Representative Assembly Minutes & Transcripts
Per Representative Assembly procedures, all meetings are recorded and transcripts posted for public review. The following are the transcripts for R.A. meetings for the 6th Assembly. Meeting on 2007-02-04 Michel Manen: So Pat, you will be SC Member, RA Member, and Commisison Chair? Even if you’re on leave from the SC, that;s quite a cumulation of functionos. Meeting on 2007-02-11 Meeting on 2007-02-18 Claude Desmoulins: I feel better about that now. Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-03-04 Patroklus Murakami: do u want to take the regional planning commission report now claude? or wait til justice gets back? Patroklus Murakami: the main featuer of the plan is that is deals with the current features of our existing sims – the height of NFS for example. and it allows flexibility and creativity in filling in the remaining 14 sims in the framework Justice Soothsayer: I have some evening commitments in the next couple weeks that would make it very difficult Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-03-18 Claude Desmoulins: No, you start a civil suit and get part of my assets, including land, transferred to you as aprt of the settlement or judgement. TOPGenosse Brouwer: For the sake of good communication I propose the following: Have someone who was involved write a small paragraph about the abolishment of the Guild (Jon?), and one about repealing Ash’s Judiciary documents (SC?) and also a small paragraph on “what is the CDS”, and have those 3 things published on Neufreistadt.info? “Normal” citizens really don’t have a clue about the first 2, and the last item is NOT on the website yet. Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-03-21 Aliasi Stonebender: If she does, but doesn’t complain about the signs or try to set them back out… well, that’s more or less desirable, no? Rose Springvale: and that he was threatened with expulsion from cDs Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-03-25 Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-04-01 Sudane Erato: would be that a purchase some time in the summer might be OK Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-04-15 Meeting on 2007-04-22 Meeting on 2007-04-29 Beathan Vale: Pat — why are we any more open to that by allowing group-based citizenship — couldn’t a person finance private purchases in exchange for votes by funding the purchase of individual lots? Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Meeting on 2007-05-13 Bromo Ivory: (I joined for community not prims) Justice Soothsayer: Question seems to be limited to whether it should be reserved just for newcomers Justice Soothsayer: I’d be more inclined to support it if the sponsors came to us with commitments for other funding for us to match, rather than having us make the commitment to matching funds first. Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600) Meeting on 2007-05-20 Gwyneth Llewelyn: prims, and well, special rates for land (or zero) Patroklus Murakami: is there agreement to the idea ‘in principle’? Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye ? 10-15% approximately 🙂 Claude Desmoulins: OTOH Beathan Vale: I want to say — this is what we will do — but we are still willing to talk Patroklus Murakami: there has been virtually no discussion of the structure proposed for the institution. none of the relationship between teh RA and the VPR, no real understanding of what it means. Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can’t say, lol ? he didn’t give me permission to quote him directly ? but he said as much on the forums, let me just take a look at the exact post… Transcript needed. Agenda: Reports . . . notecard: Mizou resigns from the RA 3 June 2007 PCA: Referenda (Desmoulins) Present: Claude Desmoulins (chair), Beathan Vale, Patroklus Murakami time 12:07 SLT Transcript Needed. Sudane Erato: we’ll have to draft your for soome NGO chairmanship 🙂
6th Representative Assembly
RA Meeting: February 04, 2007
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are we all inside?
Diderot Mirabeau has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Need a chair Delia?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is one “mici Ah” on the sim somewhere…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, welcome all to the Office Affirmation Act 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m just going to give a notecard to the new RA members…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and get rid of the sword!!!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, much better!
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry about that, I’m beating world records in lag today hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although it’s a bit redundant,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would like to thank the new RA members first in their willingness to serve.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, congratulate them once more for winning their seats 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Finally, to thank all citizens for keeping this democratic government of us alive ? by voting and paticipating in the CDS.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: One of our citizens, Rudy Ruml (sadly a bit away due to his illness), once wrote that a “solid democracy”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: needs to have at least 2 elections with good participation,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to be classified as “democratic”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re on our 6th term now. I think this says something
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like the previous ones, although they seemed to be ages ago,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I expect we’re still “young” and learning about what works and what doesn’t
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We might have an interesting term ? as several changes will happen, both inside the CDS, and perhaps even outside of it: new groups also trying democratic participation.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re the Ancient Ones here 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The “wise ones” ? who perhaps sometimes made mistakes, but who learned from them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and still manage to go along with the CDS. Setting, hopefully, an example.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wish the new RA members a great 6th term 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok… I’ve given the RA members an “office affirmation”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the benefit of the audience, two paragraphs as an explanation:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: “The Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a democratic state where freedom of religious choice is embodied in our Constitution, through one of its Founding Documents, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Some religions actually forbid taking oaths, and some of the RA members are non-religious, so the following words will be empty of any mentioning of supranatural entities. However, anyone so willing, may add the words “So help me God” or any other entity at the end, if they wish so. They can also replace the words “affirm” by “swear” if they are so inclined. ”
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is just to clarify why each member might, in turn, say something slightly different, according to their personal convictions 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we start with Claude first?
Claude Desmoulins: I, Claude Desmoulins, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice next…. (we’re doing it on alphabetical order)
Justice Soothsayer: I, Justice Soothsayer, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Justice! Now Michel, please….
Michel Manen: I, Michel Manen, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators. So help me God.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Michel!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next in turn is Patroklus…
Patroklus Murakami: I, Patroklus Murakami, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And finally Publius…
Publius Crabgrass: I, Publius Crabgrass, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Publius 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Applause, please 🙂 We have now our RA members 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Sudane Erato: bravo bravo !!!
Moon Adamant applauds
Sudane Erato: yaya!
Patroklus Murakami breaks into applause
Jon Seattle: Yea!
Gwyneth Llewelyn sits down now 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: A small reminder before I proceed.
Claude Desmoulins: Since we are taking a transcipt, please touch the black box to my right to indicate consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rudeen Edo has indicated consent to be recorded.
TOPGenosse Brouwer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Delia Lake has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: As I sat down to put together this address, I thought of the question “Where are we?”
Claude Desmoulins: Even the question is harder than it looks.
Claude Desmoulins: We’re at 246722.6, 249788.1, 178.7 .
Claude Desmoulins: We’re in the Neufreistadt (New) Rathaus. How many here remember the old one?
Claude Desmoulins: We’re in Western Canada, the Central US, Metro London and Portugal.
Claude Desmoulins: We’re on a server somewhere near San Francisco, California.
Claude Desmoulins: That’s a lot of places to be all at once.
Claude Desmoulins: That’s not a bad way to answer the question in a broader sense either.
Claude Desmoulins: Six months ago, we knew, the thirty or so of us who were citizens as of August 1 2006, where we were. We had just parted ways with (or broken free from, depending on your opinion) this community’s founders. It was a messy separation, and one that some saw coming, even if they didn’t want to admit it.
Claude Desmoulins: We all knew, roughly, where we wanted to go. We wanted to grow, in space and citizens. We had just changed our name to the “Confederation of Democratic Simulators”.
Claude Desmoulins: A lot of folk chuckled at that. Thirty-five people on one sim calling themselves a confederation took some chutzpah.
Claude Desmoulins: Lo and behold, six months later the term has some substance to it. We’re not Dreamland, but two simulators is still two simulators. We even have our first mainland expansion in development.
Claude Desmoulins: We also managed to double our population. This, too, was new for us. Growth, when it happened, had been slow. Could we grow this fast and maintain our sense of community? Would we keep going in the same direction?
Claude Desmoulins: By and large we’ve managed quite well. We’re still here; we’re financially stable; and debates, though often vigorous, are mostly civil.
Claude Desmoulins: The question is no longer “Can virtual democracy survive?” We’ve shown that it can. The new question is,
Claude Desmoulins: “What’s the new question?”
Claude Desmoulins: Is it “How shall we create a legal system?”
Claude Desmoulins: That was certainly the front runner for the title last term.
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe it’s “How do we create a vibrant community of builders and artisans?”, or “How do we keep from drowning in red tape?”
Claude Desmoulins: If we don’t like those, there are lots of old ones like “What shall we do with the SC?” to keep us busy. There were many structural questions we thought about last term, but didn’t answer.
Claude Desmoulins: That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Making drastic changes in the way our little virtual state works is not something to be done lightly.
Claude Desmoulins: Even so, there comes a time to make choices. This body is in a unique position to tackle the tough questions of where we will turn our energies and what sort of place we will grow to be.
Claude Desmoulins: Its members represent four factions, more than had ever existed at one time prior to about a month ago.
Claude Desmoulins: It is our task to work together as representives of the growing diversity in our community.
Claude Desmoulins: It is our task to tackle the future of the Guild and SC.
Claude Desmoulins: It is our task to craft a judicial system in which all of our citizens and the rest of SL can have confidence.
Claude Desmoulins: It is our task to manage continued growth.
Claude Desmoulins: That’s a lot of tasks.
Claude Desmoulins: We’ll need _everyone’s_ help to get them done.
Claude Desmoulins: Here is a very different place than it was six months ago. We stretch across two sims in SL and 16 timezones in the real world. The days of everyone knowing everyone are passing. I fully expect this to be the last RA with fewer than nine members.
Claude Desmoulins: We must find new ways of doing things, and we must ,regarless of our differences, disagreements, and debates, work together.
Claude Desmoulins: Thank You.
Sudane Erato: bravo!!
Patroklus Murakami claps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bravo indeed 🙂
Sudane Erato: yay!
Justice Soothsayer cheers
Publius Crabgrass: /clpa
Patroklus Murakami: well said
Moon Adamant applauds
Jon Seattle: yea!
TOPGenosse Brouwer: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Please don’t forget to touch the recoder 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Now a couple of announcements.
Claude Desmoulins: *recorder
Gwyneth Llewelyn touches twice and gets a complain from the recorder.
Claude Desmoulins: We of the RA have made a decision to keep the weekly in-woeld meeting to an hour.
Claude Desmoulins: If you’re counting down , we have 20 minutes left today.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Accordingly, I have asked to create a private forum, parallel to what the SC does with forum moderations.
Claude Desmoulins: Current RA procedures allow reference to seven day discussion and vote. They do not specify the mechanism for this discussion.
Claude Desmoulins: I’d also like to make a request to those presenting reports to the Assembly to submit those reports on notecard 24 hours in advance of the meeting.
Claude Desmoulins: Then we can use in world time for questions.
Claude Desmoulins: If you’ll touch the document box to my left, you’ll get an agenda.
Claude Desmoulins: Our first order of business is a matter related to the regional planning comission.
Claude Desmoulins: The Citizen Involvement Act stipulates that, while any citizen may participatem commission chairs be RA members.
Claude Desmoulins: Moon, appointed to chair the planning commission, has left the RA,
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Is there a current member willing to replace her?
Michel Manen: I would like to submit an amendment to the CIA, to the effect that any Citizen with special skills and experience in the field could become chair if approved by the RA.
Claude Desmoulins: Moon, you wrote the bill, what was the original thought behind requiring an RA chair?
Moon Adamant: oh, basically
Moon Adamant: seeing that these issues would be orginated in RA discussion
Moon Adamant: to keep the link to RA, so as to ease reports, etc
Claude Desmoulins: Has any of that changed?
Moon Adamant: changed how, pardon?
Claude Desmoulins: I guess that was more of a general question,
Justice Soothsayer: I think having an RA member chair makes sense, keeps the link between RA and Commission, and establishes that these commissions are primarily designed to help the RA
Michel Manen: Well, the Chair would report directly to the RA, so the reasons Moon invokes would be met.
Justice Soothsayer: If Pat is willing, I’d nominate him for the job.
Moon Adamant: yes indeed Justice
Justice Soothsayer: and when I was co=chair with Moon, she did all the heavy lifting, so I know Pat will have good help. 😉
Michel Manen: I believe professional qualifications should trump political office in this case.
Claude Desmoulins: I wonder if the expertise language is ambiguous Who decides and evaluates special skills, etc.
Patroklus Murakami: i’d be happy to do it. i think it’s important to maintain the link between the RA and this commission. moon has broad shoulders (and wings) which should help
Moon Adamant: lol
Publius Crabgrass: lol
Moon Adamant: i’ll be happy to work with anyone the RA appoints 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: From what I’ve read of the CIA, I agree that these should be commissions with RA chairs.
Publius Crabgrass: Anyone with special expertise or interest is welcome to help, as I understand it.
Claude Desmoulins: Since the question of the chair was on the floor, we’ll take that then vote on Michel’s amendment.
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of appointing Pat to replace Moon as chair?
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye
Patroklus Murakami: how can we vote on michel’s amendment? it hasn’t been submitted as per our procedures
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Michel Manen: abstain
Patroklus Murakami: abstain
Claude Desmoulins: Pat has raised a point of order, with which the chair agrees.
Claude Desmoulins: The motion to appont pat carries
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: congrats, or condolences, Pat, as the case may be
Moon Adamant: lol
Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes indeed, Justice 😉
Publius Crabgrass chuckles
Moon Adamant: i will be calling you briefly on that Pat
Patroklus Murakami: i suspect it’s the latter
Claude Desmoulins: Next. Chancellor Permanence,
Michel Manen: congratulations, Pat. 🙂
Moon Adamant: and now… i must apologize to everyone
Claude Desmoulins: Discussion
Moon Adamant: but i must be off
Justice Soothsayer: goodnight Moon
Moon Adamant: congratulations again to everyone… and good work
Claude Desmoulins: We have about five minutes left,
Patroklus Murakami: ok moon, goodnight 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Good night
Moon Adamant: see you all soon .)
TOPGenosse Brouwer: bye Moon
Jon Seattle: Goodnight Moon 🙂
Sudane Erato: bye Moon 🙂
Diderot Mirabeau: bye Moon
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, permanent or not, don’t we need to appoint a Chancellor since Aliasi’s term expired at the end of the last session?
Claude Desmoulins: The application period is open for 10 days
Claude Desmoulins: We’ll appoint one next week
Publius Crabgrass: wouldnt it make sense for the person(s) applying to know whether it is a permanent job?
Gwyneth Llewelyn notices that this was also posted on the website 😉
Claude Desmoulins: The job isn’t permanent
Claude Desmoulins: The office is
Publius Crabgrass: right
Publius Crabgrass: I might suggest that the person who gets the job keeps it until his/her successor is apppointed, so we won’t have future 10-day gaps at the beginning of each term.
Claude Desmoulins: Settling the executive question would allow us to move on to AC reform or abolition.
Claude Desmoulins: I believe the amendment on the floor does that.
Publius Crabgrass reads it again
Claude Desmoulins: Are we ready to vote?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, seems to clarify it…
Publius Crabgrass: yes, agree, and we can vote
Patroklus Murakami: i have a suggestion. it shd say “All references to ‘Neufreistadt-CDS’ or ‘Neufreistadt’ shall be changed to CDS
Patroklus Murakami: *the CDS
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll take that as friendly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: Anyone not ready to vote?
Claude Desmoulins: Hearing none. All in favor?
Patroklus Murakami: ready
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Claude Desmoulins: We have reached our hour,
Claude Desmoulins: Do we want to try to look at 6-1 on the private forum?
Claude Desmoulins: or put it next week after we elect a Chancellor?
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, which one is 6-1? There’s no embedded notecard
Claude Desmoulins: Kill Bill
Patroklus Murakami: i think it needs discussion
Claude Desmoulins: from Publius
Justice Soothsayer: ah, OK, it’s in there
Claude Desmoulins: Do we do that discussion on the forum or next week here?
TOPGenosse Brouwer mumbles from audience: Thanks SP for not including the franchulate act in ‘Kill Bill’, very polite 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: forum discussion is ok with me
Claude Desmoulins: Pat, Michel, Justice?
Justice Soothsayer: I’m willing to try the forums discussion option
Patroklus Murakami: depends on how the forum discussion goes 🙂 we may still need to discuss it here
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s refer 6-1 to forums then.
Publius Crabgrass: OK
Patroklus Murakami: if we haven’t reached a consensus
Claude Desmoulins: Can constitutional revision wait until next week?
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Publius Crabgrass: yes
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Publius requested it as a discussion item only.
Claude Desmoulins: OK
Claude Desmoulins: The chair moves adjournment
Claude Desmoulins: Any objection?
Patroklus Murakami: no
Publius Crabgrass: none
Justice Soothsayer: no
Claude Desmoulins: We are adjourned.
The meeting closed at 13:07 Linden time.RA Meeting: February 11, 2007
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Since we’re all here, let’s begin.
