: Isit neccessary to include the providion for public review of records as part of this bill?
Brian Livingston: provision*
Patroklus Murakami: would it help to make that clear in the text?
Brian Livingston: I would say so, a mechanism for reporting of these notices
Patroklus Murakami: right. we’ll amend and resubmit next week
Patroklus Murakami: sorry to keep you brian 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hope you feel better soon
Sudane Erato: yes!
Sleazy Writer: get better man 🙂
Brian Livingston: No prob, I’m going to lie down and hope this headache passes
Jon Seattle: Indeed, hope you feel better!
Brian Livingston: Sorry to leave early and I’ll talk to you all later 😉
Sudane Erato: bye Brian
Alexicon Kurka: bye brian
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we table the financial reporting bill as well
Patroklus Murakami: until next time
Tanoujin Milestone: Bye, Brian! :–)
Jon Seattle: Yes, agreed
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: well, we are no longer quorate so I suggest we adjourn. perhaps we could thrash out the remaining issues on the forums?
Beathan Vale: second
Jon Seattle: Makes sense
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned
Sudane Erato: ty all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty everyone for coming 🙂
Jon Seattle: Thans everyone 🙂
Sleazy Writer: thanks
Tanoujin Milestone: Bye 🙂
The meeting closed at 13:27 Linden time.

Permalink.

Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: How many is quorum?
Sudane Erato: 4
Sudane Erato: no Pat today?
Jon Seattle: Ah, so we are in business. Yes, Pat is away this week.
Jon Seattle: This meeting will be a bit shorter as I have a RL presentation to run to just after.
Jon Seattle: Please touch the recorder and the wine jar has today’s documents
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Yogeswari Padar has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi has indicated consent to be recorded.
Leon Ash: Evening everyone
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Since Pat is away, he has asked that we work in seven-day mode
Alexicon Kurka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: hello all
Jon Seattle: Hi Michel
ThePrincess? Parisi: hello michel
Tanoujin Milestone: Hi Michel
Alexicon Kurka: hi leon michel
Jon Seattle: First item on the agenda is the proposal to alter the manner in which..
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: This was tabled for revision. Have the changes been completed?
Jon Seattle: Does anyone want to discuss amendments?
Jon Seattle: Brian, Sudane?
Brian Livingston: I’ve jsut gotten the noecard now so I am not prepared to comment
Jon Seattle: Hi Leon 🙂
Sudane Erato: well, i’m not aware of any changes made since the last meeting
Sudane Erato: there has been a proposal by Berathan
Sudane Erato: Beathan
Sudane Erato: to ssystematize the way land is reclaimed
Jon Seattle: yes, is Beathan’s proposal posted somewhere?
Sudane Erato: i have it… otherwise, i don’t know
Sudane Erato: it is a routine system… with notices
Sudane Erato: its very good
Jon Seattle: Is it short enough to paste?
Sudane Erato: just a large burden of notices
Jon Seattle: Or we can distribute a notecard
Leon Ash: Just to make sure noone thinks I’m rude. Evening everyone. Not sure my first greeting ended up in the public 🙂
Sudane Erato: hold on… i’ll find it… didn’t know i was presenting it
Jon Seattle: Sudane, sorry about that, just lacking Beathan 🙂
Jon Seattle: Thank you!
Tanoujin Milestone: thanks
Brian Livingston: thanks
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you very much
Sudane Erato: whew! 🙂
Jon Seattle: So this requires, really, three months before the land is reclaimed.
Sudane Erato: lots of people 🙂
Jon Seattle: Is that the same as now?
Sudane Erato: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: wow thats a long time to eat the tiers
Sudane Erato: which is what it effectively has taken anyway
Sudane Erato: i never felt right to rush someone out
Jon Seattle: I propose that we vote on the amendment and then vote on the bill.
ThePrincess? Parisi: weare very generous
Jon Seattle: Sudane, are there any changes in this you would make?
Sudane Erato: well, i discussed it briefly with Beathan
Sudane Erato: and the only issue is the burden of notices
Sudane Erato: but… that can be fixed… we both agreed
Sudane Erato: thius the “automation” clause
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Any other discussion on this?
Brian Livingston: Ok, so an extension of the current paymet suystem, whcih reminds us via IM?
Sudane Erato: thats the idea, yes
Jon Seattle: I move that we vote on the amendment. Any seconds?
Sleazy Writer: Evening Beathan
Brian Livingston: Hi Beathan
Beathan Vale: hello all
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi beathan
Leon Ash: Hi Beathan
Beathan Vale: big turnout today
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Hi beathan! We were just talking about you
Tanoujin Milestone: Beathan 🙂
Sleazy Writer: your reclaiming amendment/procedure is up for voting
Beathan Vale: kk
Beathan Vale: any questions I missed?
Jon Seattle: Please click the recorder and the wine jar for documents.
Jon Seattle: We are about to vote on your amendment
Rose Springvale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: on land reclamation
Jon Seattle: I moved that we vote, does anyone want to second?
Brian Livingston: Seconded
Jon Seattle: Everyone in favor (RA members) please say Aye. This is the amendment on reclamation.
Beathan Vale: aye
Jon Seattle: aye
Brian Livingston: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: no
Leon Ash votes Aye
Jon Seattle: Since we have a quarum I am going to take the bill as amended.
Jon Seattle: Any discussion before we vote on the bill?
Jon Seattle: (period passes here..)
Gxeremio Dimsum has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: I move that we vote on the bill “Proposal to alter the manner in which citizens may sell their land in the CDS”
Jon Seattle: Anyone want to second that?
Beathan Vale: second
Jon Seattle: Please vote aye or no..
Jon Seattle: Aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Sudane Erato: and, clarification… this includes the “Reclamation” ammendment?
Jon Seattle: Yes, this includes the reclamation amendment
Brian Livingston: aye
Leon Ash vote Aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: no
Jon Seattle: Okay, one item finished 🙂
Beathan Vale: brb
Jon Seattle: Pat’s agenda says “citizenship act” but I assume he means the group act
Brian Livingston: I as going to inquire about that
Brian Livingston: was*
Jon Seattle: Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act
Jon Seattle: I think, we started discussion last week.
Jon Seattle: Lets continue discussion..
Beathan Vale: back
Jon Seattle: Any comments on this?
Jon Seattle: I do like that it requires group members to show up to pay their fees each month. It seems the least that could be expected..
Brian Livingston: I would like an amendment stipulating that the lists of citizens by virtue of group land ownership be available for public inspection
Brian Livingston: Perhaps as part of paragraph 2
Beathan Vale: I think that this bill is a good compromise step towards an expanded citizenship without opening the door wide to the thousande firends and alts problem
Jon Seattle: Brian, do you have some text for the proposed amendment?
Beathan Vale: Brian — good idea — but isn’t that already done with the genearl citizen list?
Leon Ash: I support Brian’s suggestion that the group land ownership be available for public inspection
Beathan Vale: I would not want to stignatize citizens who are members of a grou by creating a special separate list of them
Jon Seattle: Well, Brian’s proposal would like citizens that are citizens by virtue of group ownership I think — an extra “flag”
Tanoujin Milestone: if they had a paymentbox like everyone else?
Jon Seattle: *indicate
Jon Seattle: Tan, yes, they would under the original bill.
Tanoujin Milestone: ty
Beathan Vale: I need to think about that amendment a bit
Jon Seattle: Should we vote on the amendment or put this off for seven day? I am happy with either.
Leon Ash: I think it would be inappropriate to vote prior to the ‘ammendements’ added?
ThePrincess? Parisi: i agree with Leon
Jon Seattle: yes, we are not yet talking about voting on the bill
Brian Livingston: Actually, it could simply be that the official land deed lists all of the group members on it, if at all possible
Jon Seattle: just on the amendment.
Brian Livingston: Hmm
Beathan Vale: on further thought – -I oppose the amendment as it would potentially stigmatize citizens sho are citizens by virtue of group membership — but I would support the bill even if amended
Sudane Erato: is the ammendment in print?
Brian Livingston: Not yet, only in theory really
Sleazy Writer: Or could someone please paste the amendment in the chat again please?
Jon Seattle: Brian do you have some text? I can copy from the transcript
Brian Livingston: The ammendment would adda t the end of Paragraph two: LIsts provided to the Treasurer will becoem a matter of public record, available for inspection upon request.
Brian Livingston: Wow, typo hell there
Sudane Erato: such a citizenship list is currently posted on the website
Sudane Erato: we try to keep it up to date
Beathan Vale: yes — but this one would be a separate list of citizens who are citizens by virtue of group memebership, yes?
Jon Seattle: lol, we can clean it up later. Do you mean that it should indicate who has citizenship just by virtue of group ownership?
Beathan Vale: or a lsit of citizens who are also members of groups …
Beathan Vale: I’m not sure
Brian Livingston: No, not a lsit of just group members but rather the actual declarations. There is a distinction of sorts
Sudane Erato: thats, thats an odd requirement
ThePrincess? Parisi: why are you so concerned about that beathan?
Beathan Vale: I don’t like the idea of special lists of citizens that divide people out — it either smacks of privilege or of blacklisting
Sudane Erato: i agree
Michel Manen: same here
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you me too
Brian Livingston: Hmm, not the intention of the amendment, but i do concede your point
Rose Springvale: point of clarification?
Michel Manen: all this of course would be avoided by a citizenship based ona a fee lol
Jon Seattle: Brian, do you want to withdraw or continue with the proposed amendment?
Rose Springvale: does this mean that any land can support as many citizens as it can be divided by 128 m?
Brian Livingston: So under this bill, to clarify, without any amendments, each group member who is a citizen by virtue of said membership will have a payment box and be listed on the CDS website along side all other citizens, correct?
Beathan Vale: and is owned by a group
Brian Livingston is sufferign terrible chat lag
Michel Manen: if we disconnect citizenship and land ownership this is no longer an issue and we can administer both rationally and efficeintly
ThePrincess? Parisi: good question rose
Leon Ash: I’m sorry, I assumed the list of all residents would be public? Saw no divide in the proposal?
Jon Seattle: Brian, yes that is my understanding
Beathan Vale: MM — but that is a bad idea for many other reasons
Sudane Erato: Leon, such a list is already public
Beathan Vale: Leon – -there are already is such a list
Brian Livingston: In that case, I do withdraw my proposal as it is a mute issue
Beathan Vale: kk
Michel Manen: lol jusst an aside i dont want to start a debate
Gxeremio Dimsum: What if one group member doesn’t pay on their part of the group costs?
Sudane Erato: thats in there, Gx
Beathan Vale: Gx — we can use a process simular to the reclamation proces we just passed in such case
Michel Manen: yes sudane i saw you updated the list thank you . its seems were now down nto 67 citizens
Beathan Vale: notice — provisional citizenship, ultimate loss of citizenship
Rose Springvale: hmm
Gxeremio Dimsum: and the land itself?
Jon Seattle: Since the amendment is withdrawn, any discussion on the bill itself?
Rose Springvale: no one responded to my question
Beathan Vale: land payment would be a separate issue — the gorup would have to keep land fees current to support its citizens
Sudane Erato: well, Beathan, the Reclamation procedure would not be able to be applied exactly in this situation
Sudane Erato: sibnce the land is group owned
Beathan Vale: Sudane — true — it would have to be adopted
Beathan Vale: and the Estate Owner should not be the person charged with it
Beathan Vale: Maybe a special master of groups
Sudane Erato: but there is a clause in there to deal with this
Beathan Vale: a new position under the Chancellor
Leon Ash: On apoint of clarity. I’m assuming each ‘citizen’ who is a citizen by group membership would be listed as a citizen?
Jon Seattle: Rose, I am not sure why can answer your question other than the text of the bill. Please click the wine jar for all documents.
Rose Springvale: i have it jon
Rose Springvale: just trying to clarify
Rose Springvale: and i have another question
Sleazy Writer: Leon > of course, why not?
Leon Ash: And each citizen has an amount due ‘monthly’, is this publicly listed somewhere?
Jon Seattle: yes, Rose, please go ahead.
Rose Springvale: in my group, i have a partner who is very intermittent in his logging in.. jeremy
Rose Springvale: yet he has a substantial investment in the land
Rose Springvale: not sure what happens if he doesn’t log in to pay his 100 L
Rose Springvale: to my group or land
Rose Springvale: are we in default?
Sudane Erato: there can be group members who are not necessarily citizens
Rose Springvale: hmm
Beathan Vale: nothing should happen to the group or land — only to Jemery’s citizen status — yes?
Brian Livingston: Leon> I would assume that would be available on the land fee list that lists how much each citizen owes
Rose Springvale: yet
Rose Springvale: if he is going to own land here
Rose Springvale: and has invested
Jon Seattle: My understanding of the bill (and this is just from reading it) is that if that person is a citizen they would have to show up to pay once a month or else trigger the standard procedure.
Rose Springvale: why should he be deprived of the right to vote?
Rose Springvale: not practical for our situation
Rose Springvale: but w/e
Rose Springvale: there is always discussion about how the forum is another way to participate
Sudane Erato: well, we have no other way of knowing that he remains a citizen
Rose Springvale: doing this means that logging into the game is necessary
Sudane Erato: thats the point of the bill…
Rose Springvale: i see
Sudane Erato: if another method is agreed upon… great!
Beathan Vale: Rose — I am a bit uncomfortable with that specific obigation
Michel Manen: this is btw one ofthe reasons i resigned fro mthe RA in May
Sudane Erato: its just that i have been asked each election cycle
Sudane Erato: to indicate who is a citizen
Sudane Erato: and i have no idea except for those who pay each month
Rose Springvale: hmm
Jon Seattle: Lets discuss this for five minutes, and if we are not ready to vote by then, pass it to seven day
Rose Springvale: except as we tell you
Michel Manen: restriction of citizenship rights and membership is just not acceptable in my opinion – and this inposition of a physicala reqjuirement to paay every m onth does just that
Gxeremio Dimsum: Is there any way for a citizen to pay ahead on her fees?
Sudane Erato: exactly
Rose Springvale: or pay from off world
Sudane Erato: no, not at this time
Sudane Erato: neither
Jon Seattle: Any more discussion?
Rose Springvale: i’d just like to say
Rose Springvale: that it seems to me if we allow group ownership
Sleazy Writer: Rose, if Jeremy wants to be IN second life, what’s wrong with asking him to log INTO second life? this is as logical as it gets 🙂
Rose Springvale: it makes more sense to have a group spokesman
Rose Springvale: well sleazy
Michel Manen: no i dont agree
Rose Springvale: jeremy travels abroad a lot
Rose Springvale: and he has a computer that crashes with every sl update
Michel Manen: these are entirely exclusioary and restrictive measures
Rose Springvale: and he has been ill for over six weeks
Rose Springvale: so it isn’t practical for him to go through the effort of logging in
Beathan Vale: MM 0 I still see this as an expansion of citizenship, although with limits
Rose Springvale: when he can still communiicate by emale and read forums
Michel Manen: designed toi keep down menmergship numbers and strictly control who joinss and who doesnt by imposing a physical payment requirement
Sudane Erato: not even once a month?
Beathan Vale: a small step forward is still a step forward, yes?
Rose Springvale: sudane, the reality of sl
Rose Springvale: is that if you could just log in once a month
Sudane Erato: seems like a pretty small requirement to demonstrate participation
Michel Manen: and i think its entirely conterproductive and frankly, undemocratic
Rose Springvale: withohut updating softwayre
Rose Springvale: whatever
Rose Springvale: okay
Beathan Vale: ye s– MM – you said that when you resigned… it is as silly a position today as it was then
Jon Seattle: I want to hear from RA members only for this next question. Please indicate if you feel we are ready to vote on this bill. Yes or no. If no, we will pass it to seven day.