Claude Desmoulins: Pat, please don’t forget to post a planning commission report.
Patroklus Murakami: will do
Claude Desmoulins: Since we’re on a tight schedule I don’t want to take in world time unless we need to.
Claude Desmoulins: First –Chancellor
Claude Desmoulins: As far as I know, the incumbent is the only candidate.
Claude Desmoulins: Has anyone else made themselves known to you?
Publius Crabgrass: None
Justice Soothsayer: Nope
Patroklus Murakami: no
Claude Desmoulins: Before we vote I want to raise an iissue.
Michel Manen: no
Claude Desmoulins: The constitution requires the Chancellor to attend one RA meeting a month.
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Aliasi has indicated she is unavailable during the RA’s regular meeting times.
Claude Desmoulins: So, do we look at altering the reporting requirement (changing it to something like, the chancellor will make regular reports to the RA), or something else?
Patroklus Murakami: we could hold a monthly meeting at a different time to enable the chancellor to givve her report
Michel Manen: well, i think it is quite important for the Chancellor to particiapte in at least some of the RA’s meetings
Justice Soothsayer: since we established we’re going to try to do more business per the forums, maybe “attendance” might not be the right term?
Patroklus Murakami: i think it’s important that we hold the chancellor to account
Michel Manen: 🙂
Moon Adamant: hello all 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hi moon 🙂
Michel Manen: hello moon
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, but does that account have to be via a synchronous in world meeting?
Sudane Erato: hey Moon
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Moon Adamant hugs Jon :))
Michel Manen: I think so, yes
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hi Moon
Claude Desmoulins: If so, we have to look at alternate scheduling (shudders)
Moon Adamant: hi hi 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: well, that *is* what it says in the constitution so… yes
Justice Soothsayer: or meetings when not all 5 are present
Claude Desmoulins: If there were another candidate ,we could consider that in our choice of chancellor, but there isn’t
Claude Desmoulins: I suppose we can elect Aliasi, then sound her out about when she is available and try to set up at least a monthly meeting with her.
Claude Desmoulins: Is that workable?
Patroklus Murakami: sounds good to me
Publius Crabgrass: OK
Justice Soothsayer: sounds fine with me
Michel Manen: yes
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of reelecting Aliasi as Chancellor…
Michel Manen: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Michel Manen: ok this has a wiff of Eastern Europe lol
Patroklus Murakami: really michel? why?
Claude Desmoulins: Next, back to 6-1
Michel Manen: just kiding
Michel Manen: one candidate unanimous vote
Claude Desmoulins: The forum were quiet on this.
Michel Manen: i was joking 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: yes, I’d like to speak to this a bit, Claude
Claude Desmoulins: To the extent I could sense a consensus …after Publius..
Claude Desmoulins: Can we keep to 10 min here?
Publius Crabgrass: I appreciate what you’ve done to start a “code in force” set of the bills on the wiki
Publius Crabgrass: that takes much of the steam out of Kill Bill, but it shouldn’t be the sort of thing you would have to do all by yourself.
Publius Crabgrass: sorry, 10 mins OK with me
Claude Desmoulins: I’d like some input on how we might organize it.
Publius Crabgrass: I was thinking we might consider some sort of Legislative REview Commission
Publius Crabgrass: get folks like Oni and Beathan to help, which could also be charged with trying to, er, simplify the language of our Constitution.
Publius Crabgrass: to make the Constitution and our Code more easily accessible and understodd
Publius Crabgrass: *understood
Patroklus Murakami: that’s a different proposal publius, isn’t it? what about the Kill Bill? are you still proposing that we vote on it?
Publius Crabgrass: I’d like to hear from the rest of us to see if that makes sense
Publius Crabgrass: I haven’t drafted anything formally, Pat, but yes, it would be a substitute for 6-1.
Patroklus Murakami: may I?
Publius Crabgrass yields to the distinguished Pat
Patroklus Murakami: i think we need to proceed on the Kill Bill initiative as publius has agreed with claude, via reorganisation of our sites content
Patroklus Murakami: but it’s not rocket science, it doesn’t need a commission to do that. just a couple of volunteers
Michel Manen: it depends what “to do that” imples 🙂
Michel Manen: if it involves rewording the constitution…
Patroklus Murakami: on the broader issue of constitutional simplification, i’d like to see a separate proposal on that. if it was just about making the language clearer, and not changing our institutions, i’d be broadly in support of that
Justice Soothsayer: yes, it seems to me that identifying what laws are actually in force is a good thing, but could involve making some legislative determinations of what should and shouldn’t be considered “in force”.
Claude Desmoulins: What if we appoint Publius to head up a reorganization effort, with the goal of bringing a draft for legislative reorganization back here in … how long?
Claude Desmoulins: I’d rather do the constitution separately.
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: michel, i’m talking about the kill bill proposal, i.e that we identify which laws are ‘in force’ and then either repeal or regorganise the others. no constl changes
Patroklus Murakami: we have it, don’t we? it’s in the kill bill proposal
Michel Manen: thats fine 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: thats fine with me Claude, but I don’t want to do it all by myself either!
Claude Desmoulins: Publius, you’d just have to chair.
Claude Desmoulins: How about this for a substitute….
Patroklus Murakami: do we all have access to make changes on the wiki? why not let publius reorganise the content and then we can shout if we don’t like it. the changes can always be undone that way and there’s less bureaucracy
Publius Crabgrass: claude and I have access to the wiki, i think
Claude Desmoulins: Pubiius shall chair a commission on legislative reorganization. It shall by date X return to the RA with a proposal for legislative reorganization, including repeal of obsolete or superceded acts, as it deems appropriate. It shall not consider the text of the constitution.
Michel Manen: good
Claude Desmoulins: Aliasi can give whoever else needs it access
Claude Desmoulins: I would be fine to let the commission such as it is post the draft versions of their work to the wiki, as long as they were marked as such
Patroklus Murakami: seems fairly bureaucratic to me claude. how many ppl want to get involved in a commission on reorganising content on the wiki!
Claude Desmoulins: I do think this body ought to sign off when it’s done.
Claude Desmoulins: Time
Claude Desmoulins: I’m happy either way.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we kick this back to forums?
Publius Crabgrass: I’m OK with Claude’s proposal
Patroklus Murakami: i agree with u claude on RA sign off
Michel Manen: if its simple reorganisation im for keeping it as simple as posible
Michel Manen: but yes ill go along
Claude Desmoulins: The commission doesn’t need to be esp. formal
Claude Desmoulins: Do we want to vote onthe substitute? and what’s the deadline?
Publius Crabgrass: It would probably take at least a couple of weeks
Publius Crabgrass: given the pace of things so far
Claude Desmoulins: If you think you can get it done it 2, can we shoot for the 25th?
Publius Crabgrass: how about the week after that?
Michel Manen: yes
Michel Manen: gives you felxibility
Claude Desmoulins: What’s that date?
Publius Crabgrass: 4 MArch 2007
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll take March 4 as a friendly.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we vote on the substitution.
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Michel Manen: aye
Publius Crabgrass: OK
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Claude Desmoulins: now on passage of 6-1 as substituteds..
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Publius Crabgrass votes yes
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Claude Desmoulins: next budget
Claude Desmoulins: Sudane gets the floor first.
Sudane Erato: I have presemnted the budget in 2 parts
Sudane Erato: first is a conservative projection of revenue, followed by the committed costs
Sudane Erato: I believe this will leave us with 199,000 available for “discretionary ” spending
Sudane Erato: second part…
Sudane Erato: I have made some very rough suggestions regarding discretionary spending
Sudane Erato: but I feel it is important that those items be dterermind by this body… rrather than by me
Sudane Erato: so,… that ‘s my presentation… a framework for decision
Claude Desmoulins: The notecard says $L122k discretionary. Where did the other $L77k come from?
Sudane Erato: the 122 is the total of my very preliminary suggestions
Sudane Erato: the amount *available* is 199
Claude Desmoulins: Ah
Claude Desmoulins: Other comments and questions on the budget?
Michel Manen: so 77.000 would be truly the discretionary part
Michel Manen: if we go ahead with your suggestions
Justice Soothsayer: Sudane, a couple of questions?
Sudane Erato: well, as you can see… its all discretionary
Sudane Erato: sure!
Patroklus Murakami: the 77k would be surplus
Justice Soothsayer: This budget includes repayment of our loans for CN?
Sudane Erato: yes Pat
Sudane Erato: yes it does, in the committed part…
Sudane Erato: the expense item of our repayment is the interest on the laon
Justice Soothsayer: But doesn’t include line items for further expansion yet, right?
Sudane Erato: the principal comes from the cash on hand, which is not properly part of a budget
Sudane Erato: thats correct
Sudane Erato: for instance
Sudane Erato: if you wanted such a item,
Sudane Erato: I would suggest that a “fund” be established
Sudane Erato: into which some regular amount of revenues were placed
Sudane Erato: on the other hand…
Sudane Erato: the funding of CN was accomplished without such a fund
Sudane Erato: so that obviously is a different way to do it
Justice Soothsayer: I think we might all appreciate your advice on which is the better way to finance expansion
Sudane Erato: well, personally, i like the idea of a slowly expanding balance sheet… meaning…
Sudane Erato: that we consistently run a ssmall profit
Sudane Erato: then..
Sudane Erato: when the time comes to expand
Sudane Erato: we seek funding such as we did this time
Sudane Erato: I think that process was a huge success
Sudane Erato: as it displayed the high confidence that others have in the integrity of our system
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, i agree
Sudane Erato: a repaet of that would not be harmful
Michel Manen: indeed 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: so, we could establish an ‘expansion fund’ which we contribute to regularly and then top up with loans as needed as sudane suggests
Sudane Erato: yes.
Sudane Erato: that would work
Patroklus Murakami: sounds like a good idea to me 🙂
Michel Manen: when do you think we might actually be able to proceed with the 3 sim, from a financial point of view, if we adopt this approach?
Sudane Erato: i am a very bid advocate of going slowly
Patroklus Murakami: i have one question on the discretionary spend. do we need 6k for a ‘Judiciary’ position?
Sudane Erato: so my suggestion would be one year from when we initiated the CN planning
Claude Desmoulins: Now that we’re looking at specific proposals, could we bounce this to forums? Though Even if we took all the discretionary and put it toward a new sim, it would only pay 20% of the purchase.
Sudane Erato: the fees are up to this body
Michel Manen: i just want to have an idea of Sudanes reasoing on this
Sudane Erato: ??
Sudane Erato: sorry, on what?
Michel Manen: the timeline i mean
Sudane Erato: oh…
Publius Crabgrass: A budget is our statement of priorities. I think including at least some contribution towards expansion makes sense.
Sudane Erato: well, as a financial person… I perhaps err on the side of stability
Sudane Erato: so I will always be dragging my heels on expansion
Claude Desmoulins: Can we refer to forums so we can look at the rest of the agenda?
Justice Soothsayer: what’s the deadline for passing a budget, Claude?
Patroklus Murakami: 7 day vote?
Claude Desmoulins: End of the month
Sudane Erato: mind you… the current month is within this budget
Sudane Erato: no harm in that…
Sudane Erato: only i make the comment
Claude Desmoulins: New budgets start 1 March and 1 September
Sudane Erato: ahh…
Sudane Erato: thats not the assumption I have worked on
Sudane Erato: perhaps I am wrrong
Claude Desmoulins: I’m fairly sure that was the intent, so the incoming RA would have a month to get the budget together,
Sudane Erato: i see…
Claude Desmoulins: Timew to check the transcripts 🙂
Sudane Erato: well, does not change much
Claude Desmoulins: Is therean objection to referring the budget discussion to forums?
Michel Manen: nay
Patroklus Murakami: no objection
Justice Soothsayer: no, but we should be sure to pass one by the end of the month
Claude Desmoulins: Indeed.
Claude Desmoulins: Next — Guild abolition
Claude Desmoulins: Discussion?
Patroklus Murakami: well
Publius Crabgrass: a technical point, I think the Article #s may be off; repleaing Article II would now eliminate the Chancellor!
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Pat, did you read my forum comments?
Patroklus Murakami: now that the executive has been made a permanent feature of our constitutional setup, the remaining need for the Guild (as was) has passed. the time is right to abolish the guild as a part of the govnt and reestablish a new guild as a body for creativity and training
Patroklus Murakami: yes claude. the reordering of numbers i’d take as a friendly (ty for th reminder publius :))
Claude Desmoulins: The other question I had was givingthe SC a fiscal veto.
Claude Desmoulins: The Chancellor already has veto power broader than the AC’s
Claude Desmoulins: Doesn’t that cover it?
Michel Manen: I dont think it should be purely an NGO- it should be fitted in our structure of governance, even if not as formally as the original one. And certainly not under the RA’s jurisdiction, to have its administraative members removed at will.
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, the PCA and the bill that follows are companion pieces, right? Once we abolish the “old” guild, why does the RA need to charter a “new” one – esp. when it is already chartering itself?
Moon Adamant: Action!
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s do one thing at a time
Claude Desmoulins: The Repeal amendment is on the floor.
Michel Manen: i dont think we can vote on one before we know what we can replace it with
Justice Soothsayer: Right, but the two are interrlated.
Michel Manen: indeed justice
Patroklus Murakami: claude, your point on the financial veto was that it was fine for this to go to the SC? am i right
Claude Desmoulins: I’d argue the Guild as governmental branch has been replaced by the chancellor
Claude Desmoulins: I don’t see why it needs to.
Claude Desmoulins: The veto the AC has is a superceded by the Chancellor’s
Michel Manen: we can show more creativy that having just governmental branches and private organisations, no?
Claude Desmoulins: five minutes
Patroklus Murakami: there is a problem with handing the AC veto on finance to the Chancellor. the chancellor is, after all, ‘selected’ by the RA
Claude Desmoulins: Butthe veto structure is the same. 2/3 to override.
Patroklus Murakami: it would make more sense to put that veto along with the other veto powers that the SC holds
Claude Desmoulins: It’s more clear to me now.
Moon Adamant: indeed, after all the SC could easily hold an exchequer
Michel Manen: I;m having trouble with an unelected body vetioing our budget
Claude Desmoulins: Me, too
Moon Adamant: and was the Guildmeister elected?
Publius Crabgrass: I have some concerns about that as well
Claude Desmoulins: But i understand the desire forthe veto to be independent.
Patroklus Murakami: why michel? they can veto our legisltion after all! is it a general concern about the unelected SC or specific to this question?
Michel Manen: i know that Pat as an SC member seems advantages in it, but i dont- the budget is the key function of the RA.
Michel Manen: it should not be averrdiden by the SC
Jon Seattle: The point really is that there is a need for an independant auditor. Both the RA and the Exec are very involved in the process. The SC is very careful, but it allows a third voice to make sure the numbers add up.
Patroklus Murakami: cheap shot michel. could u answer the question please?
Michel Manen: i agree jon
Michel Manen: i vote vote aye on an independent auditor
Jon Seattle: I do not recommend more than three branches however.
Jon Seattle: Historically three branches have served very well in the US government.
Michel Manen: its not a cheap shot Pat. Is the problem of cumulative mandates
Publius Crabgrass: is the SC the appropriate body to check excessive spending by the RA?
Patroklus Murakami: stop obfuscating. do u have a problem with the unelected SC veto generally or only on this issue michel? could u answer that qn pls?
Michel Manen: On th budgete issue only.
Claude Desmoulins: Our hour is up. We shall have to efer this to forums as well.
Claude Desmoulins: *refer
Patroklus Murakami: ty
Patroklus Murakami: well, we must debate the principle further on the forums
Publius Crabgrass: indeed
Michel Manen: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Unless there is strenuous objection….
Michel Manen: but we need a timeline
Claude Desmoulins: ……we are adjourned until next week.
The meeting closed at 13:01 Linden time.RA Meeting: February 18, 2007
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s begin
Claude Desmoulins: Budget.
Patroklus Murakami: why no discussion on traffice, events, anzere infohub as requested?
Michel Manen: wew have a deadline for the budget i think
Patroklus Murakami: we can discuss the budget first of course michel
Claude Desmoulins: I didn’t see it , and didn’t get notice in world. Also budget has to be done by the end of the month.
Patroklus Murakami: and should
Patroklus Murakami: could we add it to the end if we get time?
Michel Manen: ah you meant the agenda pat.. 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Justice Soothsayer: might be helpful to have that discussion w Ali present too
Patroklus Murakami: yes michel, that ‘s right. ty claude 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: As always don’t forget to touch the recorder.