Michel Manen: well then Beathtan we disagrree – not the first or last time
Beathan Vale: yes
Jon Seattle: Yes, I am ready to vote.
ThePrincess? Parisi: i see your point rose, but we do need a way to know that citizens are active and valid..
Brian Livingston: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do have sticks with me boys 🙂
Beathan Vale: yes — theP — exactly
Jon Seattle: ol
Michel Manen: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: but it might not be through land
ThePrincess? Parisi: maybe there is another way
Michel Manen: of course
Jon Seattle: Leon?
Beathan Vale: TheP — also right — but I think that can be worked out through future refinement of citizenship — this discussion is ongoing, and the definition of a citizen is a process that will not end with passage of this bill
Michel Manen: well we cant really dissociate one from the other
Gxeremio Dimsum: perhaps we should find a way to move our web discussion forum entirely in-world, since that is the primary means of community participation for many people.
ThePrincess? Parisi: shall we work on that then Beathan?
Michel Manen: and enact resrictive and discriminatory legislation
Jon Seattle: Well, I move we vote to approve this amendment; Any one want to second?
Michel Manen: on the basis that sometime in the futere we’ll get around to fixinf it
ThePrincess? Parisi: seems we are still discussing Jon
ThePrincess? Parisi: you said if we are then we will wait
Beathan Vale: GX — I would favor an amendment to this that make psoting on the forum an acceptable form of participation – -as in log in once per month or post on the forum once per month
Beathan Vale: MM — that’s life
Beathan Vale: at least — that’s living life in a wise way
Jon Seattle: ThePrincess?, I am calling a halt to discussion for this meeting and moment.. as we just decided to vote
Michel Manen: no theres nothing wiwse abotu thtat Beathan
ThePrincess? Parisi: let me read back, sorry
Leon Ash: Sorry, I can’t see any voting taking place, but I vote Aye
Jon Seattle: I move that we pass the amendment in question. Once again, anyone willing to second that motion?
Brian Livingston: The amendment to 5-9, correct?
Beathan Vale: second
Jon Seattle: Thanks Beathan 🙂
Jon Seattle: Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act
Jon Seattle: Please vote yea or no
Beathan Vale: aye
Jon Seattle: votes aye
Leon Ash votes aye
Brian Livingston: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: votes no
Jon Seattle: Lets quickly jump to the teleportation act, the last item on the agenda
Jon Seattle: I have only a few minutes and then must run.
ThePrincess? Parisi: Teleportation Impovement Act , Actually
Brian Livingston: This seems like legislation that is going to require more discussion than a few mintues, especially given that it has been introduced formalyl for less than a day
Jon Seattle: The Princess, would you like to introduce this bill?
ThePrincess? Parisi: we have a citizen who is very intersted in this bill.. one of many
Jon Seattle: Brian, yes, I suspect we will just start the discussion today
Brian Livingston stands corrected, just over a day
ThePrincess? Parisi: one who is here today.. and though i have had many talk to me about this iissue befroe this bill was writlen
Beathan Vale: I think that this idea has been bounced around for a long time — long enough to vote on
ThePrincess? Parisi: Alex .. thanks fo rbeing here
ThePrincess? Parisi: excuse me ?
Alexicon Kurka: I think this is not the first time u discuss the manner of teleportation
Alexicon Kurka: it is a returning subject
Alexicon Kurka: and the proposal is for a trial
ThePrincess? Parisi: forgood reason
Beathan Vale: and this bill sets up a test case
Alexicon Kurka: I have just moved in and have negative effects already on my commercial activities
ThePrincess? Parisi: and it has NOT been discussed in this session has it?
Brian Livingston: If this bill is passed, I see no reason for a difference in tier costs though, and believe they should be reassessed
Beathan Vale: it does not permanently change anything – -it is a very modest and measured way to testing this concept
Alexicon Kurka: and I think the tiers could be discussed as well as part of the final solution
Beathan Vale: yes — tiers should not be tied to a test statute
Michel Manen: lol we never have final solutions in CDS lol
Jon Seattle: Brian I agree ultimatly, though this is just experimental
Alexicon Kurka: the forum keeps its strategic positioning anyway, all roads lead to the fotum
Alexicon Kurka: forum*
ThePrincess? Parisi: the central hub remains tied to the land advertisments
ThePrincess? Parisi: so there is still advantage
Brian Livingston: Now, from my limited knowledge of Estate settings, there is a simple check box that is set to allow for Direct TP, correct?
Jon Seattle: Yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: true
Alexicon Kurka: 🙂
Alexicon Kurka: sl can be simple some times
Jon Seattle: This would involve turning on that feature I assume
Beathan Vale: so — should be make this a paid service — a surcharge on tier for the rithgt to direct teleport?
Brian Livingston: This bill states that only LMs and TP requests would be granted a direct TP, all others would rotue hrought he central TP point. Is that how this would work?
Beathan Vale: hmmm … or would that be a chill on commerce …
Brian Livingston: I thoguht direct TP would mean you can truely TP into any spot that the landowner has not deemed off limits
ThePrincess? Parisi: ? beathan
Jon Seattle: lol, I can see this getting complex Beathan
Beathan Vale: TheP — just spitballing here — I still support the bill as presented
Alexicon Kurka: brian, I think that is the intention indeed
ThePrincess? Parisi doesnt like spitballs
ThePrincess? Parisi: gross
Brian Livingston: But is it possible?
Jon Seattle: Brian, if someone went to “Colonia Nova” in general they would land at the landing point
Beathan Vale: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: true Jon
Jon Seattle: Brian, I depends on how they found their destination
Jon Seattle: It
Beathan Vale: spitballing — To make a suggestion loosely, often one that goes against common logic.
Leon Ash: Could this be made a decision of all the current CN residents? Maybe a forum based vote? Or is that no feasible?
Jon Seattle: lol,Beathan
Rose Springvale: as far as the ‘surcharge”
ThePrincess? Parisi: thanks i still dont like spti
Leon Ash: not*
ThePrincess? Parisi: spit
Gxeremio Dimsum: but if tps are turned on, and i use the map and click on a location, i would go directly to that location without a landmark or TP request.
Rose Springvale: LL charges for classified ads
Jon Seattle: Since this is just an experiment, I personally support it.
ThePrincess? Parisi: please let rose talk
Jon Seattle: I do think that Brian is right, we have to revist our tier policies if we make this permenant
Rose Springvale: no, that’s all i had to say. Anyone who puts a classified in to get people to their store has to pay already
Rose Springvale: i think Alex had statistics on that
ThePrincess? Parisi: we can easily track traffic..
Brian Livingston: Now, I will say out of personal experience that when I palced a classified, it didn’t show on the map which I was told had to do with the fact that Direct TP is not enabled. Is that the case?
Jon Seattle: Are we ready to vote? RA members, please say yes or no.
Beathan Vale: yes
Jon Seattle: I am ready
ThePrincess? Parisi: i belive CNs traffic will rise..and that is the main compaint
Rose Springvale: brian, i know what that is now .. will tell you afterwards
Alexicon Kurka: true I pay a subtier on my classifieds, and there is difference in the number of tp from there and the number of visitors in my plot
Jon Seattle: ThePrincess?, Leon, Brian?
ThePrincess? Parisi: of course
Brian Livingston: i suppose
ThePrincess? Parisi: i have done some citizen polling
Jon Seattle: Pricess, do you move that this be adopted?
Jon Seattle: *Princess
ThePrincess? Parisi: The
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Beathan Vale: I second
Jon Seattle: Good, please vote Aye or no..
Beathan Vale: aye
Jon Seattle: votes aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: votes aye
Leon Ash votes aye
Brian Livingston: aye
Tanoujin Milestone: Hello Gwyneth 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi hi 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: hello gweyn
Jon Seattle: Good 🙂 I would go though asking people to vote on adjournment, but I really have to run
Jon Seattle: Hi Gwyn 🙂
Beathan Vale: Hi Gwyn — I’m sorry I missed your SLBA presentation
Alexicon Kurka: hi gwyneth
Sudane Erato: so that last measure is passed?
Jon Seattle: So I ask your forgiveness, but the meeting is adjouned 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s ok, Beathan there will be more!
Rose Springvale: thank you all for this teleportion improvement
Sudane Erato: and we should reset the sim?
Rose Springvale: i think it will help eveyrone
Alexicon Kurka: 🙂
Jon Seattle: Sudane, yes I beleive it is.
ThePrincess? Parisi: THAT YOU JON
Alexicon Kurka: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: yay.. thanks everyone
Brian Livingston: Hmm, we’ll see in three months
Alexicon Kurka: thak you all for the adecuate anticipation
Rose Springvale: don’t worry brian 🙂
The meeting closed at 13:18 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 185, 178)

Meeting on 2007-10-28
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent for the transcript
Patroklus Murakami: notecards are in the dispenser on the table
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: dnate has asked if we could take the chancellor’s questions first
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok sorry
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
Patroklus Murakami: hi theprincess 🙂
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: loving the moves btw 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: well thats me.. lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: yaya ThePrincess? 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: chairdancing, that’s novel 🙂
Jon Seattle: hi ThePrincess?
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok ill go and come back
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: my club opens today
Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have questions for dnate? it’s some time since we last had a Q&A session
Brian Livingston is sincerely worried about being smacked by a flailing arm :p
Sudane Erato: hehe
Beathan Vale: brb
Patroklus Murakami: i have some, if no one else wants to jump in 🙂
Brian Livingston: Go for it Pat
Jon Seattle listens
Patroklus Murakami: dnate, could you update us on progress on the web portal?
Dnate Mars: Actually, not really
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: that’s my first question. i’ll ask the others after 🙂
Dnate Mars: I need to get an update form some other people before I can really give any more info one what is happening with it
ThePrincess? Parisi: can someone tp me
Dnate Mars: I will find out what I can within the week
Patroklus Murakami: well, the reason i ask is that the bill was passed some time ago and it was clear what needed to take place. has anything happened on it?
Beathan Vale: back
Dnate Mars: Some has, but others have been taking the lead on the project
Patroklus Murakami: the bill anticipated having legislation drawn up and enacted by now. perhaps that was a bit ambitious 🙂
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale: I always opposed that part of the bill
Dnate Mars: Getting any group of people to do much is a tough task in of itself
Patroklus Murakami: well, it does need to be taken forward. when do you think you might have more progress to report dnate?
Dnate Mars: I know that some work has been done, but I will find out what the status is, hopefully this week
Sudane Erato: hi Yogeswari 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty, that would be very welcome
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi yogeswari
Yogeswari Padar: hi all
Tanoujin Milestone: i say hi all too 🙂
Sleazy Writer: Hi Yoge & Tan
Patroklus Murakami: anyone else have questions for dnate? otherwise i’ll continue 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: (hi to everyone)
ThePrincess? Parisi: will you be a pumkin after halloween?
Jon Seattle: Hi Yoge!
Jon Seattle: Hi Tan 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry
Dnate Mars: It remains to be seen 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi winks
Beathan Vale: brb
Brian Livingston: brb
Patroklus Murakami: my second question is about the government question hour. we had two really sucessful ones a while back. when do u think we might be able to hold another? the original bill envisaged weekly question hours
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do think that is a good idea
Sleazy Writer nods from audience 🙂
Brian Livingston: back
Dnate Mars: I think weekly is just too much, it is really hard to get everyone there for an hour
ThePrincess? Parisi: wb b
Patroklus Murakami: i thought they were very helpful, we got good attendance and interest from people
ThePrincess? Parisi: monthly?
Dnate Mars: but I do hope to get them to be at least twice a month form here on hout
Dnate Mars: out*
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think one time a month is enough
Patroklus Murakami: that would be excellent. i look forward to attending those
Dnate Mars: Octoberfest sort of screwed up Oct planning, but I hope to have one this week
Patroklus Murakami: ty dnate 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: final question from me regards franchulate applications. we won’t be going through the detail in RA meetings I hope but, do you have all you need to progress the applications that have come through dnate?
Dnate Mars: Well, I am still processing them, but it seems good so far
Beathan Vale: back\
Dnate Mars: They will be finished within the 30 days that I have accourding to the Law
Patroklus Murakami: ok. good to hear that 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: any questions from anyone else for our chancellor before we move on?
Patroklus Murakami: (we swapped items 1 &2 btw)
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you forbeing here dnate
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, well shall we set 25 Nov as the date for the next Chancellor’s questions?
Dnate Mars: oh, that won’t work
Patroklus Murakami: 18?
Dnate Mars: that is Thanksgiving in the US for me…
ThePrincess? Parisi: and me
Dnate Mars: before or after is fine with me
Patroklus Murakami: i imagine we might be thin on the ground that day!
Sudane Erato: yes, our big turkey slaughter day
Brian Livingston: Woo!
ThePrincess? Parisi: and big bellys
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: and we havelots of pumpkin pie..
Patroklus Murakami: let’s say 18 Nov then. and ty to dnate for coming and answering questions today
Dnate Mars: eep!
ThePrincess? Parisi: yeaah!!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Dnate Mars: as long as it doesn’t use my head….
Dnate Mars: 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: can we turn to the ‘financial reporting bill’ now?
ThePrincess? Parisi: well dnate
ThePrincess? Parisi gets serious
Dnate Mars: Ok, I must run. I will see you all later
Sudane Erato: bye 🙂
Tanoujin Milestone: see you, chef 🙂
Sleazy Writer: see ya!
Patroklus Murakami: bye 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
Sleazy Writer: chef de cuisine?
Jon Seattle: See you 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: who would like to introduce this bill?
Sudane Erato: its the same as last week, no?
Patroklus Murakami: yes sudane
Jon Seattle: I have a question. Sudane, is there are legilation that has been submitted that would establish financial oversight — the committee you mentioned.
Sudane Erato: no, not that i know of
Jon Seattle: (It as been introduced a couple of times now.. 😀 )
Sudane Erato: although I have brought it up as a topic before
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: let’s try to keep those issue separate
Patroklus Murakami: we don’t have a bill proposing a finance committee before us today
Patroklus Murakami: but we do have a bill regarding transparency in the use of funds by the executive
Patroklus Murakami: i’d prefer it if we could focus on the merits and problems with this bill rather than the wider set of issues
Sudane Erato: question
Patroklus Murakami: yes, sudane?
Sudane Erato: it seems to be quite clear that All Income is required to be listed… does that include tier?
Sleazy Writer: I think the bill can be amended to exclude that, or only include a total for that, right?
Jon Seattle: Yes, my preference would be for a total only.
Patroklus Murakami: ‘all income… by the executive branch’ suggests that it includes tier payments as the EO is part of the executive branch. i think that’s correct, isn’t it?
Beathan Vale: I prefer total as well
ThePrincess? Parisi: why not the tiers?
Jon Seattle: Certainly not by individual
ThePrincess? Parisi: there have been tier problems right?
Beathan Vale: but not tier-by-tier — but as a lump sum
Sudane Erato: but everything else requested seems to be by individual ietm, no?
Patroklus Murakami: though i don’t think that was the intention of the bill 🙂
Beathan Vale: treat indiv tiers as payment to the land owner — and the report item as the single itel payment of th elandowner to the CDS
Jon Seattle: Sudane, one thing we want to protect against is finding, somwhere down the road, as I understand we did with UZ that we have been receiving financial contributions that have not been make public.
Sudane Erato: the Land Owner… the EO… needs only to receive enough funds to pay the LL tier
Sudane Erato: the amounts are not the same
Jon Seattle: In the case of tier it is a contractual
ThePrincess? Parisi: well i am not usre if this is relevant, but how about when teirs are not paid, i have a anticdotal .. unconfirmed that tiers dont get paid all the time and not mentioned does this matter
Patroklus Murakami: is the problem that this would require too much book-keeping? i.e. unnecessary work when the real issue is with relation to gifts and payments?
Sudane Erato: the bookkeeping is already done
Sleazy Writer: example: 3rd party funding for events could be very useful, but there needs to be some reviewing of this
Patroklus Murakami: do we need to know on a month by month basis who is behind with their rent? seems a bit too much like public shaming
Sudane Erato: and all “gifts”, should there actually be any, are already recorded
Sudane Erato: what is “3rd party funding for events”?
Patroklus Murakami: sleazy? could you elaborate?
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, i imagine that means when some 3rd party pays for an event to be held in the CDS as a ‘CDS event’
Patroklus Murakami: hopefully sleazy can correct me if my interpretation is incorrect
ThePrincess? Parisi: i tihnk we need to know who is behind even if it is nto shared with the publuc
Sudane Erato: i would say that nothing falls into that catagory unless the funds go thru our books
Sudane Erato: in which case the information is available
Beathan Vale: Sleazy — unless we receive rent for the space — what is the income to the CDS from such events?
Beathan Vale: seems revenue neutral to me
ThePrincess? Parisi: most venues have tip jars.. we dont
ThePrincess? Parisi: when i go to live events
ThePrincess? Parisi: here we just tip the performers
Sleazy Writer is absent (minded)
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol sleazy
Sleazy Writer: (yes I mean that when a 3rd party funds a ‘CDS event’, there needs to be someone reviewing that, I guess this bill means the RA wants to do it for free! 😉 )
Patroklus Murakami: is there an issue with including tier payments? can we just insert “(bar the monthly fees)” after ‘income’?
Patroklus Murakami: hmmm. everyone’s very quiet today 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: is it because this bill is uncontroversial?
ThePrincess? Parisi: that woudl be a first
Sudane Erato: well, you all know that it makes no sense to me
Beathan Vale: well — we’ve discussed this bill twice already
Patroklus Murakami: ok, are we ready to vote then? please say aye or nay to taking a vote
Beathan Vale: aye
Jon Seattle: Let me propose one small amendment
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Jon Seattle: Aftet the first paragraph, add: The report should include the total tier received, but need not list it by individual.
Jon Seattle: otherwise aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: can we vote that way?
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: jon 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i probably shouldn’t take an amendment in the middle of a vote but.. is that acceptable?
Beathan Vale: I support that amendment — and this bill in principle — but I think that the financial reports Sundae preps atm are already useful and detailed — an I don’t want to increase the burden of her job without giving her more help by forming a finanacial committee — therefore, even as amended, I will vote nay on this bill on the terms presented
Patroklus Murakami: right, let’s vote on the bill as amended by jon
Patroklus Murakami: please say aye or nay
Jon Seattle: votes aye
Beathan Vale: nay – for reasons stated
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Brian Livingston: nay, for the reasons stated by Beathan
ThePrincess? Parisi: eh leon is online
Patroklus Murakami: okay, that’s 3-2 and we await leon and bromo’s votes by 7-day
Brian Livingston: Hi Leon 🙂
Leon Ash: Evening everyone
Patroklus Murakami: hi leon. welcome 🙂 did u get caught by the time change?
Tanoujin Milestone: Leon 🙂
Jon Seattle: Hi Leon,
Leon Ash: Seems like it Pat 🙁
Patroklus Murakami: leon, we just took a vote on the financial reporting bill, as amended by jon
Patroklus Murakami: i’m not going to make you vote on it now! you only just got here
Leon Ash: I completely forgot that SL time wouldn’t move an hour as well 🙂
Leon Ash: let me just look through it quickly
Patroklus Murakami: are you happy to cast your vote over the next 7 days? or mad keen to do it now?
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: just let me find jon’s amendment
Patroklus Murakami: “Jon Seattle: Aftet the first paragraph, add: The report should include the total tier received, but need not list it by individual.”
Jon Seattle: amendment: The report should include the total tier received, but not list it by individual.
Leon Ash: Ooops, wrong window. I vote in favour of the bill, ie. Aye
Patroklus Murakami: ty leon 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: that’s 4-2 and we await bromo’s vote. but with a majority, it passes
Patroklus Murakami: i have no further items on today’s agenda. i propose we adjourn. okay?
Jon Seattle: s 🙂
Brian Livingston: second
Jon Seattle: *yes
Beathan Vale: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok and grand opening of my club lips if anyone wants to pop in .. DJ Bells is there now
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: now, let those who wish to go and party!
The meeting closed at 12:58 Linden time.

Permalink.

Patroklus Murakami: ok recording 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: let’s begin
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: pls click the recorder yada yada yada and get a notecard agenda from the wooden box on the table
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: first item – budget and process
Patroklus Murakami: sudane has reminded us that we have not yet had a budget for this term
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we would like to have one 🙂
Jon Seattle: Indeed
Patroklus Murakami: so can we agree to request a budget from our treasurer?
Patroklus Murakami waits for people to say ‘yes’
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Leon Ash: yes
Jon Seattle: well, I think it may be something the chancellor should oversee
Jon Seattle: yes
Patroklus Murakami: well lets move on to process
Jon Seattle: it really is the operations budget, and thus deals with issues that have to do with the entire executive branch
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: there does not seem to be one. at least none from the laws and constitution that i could find
Patroklus Murakami: how do you think we ought to set the budget? what should the process be?
Leon Ash: Does anyone know how it has been done it the past?
Jon Seattle: Has the RA every had to request a budget before? Or has it always been prepared by the executive?
Patroklus Murakami: good qn leon 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: if sudane were here she could probably tell us
ThePrincess? Parisi: shes at guild
Patroklus Murakami: ah yes. they’re still debating the AM covenants
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Jon Seattle: Pat, during your prior session in the RA how was it donw?
Jon Seattle: *done
Patroklus Murakami: hi MT 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i can’t recall right now jon
Jon Seattle: Hi MT 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i seem to recall that a budget ‘appeared’ and we approved it
Patroklus Murakami: that’s about it 🙁
Patroklus Murakami: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: what do we think ought to happen?
Jon Seattle: The initial operations budget should be presented by the executive at the bigninng of the session. The RA making its revisions and then passing it as a bill.
Patroklus Murakami: shd the budget be based on a pre-budget discussion in the RA? that would allow the new RA to outline its priorities for expenditure
Jon Seattle: Most of the budget is routine I think, mainly dealing with tier and land sales, etc.
Leon Ash: Pat, I believe that we should discuss costs of upcoming plans prior to the budget, i.e. a pre-budget discussion.
Patroklus Murakami: yes. that’s true. but this RA has apportioned an events budget and future RAs may wish to set out their spending plans before the Treasurer/Exec puts pen to paper
Leon Ash: That way we have more knowledge about the budget so we can make an informed discion ? And now I can’t spell
ThePrincess? Parisi: can we see the last budget? does anyone have that
Patroklus Murakami: leon, i agree. i think a pre-budget discussion would be helpful
Jon Seattle: I have an old one I think. Let me see.
ThePrincess? Parisi: and i like to look at the previous .. and see what came of those numbers thank you
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you very much
Jon Seattle: lol, I found the same one that you found
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i just handed out the last budget i had in my inventory
Patroklus Murakami: i think it would be more helpful to give direction about the discretionary spending before this is drawn up than after. but i think the RA should vote on any expenditure at least once per term
Patroklus Murakami: *and i think *
Jon Seattle: Yes, it should.
Patroklus Murakami: so. we should ask sudane to prepare a similar budget with the following considerations – new sim, web portal, oktoberfest, events budget, winter holidays. does that sound like a sensible startng point?
ThePrincess? Parisi: sounds good
Leon Ash: yep
Jon Seattle: why not the executive branch?
Jon Seattle: Yes, that makes sense.
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi bromo
Bromo Ivory: Hi Princess
Patroklus Murakami: yes, there should be a line for ‘the executive branch’ which would encompass some of those items
Jon Seattle: Hi Bromo
Jon Seattle: I mean, why do we not make the executive responsible for drawing up the original budget?
Jon Seattle: Or is this something that should be independant?
Leon Ash: Hi Bromo
Jon Seattle: In theory Sudane reports to DNate in this case.
Bromo Ivory: Hi Leon!
Bromo Ivory: Hi Jon!
Bromo Ivory: (Catching up to Chat)
Patroklus Murakami: jon. i’m not too fussed provided whoever draws up the budget does so on the basis of RA priorities
Jon Seattle: Okay 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we want the budget to pass by the RA so want it to reflect what we want
Patroklus Murakami: if its’ the Treasurer responsibility or Chancellor responsiblility i’m fine with it
Jon Seattle: Indeed, and in fact I suppose if the RA does not approve the executive will have no mony to spend.
Beathan Vale: I like the submission process — budget submitted to Ra for review and approval — it does not seem to matter who draws up the draft as long as it is reviewed and “vetted” by the RA
Patroklus Murakami: indeed 🙂
Bromo Ivory agrees with Beathan
Bromo Ivory: as long as it is clear
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes
Beathan Vale: yes — Bromo — very true
Patroklus Murakami: well, sudane has other points to make about this process, including her desire for a Fiscal Responsibilty Committee. so why dont’ we iron out the wrinkles when we consider that?
Patroklus Murakami: for now, we can ask sudane to prepare a budget for RA consideration (as she has previously done) and consider any other codification of process that may be necessary
Beathan Vale: Right — Pat — we can and should incorporated the process into the support structure we create for the Treasurer
Patroklus Murakami: i agree beathan
Jon Seattle: sure. What about this term?
Leon Ash: Sounds sensible
ThePrincess? Parisi: perhaps we shoudl do it another way
Beathan Vale: and it does not make sense to elaborate and formalize a process until we know the treasury structure
Jon Seattle: Are we skipping the budget for this term, or will we draw one up at the last moment?
Patroklus Murakami: oh i think we need to approve one this term
ThePrincess? Parisi: we need a budget ..
Bromo Ivory nods
Leon Ash: When does this term end?
Patroklus Murakami: we should ask sudane to prepare one. better late than never 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: but we might want to do do it differently than beathan suggested
Patroklus Murakami: we end at end of january when the new RA begins
Leon Ash: Thx Pat. I guess a budget should be prepared then 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, theprincess. could you elaborate on ‘do it another way’? do you mean ‘do it earlier’?
ThePrincess? Parisi: go ahead beathan
Patroklus Murakami waits….
Beathan Vale: I’m not sure — I just said that we should do what we have always done until a trresury structure is in place
Beathan Vale: Sudane submits a budget, we review and approve it
Patroklus Murakami: oh, ok 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: we could make recommendatoins like jon said first
Patroklus Murakami: can’t really disagree with that!
Beathan Vale: Once we set up the support network Sudane has been asking for, we then ask “how can we use this structure to improve our budget process”
Beathan Vale: I think we will find ways
Jon Seattle: Yes, it may make sense to do it that way now, and then through a finance comitteer for next term when we figure out what excactly a finance comitteer consists of
Jon Seattle: Or the other way around 🙂 what do others think?
Jon Seattle: *comittee
ThePrincess? Parisi: brb
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think a finance cttee will be ready til next term so we should reserve it until then
Patroklus Murakami: there was a problem with the idea before i recall
Patroklus Murakami: one proposal on a finance committee was ruled unconstitutional by the SC
Beathan Vale: I agree Pat
Patroklus Murakami: we should examine that case and seek to avoid the same error
Leon Ash: How can a finance committee be unconstitutional?
Leon Ash: Or am being an idiot?
Jon Seattle: I don’t remember the details, but something to do with checks and balances I think
Leon Ash: *I 😉
Patroklus Murakami: well leon, i think it was the *way* it was being set up
Leon Ash: And then discarded completely?
Patroklus Murakami: it seemed to be a division of the RA and that brought up issues about the RA voting on a budget it had proposed i.e. there were no checks or balances built in
Patroklus Murakami: but i could be wrong. it was a while ago and i was still new to Neualtenburg (as was)
Jon Seattle: So shall we send a request to prepare a budget to the executive branch now? I am happy with Pat’s list of priorities.
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i think we should
Beathan Vale: yes
Bromo Ivory: THough the check isn’t strong it is better than before.
Bromo Ivory: (since the excutive serves at the pleasure of the RA)
Leon Ash votes yes (informally)
Patroklus Murakami: ok. well i guess we’re waiting for the New Guild meeting to conclude to move on to item 2 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i’m told that they’re nearly ready
Patroklus Murakami: they’re taking the final votes on the proposed covenants and should be with us soon
Bromo Ivory: Ah good
Patroklus Murakami: and so, we wait 🙂 ……
Jon Seattle: I am told they are taking their last vote now 🙂
Bromo Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: we should have a chat repeater 😀 so we can listen in
Patroklus Murakami: brb (comfort breaks allowed now folks!)
Jon Seattle: I am told it passsed.. 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah!
Patroklus Murakami: let’s hope it passes here too 🙂
Moon Adamant: so, my hello all and sorry 🙂
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Moon Adamant hugs Jon
Leon Ash: Hi Moon
Patroklus Murakami: hi moon. just in time for item 2. alpine meadows covenant and roadmap to purchase of 3rd sim
Sleazy Writer: Hello RA 🙂
Leon Ash: sleazy
Patroklus Murakami: moon, would you like to lead off when you’re ready?
Moon Adamant: thanks to all reps for waiting
Moon Adamant: yes, sure
Leon Ash: Hi Arria
Moon Adamant: ok hmmm
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: Hi everybody 🙂
Moon Adamant: we have prepared for you
Jon Seattle: Hi Arria, Sleazy 🙂
Moon Adamant: a plan of the AM sim
Moon Adamant: a draft of the covenants
Moon Adamant: and the financial proposal
Moon Adamant: the draft of the covenants and the financial proposal are in google docs
Moon Adamant: so please touch each cube to open the docs
Moon Adamant: as re: financial plans, you will consider only the one labelled “Proposal4”
Moon Adamant: since the rest refers to older versions of the plan
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: i apologize for troubling you to open these outside SL
Moon Adamant: and i will post them today in the forums
Patroklus Murakami: (i can open the covenants doc but not the spreadsheeet with the financial plans
Moon Adamant: as regards teh coveant draft, it has a colour code referring to voted items, migrated items from other covenants, etc – but it has also been just voted as a whole
Moon Adamant: hmmm
Jon Seattle: having trouble opening the financial one for some reason..
Moon Adamant: checking if it is published
Moon Adamant: i can open it fine, but i would appreciate more test
Moon Adamant: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pKpEHNlZSbBT2qSY_ri45AA
Patroklus Murakami: aah, ok. got it now
Moon Adamant: i will post an image of that later on in all cases
Jon Seattle: got it 🙂
Dnate Mars: hello
Moon Adamant: these three docs are the iterative work of hmmm 7 months
Moon Adamant: i can say with a good deal of confidence that they represent a broad support
Moon Adamant: we have discussed the plan always in open meetings, and have gathered a good deal of opinions and work on this plan
Beathan Vale: any significant opposition? if so — why and from whom?
Moon Adamant: i would take teh chance here to say thanks to everyone who participated in the process 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i’m very grateful to you moon and to the new guild for all the work you have put in to developing these proposals. i know it has been no mean feat. well done!
Moon Adamant: Beathan, we have had several points of dissent on the plan, but we were able to negotiate compromises off those
Leon Ash: Beathan, what constitutes a script review?
Beathan Vale: kk
Beathan Vale: a script review?
Moon Adamant: i would also warn the RA
Moon Adamant: that we are proposing a few alterations to the CDS-wide covenants
Leon Ash: first ammendment to general cds
Leon Ash: soz moon, i’ll wait for you to finish 🙂
Moon Adamant: lol, no no no
Patroklus Murakami: pls elaborate
Moon Adamant: i am through… happy to answer any question
Moon Adamant: about the CDS-wide cov?