Sudane Erato: on the budget
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: I would suggest raising the promo budget from 20 to 50,000
Sudane Erato: we seriously need a promotion effort
Sudane Erato: and we may have in the works an event for the opening of CN
Moon Adamant: hello all 🙂
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Patroklus Murakami agrees with sudande on that point …
Michel Manen: hi
Sudane Erato: hi Moon 🙂
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hi Moon
Moon Adamant hugs Jon
Moon Adamant: hi hi 🙂
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass: I’ve been convinced following our meeting that expansion can be financed outside the budget, so I don’t think we need a separate line item for it.
Sudane Erato: i agree
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: fair enough 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: should we take Sudane’s suggestion as a friendly amendment?
Sudane Erato: well… I will remind folks
Sudane Erato: that the discretionary section
Sudane Erato: was not intended as a “final” bill
Sudane Erato: only a suggestion
Sudane Erato: so, its not really an ammendment
Claude Desmoulins: It wouldn’t hurt to leave funds on the table for unanticipated circumstances or initiatives,
Patroklus Murakami: i agree with claude on that
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: a reasonable reserve
Publius Crabgrass: good point Claude
Claude Desmoulins: Even with the promotion increase, that leaves 40K some odd as a rainy day fund.
Sudane Erato: Claude, yes… its mostly a matter of having the authorization to spend such monies
Sudane Erato: when the need may arise
Michel Manen: and what will we do with it if not spent at the end of our term?
Sudane Erato: it adds to our reserve
Michel Manen: fine
Michel Manen: that should be stipulated
Sudane Erato: the fact of a reserve i feel is very healthy
Claude Desmoulins: I think it is.
Claude Desmoulins: We passed a reserve bill in RA 4.
Sudane Erato: ahhh… yes
Sudane Erato: that was a “minimum”
Michel Manen: no i mean unused funds should go into the resrve fund
Sudane Erato: but I din’t think that the remainder of a reserve needs to be mandated
Sudane Erato: yes, they would be… just by their existence
Sudane Erato: the real question is
Sudane Erato: the authorization to spend money
Sudane Erato: not specifically authorized in the budget
Michel Manen: a majority of th RA?
Sudane Erato: kind of the reverse of having a reserve…
Sudane Erato: being able to spend it
Claude Desmoulins: I presume additional expenditures would be done by legislative act.
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: indeeed
Patroklus Murakami: yes, budget additions
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: some kind of simple system
Sudane Erato: I would say to have that, rather than to have a legislated reserve
Sudane Erato: beyond what we have already
Sudane Erato: but thats another bill
Sudane Erato: I would suggest that this bill be ammended as to its effective dtaes
Sudane Erato: since my draft is wrong on that
Justice Soothsayer: March 1?
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: thru Aug 31
Claude Desmoulins: Is there a motion on the floor?
Patroklus Murakami: i move we approve the budget as amended
Michel Manen: Second
Publius Crabgrass: second
Publius Crabgrass: well, third, then. 😉
Claude Desmoulins: Just to be clear, the amendments are the dates and the increas of promotion to $L50K?
Claude Desmoulins: *increase
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Michel Manen: aye
Claude Desmoulins: discussion?
Claude Desmoulins: Seeing none
Claude Desmoulins: all in favor of approval….
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Claude Desmoulins votes aye
Sudane Erato: thank you everyone
Claude Desmoulins: Next. AC abolition
Claude Desmoulins: Pat has submitted a modified proposal.
Michel Manen: I suggest we cannot adopt this until we know what we replace the financial veto with
Patroklus Murakami: i disagree. can i say why?
Michel Manen: sure
Claude Desmoulins: Pat?
Patroklus Murakami: the financial veto *does* get held. by the Executive branch
Patroklus Murakami: so the RAs budget policy and financial accountability is to the Exec
Michel Manen: No, I do not agree.
Patroklus Murakami: why do u not agree? u donn’t agree that is the case? or that it should be the case?
Michel Manen: That this should be the case
Michel Manen: or that this is necessarily the case if wew abolish the AC
Claude Desmoulins: But Michel, as I understood it, the AG you propose couldn’t block a budget, just issue a report on it.
Michel Manen: exactly
Patroklus Murakami: well, on the latter point your are factually incorrect. the Chancellor *already* has a financial veto
Michel Manen: the ultimate responsibility would rest with us at election time
Michel Manen: that is the key function of the RA
Michel Manen: but
Patroklus Murakami: so what point are you making michel?
Michel Manen: the independent AG would make persuadive duggestions
Michel Manen: whoch we would ignore at our peril
Justice Soothsayer: the Chancellor’s veto is somewhat weakened by the fact that she must look to the RA for reappointment.
Michel Manen: so effectively giving us the choice whetherto follow the Ag’s recommendations aor not, and bearing untimate responsibility for our decisions in front of the votres
Patroklus Murakami: this is a bit at a tangent. the bill is about AC abolition, not the finanncial veto
Michel Manen: \well
Michel Manen: the two are interconnected
Kyjarat Yates: how r u
Patroklus Murakami: we need to remove a vestigial remnant of our government now there is no need for it
Michel Manen: technically the AC now has a financial veto
Claude Desmoulins: I think the AG bill could b de-linked
Michel Manen: if we remove the AG, there is no control over the RA’s budget powers at all
Patroklus Murakami: what is the alternative to passing this? maintaining the current situation where only 3 citizens can be in the AC?
Michel Manen: no
Patroklus Murakami: michel, there is no AG to remove
Michel Manen: deciding what to do regarding budget oversight
Patroklus Murakami: and why haven’t you drafted a proposal for us to consider?
Michel Manen: we discussed this in the forums.. i am happy to do so if i feel we are reacing a common position on it
Publius Crabgrass: the Chancellor’s veto may be a weak one, but its enough for me. I agree w Pat about removing vestigal branches of govt.
Patroklus Murakami: i think your AG proposal is a good idea. but we need to see a proposal to judge how it would work in practice
Michel Manen: Sudane? your opinion?
Claude Desmoulins: Since the AG has now explicit power, the RA could ignore it if it was in place. Therefore why not proceed with what Pat’s put forward today and consider the AG as a separate proposal.
Sudane Erato: i have no opinion on the constitutional side…
Michel Manen: no on the budget oversight side
Patroklus Murakami: i adapted this proposal because of objections about the financial veto going to the SC!
Sudane Erato: I am strongly in favor of an oversight or auditing function being put in place
Patroklus Murakami: *we* adapted, i should say 🙂
Michel Manen: if we have an agreement to what sudane just said i will go along with pats bill
Sudane Erato: i will strongly agrue for that
Sudane Erato: as long needed
Patroklus Murakami: i agree with what sudane has said but would need to see a proposal to decide on
Michel Manen: and i will draft a bill to that effect foe the next RA meeting
Publius Crabgrass: i quite agree about need for an auditor, but wonder if we have the depth in our talent pool
Claude Desmoulins: I think that’s a good idea.
Claude Desmoulins: I now call the question on the proposed amendment.
Sudane Erato: hehe… well, bookkeeping need not be rocket science 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: all in favor…?
Michel Manen: aye.. on the understanding theat the budget oversight issue will be dealth with as a matter of prioirty
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer voites Aye
Claude Desmoulins votes aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Justice Soothsayer: *votes
Claude Desmoulins: I’d like 10 minutes on new guild and ten on Anzere etc. then adjourn.
Claude Desmoulins: Pat and I are both out of town next weekend.
Claude Desmoulins: Could we hold the next meeting on the 4th of March?
Michel Manen: yes
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Publius Crabgrass: works for me
Patroklus Murakami: (not together i hasten to add 🙂
Michel Manen: smiles
Moon Adamant: 😀
Patroklus Murakami: ok by me too
Publius Crabgrass: not that there would be anything wrong with that, Pat 😉
Claude Desmoulins: *out of our respective towns on entirely separate travel events.
Claude Desmoulins: New guild
Patroklus Murakami: of course not, nothing wrong tiwht that at all 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: I like that the New Guild is regular legislation, not constitutional. Seems far more appropriate given the scope of its charge.
Jon Seattle: I agree.
Patroklus Murakami: ty publius
Patroklus Murakami: well, we’ve had discussion on the forums on this bill recently and for some time previously
Patroklus Murakami: i hope that people’s questions have been answered. but am happy to deal iwth any that are remaining
Claude Desmoulins: I had questions about expansion planning.
Michel Manen: my main issue is that it will be entirely non-governmental.. i think the guildmaster should be more involved in our deicsion-making process than this warrants
Sudane Erato: is there in fact a Guildmaster?
Patroklus Murakami: well the RA does have a degree of oversight michel so it’s not entirely private
Jon Seattle: Not as such in this proposal.
Moon Adamant: hmm, there’s faculty and board
Sudane Erato: there seems no need for one
Jon Seattle: There is a faculty which might get involved in providing advice.
Sudane Erato: only for a spokesperson
Jon Seattle: Yes, I agree with Sudane on that.
Patroklus Murakami: claude, i’m not sure i understand your point abouut expansion planning. do u think the New Guild should take on that role? or are you concerned that it should not?
Justice Soothsayer: nothing prohibits any RA member from getting involved in the new Guild
Claude Desmoulins: Quote: 1. To organize, plan, and execute the construction of new simulator regions, extending CDS territory. In his explanation of this, Jon made two points that concern me greatly First, in describing the process, he indicated that architectural models were required before an expansion or redevelopment proposal could be considered. Jon points out, rightly, that without builders on board, whatever it is won’t be built. However, under this model, someone with an idea, or even a plan, but no model builds, can’t get their proposal even considered. Thus the builders, by choosing which proposals to build or not build models for, would have control over not only what proposals are built, but which are even discussed. Second, I’m unclear whether the new guild’s control over projects is merely de facto (if they don’t want to build it, it doesn’t get built) or whether a proposal requires some sort of formal approval by this NGO before it can become reality.
Patroklus Murakami: aah, ‘builder power’ 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Do my questions make sense?
Patroklus Murakami: i think you’re overstating the case claude
Jon Seattle: Let me adress the first.
Patroklus Murakami listens to jon
Michel Manen: i was not talking about oversight as such. I was talking about direct input from a responsible Guild official into our deliberative process.
Jon Seattle: The process is set up to allow development of proposals over a period of time. Its is not an all or nothing system. eventually models will be needed (actually they are suggested rather than required)
Jon Seattle: but someone who is a builder can start the process and indeed get votes.
Claude Desmoulins: I was more concerned about the extent to which the process is open to non builders.
Jon Seattle: Say someone, I think Diderot mentioned a nature sim, draw those plans up on paper.
Jon Seattle: (and uploaded them as textures 🙂 )
Jon Seattle: A poster session would be sufficent to start the process. Claude are you worried that somehow non-builders wouldbe intimidated by the fact that the process is being organized by the guild?
Claude Desmoulins: No, I was concerned that ,were models required, a non builder wouldn’t have access to the process.
Patroklus Murakami: but claude, think of the counter-factual. imagine that we choose a design (by a non-builder) that no builders in the CDS *want* to build. how are we going to make it happen? we can’t force people to work on prjects that don’t inspire them and we can’t afford to contract the work out
Jon Seattle: Models, I recommend, should be made before we finalize the process. However the modeler need not be the proposer.
Michel Manen: i agree
Claude Desmoulins: And my second question?
Jon Seattle: One sec. I have the flu, so may be moving slowly 🙂
Jon Seattle: Approval by the guild in our proposal, means approval by the
Jon Seattle: population.
Jon Seattle: Let me talk about what this woud mean.
Jon Seattle: A proposal that won the competition for votes,
Jon Seattle: would be the Guld’s proposal submitted to the RA. Or we may provide more than one.
Dalen Attenborough: BYE ALL
Jon Seattle: The RA could decide to ask the proposer and the guild for more information, or even reject the proposal. At least as we now have this set up.
Claude Desmoulins: Our ten minutes are about up here.
Michel Manen: I would like to address the issue of direct input from a responsible Guild official into our deliberative process, just as we have Sudane’s input on budget issues…
Claude Desmoulins: Shall we kick this to forums so we hava a few minutes for Paqt’s other item?
Jon Seattle: Well, I hope that answers your question. The guild would accept the votes of the citizens.
Michel Manen: fine
Patroklus Murakami: no, i think we should take a vote today
Claude Desmoulins: And then submit the result to the RA?
Michel Manen: i dont thnk im ready to vote yes yet
TOPGenosse Brouwer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: it’s v frustrating to have items endlessly deferred because ppl come unprepared to RA meetings
Patroklus Murakami: if u have a proposed amendment michel why haven’t you drafted or submitted it?
Claude Desmoulins: I’d also like to seesome of this clarification either inthe bill or a chrter document the acceptance of which is one of the explicit actions of the legislation.
Publius Crabgrass: pat, I dont think that’s really fair, this bill raises a lot of questions.
Patroklus Murakami: it’s been on the forums since November !
Michel Manen: As I said, I would like to address the issue of direct input from a responsible Guild official into our deliberative process, just as we have Sudane’s input on budget issues… and because i’d rather we arrive at a common basic agreement before i draft competing billis Pat
Jon Seattle: Yes, it is well past time that we move on this.
Moon Adamant: Michel – why don’t you propose an amendment that deals with your concerns? something in the lines of ‘A spokeperson of the guild shall provide advice to RA and Exec when requested’
Moon Adamant: mind you, that’s addressed under 3
Claude Desmoulins: 3 doesn’t make any attempt to indicate who speaks for the NG in its official contact with the government. That needs to be in the bill or the charter.
Michel Manen: we are basically abolishing one branch of government and privatising another here…. the judiciary is destroyed and the SSC is unelected… i think we should think carefully about what we are doing before rushing onto adopting legilsation like tihs
Jon Seattle: That is in the bill.
Jon Seattle: Claude, read the rest.
Patroklus Murakami: rushing? it’s been under discussion since November!
Claude Desmoulins: Which subsection, Jon?
Publius Crabgrass: this is only our 2d meeting talking about it @ this RA.
Moon Adamant: Organization, 2
Michel Manen: i still dont think we have an overall vision of what our insitutions are and how they would work together
Moon Adamant: “The board represents the Guild in all dealings with the CDS. ”
Moon Adamant: and jon has crasherd
Claude Desmoulins: OK.
Claude Desmoulins: Coule a charter document, including theprovisions about sim planning, get on a notecard?
Patroklus Murakami: i may end up agrreing with what you propose michel but it would help if you voiced these concerns earlier and attempted to draft a proposal to bring to the meetinng. u can try to get agreement beforehand. raising new issues when the item is on the floor and you’ve had plenty of time to consider it is not v helpful when we have such limited time each week
Moon Adamant: well, claude, that can be done, yes
Claude Desmoulins: I also think the bill needs to include formal acceptance of the charter.
Claude Desmoulins: We’re out of time.
Michel Manen: point taken. i prefer we discuss these issues face to face before arguing it out on the forums.. I will do so, however, from now on.
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, we could put this on the forums and pass it once 4 of us have votes yes in the forum poll.
Conover’s SuperSmooth? Flight-Helper? 3.0a: Max-Velocity? now set to 15 M/s.
Conover’s SuperSmooth? Flight-Helper? 3.0a: Commands: /flyhelp to get documentation.
Claude Desmoulins: Shall we then kick to forums here?
Moon Adamant: wb Jon
Patroklus Murakami: we’ll try to take these points on board and redraft accordingly
Justice Soothsayer: rather than waiting another 2 weeks
Claude Desmoulins: We could indeed.
Moon Adamant: mind you, this thing has been on the table for AGES
Patroklus Murakami: i can’t vote over the next week
Justice Soothsayer: actually, only 3 votes need to pass.
Claude Desmoulins: \Any objection to referring NG to forums and meeting again on the 4th?
Michel Manen: nay
Patroklus Murakami: i’m away from internet access for a week
Moon Adamant: why don’t you pass it to 7 day mail?
Sudane Erato: oh my Pat… you will die! 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: i’m looking forward to it actually
Sudane Erato: I would
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: forums are more transparent. We can now vote in the closed forum.
Moon Adamant: nods
Jon Seattle: Thanks
Claude Desmoulins: And like a public in world meeting, they allow others to se our deliberations.
Claude Desmoulins: I move adjournment.
Moon Adamant: well Claude, you used to post the mails
Patroklus Murakami: what have we decided on voting?
Justice Soothsayer: Pat can vote when his internet-free period of pennance is over.
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Since we won’t be inworld for two weeks.
Patroklus Murakami: that will be okay justice. i’m back online on tues
Moon Adamant: so when will you discuss it?