Leon Ash: the first change to the covenant state “All structures and scripts are subject to review.”, my quesiton is what/how is a script reviewed?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Jon Seattle: The two are the script and terriforming rules, both slightly modified I think
Moon Adamant: well, using the estate tools, the exec branch can check the performance of any script
Dnate Mars: Mainly by the amount of time they use to run
Moon Adamant: this is a clause to allow the Exec branch to have an action as regards very laggy scripts
Jon Seattle: This also allows limitd teraforming, where in the past we have required approval even for minor changes.
Moon Adamant: Jon, the estate tools allow that you define a ceiling for terraform actions
Moon Adamant: this can be config’ed by sim
Moon Adamant: which makes the clause redundant
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i think you went through trying to define ‘excessively laggy scripts’ and concluded, quite rightly, that an objective definition that was enforceable was not really possible
Moon Adamant: and contraditory as regards the AM covenant
Leon Ash: Moon, to clarify on scripts. The review is ‘external’ using the performance tools provided by LL. I have concerns about no mod scripts etc 🙂
Moon Adamant: we had a long discussion on how to class scripts
Leon Ash: being unreadable
Moon Adamant: Leon, thus we say a bit below that the action is left to the Chanc’s discretion
Moon Adamant: justly so that he/she can let a script stay in case of no possibility of modifying, replacing, etc
Dnate Mars: The worst thing I could do is return the object
Patroklus Murakami: that’s scripts covered. how about terraforming?
Patroklus Murakami: why change our current prohibition?
Moon Adamant: thsi terraform clause is a very old clause
Moon Adamant: previous, i believe, to the current estate tool
Leon Ash: Great
Moon Adamant: this tool allows you to define a terraform allowance
Moon Adamant: so, the rule is redundant
Moon Adamant: because in sims in which you do not want to terraform, you set that tool to 0 allowance
Patroklus Murakami: hehe. very neat 🙂
Moon Adamant: it is also contradictory to the specific AM covenant, which allows a small terraforming to ease building
Jon Seattle: Yes, in the past, in practice, a little terraforming had to be done to set the foundations of buildings
Moon Adamant: indeed
Jon Seattle: this allows that level of work to be done without bothering the chancellor, but not major changes.
Moon Adamant: that often needed assistance from someone
Moon Adamant: with terrain permissions
Moon Adamant: exactly, no need to bother the Exec branch
Moon Adamant: to what is essentially a ‘fitting’ operation
Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have any further qns on the covenants? before we move on to the spreadsheet?
Bromo Ivory is satisfied
Leon Ash: I’m happy with it.
Sleazy Writer: ehm .. someone nudged me
Jon Seattle is happy with it (of course)
Beathan Vale: happy too
Sleazy Writer: Is the RA planning to accept this line from Moon’s draft that says that terraforming in NFS & CN now *will* be allowed?
Sleazy Writer: Moon/
Sleazy Writer: ?
Moon Adamant: oh, i don’t mean that
Dnate Mars: Terriforming will be allowed… with a 0m limit 😉
Moon Adamant: the terrain tool for those sims can be left to 0
Moon Adamant: it’s just an overall omission, which can be replaced instead with a clear mention on those two covenants
Moon Adamant: mind that
Sleazy Writer: As a citizen I would be happier with : “no terraforming” for all sims seems like a bad idea .. what about proposing “no terraforming is allowed unless the sim covenant explicitly allows it” that keeps things as they are and gives way to AM’s special needs.
Sleazy Writer: oops, bad copy pasta
Sleazy Writer: but you get the point
Moon Adamant: for all that matters, we DO have terraforming in CN and NFS
Jon Seattle enjoys the pasta 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: there is no terraforming in CN now allowed.. in practice
Patroklus Murakami: can we accept sleazy’s language as a statement of the status quo?
Moon Adamant: and teh terraforming is really a thing that should be defined at sim level – nevertheless, that language is good too
Sleazy Writer: What I mean is, saying “terraforming is allowed, but with + – 0 in NFS & CN” is vague .. It’s better to say “no terraforming unless the sim covenant AM’s covenant allows it” .. and this is what I propose to the RA as amendment to Moon’s proposal
Jon Seattle: So, Moon, as I understand it, passing this covenent will provide a varience from the CDS-wide covenents for Alps only
Jon Seattle: I think it best to focus on Alps changes for now..
Moon Adamant: hmmm, pardon?
Dnate Mars: (it would actually be a good thing to do across the CDS, but we need to make sure we have the proper bakings dones
Moon Adamant: ah
Jon Seattle: Moon, would passing this change the covenents in NFS or CN, or would those remain the same?
ThePrincess? Parisi: hi aliexicon
Moon Adamant: well, hmmm
MT Lundquist: hi alex
Sleazy Writer: hi Alexicon
Jon Seattle: (for now)
Alexicon Kurka: hi everyoe
Jon Seattle: Hi Alex
Leon Ash: FWIW, I think Sleazy’s propsal is more future friendly 🙂
Arria Perreault: Hi Alex
Moon Adamant: please understand that this is a proposal from the New Guild and covenant task force into solving some issues – mainly scripts
Moon Adamant: also proposing some practice to be implemented already at AM
Patroklus Murakami: ok let’s vote on sleazy’s clarifying amendment “”no terraforming unless the sim covenant AM’s covenant allows it” .
Moon Adamant: for the interest of coherency… yes, one could say that there is an interest that this chapter is updated into all sims
Patroklus Murakami: RA members pls vote
Jon Seattle: Is this Alps only?
Jon Seattle: Or all sims?
Patroklus Murakami: no, it’s CDS-wide
Jon Seattle: Are we changing CDS-wide covenents with this? Or just passing the Alps covenents?
Patroklus Murakami: it allows terraforminging in AM and keeps teh status quo in CN and NFS
Bromo Ivory: COuld you state the exact wordiing we are voting upon – I would like to make sure we have this 100% clear
Patroklus Murakami: the relevant section of the google docs is ‘General CDS covenants’
Patroklus Murakami: moon/new guild was proposing we delete ‘no terrforming is permitted’
Patroklus Murakami: sleazy is proposing “no terraforming unless the sim covenant AM’s covenant allows it” .
Moon Adamant: or alter it
Beathan Vale: sorry all — I have to runb
Jon Seattle: Pat, only for the Alps sim I think
Jon Seattle: Bye Beathan
Sleazy Writer: bye
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
MT Lundquist: bye
Jon Seattle: I am happy either way, but CDS wide changes may have greater consequences
Patroklus Murakami: well, ‘no terraforming is permitted’ is a cds-wide covenant
Patroklus Murakami: sleazy is proposing that we amend it to make it the default position unless there is a decision not to, as in teh case of AM
Jon Seattle: So we allso need to amend to make that section change covenents for all sims, I think the Guild proposal was for a varience for Alps. I am happy changing it CDS-wide.
Moon Adamant: hmmm
Moon Adamant: i would like to point out that at this moment, CN is set to allow terraform to +100 m/-50 m
Alexicon Kurka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: eeek 😀
ThePrincess? Parisi: xdd
Moon Adamant: this to say, there is a tech solution for the issue
ThePrincess? Parisi: CN is set to not allow terraforming
Patroklus Murakami: well, that solves my little problem with bumpy land1
ThePrincess? Parisi: at all right now
Patroklus Murakami: !
Moon Adamant: we are concerned mainly that
ThePrincess? Parisi: CN does NOT allow terrafoming now
Dnate Mars: but it is set for no terriforming
Moon Adamant: from the pov of a new resident for AM
Patroklus Murakami: but moon, CN should*not* be set to terraform. should it?
Moon Adamant: they won’t meet two contradictory clauses in the the same covenant
Patroklus Murakami: the fact that it is is a mistake
Moon Adamant: yes, it is blocked atm
ThePrincess? Parisi: CN used to allow terraforming it is nto not
ThePrincess? Parisi: 🙂
Jon Seattle: Oh, CN is not set to terriform except for the management group I think
Patroklus Murakami: sleazy’s amendment seems to serve our needs. could we please vote on it? RA members, pls say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Sleazy Writer: I think Dnate has recently turned off terraforming
Sleazy Writer: a checkbox
Dnate Mars nods
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Jon Seattle: Pat, only if we add that this changes all CDS sims. There is not point in changing it if it changes only alps
Leon Ash votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: that’s what it does jon
ThePrincess? Parisi: nay
Jon Seattle: aye, asuming it changes for all sims
Bromo Ivory: I don’t think we shoudl change covenants CDS wide at this moment – so Nay
Patroklus Murakami: is that everybody?
Patroklus Murakami: right.
Patroklus Murakami: the change passes
Patroklus Murakami: lets’ vote on the covenants as a whole, as amended
Leon Ash votes aye
Moon Adamant amends the draft as well
Bromo Ivory votes aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Leon Ash: FWIW I’m happy with the contents of the spreadsheet and have to leave.
Jon Seattle: are
Jon Seattle: *AYE
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Jon Seattle: lol, aye, third try 🙂
Leon Ash: Night everyone
Patroklus Murakami: ok, that passes
ThePrincess? Parisi: night leon good luck
Patroklus Murakami: now, the spreadsheet
Bromo Ivory: Gnight Leon
Leon Ash: Thx ThePrincess?
Patroklus Murakami: moon, before we consider this
ThePrincess? Parisi: :{
Moon Adamant: yes Pat?
Patroklus Murakami: we woudl lik to have time for chancellor’s qns too
Moon Adamant: btw, again, it’s PROPOSAL
Moon Adamant: 4
Patroklus Murakami: what else do we need to do to get AM moving before we can approve purchase of teh new sim and start building?
Patroklus Murakami: do we need to approve this now is partly what i’m asking
Jon Seattle: We need to approve the financial plan I think
Jon Seattle: otherwise no way to purchase it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aah 🙂
Moon Adamant: oh, i am ok, our intention was to make the final presentation today, so that we wouldn’t stop the CDS from acquiring the new sim any longer
Dnate Mars: Yes, then presales can start
Sudane Erato: we need to approve these rates and sell a number of pre-sales
Sudane Erato: even a small number will do
Leon Ash: I’m happy for presales to begin
Dnate Mars: The Executive branch approves these numbers
Moon Adamant: i would call Sudane to present the financial plan, rather than myself
Patroklus Murakami: ok, so it’s critical that we approve this today if we’re happy with it?
Moon Adamant: well
Jon Seattle: It would be best .. I would like to see it move ahead
Bromo Ivory: **can’t call up spreadsheet**
Moon Adamant: approving it today and authorizing the buying
ThePrincess? Parisi: me neither
Moon Adamant: try this:
Moon Adamant: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pKpEHNlZSbBT2qSY_ri45AA
Sudane Erato: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pKpEHNlZSbBT2qSY_ri45AA
Moon Adamant: would mean that – with the delay in sim releasing by LL –
Moon Adamant: we would have it max at 1st week Dec
Moon Adamant: and that by Xmas holidays
Moon Adamant: the lansdcape would be ready
Jon Seattle: (look ay proposal 4, the end of the sheet btw..)
Bromo Ivory:
Sudane Erato: yes… Proposal 4
Patroklus Murakami: does the tier cover the cost? i don’t make this at US$295/month
Moon Adamant: this, and other activities of promo concerning Xmas decurring also in the sim, may attract buyers
Patroklus Murakami reaches for calculator…
Sudane Erato: the tier is listed as the tier for each sized parcel
Dnate Mars: It covers more then the cost. 87,320 vs 138,240
Sudane Erato: so you multiply the tier/parcel times the number of parcels
Sudane Erato: and I have factored in a multiplier… to cover other CDS expenses
Patroklus Murakami: gotcha, comes out at about US$470/month?
Sudane Erato: equivalent to what we have in NFS and CN
Sudane Erato: that sounds right
Leon Ash: I’m sorry everyone I must go. I think the rates are fine and am happy to proceed with the purchase of the sime providing pre-sales reach 33.3% of the land available.
Sudane Erato: the tier is actually quite reasonable, if you understand it as paying for prims
Leon Ash: If there is something not covered by this I’ll vote via email int he morning.
Leon Ash: 🙂
Bromo Ivory nods “One has to given the way prims are allocated
Leon Ash: Night 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: thanks for staying leon
Bromo Ivory: Gnight
Sudane Erato: i.e.,… double what a normal sq meter might bring
Sleazy Writer: good night!
Jon Seattle: Night Leon
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to move to a vote. do others have questions?
Jon Seattle: I second
Patroklus Murakami: ok. pls vote aye or nay on the proposal for financing AM
Jon Seattle: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: ok , that passes
Moon Adamant: yay
Jon Seattle: yay 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: now, do we need to approve purchase of teh new sim now?
Dnate Mars: Yes, all delays will be costly
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: when does the NG envisage making the purchase?
Moon Adamant: uh
Moon Adamant: we depend on you for that
Sudane Erato: well, I’d like to gather whatever pre-sales can be done now
Sudane Erato: and then proceed asap
Dnate Mars: We want to have the sim ready fo rthe winter festival
Patroklus Murakami: so, would you like to come back to a future RA meeting, tell us the x% has been sold and request permission to buy the new sim?
Sudane Erato: well… my preference
Patroklus Murakami: or do u want us to approve this now, or set a trigger point for sales beyond which purchase can take place?
Sudane Erato: would be to have authorization to proceed at my discretion
Sudane Erato: but that’s up to you
Bromo Ivory likes that idea. SUdane being our “business developer”
Bromo Ivory: in this case
Jon Seattle: Sudane has always been relyable on these issues, really our best expert on land market
Dnate Mars: I agree
Patroklus Murakami: i propose we give sudane discretion to buy the new sim, provided that 1/3 of the lots by value have been sold
Sudane Erato: thats reasonable
Jon Seattle: I second
Patroklus Murakami: pls vote
Jon Seattle: votes Aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye on own proposal 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess? bromo? we’re waiting for your votes
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Bromo Ivory: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi nudges bromo
Bromo Ivory: **sorry –
Patroklus Murakami: ty, that passes 🙂
Sudane Erato: ty for your confidence
Patroklus Murakami: i think that’s all on AM. dnate has been very patient
Dnate Mars: (hurray, we are finally get AM!!!!!)
Patroklus Murakami: it’s time for chancellor’s questions this week
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: congrats
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :))))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew
Moon Adamant: ehehe congrats to everyone who made it happen 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we take 20 mins on this. hope you can all stay
Sleazy Writer: great! 😀
Dnate Mars: So, when do we start planning our next sim?
Sudane Erato: lol
Moon Adamant: uh, you hold your horses for two weeks 😛
Patroklus Murakami: yes, congrats on setting up AM. it’s been a lot of work to get this far. well done!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Dnate ? yeeees
Dnate Mars: Ok, I can only stay until 2:15, so we need to make this quick
Patroklus Murakami: item 3. question for dnate. who woudl like to start?
Moon Adamant: hopefully next sim will be quicker, the AM covenants are very good and can be drawn upon for teh next sims~
Jon Seattle: I would. Dnate, the RA earlier decided to ask for a proposed budget for the executive and specified some priorities. When can we expect that?
Jon Seattle: *from the
Dnate Mars: They did?
Jon Seattle: (before you arrived) yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Dnate Mars: Oh uh, well, the only thing I see for the rest of this year is the winter festival and promotion of the new sim
Patroklus Murakami: yes dnate. we requested a budget before you arrived. in response to issues raised on the forums. we will follow up on that
Jon Seattle: Dnate, such a budget would cover the entire term I assume
Jon Seattle: past as well as the remainder
Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to ask about the web portal. what progress has been made since our last meeting when i raised this?
Dnate Mars: Oh, sure 🙂
Dnate Mars: I am afraid to say that the web portal is currenlty stalled
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙁
Patroklus Murakami: why is that?
Dnate Mars: Time and knowelge of what needs to be done
Dnate Mars: I found it to be unfair that Rose try and lead a team in something she knows nothing about
Patroklus Murakami: hmmm. sorry to press you but what has actually *been done*?
Dnate Mars: So I have taken over the project
Dnate Mars: Well, not too much
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Dnate Mars: It is one of those projects that no one has shown any real interest in heading up
Dnate Mars: Until someone can do that, I think it will remain on hold
Dnate Mars: I do want to thank those that did move the forums over to the slcds.info domain
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. that doesn’t seem very satisfactory to me. the RA passed this as one of its first acts this term. it seems a bit late in the day to say ‘it’s very difficult, nothing’s been done’. why couldn’t we have been alerted of the difficulties sooner?
Dnate Mars: that is at least a step in the right direction
Gwyneth Llewelyn bows
Avatar Online HUD 1.3a (WEAR ME!): Loading avatar-data… (avatar-UUID-list (EDIT ME))
Dnate Mars: because it fell off the radar. I should have been up on it, but other things pushed it out of the way. I am sorry for that.
Patroklus Murakami: ok. thanks dnate 🙂 i know you’ve had a lot on your plate
Patroklus Murakami: my other question is – government question hour. when can we expect to hold another one? the first two your organised went very well i thought
Dnate Mars: I am very pleased to announce that the next 2 question hours will be on Tuesday, Nov 27th at noon and Thursday, Dec 6th at noon
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah!
Patroklus Murakami: any other questions for dnate?
Dnate Mars: Perfect, I have 2 minutes to spear
Sleazy Writer: Why are you blue?
Bromo Ivory says nope
Dnate Mars: spare
ThePrincess? Parisi: and what shade is it?
Sudane Erato: ty all 🙂
Sleazy Writer: periwinle
ThePrincess? Parisi: exaclty .. like bluebery
Sleazy Writer: winkle
ThePrincess? Parisi: roayal
Dnate Mars: I have been blue for over 3 years, my question is, why aren’t you all blue?
ThePrincess? Parisi: cobolt
Sleazy Writer: his brain has been affected — clearly ..
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think a bright cobalt blue
Dnate Mars: and it is called, “Dnate Blue”
Bromo Ivory: Sleazy’s or Dnates? 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: ahhh Dnate Blue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Bromo Ivory: lol
Sleazy Writer: 🙂
Jon Seattle: 😀
Patroklus Murakami: hehe, and with that, i suggest we adjourn 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Dnate Mars: see you all on the 27th!
Sleazy Writer: & I’m glad to hear about the Gov’t Question Hours 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ty everyone
The meeting closed at 14:15 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (198, 185, 178)

Meeting on 2007-12-02
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: just a note, i have to leave no later than 12:45
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston: soudns good, i have yet to eat today so i am pretty famihsed] Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: we have one item on the agenda today, the budget that sudane has kindly put together for us
Patroklus Murakami: the link is in the notecard on the table
Patroklus Murakami: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pKpEHNlZSbBRNeHIjN7jIXw
Leon Ash: I have one question, from ignorance really
Patroklus Murakami: so, let’s wait for everyone to get that open aand then open up for qns
Patroklus Murakami: leon, you had one already?
Leon Ash: okay
Leon Ash: I do, I’m just curious how the projections for income is positive growth, when actuals had a decline?
Jon Seattle: I have one as well.
Patroklus Murakami: let’s take leon’s first
Sudane Erato: well, the actual income *will* flucuate from month to month
Leon Ash: I agree on that one 🙂
Sudane Erato: in those two months, it went down from one to the next
Sudane Erato: in another 2, it might go up
Sudane Erato: but from Oct to Nov… we start collecting income from AM
Sudane Erato: so it *will* go up
Leon Ash: Good to hear that 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: ok, that’s that covered. jon, what was your question?
Jon Seattle: I am trying to understand this in US $ terms, since I have more of a sense of values that way 🙂
Jon Seattle: I see about US$200 or so expense for events?
Jon Seattle: for a six month period
Jon Seattle: is that about right?
Sudane Erato: ahh… yes, perhaps
Sudane Erato: i have resisted US$s
Sudane Erato: because our economy is in L$s
Sudane Erato: the only US$s is the tier to LL
Sudane Erato: and only Americans have a sense of value in US$s
Sudane Erato: but i have used 277 to the dollar
Jon Seattle: Yes, though I am trying to get a sense, in RL terms of our burn rate 🙂
Sudane Erato: sure
Jon Seattle: 25,000 = $100 US approx
Sudane Erato: closer to 90
Leon Ash: I have 2 more questions. Just so I know for future really
Sudane Erato: kk
Patroklus Murakami: well, we agreed L$4000/month for six months, so the december etc expenditure needs to be agreed first as it is in excess of that
Sudane Erato: Pat, did we have a budget? for this term?
Jon Seattle: Well, if so we will be spending about US$400 / year on events
Patroklus Murakami: this is the first time we’ve discussed the budget properly. but we passed an events funding bill at one of the first meetings.
Sudane Erato: ahh… ok
Sudane Erato: great
Patroklus Murakami: http://www.aliasi.us/nburgwiki/tiki-index.php?page=NL+7-2
Sudane Erato: kk
Patroklus Murakami: so, the RA has authorised expenditure of L$24000 for the six month period but this budget projects an expenditure greater than that
Patroklus Murakami: how firm are the figures for the winter holidays?
Sudane Erato: i think I indicate in the notes where the numbers came from
Sudane Erato: Rose was just at the Guild mtg
Sudane Erato: talking about this program
Sudane Erato: but of course, she didn’t address the budget
Sudane Erato: if anything, i suspect it will be less
Sudane Erato: since i sense that she is scaling things down
Patroklus Murakami: i make expenditure to date on events as about L$19k (including Oktoberfest). that suggests the events budget has been pretty much used up – unless we agree to increase it
Sudane Erato: well, I will hope that you do… since events such as these are extremely important for our community…
Sudane Erato: they have happened little enough in the past
Brian Livingston: I agree Sudante
Brian Livingston: Err, Sudane*
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Jon Seattle: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i agree. i don’t have a problem with voting additional funds for events. we’ve been really lucky to get someone keen to organise them
Sudane Erato: yes!
Jon Seattle: I also notice the expected amount to be spent in Jan, Feb is 0. Does this mean events will stop in those months?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m just making the point that we need to make a positive decision to fund them and stand by that use of public money
Sudane Erato: Jon, i just have seen no proposed expenditures for that time
Sudane Erato: sure Pat
Jon Seattle: Well, I hope we will vote on a total amount so that events do not have to come to a grinding halt.
Sudane Erato: yes
Brian Livingston: I think it is important for this community to sufficeintly fund a program of events.
Sudane Erato: yes!
Jon Seattle: Sudane, what would you estimate would be spent per citizen per year at this rate?
Brian Livingston: It looks liek we are runnuing a surplus of $60000L Projected, correct?
Sudane Erato: oh… Jon…
Sudane Erato: i need my calculator 🙂
Brian Livingston: Hehe
Sudane Erato: and Brian…
Patroklus Murakami: i make it about L$1400 per citizen
Sudane Erato: the surplus is something in that scale
Patroklus Murakami: (very rough calculation)
Sudane Erato: perhpas more
Sudane Erato: yeah… that sounds ok
Sudane Erato: i’d love it to be a lot more
Sudane Erato: events bring people to our sims
Brian Livingston: I would almost say that i would liek to see a monthly budget of $10000L for events and promotion
Patroklus Murakami: i’m really pleased to see us involved in things like metanomics for example
Sudane Erato: that would be great!
Jon Seattle: 88680 / year
Sudane Erato: yes
Jon Seattle: about 80 citizens?
Brian Livingston: It would be an increase of $6000L or 10% of our surplus
Sudane Erato: hmmm… more like 70
Jon Seattle: 1266 approx.
Patroklus Murakami: i estimated L$ 84k/year for 70 citizens to make my calculation
Sudane Erato: well, thats not very much
Patroklus Murakami: well, we’re taking baby steps here
Brian Livingston: Even $10000L isn’t a massive amount of money in the bigger scheme of event hosting, but combined with sponsorships, which are startign to occur, we could really set up a nice schedule of events on it
Sudane Erato: yes, true
Sudane Erato: yes Brian
Patroklus Murakami: it was a new move to fund an official events budget, and some ppl are opposed to the idea in principle
Sudane Erato: 🙁
Brian Livingston: It is a large chunk of money, don’t get me wrong ,especialyl for a sim group our size, but I think its a worthwhile investment of ourm oeny
Sudane Erato: then call it advertising and promotion
Sudane Erato: thats what it is!!
Patroklus Murakami: it’s reasonable to move with caution when it’s other people’s money we’re committing
Jon Seattle: well, I am fine with it as long as we know what we are getting in to.
Jon Seattle: exactly.
Sudane Erato: well, as far as I can see, Rose has been providing proposed actrivities
Sudane Erato: before the money is spent
Brian Livingston: The money to date taht has been expended ahs resulted in some heavy traffic for our sims and helped raise our level of brand recognition in the wider SL population
Sudane Erato: yes, i agree
Patroklus Murakami: i agree, it’s been good for us in many respects
Jon Seattle: still, I would like to not have those zeros on Jan and Feb.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to approve this budget and allow for the additional expenditure to be on winter and then next couple of months. it represents a doubling of the events budget, but I think that is justified. we should consider this again at an early meeting of the next RA, it may be time to be bolder 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Sudane Erato: well, thats probably a discussion with Dnate and Rose
Patroklus Murakami: jon, i think any expenditure not used in december could be rolled forward
Jon Seattle: Okay
Patroklus Murakami: i anticipate that winter expenditure will have to be scaled back a bit
Patroklus Murakami: we’ve spent some time on events and promotion, are there any other qns on the budget?
Brian Livingston: None here
Leon Ash: The first question is. What are the 4000/3000 professional fees expense, and the second is: what sponsorship are we expecting in December?
Sudane Erato: Leon… the fees are paid to me, rose, and Tan
Sudane Erato: supposed to be regular each month
Jon Seattle: how much will the total balence change if these projections turn out to be true? Over the six months.
Sudane Erato: but i screw up
Sudane Erato: and
Leon Ash: listening 🙂
Sudane Erato: the sponsorship is that Rose suggested that individuals could sponsor performances
Sudane Erato: so
Sudane Erato: thats kind of the level i expect
Sudane Erato: i have told her to make certain that any offiocial sponsorship… the money goes thru Rudeen
Leon Ash: And you are expecting ‘who’ to contribute in Dec, Rose? 🙂
Jon Seattle: Great 🙂
Sudane Erato: I have proposed to sponsor a concert in the church
Sudane Erato: and I understand ThePrincess? has proposed to sponsor a ball
Sudane Erato: so that might be 10,000
Sudane Erato: just guessing
Leon Ash: Sounds good
Sudane Erato: and i must go
Sudane Erato: 🙁
Sudane Erato: sorry
Jon Seattle: Thanks Sudane
Sudane Erato: ty! 🙂
Brian Livingston: Tahnsk Sudane
Brian Livingston: Err Thanks
Patroklus Murakami: yes, ty for coming sudane
Leon Ash: Thank you Sudane 🙂
Sudane Erato: if you have any more questions
Patroklus Murakami: that was very helpful 🙂
Sudane Erato: an email would be great
Sudane Erato: sudane.erato(at)gmail.com
Sudane Erato: gives me more chance to explain
Patroklus Murakami: i feel ready to approve the budget but we’ll see how the discussion goes 🙂
Sudane Erato: great 🙂
Sudane Erato: bye now 🙂
Leon Ash: BTW, where in teh ‘buget’ are the purcahse costs for AM? Am I missing it?
Jon Seattle: I am still trying to figure out if this means that 65k will be added to the balance each month?
Patroklus Murakami: this is just a simplified income/expenditure sheet leon. it was produced at v short notice by sudane
Leon Ash: I realise that Pat 🙂 Was just curious where it was recorded? Only just thought of it myseld
Brian Livingston: If everything goes as projected, yea, I think it would
Leon Ash: *myself
Jon Seattle: Yes, I think the purchase was payed for out of pre-sales and surplus
Patroklus Murakami: we had enough money from reserves to buy it. we’re in quite a sound position overall i think
Patroklus Murakami: is the RA ready to vote on this?
Brian Livingston: What are we voting on?
Leon Ash: Pat, But it is an expense that should be in the ‘actuals’ ?
Brian Livingston: The budget as it stands or are we increasign hte promotion budget?
Jon Seattle: Brian, what do you propose?
Patroklus Murakami: on the draft budget presented by sudane. that includes the projected expenditure, so an additional amount for winter which may be rolled fwd to jan/feb
Patroklus Murakami: is that clear?
Brian Livingston: Hmm, actualyl that does work out to about 10k a month, give or take
Jon Seattle: yes 🙂
Brian Livingston: So yea, that’s clear
Patroklus Murakami: okay, please say ‘yay’ or ‘nay’
Jon Seattle: yay
Patroklus Murakami votes ‘yay’
Jon Seattle: (aye)
Leon Ash votes nay
Brian Livingston: yay
Patroklus Murakami: okay, well we go to a seven-day vote on that. the budget needs 4/7 votes to pass so we’ll have to wait to see what the other RA members say
Leon Ash: Pat, I’ve declined on the basis that the cost of the AM purchase is not included as an Expense in the Actual expenditure
Patroklus Murakami: ty for making that clear leon
Jon Seattle: Thanks Leon. You have a point. I don’t think it will change much, but it should be included.
Leon Ash: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: that’s all we have on the agenda for today, i suggest we adjourn
Jon Seattle: Agreed 🙂
Leon Ash: Have a great afternoon/evening everyone
Jon Seattle: and all of you too!
Brian Livingston: havea good evening
Patroklus Murakami: bye all 🙂
Jon Seattle: Bye 🙂
The meeting closed at 13:0 Linden time.

Permalink.

Meeting on 2007-12-09
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: ok. let’s begin
Patroklus Murakami: notecards are in the dispenser
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded for the chat log
Patroklus Murakami: first item – tour of CDS bill
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m not sure we have anyone here to propose it
Patroklus Murakami: would RA members like to wait until we do or present some first thoughts on the subject now?
Patroklus Murakami: (and non-RA members, being inclusive :))
Jon Seattle: It sounds like a good idea, if not biased. I do worry that new citizens and others come here without knowing much history.
Patroklus Murakami: it certainly sounds like a good idea
Brian Livingston: The idea is nice, but isn’;t this something the PIO can handle (and I think was working on)?
Jon Seattle: yes, this does not require the RA I think
Patroklus Murakami: i did wonder whether it was for the RA or the Executive to enact
Patroklus Murakami: shall we return to this when a proposer can attend an RA meeting?
Brian Livingston: If the Exec branch wants to organize a committee to explore and develop this tour, I think its wonderful, I guesws IJ ust don’t see a need for the RA to act on it
Patroklus Murakami: and suggest they discuss with the Exec branch in the meantime?
Brian Livingston: I second that Pat
Jon Seattle: yes, I agree
Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on to item 2 then
Patroklus Murakami: IP Licensing and Content Archivist Bill. Jon, would you like to introduce this?
Jon Seattle: Okay
Michel Manen: hello all
Jon Seattle: This is a bill that provides a means for us to maintain backup copies of key parts of the CDS infrastructure builds
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
Leon Ash: Hi Michel
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: It provides a means for us to obtain the liciences needed to have rights to use those copies if we need to replace any object or move it within our regions.
Jon Seattle: It helps protect the investment that builders have put in to the CDS over a long period of time.