Jon Seattle: Claude, dragging your heels? 😀
Patroklus Murakami: a week after next tueday
Justice Soothsayer: so who will post the revised bill?
Justice Soothsayer: and when?
Jon Seattle: I am not sure revisions have been requested.
Jon Seattle: Who has asked for what?
Moon Adamant: yes, please define procedures
Michel Manen: I did on the issue of direct input from a responsible Guild official into our deliberative process
Patroklus Murakami: i think michel and claude have both asked for revisions, of the New Guild charter if not this bill 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Claude also asked for revision on sim planning & “charter acceptance”
Moon Adamant: ok, that’s the thing already addressed under 3 and Organization,2 – but perhaps we can make that more clear
Jon Seattle: Okay, but it is not at all clear what he is asking for there. He refuses to acknowledge that the RA has the last word in the proposed process.
Claude Desmoulins: I like what I heard today. If we can get this on “paper” , this is a bill I can support.
Patroklus Murakami: i think it would help to put claude and michel’s minds at rest if those parts were made clearer
Michel Manen: same here if we deal with the input issue
Claude Desmoulins: That’s one of the things I think needs to be explicit in the bill and or charter.
Moon Adamant: surely 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: One other note: I really think it would be helpful for Ali to be present for the discussion of the telehub, maybe we could even try to meet on her schedule.
Jon Seattle: Okay, lets do this. Rather than having the members of the interrum Guild guess, please send me proposed revisions in the next day or two.
Claude Desmoulins: She’s available in world Tues and Thursday evenings,
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll try to get something to you late tonight.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I think Ali has no desire to get involved herself – unless RA wants to discuss transferring it officially to the CDS
Jon Seattle: I will then meet with the interrum board for their comments.
Michel Manen: yes its critical for Alisi to be here for Anzeri discussions
Claude Desmoulins: We’re 10 min over.
Patroklus Murakami: let’s conclude the New guild business first before we get on to the telehub
Claude Desmoulins: Can we adjourn?
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: no
Patroklus Murakami: how is the voting to take place?
Claude Desmoulins: forums
Patroklus Murakami: so i dont get a vote?
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, pat, just wanted to get that in before Claude adjourned.
Michel Manen: sure you do pat.. as soon as you can get to a connecton 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: you’re disenfranchising me, i can’t vote online over the course of the week
Moon Adamant: hmmm, if pat is away and you want the new bill on forums… and forums are closed
Moon Adamant: who will post it?
Michel Manen: the vote wont be final until you vote pat
Claude Desmoulins: could we do an extrodinary chanbge to RA procedures.
Justice Soothsayer: u can vote 27 February, Pat, or @ an airport terminal
Claude Desmoulins: Amending seven day to until the next inworld meeting?
Michel Manen: aye
Claude Desmoulins: I move that amendment to RA procedure
Patroklus Murakami: so two weeks?
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor
Michel Manen: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Claude Desmoulins: There now we have until the 4th to vote.
Patroklus Murakami: ty for taking that point
Claude Desmoulins: We are adjourned, unless there’s objection
Publius Crabgrass: nope
Michel Manen: bye bye for now
Justice Soothsayer: bye
The meeting closed at 13:16 Linden time.RA Meeting: March 04, 2007
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (14, 166, 41)
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Are there any reports?
Jon Seattle: lol
Beathan Vale: justice — here then gone
Patroklus Murakami: only the regional planning commission, but it’s on the agenda for later
Publius Crabgrass: i just wanted to report on the code project
Patroklus Murakami: do u want to take it now?
Michel Manen: lets start with that
Patroklus Murakami: code?
Michel Manen: of laws
Publius Crabgrass: yes, the commission to review the Code
Patroklus Murakami: sure, that would be good to hear about 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: not much to report; an initial burst of activity, and I’m waiting for the other volunteers to respond to a draft list of code sections, with each…
Publius Crabgrass: identified as to whether it is in force, merely historical, etc., and a possible list of subjects for an index
Michel Manen: i think we must be better at publicizing them and summarizing them in short clear texts…. a substantial number of our citizens have no idea they exist.. 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: ignorance of the law, and all that
Patroklus Murakami: well, i think the issue of new citizen induction/education could do with some discussion. i’d agree with michel that we need to consider this in that context
Claude Desmoulins: Good point
Michel Manen: good 🙂 i think its our duty to make an effort… this is not RL .people can just go on ignoring them with little consequence.. so yes, I agree with Pat
Michel Manen: i thought you could start pat.. and justice will catch up 🙂
Michel Manen: its already quarter past
Claude Desmoulins: Actually let’s do that. Pat…
Patroklus Murakami: well, i don’t want to reiterate what i’ve already posted on the forums. the link is http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?p=6028#6028
Patroklus Murakami: for anyone who hasn’t read it yet
Patroklus Murakami: i think we had a successful pair of meetings with good involvement from a number of citizens and interesed non-citizens
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps RA members could be invited to comment/question?
Michel Manen: well if i many i would like to say, as someone who participated in all sessions, that Moon and her team did an outstading job, as you can all see 🙂
Kape Rau has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: we now have options to consider
Patroklus Murakami: yes, moon deserves a lot of the credit for making this work
Michel Manen: that can be ingegrated into a coherent long term plan
Publius Crabgrass: the scale models are very helpful to understanding it
Michel Manen: and that was exactyl this commissions mandate
Kape Rau: i speak german soory
Michel Manen: hello justice
Jon Seattle: Hi Justice 🙂
Michel Manen: so i think pat must be commeded for brining in exactly what was asked of him
Justice Soothsayer: I am SO sorry, seem to be having serious network problems, had to reboot
Claude Desmoulins: Michel, am I to understand what’s on the wall opposite me as a counter proposal?
Michel Manen: wir sind in einer versammlung Kape
Michel Manen: not at all
Michel Manen: that is a specific proposal that could fit in perfectly with hte overall topographic design moon preapred
Michel Manen: kape setz dich bitte
Michel Manen: danke
Claude Desmoulins: Although the topo map stronly implies contiguous land, doesn’t it?
Michel Manen: it was not considered as part of the comissions ambit
Patroklus Murakami: yes, we discussed michel’s idea for a sim inbetween NFS and CN at the planning commission. we don’t want to cut off such an idea (or endorse it) but the plan is flexible enough to accomodate such ideas
Michel Manen: not necessarily
Claude Desmoulins: *strongly
Claude Desmoulins: Ah
Michel Manen: it looks at two clusters
Michel Manen: north and south
Michel Manen: how we connect them is up to the RA
Michel Manen: and the CDS citizens
Jon Seattle: Yes, I think that Moon’s proposal has room for some variation of Michel’s idea
Michel Manen: i think a waterway can connect as much as contiguous land with the proper theme and provide disctinct advantages.. btu that again was outside the commission scope as envisaged by Pat
Michel Manen: eactly
Michel Manen: exactly
Claude Desmoulins: 16 no?
Michel Manen: yes 16
Patroklus Murakami: 16 in total
Patroklus Murakami: current 2 plus 14
Justice Soothsayer: 14 new
Patroklus Murakami: sorry 18 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Bear with me. I haven’t had a chance to look at any of this.
Patroklus Murakami: 12 + 6 = 18 (jeez and i used to be a maths teacher!)
Michel Manen: lol yes pat 18 with the 2 exisiting ones
Claude Desmoulins: Other discussion?
Michel Manen: what is key here is that theme is not predetermiend by geography
Michel Manen: that remains to be discussed and determined by us all
Publius Crabgrass: do I understand correctly that it is extremely difficult to lower the height of Neufreistadt? That seems to dictate a lot of these plans.
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: i had a notetaker malfunction so we lost teh discussion from teh second meeting 🙁 but i think my summary is an accurate account of what we agreed
Jon Seattle: Indeed
Patroklus Murakami: yes publius
Michel Manen: it will take 8 sims to do that
Patroklus Murakami: the height of NFS is major limiting factor. (tho i prefer to think of it as something distinctive, a design constraint)
Michel Manen: yes quite right pat
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: can we approve this as our Regional Plan/Estate Expansion Framework?
Michel Manen: second
Claude Desmoulins: Any further discussione before we vote on the plan?
Justice Soothsayer: I like the work very much, great job Pat (and Moon, of course)
Publius Crabgrass: good to have a blueprint for where we are going
Michel Manen: indeed
Patroklus Murakami: this commission was a very pleasant experience
Michel Manen: yes it was 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: and i’m happy with the output
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s vote so we can move on.
Justice Soothsayer votes to approve the plan
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of approving the regional plan…
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Claude Desmoulins votes in favor
Claude Desmoulins: Next…
Claude Desmoulins: New guild
Claude Desmoulins: Discussion?
Michel Manen: i have a question. can you please jon explain the role of the Chair?
Publius Crabgrass: Claude, do the revisions address the points you made last meeting?
Claude Desmoulins: Again. I think so, though I have had literally a couple of minutes to read the revised version.
Jon Seattle: Well, the guild is organized into two groups. The board (open to all citizens willing to work on projects) and the faculty
Michel Manen: yes
Jon Seattle: there is a self – elected head of the faculty
Jon Seattle: and a spokes person for the board
Jon Seattle: I assume you are asking about the head of the faculty?
Michel Manen: yes
Jon Seattle: The faculty has someone of a limited role in the organizational structure — that is they mainly set standards and support projects
Jon Seattle: The chair convienes the meetings of the faculty
Jon Seattle: and serves as a spokesperson in general.
Michel Manen: let us say we have an RA meeting and we ask the head to participate and give us the views of the guild on a matter – can he or she do so and duly prepresent the guild and participate in such discussions?
Patroklus Murakami: michel, is your question about the interface between the New Guild and the RA?
Publius Crabgrass: the herder of cats?
Michel Manen: yes
Jon Seattle: (I should mention, lol, that I am not applying for that position.)
Michel Manen: (too bad Jon)
Jon Seattle: The spokesperson represents the guild
Jon Seattle: the chair of the faculty would offer technical advice only
Claude Desmoulins: And the secretary is accountable to/represents the admin board?
Jon Seattle: Exactly.
Jon Seattle: We went in the direction of making this as democratic as we could, while still wanting to recognize people’s skills and expertise
Michel Manen: i want to make sure the RA has a go-to person in the guild capable of speaking in its name without always answering “this is outside the purview of my mandate”
Jon Seattle: thus the devision
Jon Seattle: Yes, the secretary is that person. And would also, of course, consult with the faculty.
Michel Manen: ah. The secretary then
Michel Manen: Good. THank you. as long as that’s clear..
Jon Seattle: You are welcome
Claude Desmoulins: Other discussion?
Patroklus Murakami: no. i’m happy 🙂
Michel Manen: same
Publius Crabgrass: me too
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s vote then.
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of the new guild bill…..
Michel Manen: aye
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Justice Soothsayer: congrats Jon
Sudane Erato: yay!!!
Patroklus Murakami: ‘the Guild is dead! long live the Guild!’
Justice Soothsayer: long time coming, I know
Jon Seattle: Thanks. 🙂
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Last. Chancellor availability.
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah!
Sudane Erato: thank you!!
Jon Seattle: Yea! 🙂
Michel Manen: hmm
Justice Soothsayer: Ali said she’s free to meet on Tues & Thursday evenings
Justice Soothsayer: and would like to meet with as many RA members who can be present
Michel Manen: what slt time plz?
Justice Soothsayer: she’s in Eastern US, so that’s SLT plus 3.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we have an extraordinary meeting once a month? She wasn’t speciic
Claude Desmoulins: *specific
Michel Manen: yes ithink once a month is absolutely necessarry
Claude Desmoulins: I’d imagine something like 5-10 pm slt
Michel Manen: i can make it 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: as you know, if it goes on past 5pm I can’t make it (usually in bed by 4pm SL time)
Justice Soothsayer: not sure how long Tues-Thurs? will be her schedule
Justice Soothsayer: but March 20 or 22 are OK
Patroklus Murakami: but it’s more important that it happens than that everyone can make it
Michel Manen: well
Claude Desmoulins: I’m only available for sure later in the evening, say after 6:30 pm slt
Michel Manen: if we dont have at least 3 RA members present..
Claude Desmoulins: But not all of us have to be there.
Publius Crabgrass: i’m fairly flexible
Michel Manen: im fine with that time
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll drop ALiasi an IM asking for specific times for march 20 or 22.
Publius Crabgrass: those dates are fine with me
Claude Desmoulins: This may be the fastest meeting in RA history 🙂
Michel Manen: smiles
Sudane Erato: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Patroklus Murakami: do we have time for further discussion? or do u need to get away claude?
Michel Manen: i am still working on the Auditor General ACt
Publius Crabgrass: surely someone could propose something terribly controversial
Michel Manen: i hope to table it by Friday
Claude Desmoulins: Any other discussion on the chancellor meeting question?
Publius Crabgrass: are we meeting next Sunday?
Jon Seattle: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: I think so.
Michel Manen: why not?
Justice Soothsayer: not sure if i;ll be here sunday, may be out of town.
Patroklus Murakami: no, i meant on other topics. i think we need to discuss traffic, events, the Anzere hub i understand if you’d rather take that next week
Patroklus Murakami: i can make next week
Michel Manen: also, we need to discuss the LL fees for new features
Michel Manen: thats quite important
Patroklus Murakami: yes, good point michel
Claude Desmoulins: Rather than sit here and discuss, let’s bounce to forums and take in world time when there’s a specific proposal.
Sudane Erato: yes
Publius Crabgrass: very good point, we need some more info on that, Michel.
Michel Manen: well i think that should be quite high on the agenda
Claude Desmoulins: Sudane, what would the class 5 conversion cost us?
Michel Manen: its not just the class 5 conversion
Sudane Erato: we’ll not get more info on that until they make up their minds
Patroklus Murakami: well, i put three proposals out for discussion. i’ll repost them on the RA discussion forum
Michel Manen: its the 200 per month persim we would have to pay for new features
Michel Manen: sorry 100 US
Sudane Erato: up to now, this whole subject is just rumor
Sudane Erato: that is not at all definite
Claude Desmoulins: Rumor? I saw something intheofficial LL blog.
Michel Manen: well i dont think we can just wait until the rumors become fact
Sudane Erato: yes, LL floated the idea of residents paying for voice capability
Jon Seattle: I think that LL sometimes floats trial baloons.. so its not certain what they will do in the end..
Sudane Erato: thats as far as they went
Sudane Erato: exactly Jon
Michel Manen: this is a flying kyte than can be repeated every time there is a new feature
Sudane Erato: hehe
Michel Manen: we must take a stand now
Sudane Erato: perhaps
Michel Manen: i know other sims are
Sudane Erato: well…. you my
Sudane Erato: you may
Sudane Erato: but i don’t see it as so important
Michel Manen: do we have 2400 US per year extra for LL?
Publius Crabgrass: sounds like its better to wait until we see what LL actually does
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: and not get too excited about it in the meanwhile.
Claude Desmoulins: I think it’s less about principled stands and more about doing a cost benefit to see if a given new feature is worth what LL wants us to pay.
Sudane Erato: i agree Claude…
Sudane Erato: should that happen
Michel Manen: what about the nexttime there wil be new features and more money will be demanded?
Sudane Erato: we must see if that happens 🙂
Michel Manen: lol
Publius Crabgrass: its a marketplace issue, are those new features worth it
Sudane Erato: remember, LL has a worldwide economy at stake here
Claude Desmoulins: We decide if it’s worth it or not on a feature by feature basis.
Michel Manen: i think we should decide on what our position would be if this happens
Sudane Erato: not just principled stands of landowners
Michel Manen: not just waituntil we re faced with a fait accompli
Publius Crabgrass: for me, much would depend on what is offered, and how it would position us in the overall marketplace. If we are the home of silent movies in a fully-voice world, it would raise some issues.
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: do we get free voice for CN but have to pay for NFS?
Sudane Erato: no, the two sims are in the same catagory
Michel Manen: its a bit like global warming.. no point in waiting until the oceans rise by 5 meters .. 🙂 smiles
Sudane Erato: hehe
Patroklus Murakami: oh, did we get CN before the price went up?
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: k:)
Jon Seattle: I suppose that it is inevitable, but voice also may change our society in some ways.
Michel Manen: indeed
Sudane Erato: yes!