Brian Livingston has two points of clarification when the floor is ready
Jon Seattle: I am done.
Michel Manen: hmm the notecard giver seems to be out of date
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead brian
Patroklus Murakami: use the wooden box on the table michel
Brian Livingston: Okee. First point, section B6 regardign the firing of the CA
Michel Manen: tks pat
Brian Livingston: Does the confirmation and firing of the CA require a simple majority or 2/3rds vote?
Jon Seattle: Ah, good point.
Brian Livingston: I’d assuem simple majority but it isn’t specified
Jon Seattle: I assume a simple majority
Patroklus Murakami: i would assume simple majority as it is not specified
Brian Livingston: Can I propose adding that to sections B5 ad B6 for clarity?
Jon Seattle: Sure. I am glad to accept that if Sleazy is okay with it.
Leon Ash: I think it is a good suggestiong Brian
Jon Seattle: (Sleazy did much of the drafting.)
Sleazy Writer: sure, fine
Patroklus Murakami: what was your other point brian?
Brian Livingston: Second poitn for clarification is on section A6 regardign the budget for structures
Brian Livingston: It states taht L$50,000 is provisioend for AM structures. That is a total figure and not per term ,correct?
Sleazy Writer: that’s how I meant it, yes
Jon Seattle: yes, total.
Brian Livingston: And at what poitn are the remaining funds transferred back into the CDS General fund?
Brian Livingston: When all structures have had IP contracts signed I assume?
Sudane Erato: i would suggest that budget figures be kept out of a law like this
Sudane Erato: and dealt with as part of the regular budget
Sudane Erato: since all elements of a budget must be considered
Sudane Erato: when a budget is approved
Leon Ash: Agreed Sudane
Jon Seattle: Well, it is common to add extraordinary one time expenses. And I would rather not wait six months to deal with this.
Jon Seattle: I would be fine placing it in a second bill.
Sleazy Writer: The reason for putting the figure in this bill is to get the Chancellor ready, ASAP, to sign agreements, because buildings are *getting* ready as well as being started right now. Then with what part of the current budget do you propose that Dnate gets those licenses, Sudane?
Sudane Erato: fair enough… then can we say that this part of the law applies ONLY to right now
Patroklus Murakami: the budget allocation could be taken separately as a budgetary amendment. that wouldn’t require a delay, would it?
Sudane Erato: thats the problem, see?
Brian Livingston: Well, it does specify for structures in Alpine Meadows
Michel Manen: are there any builders of AM who do not consent to grant license for $1L?
Sudane Erato: that the law is intended to be ongoing
Sudane Erato: but you cannot always assume a funding level of 50,000
Jon Seattle: Lets add it as an amendment to the budget as Pat suggests
Sudane Erato: kk… great
Jon Seattle: Michel, we do not yet know the answer to that question.
Sudane Erato: much better
Leon Ash: Sounds good to me
Sleazy Writer: Suggestion: Cutting the 50k to 15k and mention is it only for *this* term.
Michel Manen: well shouldnt we first find out before we passa law and allocate funds?
Sudane Erato: Michel, we don’t have to use them
Michel Manen: i realise that but if there is no issue why pass a law?
Jon Seattle: Michel, I doubt that is necesary. There is a good chance that even this amount will not be required.
Sudane Erato: the “law” should not be the sam,e as the “budget allocation”
Sudane Erato: IMHO
Jon Seattle: We want to establish that it is nornal for builders to be compensated, at least though a token payment.
Sleazy Writer: My proposal of reducting 50k to 15k and saying it’s only for this term answers the question of for how long this budget is intened.
Michel Manen: no its not the money as such. i just wonder why we should pass a law if there is no issue. We dont know if there is an issue. should we not find out first? thats my question.
Patroklus Murakami: i think that, ideally, we would set a budget for building works in AM *before* building takes place. i feel a bit torn on this one, on the one hand L$50 or L$15k is a very small amount for the building work. on the other hand, it shd really be agreed before any work takes place. but we are where we are and so we should seek to make things right from where we are now
Sudane Erato: oh… i think there *IS* an issue
Jon Seattle: Yes, there is an issue.
Michel Manen: i agree with pats comment entirely
Michel Manen: so there IS an issue then?
Sleazy Writer: it’s important to get Dnate as “ready as possible” for this
Sleazy Writer: and allocating money helps
Patroklus Murakami: i’m getting lost 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: could ppl say what they consider ‘the issue’ to be?
Patroklus Murakami: i think there are potentially several in play here
Michel Manen: sudane u know AM builders who will not grant licenses for a token amount?
Jon Seattle: Lets do this. Lets remove B6 to a budget amendment and debate it after this bill.
Jon Seattle: Sorry A6.
Sleazy Writer: good idea
Sudane Erato: that makes sense Jon
Brian Livingston: Agreed
Patroklus Murakami: i agree jon, but let’s not lose sight of the budget issue as it is live right now
Jon Seattle: We will handle it today I think.
Sleazy Writer: may I suggest one amendment to the bill?
Brian Livingston: It should probably be added to the agenda as item 2b
Patroklus Murakami: go ahead sleazy
Leon Ash: I’m listening
Sleazy Writer: my suggestion is to add to B.9 (reviewing the inventory of the archival avatar) to add “”The audit should be conducted according to the procedures outlined in section C.” … The reviewing people should also keep to rules (in section C) like not copying content to their other avatars or regular avatars etc.
Michel Manen: well that changes nothing to my question. Are there AM builders who will not grant licenses for a token amount? if no, there is no issue nowm and this bill is unnecessary. If yes, we should first find out what those builders demands are before we discuss and pass a law. At least thats how i see it.
Jon Seattle: Michel, this bill is not about payment to builders per se. We have removed that to a later discussion. This is about keeping backups of CDS content.
Sleazy Writer: Michel, the New Guild secretary wants to give the NG builders the explicit option to choose whether they want payment. Alexicon told me a while back that he was indeed considering a payment.
Sudane Erato: Token amount or real amount, the issue is the same. We need a bill like this.
Leon Ash: You said it Sudane
Michel Manen: hello princess
Sleazy Writer: hi Princess
ThePrincess? Parisi: hello
Jon Seattle: Hi Princess 🙂
Leon Ash: Hi ThePrincess?
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: sorry
ThePrincess? Parisi: dont ask
Michel Manen: ah so the issue is AM builders want to be paid for their work thats fine.
Jon Seattle: I accept Sleazy’s suggestion as a friendly amendment.
Sleazy Writer: So my small proposed amendment to this bill is, to add a line of text to B-9 that says that the people who review the inventory of the archival avatar should also keep to procedures like those for the Content Archivist. (which is in section C)
Patroklus Murakami: no, i think the issue is that we need a form of IP licensing agreement for content in AM (and throughout the CDS). the issue of token or substantial payment is a separate one
Sleazy Writer: And the text for that could be: “The audit should be conducted according to the procedures outlined in section C.”
Michel Manen: ok pat
Jon Seattle: Yes, Pat is exactly right. This is about protecting CDS instructure, our public buildings and roads, and not about payments.
Patroklus Murakami: jon, are you content with sleazy’s amendment?
Jon Seattle: I am.
Jon Seattle: I move that this bill be adopted.
Jon Seattle: (as amended)
Patroklus Murakami: i’m sensing a conclusion to the discussion
Michel Manen: don t the 2 overlap? i mean since work is mostly done in AM, protecting infrastructure means making a payment no?
Michel Manen: sure u can close it if u want.
Patroklus Murakami: are RA members happy to go to a vote on this? it was posted on the forums only yesterday
ThePrincess? Parisi: what amendments were made? can i wait to vote or can you tell me
Leon Ash: I’m happy to proceed.
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess, we’re discussing the IP Licencing and Content Archivist Bill
Patroklus Murakami: I’ll scroll back for the amendments
ThePrincess? Parisi: i know
Patroklus Murakami: just a sec
ThePrincess? Parisi: i have read it
ThePrincess? Parisi: i just want to know what you changed today
Sleazy Writer: (With the 50,000 L$ max left out, and with “simple majority” specified for the RA firing a CA.)
ThePrincess? Parisi: thanks
Jon Seattle: Princess, Sleazy’s amendment about the Chancellor and Dean respecting the CA rules, and some small clairification on lanuage: the CA may be fired by a majority of the RA.
ThePrincess? Parisi: nice..
ThePrincess? Parisi: ok
Patroklus Murakami: Line A6 is removed. this will be considered as a budgetary amendment separately
Jon Seattle: yes. nods. very important.
Patroklus Murakami: votes are by simple majority (to hire and fire the CA)
Patroklus Murakami: and Sleazy Writer: So my small proposed amendment to this bill is, to add a line of text to B-9 that says that the people who review the inventory of the archival avatar should also keep to procedures like those for the Content Archivist. (which is in section C)
Patroklus Murakami: i have heard that leon is ready to vote. are other RA members ready to vote on this bill?
Brian Livingston: I’m ready
Jon Seattle: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: yep
Patroklus Murakami: and i am ready too
Patroklus Murakami: so let’s vote on the bill as amended. pls say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Jon Seattle: Aye
Brian Livingston: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Leon Ash votes Aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami: thank you. that passes
Sleazy Writer: Thanks reps 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: now, let’s consider the proposed budgetary amendment
Leon Ash: sure
Patroklus Murakami: Sleazy has proposed a reduced amount of L$15k to cover potential compensation for AM builders. any further discussion on that point?
Jon Seattle: Here is the text: L$ 50,000 is allocated to the Chancellor to provide, where necessary, reasonable compensation to builders who have constructed substantial public CDS structures in Alpine Meadow.
Leon Ash: None from me
Patroklus Murakami: (reduced from 50k in the original draft)
Jon Seattle: Do we want to reduce the amount as Sleazy suggests?
Michel Manen: well should we not first find out 1) what the AM builders demands are and 2 ) what funds are available in the budget as of now?
Sleazy Writer: Do you want to delay things Michel?
ThePrincess? Parisi: i hav a hat
Sleazy Writer: It’s important to get these agreements signed, and a back-up copy for the CDS.
Jon Seattle: Sudane can correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think we have this in the current budget.
Sudane Erato: there should be some small fund available
Michel Manen: no . i just want to have the facts before i vote on a budget bill.
Sudane Erato: and 15 or 50 are both reasonable amounts
Michel Manen: lol you vote
Sleazy Writer: No vote for you time
Michel Manen: hahasorry
Leon Ash: Technically I think Michel’s approach is the right one. Don’t think it is very pragmatic at the moment, but in the ideal world that is how it should work 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: long night michel?
Patroklus Murakami: now now, an easy slip of the keyboard to make 🙂
Michel Manen: very prin
ThePrincess? Parisi: and he is right but i do make hats and we can pick a number out if you want
ThePrincess? Parisi: i thik we need facts too
Michel Manen: lol
Sudane Erato: a law is ineffective if you do not fund it somehow… even if in a limited fashion
Michel Manen: yup
Sudane Erato: it must have some money to start
Sleazy Writer: exactly
Jon Seattle: Well, passing this allows the Chancellor to go ahead with the negotation. There is no requirement that he spend the full amount.
Sudane Erato: we can learn from experience, and revise the amounts when the new budget is drafted
Jon Seattle: And if it requires more he can always come back with an additional request.
Michel Manen: but first we must know what the requirements are and what funds are avaialble. then we can make an informed and financially responsible decision
Sudane Erato: yes
Leon Ash: I think the 15k figure is a reasonable and realistic starting point so things can move forward, rather than stagnate again
Patroklus Murakami: but the assumption is that ppl are working on AM for token amounts, isn’t it?
Michel Manen: why 15K? i dont understand where that number comes from. its not a money issue. its an issue of principle. We dont know the demand, we dont know the dupply, and weestablish a capped price?
Sleazy Writer: The New Guild secretary wants to keep options open for their builders
Sudane Erato: we assume that perhaps, but we don’t really need to frioce that to be the case
Patroklus Murakami: (even 15-50k is hardly a realistic price to expect)
Sudane Erato: true
Michel Manen: so lets find out first.
Patroklus Murakami: well, we could ask the New Guild to go away and prepare a budget on the basis of discussion with builders…. and delay the remaining work on AM
Sudane Erato: if we wait to find out first, then I suggest that we authorize the Chancellor to spend a certain amount as needed
Sudane Erato: before we get to furhter authorization
Patroklus Murakami: or we can establish a budget and the chancellor can come back if further authorisation is needed
Michel Manen: well that amounts to the same: authorising a random amount ot be spent before the facts are even known.
Jon Seattle: I like your latter suggestion. No need to slow this process in this case.
Patroklus Murakami: either way is fiscally responsible but the second gets the job done!
Sudane Erato: yes, and perhaps the chancellor should find out those facts
Jon Seattle: Michel, don’t you trust the Chancelor to make resonable decisions?
Moon Adamant: hi all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hi moon
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
Brian Livingston waves to moon
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Leon Ash: Hi Moon
Sleazy Writer: I trust Dnate will handle this responsibly, so I don’t see the problem with 15k for the remaining month .. Michel is complicating things. I don’t think he researched the financials of his Multi-100 dollar VPR bill .. So I don’t know why’s he’s making a fuss about this.
Michel Manen: ok . so let him do that, report back, sudane can tell us what fundss are available, and we can make an informed deicsion then
Patroklus Murakami: we’re discussing the potential budget for building works in AM
Moon Adamant hugs Jon
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: as I said, 15 or 50 are reasonable amounts
Patroklus Murakami: we lost Leon
Patroklus Murakami: oh, he’s back!
Patroklus Murakami: wb leon
Brian Livingston: Niow you didn’t, he’s just flying about ;p
Leon Ash: Nope, I just sat on Moon’s lap by accident 🙁
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i see
Brian Livingston: No*
Leon Ash: Sorry moon
Jon Seattle: I move that we amend the budget as Sleazy suggested, with the expetation that further amounts may be needed in the next budget cycle.
Patroklus Murakami: RA members, are you ready to vote on this?
Jon Seattle: yes
Moon Adamant: i would only like to make a comment
Brian Livingston: I’d like to hear the comment before voting
Patroklus Murakami: hmm moon, we’re in teh middle of a vote
ThePrincess? Parisi: no
Brian Livingston: so I’m voting no not ready
ThePrincess? Parisi: me too not ready let moon talk
Patroklus Murakami: meh
ThePrincess? Parisi: meh?
Moon Adamant: 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Michel Manen: hem?
Patroklus Murakami: an indication of frustration
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: oh
Sleazy Writer: Alpine Chamois say “meh”?
Patroklus Murakami: shame we couldn’t have had the discussion before a vote was called
Patroklus Murakami: moon, what did you have to say?
Moon Adamant: ah sorry
Moon Adamant: really sory for interrupting, i’ll try to be brief
Moon Adamant: just a comment that next time, we will require from the RA – along with other previous decisions – an expected amount for spending in content
Moon Adamant: with the due understanding that this is extremely difficult to calculate
ThePrincess? Parisi: next time?
Moon Adamant: nevertheless, there is a principle that should be defended by a vote: the right of work being paid… even if the builders exert their freedom in donating stuff to the CDS
Moon Adamant: next sim .9
Moon Adamant: 🙂
Michel Manen: this is why as pat said this disussion should have taken place before the AM construction began; I for one was under the impression – and i can well be wrong – that all those who agreed to work on AM were doing it on a voluntary basis.
Moon Adamant: i wonder how you could be so sure of that
Patroklus Murakami: thank you for that moon. do you have anything further to add
Moon Adamant: if you had read the IP license contract with care, you’d notice that it contains a clause for a payment
Patroklus Murakami: we can’t assume that our sims will be built exclusively by volunteer labour. and the principle of payment in exchange for work is a good one. the lack of it has got us into deep water in the past
Michel Manen: i said i was not sure and i may be wrong. but starting work with no idea of what budget is available and once work is done starting to negotiate is not the way to go at all
Patroklus Murakami: now. are we ready to vote on the budgetary amendment? RA members please say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Jon Seattle: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aah, we lost theprincess
Brian Livingston: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Patroklus Murakami: leon?