Patroklus Murakami: it’ll make meetings quicker 🙂
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: brb
Michel Manen: my concern is not just about voice… it is about modus operandi… we just cannot allow extra fees to be leviedfor each future new feature
Claude Desmoulins: Could we adjourn the official meeting and discuss informally?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Sudane Erato: but Michel, we have no authority over that
Michel Manen: we could if we chose to with other like minded sims
Sudane Erato: *shrug*
Justice Soothsayer: i think we’ll need to wait for a bit more information before deciding when and where to take a principled stand.
Patroklus Murakami: well, i think i’d like to see what’s actually being proposed before deciding whether to ‘take a stand’ agains the LInden’s gouging us
Michel Manen: its not against any one Pat – its a quwstiono in engaging in discussions to decide how 2L will develop in the future
Sudane Erato: forgive me… I must go
Justice Soothsayer: bye Sudane
Michel Manen: bye bye for now sudane
Sudane Erato: bye now 🙂
Jon Seattle: Bye sudane and thanks! 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: so, is your issue the implementation of voice? or of the lindens adding new features then asking us to pay to upgrade?
Publius Crabgrass: cya Sudane
TOPGenosse Brouwer: bye!
Patroklus Murakami: bye sudane 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Any objection to adjournment?
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Michel Manen: one is a specific example of the other
Patroklus Murakami: no objection claude
Justice Soothsayer: no
Publius Crabgrass: none
Michel Manen: no
Claude Desmoulins: We’re adjourned. Feel free to keep discussing 🙂
The meeting closed at 12:57 Linden time.RA Meeting: March 18, 2007
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (198, 184, 178)
Those present:
Publius Crabgrass is in the chair.
Publius Crabgrass: now we’ve lost Claude
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass: Justice, congrats to you and Beathan for being in the ABA journal. That was a nice surprise.
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks
Justice Soothsayer: I thought CDS came off quite well, even if they did refer to us as Neufreistadt
Publius Crabgrass: hmm, wonder what happened to Claude
Michel Manen: HEllo all
Publius Crabgrass: wd
Publius Crabgrass: wb, tht is
Publius Crabgrass: hi Michel
Justice Soothsayer: hello, Michel
Claude Desmoulins: Seem to be having crashing problems
Michel Manen: Hi Publisu – Justice 🙂
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: Ah. We seem to have a quorum today. 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, just so you know, I’m going to have trouble attending the April 1 and April 8 meeting dates.
Publius Crabgrass: 8 April is Easter, that one will be problematic for me as well.
Claude Desmoulins: I figured we’d avoid the 8th, Easter and all.
Justice Soothsayer: and April Fools Day? hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s begin
Claude Desmoulins: First, are there any reports?
Michel Manen: Hello Sudane
Publius Crabgrass: hi Sudane.
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
Sudane Erato: I can report
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass: Excellent treasurer’s report on the forum!
Sudane Erato: yes… just to refer to that
Sudane Erato: and that we will pay back 100% of our loan
Justice Soothsayer: hear, hear! Nice to see us so solid.
Sudane Erato: which we incurred last October
Sudane Erato: yes!
Sudane Erato: it is very nice to see this
Justice Soothsayer: Sudane, do you get traffic reports?
Sudane Erato: traffic?… no
Sudane Erato: from what source?
Justice Soothsayer: from LL?
Sudane Erato: hmm…
Sudane Erato: i’ve never really looked
Justice Soothsayer: when they used to give traffic bonuses, I think we had a way of knowing how many visitors we’ve had.
Sudane Erato: ahhhh
Sudane Erato: i think perhaps thats by parcel
Sudane Erato: i’m not sure where to look for that
Sudane Erato: but yes, it must still exist
Sudane Erato: because it is shown in the “Places” Search
Justice Soothsayer: OK, just thought it might be interesting to know how much we are visited, esp in the public areas.
Sudane Erato: yes!
Sudane Erato: I agree
Claude Desmoulins: Anything else , Sudane?
Sudane Erato: thats it for me… I was pleased to finally get it done for Feb!
Sudane Erato: sorry for the delay
Sudane Erato: oh
Sudane Erato: also
Sudane Erato: it has been pointed out
Sudane Erato: an error that I jave made
Sudane Erato: in implementing the land sales rules
Sudane Erato: the RA
Sudane Erato: may wish to look into this… relating to the Group Ownership procedures
Sudane Erato: but just want to announce this… no need to deal with it now
Publius Crabgrass: what error?
Sudane Erato: i have omitted to attend to a clause which states that people shall own land FIRST as individuals, before owning as member of a group
Sudane Erato: there are significant problems with that
Sudane Erato: but the truth is
Sudane Erato: that i have simply and inadvertantly overlooked that requirement
Sudane Erato: and it must be known
Sudane Erato: I have made a post in the forum regarding this
Pixieplumb Flanagan: excuse me
Pixieplumb Flanagan: is this the church meeting
Sudane Erato: no… not here
Pixieplumb Flanagan: sorry
Claude Desmoulins: Ah.
Pixieplumb Flanagan: forgive me for intruding
Sudane Erato: its usually fore like 3 or 4 PM SLT
Sudane Erato: in the church
Claude Desmoulins has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pixieplumb Flanagan: oh, I’m in england you see
Justice Soothsayer: hi Pel
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi all!
Claude Desmoulins: Publius,
Sudane Erato: hi Pel 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Do you have a code revision report?
Michel Manen: Hi Pel 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: just to say that I did get one response to my draft compilation, and I’m sharing it with the other volunteers. Its a slow process, I’m afraid.
Pelanor Eldrich: Very briefly I posted to the forums as you’ve seen and I haven’t yet heard from Publius about whether he approves of my approach.
Pelanor Eldrich: I’ll take a copy Pub, if that’s ok…
Pelanor Eldrich: 😉
Publius Crabgrass: sure
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: thx Claude
Claude Desmoulins: Next item.
Claude Desmoulins: Chancellor meetings
Michel Manen: I spoke to Aliasi about this
Claude Desmoulins: Aliasi is available after 5pm SLT either Tuesday the 20th or Thursday the 22nd.
Michel Manen: she would be able to meet with us wednsdays anytime from 10 am to 10 pm slt
Michel Manen: lol
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: What are our collective preferences?
Justice Soothsayer: I’m unavailable on the 22nd
Justice Soothsayer: but the 20th is fine
Publius Crabgrass: 20th is OK for me, but I could also do after 4pm SLT on the 22nd
Michel Manen: im fine whenver most of us can make it
Claude Desmoulins: 20th is only workable late (say after 6 or 7)
Justice Soothsayer: thats OK with me
Michel Manen: fine
Justice Soothsayer: 6 or 7 is fine
Claude Desmoulins: Pat is probably precluded by time anyway.
Publius Crabgrass: OK
Claude Desmoulins: Shall we say 7 pm on the 20th then?
Michel Manen: fine
Claude Desmoulins: Last item, Beathan’s bill. Since he hasn’t submitted on notecard we can’t vote on it.
Claude Desmoulins: brb
Michel Manen: indeed
Pelanor Eldrich: How does the proposal fit with 5-20 the Arbitration Act?
Claude Desmoulins: It seems to extend it by making arbitration the default and creating a formal mechanism.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, ok so litigation via binding SC is not the default. Interesting.
Michel Manen: Well i dont believe that is at all wise. We must rething our justice system from the ground up and introduce coherent legislation to htat effect.
Claude Desmoulins: I also wonder about compelling people to arbitrate.
Michel Manen: thats a contradiction i nterms
Justice Soothsayer: where we sit right now, i think, is that the SC is charged with providing dispute resolution, which could include reference to arbitration with consent of the parties
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe not compelling, but close to it.
Claude Desmoulins: If I read the proposal correctly. I’ve only glanced at it.
Michel Manen: well the SC is simply not the appropriate forum to resolve all our disputes, not can arbitration be compelled. As i sasid, we must all work togther to devise a workable ,stable and fair judicial system. That would also allow, of ocurse for voluntary arbitration.
Pelanor Eldrich: Same here, a question I had, and it’s the same as 5-20, is that if you don’t put in a clause about arbitration being binding in any agreement all losers will automatically appeal to the SC.
Claude Desmoulins: Notice Section 3 of Beathan’s proposal.
Pelanor Eldrich: 5-20 says arbitration cannot use sanctions at the sole discretion of the SC, which I take to mean banning and CDS land forfeiture.
Michel Manen: Beathan’s proposal is not at issue as it has not been properly submitted.
Pelanor Eldrich: True
Claude Desmoulins: I thought 5-20 allows parties to agree on binding arbitration.
Justice Soothsayer reading wiki
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes it does, Claude, but some sanctions cannot be applied. I asked Justice about that yesterday.
Michel Manen: Pel did a great job tying to map out our insitutional structure. It is that kind of coherent appproach we must take here, not patchwork acts that don’t make snese when put together.
Claude Desmoulins: Isn’t banning and/or land forfeiture a matter of a dispute between the CDS and a citizen rather than a citizen-citizen dispute?
Pelanor Eldrich: BTW that’s all getting reworked. The AC is gone. BTW I’d like to propose formally thanking Sudane for her work as GM and to formally appreciate her continued worked as EO and Treasurer.
Justice Soothsayer: yes, banning and land forfeiture can’t be remedies in arbitration.
Michel Manen: of course not.
Pelanor Eldrich: A citizen vs. citizens dispute could result in banning or land forfeiture. Why not?
Pelanor Eldrich: It would be tried by the SC though.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (good evening 🙂 )
Pelanor Eldrich: hiya
Michel Manen: THat is not the SC’s role.
Sudane Erato: hi TOP 🙂
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hi all 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Forefeiture is diferent from an asset transfer.
Publius Crabgrass: Forefeiture could include loss of citizenship
Pelanor Eldrich: I loan Claude $4000USD in $L with a note and don’t get paid and he laughs at me. We have a Nota Bene agreement and digitally signed reciepts. He tells me to go f myself. What does the SC do? Ban him or at least take his land and give it to me. no?
Claude Desmoulins: BTW, how long do we want to spend on this since there’s not yet a bill in the hopper.
TOPGenosse Brouwer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: *part
Justice Soothsayer: critics of Beathan’s bill should go at it on the forum, then we can get a bill in proper form for debate.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ok. No ban?
Michel Manen: Well i think we shoud decide what apporach we should take to the entire judiciary / arbitration matter.
Pelanor Eldrich: Good point Claude.
Pelanor Eldrich: Makes sense.
Michel Manen: I truly believe that only if we all collaborate on this we will acheive results- not just wait for individuals bils to be tabled.
Pelanor Eldrich: We could do the forum thing. Let’s just try to hammer it out better than last session.
Publius Crabgrass: quite, Pelanor.
Claude Desmoulins: And here comes Pat.
Michel Manen: Ah
Michel Manen: Pel you are at the cross roads of our political , business and legal worlds.. what thoughts do you have on how we should structure our approach to the arbitration-judiciary issue?
Michel Manen: since you are here today i wantto take advantage of your experience . smiles
Michel Manen: hi pat
Sudane Erato: hi Pat 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: Lucipher Baphomet would prefer…queue Startrek music…………..Trial by Combat!
Patroklus Murakami: hi, sorry i’m late
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hi pat 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: hi Pat
Patroklus Murakami: the two weeks the US is on different daylight savings has thown me 🙁
Michel Manen: Ah. I was just reading this morning about ht e Ccid Campeador fighting the Moors… myabe we need one 🙂
TOPGenosse Brouwer: so .. no one speaking/typing?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: may I bring something small to the table then?
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Pat, an aside… do you have a document version of the regional plan yet?
Claude Desmoulins: Also, please don’t forget to touch the recorder, everyone.
Patroklus Murakami: not yet claude, no. i suggest cut and pasting the forum post to teh wiki in the meantime. the complication is the images, i don’t know how you would reference those in a wiki entry
Pelanor Eldrich: Go ahead TOP.
Publius Crabgrass: i think we could load them as a pdf document, Pat
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (You can also upload them on the wiki .. quite easy)
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry, TOP.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: OK, thank you.
Patroklus Murakami: could someone more technically literate volunteer to do that then? if u wait for me it might be a while before it gets done!
Pelanor Eldrich: We also need to lock down the AC forums.
TOPGenosse Brouwer nods
Pelanor Eldrich: *forum
Pelanor Eldrich: BTW I agree.
Claude Desmoulins: Diderot has taken over PIO, maybe he would be the person to start with.
Justice Soothsayer: Good idea
Patroklus Murakami: good suggestions TOP, we need clear communications.should this be a PIO responsibility? claude beat me to it
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I think PIO is more to the outside, isn’t it?
Claude Desmoulins: What is the CDS is certainly forthe outside.
Publius Crabgrass: BTW, kudos for Justice & Beathan being quoted in the American Bar Association journal about Neufreistadt!
TOPGenosse Brouwer: If two people here can write about Judiciary & “what is the CDS”, then I’m sure Jon can write about the Guild and it’s implications.
Patroklus Murakami: the judiciary text could be controversial….
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Yes, that’s why you need someone who sees both sides of the issue
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (=dpu?)
Patroklus Murakami: a schizophrenic?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think, just personally, that the forums should be moved to slcds.info because they’re national, not NFS related. We could have forums devoted to local NFS and CN issues. The JA repeal and the AC abolishment should be headline items. The wiki should also get moved to slcds.info and a RA archivist get the codes and transcripts up to date. The SC archivist should keep the consitution as ameneded and the SC transcripts up to date.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hahah
Michel Manen: i tthink that is counterproductive. we shouls concentrate instead of devising a workable system.
Claude Desmoulins: What about Redaktisto? He works for SLNN.
Michel Manen: lol
TOPGenosse Brouwer: So no volunteers about writing the three paragraphs?? I wonder who understands it besides the people in this room!!
Patroklus Murakami: i think that whoever writes it, it should be agreed to by a range of people with different views. it’s difficult to be objective about the JA situation
Justice Soothsayer: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: Or we could try to twist Gwyns’ arm.
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, it’s fairly political. Maybe Gwyn.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: There’s always Ash himself 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: I do see the point of getting someone to write up Judiciary changes who doesn’t have an “iron in the fire”
Michel Manen: i dont think this is something the RA should be involved in
Patroklus Murakami: no need to rub salt in ash’s wounds TOP
Michel Manen: were herevto pass laws not summarize history
Claude Desmoulins: I’d agree with Michel here.
Justice Soothsayer: who wrote the voter’s guide?
Justice Soothsayer: that might be an objective way to go.
Michel Manen: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Fernando
Sudane Erato: that was Fernando
Michel Manen: but again this is outside our purview
Patroklus Murakami: we’re also here to make things happen michel. who do u think should write these pieces for the site and make these things happen?
Michel Manen: are you asking me as a private citizen or as an RA member?
Claude Desmoulins: So TOP, why don’t you mention it to Diderot and Fernando and see what they can come up with.
Pelanor Eldrich: Fernando, Salzie, Gwyn…all pretty apolitical.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Michel > So if citizens wonder what the hell is going on, no one will giv ethem the short version?? And they’ll just have to read the whole 100 page forum? I think that’s bad towards the citizens
Patroklus Murakami: would the answer be different?
Justice Soothsayer: i[‘m not so sure its outside our purview, Michel; I think the RA has an obligation to explain to the citizens that we’ve made some fundamental changes to our govt of late.
Michel Manen: of course
Patroklus Murakami: let’s have both then 🙂
Michel Manen: as an RA member i have no opinion ecause its not in our purview
TOPGenosse Brouwer Fully agrees with Justice!
Pelanor Eldrich: The other thing we lack without Reakisto and The Democrat is some kind of CDS free press to publicize all this stuff.
Michel Manen: as a private citizen i think that if a non-political organisation wishes to summarise historical events of the past year and publish them on a non CDS officla page that ‘s up to them
Publius Crabgrass: I agree too; we need a newly revised guide to our governmental institutions, and I think its fair that the RA ask someone (our PIO, maybe?) to do so.
Michel Manen: and th official CDS pages could lik to it
Claude Desmoulins: Or refer to the Chancellor. The civil service act was I thought to create an apparatus for getting things done without the RA having to DIY everything.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Citizens need to know big changes …. if no ones writes it down in a short version .. that’s very untransparent
Patroklus Murakami agrees with claude on that
Claude Desmoulins: Five minutes folks.
Michel Manen: well…. we can state facts
Pelanor Eldrich: I agree TOP.
Patroklus Murakami: and it *is* our responsiblity to ensure that the RAs actions are communicated
Michel Manen: Ja passed on such a date, debate took place, commisison held, JA abolished
Pelanor Eldrich: The AC is gone and replaced by the Guild. The JA has been repealed, cases will be heard by the SC or by arbitration.