Patroklus Murakami: everybody still here?
Brian Livingston pokes Leon
Michel Manen: yes
Jon Seattle: yup
Patroklus Murakami: anyone able to rouse leon?
Brian Livingston: Trying
Moon Adamant: does anyone have a whistle sound?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Jon Seattle: 😀
Moon Adamant: or a hello?
Moon Adamant: something?
Sudane Erato: throw a snoball at him
Sleazy Writer: heheh
Sudane Erato: hehe
Squirt Gun: Ready
Snowball Thrower: Use Mouselook (press ‘M’) to shoot me.
Snowball Thrower: Choose ‘Detach’ from my menu to take me off.
Sudane Erato: lol
Leon Ash: Sorry everyone, just catching up
Sudane Erato: yay!
Patroklus Murakami: 🙂
Sleazy Writer: wb
Sudane Erato: the snowball worked!
Leon Ash votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: ty leon 🙂
Leon Ash: LOL … sorry got distracted by Harry Potter 🙁
Patroklus Murakami: let’s proceed to agree the amount. i suggest we vote on 50k first, then 15k second
Jon Seattle: sure.
Patroklus Murakami: so, on L$50k for the budgetary amendment pls vote ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Brian Livingston: nay
Michel Manen: i think we should find out what the builders requirements are first. unless we know already the total amount is below either 50 k or 15 k
Jon Seattle: aye
Leon Ash votes nay
Advanced Object-Scanner? HUD 1.94a (WEAR ME): The scanner on steroids – secondlife://Titian/135/223/351/
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: wb theprincess 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: nay
Patroklus Murakami: so the 50k falls
Jon Seattle: wb Princess
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you
ThePrincess? Parisi: i crashed
Brian Livingston: wb 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: now, on 15k for the budgetary amendment pls vote ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Brian Livingston: aye
Jon Seattle: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Leon Ash votes aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: abstain
Patroklus Murakami: ty. that passes
Sleazy Writer: great – thanks reps 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: well done everybody. ty
Patroklus Murakami: let’s try to fit in items 3 and 4 before we all have to go
Patroklus Murakami: i intend to finish at 2pm today if that’s okay with everybody?
Jon Seattle: brb
Jon Seattle: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: yep
Brian Livingston: Sounds good, I have things to do today and can’t stay much longer than 2 hrs
Patroklus Murakami: item 3 is a discussion item on the use of ban lines in Alpine Meadow
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess, i know you feel strongly about this. would you like to introduce the topic?
Brian Livingston: Pat – I’d sayt this discussion really should encompass their use across teh CDS, no specifically in AM
Michel Manen: from what i understand the cAM ovenant is silent on this no?
Sleazy Writer: Hi MT
Sleazy Writer: correct, CDS ditto
Moon Adamant: all are
Sleazy Writer: (afaik)
ThePrincess? Parisi: well it seems that simply the ban lines interfer withthe CDS experience
Michel Manen: so then lets discuss for all CDS then
ThePrincess? Parisi: and that a person should know when they purchase land that they can
ThePrincess? Parisi: set up a ban list
ThePrincess? Parisi: but not an allow slit
ThePrincess? Parisi: list
ThePrincess? Parisi: and yes all cds
Patroklus Murakami: i recall we had a similar discussion about this some time ago
ThePrincess? Parisi: well its come up again
Patroklus Murakami: a year ago in fact
Michel Manen: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: its a problem now pat
Patroklus Murakami: i’m just trying to find the relevant thread as teh arguments are pretty much the same
Michel Manen: rudi ruml was very much in favor of ban lines then
Sudane Erato: the current individual put up a ban line by mitake
Sudane Erato: I spoke to him, and he apologized
Sudane Erato: and he removed it
ThePrincess? Parisi: the issue is having it in law
Sudane Erato: it was up for hardly more than 24 hrs
Michel Manen: ah thats fine 😉 but should we have a policy on this? thats the question
Patroklus Murakami: yes, ppl are usually reasonable if you talk to them. no one coming to the CDS wants to be a bad neighbour
Sudane Erato: yes, i agree we should
ThePrincess? Parisi: so that its not miusunderstood when a person purchanses land
Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=614&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=white+list
Jon Seattle: Ah, I remember that discussion well
Michel Manen: its not against any one individual sudane it was just a triggger to raise an issue and see if we want to address it globally
ThePrincess? Parisi: nonetheless it needs to be clear upon purchase
ThePrincess? Parisi: the thing thats diff now is that a person can buy land with out discusions now
ThePrincess? Parisi: and i think we are in need of having it clearly stated that they are not allowed ..
ThePrincess? Parisi: i have had neighbors in CN put them up too
ThePrincess? Parisi: a blue man
ThePrincess? Parisi: lets see
Michel Manen: lol
ThePrincess? Parisi: hewas a carrying a basket at one point
ThePrincess? Parisi: lol
Patroklus Murakami: can we just probe the discussion a bit? why *should* we stop ppl from using the security systems LL has put into the client? what problem are we trying to solve? aren’t we infringing on the rights of the individual?
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: do we want an RA decision on this or do we leave it up to the Chancellor’s discretion? thats the issue
ThePrincess? Parisi: we are infringing on their rights for the good of the community
ThePrincess? Parisi: its not mainland
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think its important as we grow to make sure that we keep it a welcoming envioronment pat
ThePrincess? Parisi: and ban lines are NOT welcoming
Michel Manen: i totally agree with Princess
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t like ban lines at all. i agree they’re hideous. but should they be banned by law? when i’ve had them put up by neighbours i’ve talked to them. always solves teh problem 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes tehy should
ThePrincess? Parisi: always
ThePrincess? Parisi: well one time they wont
ThePrincess? Parisi: and someone will have bought land not knowing
Michel Manen: well lol thats what we are here to discuss pat
ThePrincess? Parisi: and then it wont be fixed.. so politely
ThePrincess? Parisi: we need to tell them ahead of time
Leon Ash: FWIW, I don’t like ban lines myself, but am reluctant to ban ban lines by default?
Sudane Erato: i agree with ThePrincess?
ThePrincess? Parisi: why leon? if i buy here and want to ban lines
ThePrincess? Parisi: put them up then what do you do
ThePrincess? Parisi: thanks
Michel Manen: the question is are the alternative security tools as effective but less intusive than ban lines?
ThePrincess? Parisi: sudane..
Sudane Erato: the existence of ban lines is an actual alteration of the community
ThePrincess? Parisi: yes they are
Michel Manen: if yes no rights are infringed if we ban Ban Lines 😉
Sudane Erato: Ban linmes are a very weak security tool
Leon Ash: I’m very happy that ban lines are not general practice in the CDS
ThePrincess? Parisi: it infringes on my rights to enjoy the community if they have them…
Sudane Erato: a griefer can overcome them easily
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t like the idea of legislating for behaviour in this way
ThePrincess? Parisi: well why dont you want them then
Michel Manen: sudane are there better alternative tools to acheive the same effect?
ThePrincess? Parisi: what is the opposite of yellow
Sudane Erato: and they only work for 30m up
Leon Ash: But, I don’t like the idea of trying to legislate for every eventuallity
Patroklus Murakami: and telling ppl what they can do with their property in such an authoritarian way
ThePrincess? Parisi: so do we wait til its a problem?
Sudane Erato: Michel, I think you need to define “the effect”
ThePrincess? Parisi: or anticipate a thing that would greatly alter the landscape
Michel Manen: not when equally effective and less intrusive tools are available Pat
Patroklus Murakami: Whilst I do not like white lists and resent being bumped by them, I dislike even more the tought of the government legislating what a citizen can and cannot do on his / her property to ensure security and privacy
ThePrincess? Parisi: lets set some up and walk from CN to NFS
ThePrincess? Parisi: just three sets
Patroklus Murakami: (your words michel :))
Leon Ash: LOL, this is so funny. Not even an hour ago we were seeign arguments against implementing a law as it wasn’t a problem and now we have the reverse ;-)))
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i really don’t think this *is* a problem. when it has occurred we talk to ppl and they solve the problem
Brian Livingston: I’m torn, as I am not crazy about the precident it sets, but then again we already legislate that certain prctices are not permitted on CDS sims
Michel Manen: i agree. thats why i am saying that if there are alternative means that are equally effective we could consider this, otherwise it is difficult to do so
ThePrincess? Parisi: welljust lets wait til we get complaints about ban lines then .. np
Patroklus Murakami: always the best way to go about things in my book
ThePrincess? Parisi: omg i was being sarcastic
ThePrincess? Parisi: thats no way to do things
ThePrincess? Parisi: imo
Brian Livingston: Spinning signs and pornography as two examples. Both of which are banned as they are contrary to community values, which seems to be the rationale behind this proposal.
Jon Seattle: Has someone written a bill we can consider to deal with this?
Michel Manen: so we wish to deal with each case ad hoc on an individual basis?
ThePrincess? Parisi: dnate is allowed to do it not me
ThePrincess? Parisi: hows that
Michel Manen: pat lets first find out what we all think about it before pushing a bill
Jon Seattle: Well, without a bill I don’t see how we can move ahead.
Patroklus Murakami: this is down as a discussion item. a bill can come later. i’m going to call time on the discussion in a few minutes though
Michel Manen: i think that if equally effective alterantive means exist no rights are infringed and the community’s interest benefits and we should consider it.
ThePrincess? Parisi: can we put a bill up now
Michel Manen: we dont havre it drafted princess
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do
Patroklus Murakami: is there room for a non-legislative statement of community principles? for example, if we included a statement in teh covenant saying that we discourage the use of white lists because of the blight on the landscape?
ThePrincess? Parisi: it just needs to be in the covenent now that ppl buy land directly potentially with no contact with anyone in CDS
Michel Manen: ok pat thats a good idea how is that enforced?
Brian Livingston: I think that would overcomplicate the covenant by adding yet another part to it
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think we need to ‘enforce’. we can try *talking to ppl* and *reasoning with them*. it works really well!
Moon Adamant: well, if you are going to legislate on that, you need to have it on the covenant
Michel Manen: brian thas not a valid reason the covenant is already complicated one clause wont change that
Sudane Erato: the covenant is already of biblical proportions… a little more won’t hurt 🙂
Moon Adamant: you can’t expect buyers to go navigate through our wiki to check all legislation that coudl apply
Patroklus Murakami: lol sudane 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: it shoudl be known before a person agrees to buy the land
Michel Manen: haha right sudane
Moon Adamant: i do wonder why you all think that the covenant is complicated 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: sleazy wrote the bil: ban lines are not allowed in CDS
Michel Manen: for me the issue is about equally effective alternative means
Michel Manen: any one can offer any comments on that?
Sudane Erato: yes, you need to define wto what ends the means apply
Jon Seattle: Princess, we would have to add it to the published covenents.
ThePrincess? Parisi: that would be fine Jon
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t know anything about security systems. they’re fairly useless and annoying in my experience. far worse than the Lindens’ system
Jon Seattle: So more than one line may be necesary 🙂
Michel Manen: to acheive the samee security and privacy ends as do the ban lines sudane
ThePrincess? Parisi: personaly i dont want a notice that i have to leave in 10 seconds or ill be tpd to home either
Sudane Erato: i think the intent of this bill is to indicate that the securoty provided by ban lines is inappropriate in the CDS
Michel Manen: indeed; and also allow alernative security means that are as effective
Michel Manen: but much less intrusive
Patroklus Murakami: we have twenty minutes left. i propose we move on to item 4 so that we get some discussion on that
Jon Seattle: Okay
Michel Manen: well wait.. what happens with this matter?
Patroklus Murakami: well michel. this is the problem when there’s no bill
Patroklus Murakami: there’s no resolution to the issue
Sudane Erato: a bill should get presented before the meeting
ThePrincess? Parisi: well we will submit it next week
Patroklus Murakami: we have held an initial discussion
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you very much Pat
Patroklus Murakami: if there’s a bill prepared, we can discuss it at a future meeting
Michel Manen: ok. so we have no general consensus on what wew could do?
Patroklus Murakami: of course we have no concensus. how could we in the time available?
ThePrincess? Parisi: moving on
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest putting a proposal on the forums and getting some discussion going
Patroklus Murakami: yes, moving on
Michel Manen: well some things are so clear that we do agree lol
Michel Manen: ok pat
Patroklus Murakami: who would like to introduce item 4 on the sale of prim lots in NFS?
Sudane Erato: i guess i could
Patroklus Murakami: pls do sudane
Michel Manen: 😉
Sudane Erato: when the new rule about allowing direct sale of parcels went into effect…
Sudane Erato: we neglected to note that the special prim parcels are only set aside for certain existing parcel owners
Sudane Erato: therefore…
Sudane Erato: they cannot be offered for public sale
Sudane Erato: we need an effective system to deal with this limitation
Sudane Erato: thats it 🙂
Sudane Erato: i have no proposal… except to sprwead the word
Brian Livingston: Well, again this affets Colonia Nova, correct?
Brian Livingston: I’m assumign i can’t jsut put my prim plot up for sale to anyone
Sudane Erato: yes… the R.o1xx parcels are prinm parcels
Jon Seattle: Perhaps we can require that prim lots be bought only though direct contact, the old way?
Sudane Erato: thats right
Michel Manen: tecnically i think you can Brian
Sudane Erato: yes, Jon… but that begs the question of how they will be publicized
Sudane Erato: the owner is at a real disadvantage
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think that you just add to the covenet the box to check that you also own a little house
ThePrincess? Parisi: or you cant purchase
ThePrincess? Parisi: why is that so difficult
Sudane Erato: ThePrincess?, the covenants are sim-wide
Brian Livingston: What would the effet be on the treasurey if owners simply buy and sell to and from the CDS
Jon Seattle: ThePrincess?, people do not read that closely
Sudane Erato: they cannot apply to a single parcel
Brian Livingston: The CDS will buy it back when the owner is ready to sell
Sudane Erato: yes, not to mention that they are never read
Patroklus Murakami: the requirement that these parcels only go to certain types of property owner is a bit of a fiddly issue. what would be the effect of just allowing prim parcels for sale with no restriction?
Sudane Erato: the effect would be, Pat
ThePrincess? Parisi: if they buy land with a covenent and dont read it? JOn.. are you saying ppl cant read covenents why do you have them then
Sudane Erato: that City parcel owners, particularly in NFS
Michel Manen: i think that would defeat the purpose of prim lots
Sudane Erato: would be SEVERELY cramped for prims
Michel Manen: yes sudane i totally agree
ThePrincess? Parisi: i do too..
Jon Seattle: Princess, I am just saying that if we can avoid embarresing land reclamation (making our potential customer mad) than why not?
Sudane Erato: we hold those asoide, just for them
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. just trying to find a simple solution to the problem. we seem to have created a rod for our own backs
Michel Manen: sudane is right
Sudane Erato: i agree, Pat… we would want a simple solution
ThePrincess? Parisi: so those are held separate and cannot be set for sale? that seems reasonable
Michel Manen: prim lots should nott be offered for general sale.
Sudane Erato: perhaps a place on the website can be set aside
Patroklus Murakami: we could just allow them to be bought and sold as normal parcels. that would make them highly desirable and the price woudl go up. some city plot owners would be hard done by as a result though
Sudane Erato: just to list available prim lots
Michel Manen: no pat that would result in what sudane deplored could happen
ThePrincess? Parisi: so now it seems we have a discussion about whether the lots need to be even held.. can you even get a house on those with no extra pims
ThePrincess? Parisi: prims
ThePrincess? Parisi: i dont think you can
ThePrincess? Parisi: certainly not any thing in it
Sudane Erato: many people do
ThePrincess? Parisi: oh
ThePrincess? Parisi: well.. then maybe pat is right..