Michel Manen: that is fine
TOPGenosse Brouwer agrees with Pat.
Pelanor Eldrich: *New Guild NGO
Claude Desmoulins: True. Is there any objection to asking Diderot what he can come up with?
Michel Manen: that is an entirely differnt matter as to writing on the substantive issues
Patroklus Murakami: nope. that sounds like a sensible way forward claude
TOPGenosse Brouwer: yes, Diderot has not been around for many weeks
Michel Manen: well.. what exactly are we asking him to do please?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: a summary
TOPGenosse Brouwer: not an opinion
Michel Manen: dates and facts?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: so why don’tyou write a summary if you know it better than Diderot : is that too much to ask?
Publius Crabgrass: summarise recent changes to the structure of our government.
Pelanor Eldrich: I can dumb down my charts and do a before and after.
Michel Manen: ah fine. that is fine i think
Claude Desmoulins: Yes. Dates, facts. What institutions are now handling the responsibilities of the eliminated entities.
Michel Manen: publius you ve done a lot of work on this
TOPGenosse Brouwer: exactly
Publius Crabgrass: i can take a stab at it. Of course, it will be a “simple” version.
Claude Desmoulins: We’ve run out of time.
Michel Manen: exctly waht is required
Claude Desmoulins: Same time next week in the Praetorium?
Michel Manen: ok
Michel Manen: aye
Patroklus Murakami: yes, and i’ll set my alarm!
Justice Soothsayer: ok
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Publius > that’s great 🙂
Michel Manen: and 20th at 7 with hte chancellor
Claude Desmoulins: Yes Chancellor meeting here, svp.
Michel Manen: thank you
Claude Desmoulins: And we are adjourned.
The meeting closed at 12:58 Linden time.RA Meeting: March 20, 2007
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 185, 178)
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass: aha, here’s Claude no9w
Justice Soothsayer: hi Claude, I just started the notetaker
Claude Desmoulins: Thanks
Aliasi Stonebender: okay, shall we begin?
Justice Soothsayer: so Ali, what do you have to report?
Publius Crabgrass: yes, how goes the Chancellor gig?
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay. Firstly, while this is something I’ve discussed with Sudane and have not yet officially announced, we intend to make TOPGenosse a caretaker, same as Antonius. Sudane says the budget is good for it, and it’s essentially what he does already.
Michel Manen: good evenign everyone
Publius Crabgrass: hi Michel
Michel Manen: hi nikki
Nikki Maertens: Hi
Claude Desmoulins has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: have a seat plz
Claude Desmoulins: Please remember to touch the recorder.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Nikki Maertens: Thank you
Aliasi Stonebender has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: thank you for meetign with us Aliasi
Justice Soothsayer: good news about caretakers, they’ve been good at cleaning up leftover prims
Aliasi Stonebender: Secondly, there’s been some delay on my project to make a center-square teleporter/directory, although it will still be done. Just somewhat low priority on my coding/scripting projects ATM, due to RL issues.
Michel Manen: i guess pat wont be able to make it today 🙂
Michel Manen: well as long as thats in the works that’s fine 🙂
Aliasi Stonebender: alright. let’s see… Gwyn has taken care of the infamous spinning “for sale” signs. I’m under the impression Carolyn did not respond, so I imagine she was forced to make a summary judgement, essentially, given it was such an obvious violation.
Michel Manen: was there an actual SC meeting?
Michel Manen: hello rose and J aliasi is just updating us on the Carlolyn situation
Jeremy Utarid: hello
Rose Springvale: ah, hello
Publius Crabgrass: wow, the whole partnership of Utarid & Springvale!
Aliasi Stonebender: Gwyn was scheduling one.
Rose Springvale: yes.
Publius Crabgrass: welcome
Rose Springvale: thanks
Aliasi Stonebender: However, like I said… it’s one of those obvious cases. I referred it to the SC in order to set precedent, not because there was any reasonable doubt.
Jeremy Utarid: rose, we don;t sit on tables:)
Michel Manen: yes i understand; what exactly will happen to her land since it seems as you say that she doesnt respond?
Michel Manen: j androse click on the recorder plz
Aliasi Stonebender: If she doesn’t pay her land fee, the same that happens to any other abandoned plot, I imagine.,
Michel Manen: th4 black box
Rose Springvale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jeremy Utarid has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: i see. thank you
Michel Manen: and if she tries to set the signs back? what is our procedure thre?
Aliasi Stonebender: File a case with the SC again. We *do* need an official policy regarding sentencing, I think, but that is not my area.
Aliasi Stonebender: The cops don’t sentence you, they only take you to the judge to BE sentenced.
Michel Manen: yes we do indeed – we have no justice system at the momnet.. 🙂
Aliasi Stonebender: and the guidelines FOR the sentencing is usually done by the legislature.
Justice Soothsayer: not true, michel, we have the SC
Aliasi Stonebender: which is to say, you guys.
Michel Manen: indeed
Jeremy Utarid: pardon me, but why are talking of sentencing… ais this being criminalized?
Rose Springvale: but sentencing applyes to criminal
Rose Springvale: lol
Rose Springvale: ‘yes go ahead J
Rose Springvale: this is civil
Jeremy Utarid: this a classic abatment of a nuisance
Michel Manen: well here we dont have a separatio between criminal and civil
Aliasi Stonebender: It’s a violation of the covenant, it’s kind of a ‘criminal’ act by definition, Jeremy.
Jeremy Utarid: or violation of an contract;; covenant
Rose Springvale: no, it’s clearly civil’
Aliasi Stonebender: No.
Aliasi Stonebender: It’s clearly civil if we were persuing this in a real world court of law.
Jeremy Utarid: thre is no crime unless there is a criminatl statute
Jeremy Utarid: the remedy is civial in nature
Rose Springvale: but since we are dealing with an online contractual issu
Justice Soothsayer: quite right, J & R
Rose Springvale: and a breach has clearly occured
Rose Springvale: the idea of sentencing is inappropriate
Rose Springvale: forfeiture is
Aliasi Stonebender: *shrugs* it’s as logical to talk of the CDS as a non-profit co-operative dealing with server resources as it is to call it a micronation.
Rose Springvale: no
Rose Springvale: actually
Aliasi Stonebender: So I don’t really see where we need to care what it “ought” to be, except insofar as the laws passed by the RA demand.
Rose Springvale: because jus as we have a right to depend on the enforcement of the covenants when we buy, we have a responsibility to abide by them as we would ANY real world contract
Jeremy Utarid: i agree
Rose Springvale: i’m sorry, is there a way to turn off the fog
Jeremy Utarid: in fact. every indidual in a coveant violatin has a cause of action
Justice Soothsayer: ctrl-alt-shift-minus sign, Rose
Rose Springvale: thank you
Aliasi Stonebender: Ctrl-Alt-Shift-minus?
Michel Manen: lol
Rose Springvale: the thing is
Rose Springvale: because we all bought subject to the covenants, not enforcing them in effect nullifies them
Rose Springvale: once we dont’ apply the law, we lose the right to next time
Jeremy Utarid: it is called a novation and I agree with Rose
Justice Soothsayer: I think Ali was reporting that the covenants are in fact being enforced, right Ali?
Rose Springvale: okay
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes.
Aliasi Stonebender: That is, in fact, the point.
Claude Desmoulins: Aliasi, I had the impression that you were operating on kind of complaint system, is that a fair characterization?
Claude Desmoulins: ie…
Aliasi Stonebender: It has been my policy to first try to correct things informally, since many times the covenant violation is not intentional.
Aliasi Stonebender: It has, as opposed to seeking out violations.
Claude Desmoulins: Wait for someone to raise an issue as opposed to going around the sims looking for violations…oops.
Claude Desmoulins: Is there anything fundamentally wrong with that approach?
Rose Springvale: well
Michel Manen: i understadn thereasons why; btu also this puts a certain burden in citizens to complain doesnt it?
Rose Springvale: i see a couple of problems
Rose Springvale: one, we publish the covenants
Aliasi Stonebender: This does not mean I *cannot* independently get violations, as I often do when random visitors leave prims strewn about.
Aliasi Stonebender: However, again… the police do not skulk in dark alleyways, waiting for people to get mugged. If a violation is there, and obvious, sure.
Michel Manen: in tbtu as you said this one was obvious no?
Aliasi Stonebender: So, perhaps one can fault my handling of the ‘for sale’ signs.
Michel Manen: and it took about a month to be resolved 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: tbtu?
Michel Manen: but orry
Claude Desmoulins nods
Aliasi Stonebender: but again, I was going in conjunction with my stated policy of trying informal, polite reminders, first.
Rose Springvale: hmm
Jeremy Utarid: thre is nothing wrong with an informal approach… until it proves not to work
Michel Manen: I fully understand that.. however we should se certain timlines.. a month is quite a long time by SL standards i think…
Claude Desmoulins: Has it proven not to work, or merely to work slowly?
Jeremy Utarid: if the violation is deemed significant and informality does not work then sterner civil action is approproiarte
Rose Springvale: i’m sure the other issue is on the agenda
Aliasi Stonebender shrugs.
Rose Springvale: but it doesn’t seem to be even handedly applied
Rose Springvale: adn frankly
Aliasi Stonebender: If you don’t like the way I handle things, you know where the withdrawal vote is.
Claude Desmoulins: Rose, do you have specific examples?
Rose Springvale: that sign was clearly obvious, and having read the forum, vindictive
Michel Manen: well i think the CDS as a wole does not have appropriate guidelines for such situations
Rose Springvale: dave attenbourough
Aliasi Stonebender: What of him?
Rose Springvale: is the situation i’m most concerned with
Rose Springvale: well
Rose Springvale: my understanding is that his sculpture was deleted from our joint property
Rose Springvale: without notice
Rose Springvale: in less than a weeks time
Rose Springvale: yet the sign
Rose Springvale: specifically enumerated
Rose Springvale: in our covenants
Rose Springvale: stayed over a month
Rose Springvale: even though Carolyn made clear she was doing it to be a pain
Aliasi Stonebender: I do not make a habit of checking the script time tool on a daily basis, Rose.
Rose Springvale: Dave is a citizen, or was at the time
Rose Springvale: i have no idea what that means aliasi
Aliasi Stonebender: and I do believe I have the right to take immediate action if the object is endangering the sim.
Rose Springvale: i just know that none of us were even advised there was a problem
Aliasi Stonebender: and a scripted object that takes FIVE MILLISECONDS
Rose Springvale: it was up for three weeks i believe
Aliasi Stonebender: of script time damn well violates the covenant.
Claude Desmoulins: What do you mean danger to the sim?
Rose Springvale: and he’s had no issues in the thre other sims it’s in
Rose Springvale: yes, please elaborate
Rose Springvale: and be that as it may
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay, I’d like to direct everyone to the Ctrl-Shift-1? menu
Rose Springvale: notice, would be appropriate
Rose Springvale: and threatening expulsion?
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry, thus is news to me, please bear with my ignorance.
Claude Desmoulins: *this
Michel Manen: ok the menu?
Aliasi Stonebender: You see the list of statistics?
Michel Manen: yes
Aliasi Stonebender: if you click on the “Time (ms)”, it will expand out.
Rose Springvale: wait
Rose Springvale: wait
Rose Springvale: that isn’t the point
Rose Springvale: even if it was in violation
Aliasi Stonebender: It very much IS the point.
Rose Springvale: a quick im
Rose Springvale: to me or dave or michel
Aliasi Stonebender: That sculpture is a lag magnet.
Rose Springvale: would have solved the issue
Rose Springvale: it was not an intentional violation
Rose Springvale: and dave was singled out
Rose Springvale: and as a person paying a huge amount for my property every month
Aliasi Stonebender: Because that’s the only object in the sim that was taking up a third of our processing power.
Rose Springvale: how can that be?
Rose Springvale: how could it be there for so long then?
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay, Rose, estate managers have access to a tool to see the total script time used by all objects in the sim.
Rose Springvale: and given the lack of activithy in the sim
Rose Springvale: that’s great
Aliasi Stonebender: And that is, in fact, how it was unnoticed for so long.
Rose Springvale: so when there is an issue
Rose Springvale: if it was unnoticed that long
Aliasi Stonebender: if the sim only has one or two people, the heavy load does not show itself.
Rose Springvale: would a couple of hours to treat it in a respectful manner have been an issue?
Rose Springvale: that is my point
Rose Springvale: we have a person who is a great asset to our sim
Rose Springvale: a person who does things
Rose Springvale: and he was threatened with expulsion
Rose Springvale: based on MY advice
Rose Springvale: i wasn’t even given the courtesy of an im
Rose Springvale: that is my point
Jeremy Utarid: you spoke the significant word Rose… coutesy
Michel Manen: i understand what you mean Aliasi .. but from a legal point of view, the procedures in both carolyns and Daves cases should follow certain similar procedures no?
Aliasi Stonebender: Michel, if someone was to rez a gray-goo object in the sim, I would not wait politely to delete it.
Aliasi Stonebender: Citizen or no.
Rose Springvale: this wars on the site THREE weeksz
Rose Springvale: without comment
Rose Springvale: we had the art curators there
Rose Springvale: reviewing it for the museum
Michel Manen: indeed
Rose Springvale: no one knew it was an issue
Aliasi Stonebender: And, during those three weeks, I was on at my customary time – which is near midnight, US time.
Rose Springvale: i assure you, one word, and we’d have taken it down immediately
Rose Springvale: and dave would still be working in his studio
Rose Springvale: i’m often on at midnight sltime
Rose Springvale: michel is always on then
Rose Springvale: and ims’ go to my email
Claude Desmoulins: I wasn’t privy to any ofthe actual communications in question. Am I right, Aliasi, that you understood the sculpture to be a more significant threat to the sim because of its script usage?
Michel Manen: my main concern here is consistency of procedures, not singling out any one action
Rose Springvale: i am also concerne with the threat of expulsion of a citizen without the opportunity for review
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, Claude.
Claude Desmoulins: I’m getting a sense that the breakdown here was perhaps more one of communication or lack thereof.
Rose Springvale: lol
Rose Springvale: okay
Claude Desmoulins: That does have a procedure.
Michel Manen: well rose we no longer have justice system
Aliasi Stonebender: Also, I was not aware Dave *was* a citizen.
Rose Springvale: i asked about the sing a week before it was deleted
Rose Springvale: dave is
Claude Desmoulins: We have the SC.
Michel Manen: wxcuse me? you didnt know dave was a citizen?
Claude Desmoulins: Estate managers have ban powers, must publish any bans they issue and said bans are subject to SC review,
Justice Soothsayer: yes, michel, please stop saying we don’t have a justice system, we have the SC.
Rose Springvale: okay
Michel Manen: that is not a jusrice sysastem
Claude Desmoulins: Can anyone show me an accurate list?
Rose Springvale: so why did dave feel that he had no choie but leave
Michel Manen: the SC never meets
Rose Springvale: without sc review?
Michel Manen: it didnt meet in carolyns case
Rose Springvale: okay
Rose Springvale: i’ve made my point, you all can debate the systems if you want.
Justice Soothsayer: Ali, can’t someone agrieved by something you’ve done complain about it to the SC for review?
Aliasi Stonebender: That is the problem.
Rose Springvale: but anytime someone can be a citzen and be threatened becaues he disagrees with a policy…
Claude Desmoulins: If you want to know why the SC does or doesn’t meet. you could ask them.
Rose Springvale: well
Aliasi Stonebender: He is not listed in the listy of land owners, and I am not aware of him ever having an individual parcel to meet with the group-ownership status.
Rose Springvale: we are really reaching by includingt the word democratic in our name
Michel Manen: well that still means we do not have a functioning justice system claude
Rose Springvale: do yo not have a list of group members?
Jeremy Utarid: I am confused… if there is a site manager who possesess botht he authority and the techhnical power to take action and exercises the power regualarly, why the pretense that there is a government in control of things?
Michel Manen: and no rule of law
Rose Springvale: dave wast the purchasing partner of CIH
Claude Desmoulins: Will creating more structure solve that?
Claude Desmoulins: OK
Claude Desmoulins: Rose.
Rose Springvale: yes?
Aliasi Stonebender: There is a list of group members, rose, but the SL list is not authorative.
Michel Manen: dave was here for over 3 weeks
Aliasi Stonebender: there are several people in my own land-owning group (for the technical ease of announcements, setting it as a home point) who are not citizens.
Rose Springvale: no .. the ScULPTURE was
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s all acknowledge that Dave’s departure wasn’t what anyone wanted.