Patroklus Murakami: well, it might. but in general it’s better to let the market sort out such issues (and i know i’m *supposed* to be a socialist but still…)
Sudane Erato: there are two free prim lots now in NFS
Sudane Erato: and several in CN
Sudane Erato: but NFS has 20
Michel Manen: so you want to do away with prim lots pat?
Patroklus Murakami: there are free prim lots in CN? i must talk to you about that sudane!
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: ask, and thou shall be answered 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: no, i’m not suggesting gettting rid of them. just that we should let them be bought and sold without the cumbersome bureaucratic restrictions we currently place on them
Patroklus Murakami: let the market sort it out 🙂
Michel Manen: indepently of holding a main parcel? thats doing away with prim lots for all intents and purposes
Sudane Erato: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: well.. then the way CN was desighned is changed completely
ThePrincess? Parisi: the landscape will change dramatically
Patroklus Murakami: no, not independantly of holding another lot. just let anyone who already owns land in NFS buy a prim lot
Moon Adamant: not to mention NFS
ThePrincess? Parisi: nods
Michel Manen: i am totally opposed to doing away with prim lots as currently defined for the reasons sudane gave
Sudane Erato: Pat, you’d have the same problem…
Sudane Erato: someone with no parcel at all would buy one
ThePrincess? Parisi: and then places that were designated open space
ThePrincess? Parisi: weould be filled
Sudane Erato: well.. you COULD keep in place NO BUILD covenants zoning
Sudane Erato: which now applies to the prim parcels
Patroklus Murakami: hmmm. tricky 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: i like that.. compromise.. keep prim lots but dont say who can use them
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: so if someone can buy 4 prim plots on the maket should be able to cos they can pay for it?
ThePrincess? Parisi: and not build on them
Sudane Erato: hehe… i would buy them all up in a second! 🙂
Michel Manen: i think its a recipe for highest bidder takes all and would lead us where sudane says it will
Patroklus Murakami: why not? then ppl can sort this out by making offers to each other for property they want. like in RL
Sudane Erato: i have to agree with Michel
Michel Manen: no pat this is not rl
Michel Manen: were talking prims here
ThePrincess? Parisi: and rose will get all the prims 🙁
Leon Ash: I have to call it an evening. Night all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the alternative is rigging the market and creating work for sudane and others
ThePrincess? Parisi: night Leon
Michel Manen: hahaha
Sudane Erato: bye leon 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we’re still talking about property, markets and the same RL rules apply
Michel Manen: unwarranted attack on an absent citizen Princes!!
Michel Manen: j/k
Sudane Erato: I suggest a special listing on the website
ThePrincess? Parisi: attack?
ThePrincess? Parisi: thats a comliment
ThePrincess? Parisi: compliment
Michel Manen: joke sorry
ThePrincess? Parisi: no more joking in RA
Michel Manen: ok zips it\
ThePrincess? Parisi: i am torn cos i do belive in an open market ..
Michel Manen: i agree with Sudane and disagree with Pat.
Patroklus Murakami: well, i suggest we draw the discussion to a close here. perhaps we could debate some ideas for how to move forward on the forum?
Sudane Erato: good
Michel Manen: ok
Patroklus Murakami: i’m not wedded to my thoughts presented here
ThePrincess? Parisi: thanks
Patroklus Murakami: just thinking aloud 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: me too
ThePrincess? Parisi: and ill raise my prices to you now Pat
Sudane Erato: haha
Michel Manen: wow wewre thinking! progress! 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hehe, not too far or i won’t pay!
Sudane Erato: tsk!
ThePrincess? Parisi: Michel..
Michel Manen: sorry i forgot the no joke rule
ThePrincess? Parisi gets out the ruler
Patroklus Murakami: meh once more 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: im going
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
Patroklus Murakami: i propose we adjourn
Sudane Erato: bye 🙂
Moon Adamant: bye Princess 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: MT
Patroklus Murakami: bye TP
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
MT Lundquist: yes p
ThePrincess? Parisi smiles
Sudane Erato: ty all 🙂
Jon Seattle: Bye 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye sorry i have to run..
MT Lundquist: bye all
Brian Livingston: We stand adjourned?
Michel Manen: bye bye for now
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned
Patroklus Murakami: ty everybody
Moon Adamant: thansk everyone 🙂
Sleazy Writer: Btw guys
The meeting closed at 14:1 Linden time.

Permalink.

Meeting on 2007-12-16
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
ThePrincess? Parisi has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i suggest we begin
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch teh recorder to indicate consent for the chat log
Patroklus Murakami: agenda items are in the wooden box on the table
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: we have one item on the agenda
Patroklus Murakami: this was briefly discussed at last week’s meeting
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: the CDS tour bill
Patroklus Murakami: theprincess, would you like to introduce this proposal?
ThePrincess? Parisi: its the guided tour bill
Patroklus Murakami: yes
ThePrincess? Parisi: and we propose as many ppl have said that they agree with
ThePrincess? Parisi: that a tour of the three sims be established
ThePrincess? Parisi: the main purpose is to not only show the sims
ThePrincess? Parisi: in a contolled manner
ThePrincess? Parisi: but more importanly
ThePrincess? Parisi: to give ou t timely information about CDS
ThePrincess? Parisi: and to have a way to direct ppl physically around the sims and to give them the informaion we want them to have regarding CDS
ThePrincess? Parisi: thanks
Patroklus Murakami: ty for that. does anyone have questions or comments about the proposal?
Danton Sideways has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: What would be the role or relationship of the PIO to this project?
ThePrincess? Parisi: that is something i have been thinkgin about
ThePrincess? Parisi: perheps there are two levels of information
ThePrincess? Parisi: a core set of info .. about CDS with RA approval
ThePrincess? Parisi: and then rose/ pio can set out the more timely info
ThePrincess? Parisi: events etc
ThePrincess? Parisi: does that answer
ThePrincess? Parisi: what do you all think
Jon Seattle: I have more questions 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i have a couple of questions too. but go ahead jon
ThePrincess? Parisi: good
Jon Seattle: How would the authors / editorial board for this info be selected?
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think this is the most imoportant part and i think the RA should do it
Sudane Erato: why does this need to be approved by the RA at all?
ThePrincess? Parisi: the entire project? or the information piece
Sudane Erato: it really should be a simple part of the promotional effort
Patroklus Murakami: there are two blanks to fill in the text of the bill – head of teh tour committee and a budget. any proposals for who/how much those shd be?
ThePrincess? Parisi: what do you think jon
ThePrincess? Parisi: leon crashed
Sudane Erato: yes
Jon Seattle: poor Leon
ThePrincess? Parisi: quorum?
Patroklus Murakami: i think this needs RA approval for the budget item but i think the rest could probably be decided by the exec. but i have no problem with stepping on dnate’s toes this time 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we can continue discussion in the absence of a quorum
Sudane Erato: i agree Pat
Patroklus Murakami: and hope that leon is able to rejoin us
ThePrincess? Parisi: i agree about the budget issue pat
Jon Seattle: I guess, to try and answer that question, it would be nice if the tour reflected a balanced mix of viewpoints
ThePrincess? Parisi: and more importatn even that the
ThePrincess? Parisi: information
ThePrincess? Parisi: exactly
ThePrincess? Parisi: has the potential to be controversial
ThePrincess? Parisi: and we need to make sure all agree
ThePrincess? Parisi: balanced
ThePrincess? Parisi: i htink that needs to happen here
Jon Seattle: So perhaps the RA should have some role, though I would like to see it supplement rather than replace the executive branch in this.
ThePrincess? Parisi: what role will dnate have
ThePrincess? Parisi: wb leon
Jon Seattle: wb Leon 🙂
Leon Ash: thanks
Patroklus Murakami: well this seems very much like something the PIO would work on. not sure what dnate’s role would be
Jon Seattle hands Leon a new internet provider 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: me neithier
Sudane Erato: 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: i think its a mix of PIO and RA
ThePrincess? Parisi: we set the basic/core info and the pio adds
Patroklus Murakami: the RA can provide balance so that the texts are reflective of the mix in the community
ThePrincess? Parisi: indeed
Jon Seattle: Princess, have you discussed this with Rose and Dnate as yet?
Patroklus Murakami: and don’t appear ‘one-sided’ (though I doubt they would in reality)
ThePrincess? Parisi: i have discussed some aspects with rose
ThePrincess? Parisi: but not with dnate .. i think er.. perhaps just that a tour woudl be good
ThePrincess? Parisi: but no details
Patroklus Murakami: who would head the tour committee? how much would this cost?
ThePrincess? Parisi: i konw there is support from the community on the general concept of a tour of this nature
ThePrincess? Parisi: between 4500 and 6 K
ThePrincess? Parisi: l
Patroklus Murakami: yes, it seems like a good idea. difficult to see a good reason to object to it 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: 🙂
Jon Seattle: My thought is that the exec / PIO might take the lead, and the RA serve as a kind of editorial board
ThePrincess? Parisi: sounds fine with me JOn
ThePrincess? Parisi: we can be the fall guys if they dont like how its put
Patroklus Murakami: i think that rose and dnate are quite busy. so they will need someone else (heading the tour cttee) to drive it forward. i agree that the RA should act as a kind of editorial board though. i just hope we don’t slow things down too much 🙂
Jon Seattle: indeed
ThePrincess? Parisi: we wont if i can help it
Patroklus Murakami: we=the new RA!
ThePrincess? Parisi: im gald to head the committee and work with rose
ThePrincess? Parisi: who else wants to be involved
Patroklus Murakami: i would suggest calling a meeting of ppl interested in helping
ThePrincess? Parisi: k
Patroklus Murakami: that would go wider than the RA and citizens here present
Jon Seattle: yes, good idea
ThePrincess? Parisi: of course
Leon Ash: It sure does
Patroklus Murakami: i think the virtus/monastery group would probably be keen to help
MT Lundquist: i’m happy to assist in this
ThePrincess? Parisi: great
ThePrincess? Parisi: do we voet
ThePrincess? Parisi: vote
Patroklus Murakami: so, the head of the tour committee would be theprincess, and the budget is L$6k?
Jon Seattle: Lets do this, give our okay to this plan as a sense of the RA resolution, but expect the comittee to come back with more details, timeline, budget etc.
ThePrincess? Parisi: is that neessary
ThePrincess? Parisi: we dont want it too slwo
ThePrincess? Parisi: slow
Jon Seattle: No, it should not slow things down too much. My point is that this need not be a law, its mor of a project
Patroklus Murakami: well, the RA will need to approve the text of the notecards for example. that would mean some oversight of the process but hopefully not too much delay
Jon Seattle: I think we can do the budget line now if you like
Jon Seattle: *more of
ThePrincess? Parisi: the tour costs 4500 L
ThePrincess? Parisi: and the extra cars or different vehicles are 450
ThePrincess? Parisi: some of them
ThePrincess? Parisi: but if a person object s to the tour and complains it might be good to have a law?
ThePrincess? Parisi: it wil travel about the sims
ThePrincess? Parisi: right of access
ThePrincess? Parisi: what do you think
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to pass this as it is provided the RA is involved in producing the materials. it’s a three month trial and the RA can intervene if it’s not happy. i say ‘go for it’
ThePrincess? Parisi: 🙂
Jon Seattle: Sounds good to me
Patroklus Murakami: it sounds like we’re ready to vote
Patroklus Murakami: let’s approve a budget of L$6k so there’s reasonable headroom
Patroklus Murakami: and theprincess as head of the tour committee
Patroklus Murakami: RA members pls say ‘aye’ or ‘nay’
Leon Ash votes aye
Jon Seattle: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Patroklus Murakami: that passes 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we have no further items on the agenda today
Sudane Erato: short meeting! 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you very much i will do the best i can to make this good for CDS
Sudane Erato: great 🙂
Jon Seattle: Brian just asked for a 7-day in an email
Jon Seattle: though it does not sound as if there will be anything more to vote on 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: alexion is here
Patroklus Murakami: well this can go to 7-day but it’s already passed with 4 in favour 🙂
ThePrincess? Parisi: he canvote
Patroklus Murakami: hi alexikon. oh, we lost him
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we adjourn as we have no more business. we can continue to chat informally if you like
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: ty all 🙂
Jon Seattle: sounds good. Thanks.
Leon Ash: Till next time
ThePrincess? Parisi: bye
MT Lundquist: bye
Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned. ty everybody
The meeting closed at 12:40 Linden time.

Permalink.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 166, 41)

Meeting on 2008-01-20
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess? Parisi: huggs
Leon Ash has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle: Hi MT
Patroklus Murakami: please touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded for the chat log
MT Lundquist: hi
ThePrincess? Parisi has indicated consent to be recorded.
Alexicon Kurka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sonja Strom has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: we’ll begin the penultimate meeting of this RA
Patroklus Murakami: there’s only one agenda item – approval of aliasi’s appointment as content archivist
Patroklus Murakami: the law says the appointment is made by the SC and then ratified (or not) by the RA
Patroklus Murakami: the SC appointed aliasi at their last meeting
Patroklus Murakami: so it is up to us to consider
Patroklus Murakami: would anyone like to speak on this item or request further information?
Jon Seattle: Sure. I would like to support Alisi’s nomination for this spot.
ThePrincess? Parisi: Only that i have spoken with her about this and she seems sincere about wanting to do it.. and i would be agreed to have her.
Jon Seattle: She has experience for more than one term as chancellor
Jon Seattle: Knows our environment and building well
Jon Seattle: and has proven very responsible in carrying our her duties
Jon Seattle: thanks
Patroklus Murakami: i think aliasi will do a fine job, and it’s an important post to fill
ThePrincess? Parisi: thank you jon
Patroklus Murakami: are we ready to vote? please say aye or nay
Jon Seattle: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Alexicon Kurka: aye
Patroklus Murakami: leon? ready to vote?
Leon Ash: I was just aobut to ask if I still do
Leon Ash: but Aye
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Jon Seattle: yes you certainly do 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the new RA starts in february
Patroklus Murakami: there’s still life in this one yet 🙂
Leon Ash: Ah, hence the penultimate
PMRobert Walpole: Hello…. Am I disturbing?
Leon Ash: Hi PMRobert
Patroklus Murakami: ok, on the appointment of aliasi as content archivist, could i have your votes please? aye to approve, nay to disapprove
Jon Seattle: aye
ThePrincess? Parisi: aye
Patroklus Murakami votes aye
Sonja Strom: PM, this is a meeting of the Representative Assembly. You are welcome to attend as a visitor.
PMRobert Walpole: oh ok thanks
Patroklus Murakami: i think we’re just waiting for one more vote – leon?
Alexicon Kurka: aye
Patroklus Murakami: oh, and alexicon
ThePrincess? Parisi: hes gonna vote
Patroklus Murakami: i beg your pardon
Leon Ash: I vote Aye
Patroklus Murakami: in that case, aliasi is duly appointed as Content Archivist
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah!
Patroklus Murakami: brian has requested a 7-day vote as he cannot be here today, but with 5/7 votes that passes in any case
Patroklus Murakami: that’s all for today’s agenda. our last meeting will be next sunday at the usual time
Patroklus Murakami: and then the new RA will be sworn in once i’ve found a new meeting time (hoping we can keep it the same as this one)
Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we adjourn, though ppl are welcome to stay on and discuss the recent election outcome 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hearing no howls of protest i declare the meeting adjourned 🙂
The meeting closed at 12:20 Linden time.

Permalink.