Michel Manen: sudane knew abut it
Michel Manen: well we must make sure this neever happens again
Rose Springvale: again, an issue that could have been addressed with mere notice
Rose Springvale: i want to bring dave back
Claude Desmoulins: How do we fix the situation that allowed things to slip between the cracks?
Rose Springvale: well
Aliasi Stonebender: Rose, I do find your “but it was there for THREE WEEKS!” comment a bit puzzling, though
Rose Springvale: some things seem self evited
Rose Springvale: evident
Michel Manen: we have proper rexords, procedures and a funcrioning justice system
Aliasi Stonebender: If I am doing some illegal action, and I am not found out about for three weeks, it does not become less illegal.
Rose Springvale: you may ask Top… he and Delia wer there the night he rezzed the structure at my request
Rose Springvale: but the point is aliasi
Aliasi Stonebender: if the action is one directly harmful to the technical health of the sim, that too does not seem to matter.
Rose Springvale: we didn’t know
Michel Manen: i meant that since sudane knew from day one dave wasa citizen 3 weeks hould be enough for the Chancellor to know it too
Rose Springvale: there is no way i’m going to become a computer wiz kid
Aliasi Stonebender: Rose, I assure you, anyone who WAS a scripter would know right away.
Rose Springvale: so if something on my property is illegal
Aliasi Stonebender: As Dave was the creator of the sculpture, I am presuming he would.
Rose Springvale: a quick note will take care of it
Rose Springvale: he didn’t know it was illegal
Rose Springvale: and he is an artist
Rose Springvale: so?
Rose Springvale: he is also very sensitive
Claude Desmoulins: Problem one here was that Aliasi didn’t know Dave was a citizen.
Michel Manen: indeed
Rose Springvale: agreed
Rose Springvale: adn
Michel Manen: after 3 weeks
Rose Springvale: that no notice was given
Rose Springvale: and
Claude Desmoulins: Had she known that, I imagine a situation comparable to Carolyn’s would have ensued.
Rose Springvale: that expulsion is not an appropriate threat
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes.
Rose Springvale: well
Rose Springvale: lol
Rose Springvale: that isnt’ consisten with what’s been said here
Rose Springvale: if the scupture was so dangersous
Rose Springvale: would it have been given such deference?
Rose Springvale: and
Rose Springvale: it is clear that carolyn’s point was antagonism
Rose Springvale: daves was art
Claude Desmoulins: The EO is reponsible for publishing the list of citizens per NL 5-15.
Rose Springvale: EO?
Justice Soothsayer: Estate Owner
Aliasi Stonebender: Estate Owner.
Rose Springvale: thank you
Aliasi Stonebender: However, the list on neufreistadt.info is badly out of date
Rose Springvale: all the more reason to give the benefit of the doubt to the citizens
Aliasi Stonebender: So I’ve been left to trying to piece it from the land record and the last eligible voter’s list.
Rose Springvale: so again, a lack of communication
Rose Springvale: this time between the eo and the chancellor
Rose Springvale: may i suggest
Rose Springvale: that other sims use a group chat for issues
Rose Springvale: and such would be easy to institute in CDS
Rose Springvale: and then the issue would have been a momentary thing
Rose Springvale: instead of a series of policies, procedures and hearings
Claude Desmoulins: We have a group if the citizens would join it.
Aliasi Stonebender: This is all a very fine and sound idea.
Aliasi Stonebender: Although there’s another problem behind that as well.
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: i still havent been invited to join the CDS citizens group Claude
Aliasi Stonebender: Neither I nor Sudane are paid, or receive any compensation. I’m Chancellor largely because nobody cares enough to run.
Aliasi Stonebender: Any work we do for the CDS must be fit around the edges.
Aliasi Stonebender: Quite frankly, if the RA voted to remove me next meeting, my response would be something like “meh”.
Rose Springvale: okay, i’m going to excuse myself
Aliasi Stonebender: You get the quality you pay for, kiddies.
Rose Springvale: obviously this issue is not connected
Rose Springvale: thank you
Pelanor Eldrich: ?!?
Michel Manen: aliasi this is not a personal matter; it is a question of how we manage our community and coduct ourselves as officials
Nikki Maertens: Bye Rose.
Justice Soothsayer: not sure what “meh” means, but I think I have the gist
Pelanor Eldrich: can someone bring me up to date?
Aliasi Stonebender: I’m saying that at the time, I thought I was returning a badly-written, sim-instabilizing objects
Michel Manen: at present we have no rule of law, no procedures, no up to date frecords
Jeremy Utarid: thank you all:)
Aliasi Stonebender: and I’m getting bitched at for walking all over the ego of a sensitive artiste
Michel Manen: i find that deply trubling
Michel Manen: and so do many other citiznes
Aliasi Stonebender: Furthe more, she didn’t mention after I’d returned it
Michel Manen: thank you claude
Aliasi Stonebender: Dave went to the trouble of rezzing it again, but hiding it in the ground!
Justice Soothsayer: it sounds like you did the right thing, Ali. You still have the confidence of this RA member.
Aliasi Stonebender: And basically gave me the finger via IM.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, honestly… I stand by my actions. I will continue to stand by my acitons.
Claude Desmoulins: Michel I do think we could tighten up the procedures here. Having something at least in writing would help everyone know how things work,
Michel Manen: great
Michel Manen: lets do that
Pelanor Eldrich: and a formal process?
Aliasi Stonebender: I can agree with that much. I’ll also allow I am not as diplomatic as might be called for.
Michel Manen: and avoid such awkward situations for all in the future
Michel Manen: we also need to keep up to date citizens records
Michel Manen: avaialble publicly for all
Pelanor Eldrich: We *must* fill that RA archivist position, IMHO
Claude Desmoulins: I also have the sense that Aliasi, however pointed her communications may have been, took the action she did because of what she understood to be a serious threat to the functioning of the sim.
Michel Manen: and we must come to terms with the factb that whatever anyone else say, we have de facto no functioning justice system
Michel Manen: yes i dont question aliasi’s intentions
Michel Manen: i have never doubted her dedication to CDS
Michel Manen: and do not now
Pelanor Eldrich: ditto
Michel Manen: anyone willingto take on the job hse is doing deserves bnothing but our gratitude; the problem is not aliasi but our failure to have rules, records, procedures and a justice system
Claude Desmoulins: Are there other issues to discuss?
Michel Manen: well events in CDS would be a good topic i think
Justice Soothsayer: Ali, do you need any more help with the telehub?
Aliasi Stonebender: It’s not really a hard job, just time-consuming.
Aliasi Stonebender: I mean, at it’s heart, I’m intending something like the teleporter/vendors you see in many sims.
Aliasi Stonebender: that is, you choose a destination, and go there.
Aliasi Stonebender: however, there’s current a bug
Aliasi Stonebender: with the “warpPos” function many people use for such things.
Michel Manen: warpPos?
Aliasi Stonebender: It doesn’t NEED to be scripted with warpPos, mind
Aliasi Stonebender: it’s a workaround to allow a prim to basically be moved any distance instantly, Michel.
Michel Manen: ok
Aliasi Stonebender: it’s better than the old-fashioned sit-target trick, as sit-targets are limited to 200 meters in each axis.
Michel Manen: sorry how do i get rid of he statistics screen?
Aliasi Stonebender: so while I’ve got the basic code handy, it won’t exactly work until LL fixes it. They had it fixed, then rolled back the fix because the fix was crashing people. 😛
Aliasi Stonebender: Ctrl-Shift-1? again.
Michel Manen: tks
Claude Desmoulins: I’m sorry but I have to go.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, it’s not ENTIRELY being busy on my part. I’m also not real willing to implement a half-baked version if LL fixes this next maintance day.
Michel Manen: well can we make this meeting official once a month at least?
Justice Soothsayer: well, we had 4 of 5 RA members, so a good turnout even if we did spend a lot on one issue.
Aliasi Stonebender: It’s supposed to be. I’d make the actual RA meeting if I could, but schedules just don’t work out
Justice Soothsayer: yes, if would be good to meet w Ali at least once a month.
Michel Manen: so lets set the date for the next one as long as were all here plesae
Michel Manen: and the time
Justice Soothsayer: well, 3 of 5 RA members, Michel.
Michel Manen: as may as could make it 🙂
Michel Manen: many
Justice Soothsayer: gang’s not quite all here 😉
Michel Manen: at least we had a quorum 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: what does next meeting’s agenda topics look like?
Justice Soothsayer: or, I should say, not all the gang was here!
Aliasi Stonebender: anyway… let me show you what I was talking of
Michel Manen: tuesday 19 april at 7 pm slt sounds good to everyone?
Pelanor Eldrich: I’d like to get a Publius housecleaning bill, a head of state bill, and in 2-4 wks submit a franch application. All debated a priori on the forums of course.
Aliasi Stonebender: should work
Michel Manen: great lets set then the next meeting for tuesday 19 april at 7 pm slt here in the rathaus
Justice Soothsayer: april 19 is a thursday
Michel Manen: sorry april 17 then
Justice Soothsayer: and a problem for me
Justice Soothsayer: but the 17th is OK
Pelanor Eldrich: That’s the next RA/Chancellor meeting or reg. RA meeting?
Michel Manen: everyone ok with 17 april at 7 pm slt?
Michel Manen: RAA/ Chnacellor
Aliasi Stonebender: alright, just as an informational thing…
Pelanor Eldrich: got it, thx
Aliasi Stonebender: okay with me
Ranma Tardis: afraid my shift has me tied, see you all around latter
Aliasi Stonebender: see the screenshot I have up?
Michel Manen: yes
Justice Soothsayer: yes but fuzzy
Aliasi Stonebender: that’s the estate-manager tool for scripts.
Michel Manen: ok
Aliasi Stonebender: if it’s rezzed fully, you’ll note there’s a candle taking 3 ms. which I intend to track down shortly.
Aliasi Stonebender: anyway, this is how I diagnosed the issue.
Justice Soothsayer: candle is downstairs, i think
Aliasi Stonebender: a sim, normally, shouldn’t have the scripts in it taking more than maybe 15ms total.
Michel Manen: great. lets set properet procedures for dealing with this and update regularly our citiznens list and this shouldnth appen again 🙂
Aliasi Stonebender: (avatars and their attachments are added on TOP of this.)
Justice Soothsayer: interesting demo
Justice Soothsayer: thanks
Aliasi Stonebender: so, here, about 10.9 ms total, and you can see in statistics the sim is 17.3 ms, which means it’s taking 7ms to run US.
Justice Soothsayer: but i need to head out now.
Pelanor Eldrich: Very nice Ali, maybe we can put the 15ms limit in the covenant.
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, again, AIl.
Aliasi Stonebender: well, I’d go for more a tighter limit and time based, rather than the current “number of scripts”
Justice Soothsayer: night all
Aliasi Stonebender: since a sit-target script, for example, isn’t doing anything.
Nikki Maertens: Bye
Michel Manen: thank you alisai for taking te time to meet us
Aliasi Stonebender: It’s on my list, soon as I work out technical details.
The meeting closed at 20:19 Linden time.RA Meeting: March 25, 2007
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (15, 166, 41)
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Well, we’re all here.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Shall we begin?
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Ranma Tardis: keep losing connection tonight 🙁
Claude Desmoulins: Agenda is in the dispenser on the table. Please remember to touch the recorder.
Claude Desmoulins: Any reports?
Ranma Tardis: the warlocks are breaking my signal for just long enough to disconnect
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t have any reports claude, don’t know if anyone else has
Claude Desmoulins: Pulius, the code revision process?
Publius Crabgrass: slow, Claude, very slow.
Michel Manen: hi sudance good to see you 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami waves ‘hi’ to sudane 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: My apologies, but I really havent had much time to work on it, but will try in the next week. I’ve only had limited response to my request for comments on….
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: the scheme laying out those bills that are “historical”, “current”, etc.
Publius Crabgrass: I did write a brief report on our constitutional changes since the last meeting, and see that it is on the agenda for review.
Claude Desmoulins: I gues it’s time to start bugging committee members:)
Publius Crabgrass: I’ve also updated the Constitution in the books here, Rathaus, and elsewhere, to reflect the latest version.
Publius Crabgrass: I’ll bug the other commission members this week, Claude.
Patroklus Murakami: ty for that publius, that sounds like a considerable piece of work!
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks for your work, Pub.
Claude Desmoulins: Since Sudane is here can we do the Roll bill first?
Michel Manen: yes
Sudane Erato: ahh… I have 2 small notices
Patroklus Murakami: sure
Sudane Erato: if i might?
Claude Desmoulins: Pat, yhis was your submission. Would you like to speak to it?
Michel Manen: please
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry, Sudane.
Sudane Erato: 1…. i have now entered into the database 5 small rpim parcels for CN residents owning parcels within the walls
Sudane Erato: these are available on the same basis that prim parcels in NFS are
Sudane Erato: one per parcel
Sudane Erato: for in walls parcels only
Sudane Erato: PLEASE
Sudane Erato: ask for them only if you need them
Sudane Erato: there are only 5
Sudane Erato: 2……
Sudane Erato: I will shortly be revamping the way I collect monthly fees
Sudane Erato: I have had a new system craeted for me for other sims i am involved with
Claude Desmoulins listens
Sudane Erato: so I will use it here, until such time as we get a fully integrated system
Sudane Erato: which may be some time off
Sudane Erato: this is a simple payment box system
Sudane Erato: which uses L$ only
Sudane Erato: that will be a change for some people
Sudane Erato: but it will hardly cost people anything
Sudane Erato: it will be a very simple system of automated messages
Claude Desmoulins: What about those who choose to pay in $USD
Claude Desmoulins: /
Sudane Erato: with the process of paying your fee to the box
Sudane Erato: i will remove that option…
Sudane Erato: if the RA wishes to force that issue
Michel Manen: we are going to have one box fro the sim or one per lot?
Sudane Erato: then I’ll ahve to comply
Sudane Erato: there will be one box for each citizen who is paying monthly fees
Justice Soothsayer: how many pay in $USD?
Claude Desmoulins: So we’re essentially asking the citizens to pay all the conversion fees?
Sudane Erato: about 4 or 5 people pay in US$ now
Sudane Erato: the conversion fee, to buy L$ is US$1.00 per transaction
Sudane Erato: hardly a burden
Sudane Erato: it is imperative that I autoimate this system somehow
Sudane Erato: since I am unable to properly adminsiter the system manually
Sudane Erato: its getting very difficult
Sudane Erato: and this system is very simple
Claude Desmoulins: You might need to contact $USD payers individually to give them warning.
Sudane Erato: of course I wioll
Sudane Erato: and provide a grace period as well
Patroklus Murakami: i think that anything we can do to automate this system should be supported. it must take huge amounts of (unnecessary) work to administer our current system in two currencies
Patroklus Murakami: i run rental bots on my shops in Orient, admin is a breeze!
Sudane Erato: well, there still will be the necessary 2 currencies
Sudane Erato: since the tier is in US$
Sudane Erato: but this will make it much simpler
Ranma Tardis: yes but it was one of the only advantages, now that will be gone as well
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i meant accepting it in two. i take your point sudane
Sudane Erato: you know, of course, how i reqquest that you IM me when you make your transaction
Michel Manen: can we have a central sim pay box rather than one per each lot?
Sudane Erato: that will no longer be necessary
Sudane Erato: the boxes will be located centrally
Michel Manen: ok
Sudane Erato: all will be together… like a post office
Michel Manen: perfect ):
Sudane Erato: one for each sim
Ranma Tardis: you are talking about meters like Caledon?
Sudane Erato: one location
Sudane Erato: no… no meters
Sudane Erato: just a single monthly payment.. an extremely simple script
Sudane Erato: the important quality are the reminders and the noticews
Patroklus Murakami: so would our payment go out automatically? or through a reminder to pay within a certain period?
Sudane Erato: no, you’ll have to go in person, touch the box with your name on it, and pay
Publius Crabgrass: would those who aren;t going to be in world for a while be able to pay ahead?
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i see
Sudane Erato: the box will respond only to the person whose name is on it
Sudane Erato: hmmm Publius
Sudane Erato: that will be difficult
Patroklus Murakami: this sounds like a positive development, i hope it saves you some time sudane 🙂
Michel Manen: in remindeers and notices will we be informed of the maount owed?
Sudane Erato: Michel, yes
Publius Crabgrass: Im thinking of folks like Ranma who may have sporadic access as shes in Iraq
Sudane Erato: and Pat, yes… I dearly hope so
Sudane Erato: we now have 70 people
Sudane Erato: thats very hard to keep up with
Sudane Erato: in a reasonable amount of time
Sudane Erato: to answer Publius in more detail
Sudane Erato: to pay in adbvance, i will have to disconnect your box
Sudane Erato: and accept the payment manually
Patroklus Murakami: can you script the box to start glowing red, shaking and emiting steam if people are late with the rent? that would be fun to see 🙂
Sudane Erato: and then reconnect when the advance payment runs out
Michel Manen: LOL!!!
Ranma Tardis: my access comes and goes, the ecm and eccm
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: no, it will just send nasty emails and IMs to you 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Anything else?
Publius Crabgrass: good, as long as there is the possibility for manual override in such cases. I’m surprised you haven’t automated already, given the burden as we grow.
Sudane Erato: Ranma, then we will need to make special arrtangements
Claude Desmoulins: When will the new system go live?
Sudane Erato: :)… I would have loved to Publius
Ranma Tardis: I get enough nasty in my life, sigh
Sudane Erato: don’t know exactly Claude
Sudane Erato: asap
Sudane Erato: I’ll provide more details, of course
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s move to the Roll bill.
Patroklus Murakami: ok, i hope everyone has seen teh discussion on the forums?
Michel Manen: yes
Publius Crabgrass: yes
Patroklus Murakami: i wanted to make the point here that is in no way meant to be a slight on anyone
Patroklus Murakami: but we’ve arrived at a situation where it’s not entirely clear who is/is not a citizen and this is a critical issue for a democratic community
Michel Manen: indeed
Patroklus Murakami: i see this bill (or the same end arrived at through an administrative policy) as the starting point for putting things right
Michel Manen: starting point.. .well said
Patroklus Murakami: we know there are difficulties in assessing who is/is not a citizen. well, let’s get that out in the open, prepare a list using what we know and then see what teh scale of the problem is
Patroklus Murakami: i think that will enable us to solve the problem and move on
Patroklus Murakami: but we need to know where we stand first
Patroklus Murakami: that’s all from me, happy to answer questions and hear others’ views
Michel Manen: yes i atotally agree we should tie this with a revision of our citizenship rules
Michel Manen: as sudane mentioned previously
Patroklus Murakami: no michel, i’m not tying this with a revision of our citizenhsip rules. that’s a separate issue
Michel Manen: we need to address citizenship through group matters
Michel Manen: well then you should pat
Michel Manen: let me give an example
Patroklus Murakami: this may well lead to discussion of our citizenship rules. that would probably be a useful debate to have. but it’s not on the floor today
Michel Manen: rose springvale has hired an attorney who hasa joined the group; to become a citizen, US must sell him a lot, which then he must deed to the group
Michel Manen: this is very cumbersome and also shows that our curetn rules are easily circumvented
Michel Manen: so if we decide to have an up to date list of citizens
Patroklus Murakami: US?
Michel Manen: Utarid and Springvales law offices
Claude Desmoulins: I agree with Pat that linking the two will bog us down. Addressing this issue should be straightforward. Changing citizenship rules is a much more complex matter. I have no problem working on that issue, but let’s do them as tow items.
Claude Desmoulins: *two
Michel Manen: we must have a sensible manner to decide who goes on the list in the first place
Michel Manen: i dont see how the two can be separated
Michel Manen: sudane what do you think?
Patroklus Murakami: no michel, we have a manner for deciding on citizenship already. but mistakes have been made
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: yes, group membership must be clarified, but I thought the point o pat’s bill was to jumpstart getting a new, good list of citiens.
Michel Manen: well thats my point
Michel Manen: if we dont know who gets on the list the list cannot be good
Sudane Erato: the issue of whether the issues are dealt with separately or together is not a concern to me…. of concern is simply that the issues are dealt with
Claude Desmoulins: Normally I’d be concerned that Pat’s bill was micromanaging the exec.
Sudane Erato: they are Extremely important issues…
Patroklus Murakami: no, that’s not accurate michel. we *can* work out who is a citizen according to our current rules
Michel Manen: all i am sying is that pats bill is ineffective as long as we dont know who is a citizen and who isnt
Sudane Erato: and we verge on the edge of big problems if we don’t fix them
Ranma Tardis: I was against the group membership due to the problems
Claude Desmoulins: But we’ve had clear instances where the lack of a published list has caused problems.
Michel Manen: well ia gree with sudane
Michel Manen: pats bill is meaningless as is
Michel Manen: just patchwork
Patroklus Murakami: actually the law is very clear on this. but publishing a list will allow us to work out whether there are any big issues to resolve
Justice Soothsayer: still, the list of citizens needs patching, apparently, as we heard last week.
Michel Manen: well clearly there are
Patroklus Murakami: the bill is not meaningless
Michel Manen: it is if we dont know who goes on the list
Claude Desmoulins: If this is such a concern to you, Michel, you would be better served to draft a PCA with a propoal for changing how citizenship is determined, no?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m surprised to see an advocate of transparency rubbish a proposal aimed at providing a clear up to date list of our citizens
Sudane Erato: i would say that considering that the issue of citizenship will take some time to define… we sould at least take the simple step of approving Pat’s bill
Claude Desmoulins: Five more minutes please, so we have time for Beathan’s bill
Michel Manen: i belive in common decision making claude, lets first agree on the basic principle
Michel Manen: i dont rubbish it pat; i said ia gree inprinciple
Sudane Erato: quite hoestly, Alaisi and I could do it anyway
Patroklus Murakami: the basic principle is transparency
Sudane Erato: without a bill
Michel Manen: but not if it doenst have the underlying framwework that will truly help us deal with hte problems at habd
Michel Manen: hand
Patroklus Murakami: what ‘underlying framework’ do you mean? a redefinition of citizenship that hasn’t begun to be discussed?
Claude Desmoulins: The only real change in Pat’s bill is to set a month update requirement.
Patroklus Murakami: that’s putting the cart before teh horse!
Claude Desmoulins: *monthly
Claude Desmoulins: 5-15 already requires a public list.
Patroklus Murakami: yes claude, that’s teh only change
Michel Manen: sudane brought up the issue some weeks ago
Michel Manen: how long do we need?
Publius Crabgrass: at least long enough for someone to write a bill!
Patroklus Murakami: well, we need a discussion and a proposal and neither are on the agenda right now
Sudane Erato: we will publish the existing list
Michel Manen: well lets first agree on principles and thee bill is easily done
Sudane Erato: I will stand behind the fact that it includes all valid citizens
Michel Manen: ok
Patroklus Murakami: publishing the existing list will flush out all the inconsistencies and issues to resolve
Justice Soothsayer: I agree that having the citizen list will be helpful; making it monthly also brings it in line with billing practices.
Sudane Erato: it will be at least monthly
Claude Desmoulins: I’m also inclined not to tell the exec how to cross its t’s and dot its i’s
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Michel Manen: so basically what your bill does is ask sudane to publish a list and update it monthly given our current rules which are not really functional
Michel Manen: shrugs
Patroklus Murakami sighs
Publius Crabgrass giggles
Patroklus Murakami: our current rules are perfectly functional
Sudane Erato: well, Michel, they are functional
Sudane Erato: I would say they are limited
Sudane Erato: craeted for a simpler time
Sudane Erato: and they must be updated
Michel Manen: ok functionally limited
Michel Manen: lol
Patroklus Murakami: but they are potentially confusing and have not been correctly implemented. hence the problem
Sudane Erato: Newtons Law’s were functional
Sudane Erato: until Einstein came along
Michel Manen: so why arent we dealing with this instead of arguing about it ??
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Sudane Erato: we need a bill
Patroklus Murakami: LOL! why indeed
Sudane Erato: I will publish the existing list
Michel Manen: well lets agree on pricniples and the bill is easily done
Claude Desmoulins: Time’s up
Patroklus Murakami: could we put this to the vote?
Publius Crabgrass: i’m ready to vote too
Claude Desmoulins: The question has been called.
Patroklus Murakami: i vote ‘aye’
Publius Crabgrass votes Aye
Michel Manen: abstains
Justice Soothsayer: Aye
Claude Desmoulins votes aye
Claude Desmoulins: Next. 6-3 Dispute Resolution Expedition
Publius Crabgrass: This is Beathan’s bill as posted on the forums. It really hasn;t drawn any heated objections.
Publius Crabgrass: or much discussion, for that matter.
Michel Manen: well its totally miscoceived and no one wanted to get into a huge forum fight again i guess
Patroklus Murakami: what does this add to our exising law? we already have an arbitration act http://www.aliasi.us/nburgwiki/tiki-index.php?page=NL+5-20
Claude Desmoulins: The big question that this asks is , what is our “default” method to be.
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: why do we need a further law? i couldn’t understand the purpose of this
Michel Manen: i agree with pat
Justice Soothsayer: It sort of tells the SC to get moving on setting up a system of arbitrators.
Claude Desmoulins: Will we have mostly litigation, mostly arbitration, or do we leave disputants largely free to choose which model they want.
Michel Manen: which is not the SC ‘s role to do
Michel Manen: well claude indeed
Michel Manen: thats the real issue
Claude Desmoulins: The big thing I notice was that it makes arbitration the default.
Claude Desmoulins: Section 3
Patroklus Murakami: well, this may have found little objection but it’s also found very little support. i can’t see why we should stack the system in this way. if we want to tell the SC to ‘get a move on’ then surely there are other ways of doing so?
Michel Manen: yes
Michel Manen: my only additional comment
Justice Soothsayer: Quite, Pat. My point was that this bill might be more properly brought to the SC as a suggestion about how to implement arbitration.
Michel Manen: is that in adition to voting down the bill we should make a comment that we will conssider the issue of the proper structure of our judiciary as a matter of priority
Patroklus Murakami groans
Patroklus Murakami: still flogging that horse, eh? 🙂
Ranma Tardis: sighs
Michel Manen: yes i do belive we need in independetn judiciary and the rule of law here pat… sorry if you think its a dead horse
Justice Soothsayer: I believe in those goals of rule of law too, but we don’t agree on how to get there.
Patroklus Murakami: let’s not get into a high flown debate about the ‘rule of law’ and the primacy of reason. it all gets a little too pompous for my likin
Michel Manen: well lets do this in a friendly and collaborative fashion and well arrive at an agreement
Michel Manen: sorry pat ill send you coles notes then
Patroklus Murakami: we have some fairly fundamental questions to unpack if we want to make progress on that issue. i don’t see much sense of that right now
Michel Manen: all i proposed is a statement of intent
Claude Desmoulins: OTOH, If one has concerns about the SC functioning as a court, this bill would likely reduce the number of disputes that would reach the SC.
Michel Manen: not dealing with it now
Patroklus Murakami: and we have more urgent tasks to attend to than allowing some people the opportunity to play at being lawyers
Michel Manen: ok i wont get into a shuting match with you pat
Justice Soothsayer: I think its fair to say that arbitration has its place, but we need to come to a conclusion as to the overall structure before we build this bit.
Michel Manen: yes justice
Claude Desmoulins: Shall we table? I think this bill raises broader issues that need carefull and broad discussion.
Michel Manen: my point exactly
Patroklus Murakami: one thing we never really resolved during the whole judiciary debate was why we needed one in teh first place! that needs to be our starting point. what is it for?
Michel Manen: well
Michel Manen: i dont think this bill as it stands adds anything, as p at said
Michel Manen: i propoase to vote
Justice Soothsayer: I agree we should table
Publius Crabgrass: I won’t object to tabling this.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to vote on it. if we table it, don’t we keep it in play?
Michel Manen: exactly
Michel Manen: im with pat
Michel Manen: claude?
Patroklus Murakami: or we could invite beathan to the next RA
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, if yours was a motion to table, I’ll second it.
Michel Manen: claude you wnt to table or vote?
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s table to give Beathan a chance to address us at the next meeting or providemore information since it was his proposal,
Publius Crabgrass: tabling could let Beathan come and defend it . We could hold the meeting at the Colliseum and sell tickets.
Michel Manen: shrugs
Sudane Erato: hehe
Michel Manen: is that the best use of our time given the bill ads nothing?
Claude Desmoulins: Bread and circuses for the metaverse 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: My sense, Michel, is that it doesnt add “nothing”, but is one building block in what may eventually become a structure of a legal system.
Michel Manen: i still think we should vote up or doen now
Publius Crabgrass: sounds to me like we’ve got 3 votes to table this.
Patroklus Murakami: i think we have 3/4 votes to table so that seems like the likely outcome
Claude Desmoulins: Our procedure says”
Claude Desmoulins: ere may be up to 3 polls taken: 1. Is the topic ready for a vote?
Claude Desmoulins: *there
Claude Desmoulins: So we shall poll on whether to vote.
Michel Manen: ok
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of voting up or down on the bill now,
Michel Manen: aye
Justice Soothsayer: No
Publius Crabgrass: No
Patroklus Murakami: i vote nay, table it
Michel Manen: aye
Michel Manen: lol
Justice Soothsayer: one avatar, one vote.
Michel Manen: sorry
Sudane Erato: haha
Claude Desmoulins: the chair abstains
Claude Desmoulins: Motion to vote carries.
Claude Desmoulins: At this point
Michel Manen: very consistent pat as usual
Publius Crabgrass: Point of order – how does it carry? There were 2 votes yes, 2 votes no.
Patroklus Murakami: so no shouting, just sniping michel?
Publius Crabgrass: Motions take more than a majority, and 50% isn’t a majority.
Claude Desmoulins: We may either place it on next agenda or refer back to the author with a request for more information
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry
Claude Desmoulins: motion to vote fails
Claude Desmoulins: 1-3-1
Claude Desmoulins: Manen for
Claude Desmoulins: Murakami. Soothsayer, Crabgrass against
Claude Desmoulins: Desmoulins abstain
Publius Crabgrass: thanks for the clarification.
Michel Manen: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Now we can put it on next weeks agenda or refer it back to Beathan with a request for more info.
Publius Crabgrass: and ticket sales.
Claude Desmoulins: Or we can drop the topic.
Publius Crabgrass: Well, Claude, you have the power of setting the agenda.
Claude Desmoulins: I’d like it to go back to beathan with a request for clarification/explanation
Michel Manen: drop it – we have more important things to discuss in our limited time – which btew has run out today
Sudane Erato: sorry…. must go
Patroklus Murakami: bye sudane 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Publius, will you invite Beathan to submit some more explanation on his rationale, before we have our next meeting?
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Michel Manen: bye bye for now sudance.. thanks for attending 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: will do
Ranma Tardis: bye bye
Claude Desmoulins: We are out of time
Patroklus Murakami: bye ranma 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: IS there any objection to adjournment?
Patroklus Murakami: no
Publius Crabgrass: nope
Justice Soothsayer: No
Michel Manen: nay
Claude Desmoulins: We’re adjourned
Michel Manen: good bye bye for now all
Publius Crabgrass: bye all
The meeting closed at 13:06 Linden time. RA Meeting: April 01, 2007
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 184, 178)
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Publius Crabgrass: hi Pat
Delia Lake: hi Michel
Justice Soothsayer: hello all
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi Patroklus & Justice
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Does everyone have agendas?
Michel Manen: Hello again everyone
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Publius Crabgrass: I do, thanks. Claude
Claude Desmoulins: If so, let’s begin.
Anthon Dryke: che ne so in giro
Claude Desmoulins: Are there any reports?
Anthon Dryke: magari incontriamo nick cave al pianoforte
Publius Crabgrass: If you click the books on the table, you’ll get the most recently updated Constitution.
Publius Crabgrass: Sorry, but I really have been out of things this week, busy at work, and haven’t got to anything on the Code project this week.
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi Sudane
Patroklus Murakami: hi sudane 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Any other reports?
Publius Crabgrass: btw, thanks to Pay for revisions on my brief piece on the updated structure of govt.
Sudane Erato: oh
Sudane Erato: all loans have been repaid
Patroklus Murakami: np publius 🙂
Sudane Erato: just managed to finish that
Erica Bekkers: vorrei trovare
Erica Bekkers: un posto carino
Justice Soothsayer: yes! my account balance looks quite healthy again!
Erica Bekkers: antonelloooooooo
Erica Bekkers: oh romanoooo
TOPGenosse Brouwer: 🙂
Erica Bekkers: beh
Claude Desmoulins: Please remember to touch the recorder box to indicate consent.
Erica Bekkers: vediamo in giro
Erica Bekkers: noo?
Erica Bekkers: qst posto mi paice
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Now back to the Dispute resolution bill
Patroklus Murakami: yes, marvellous news. not just for those of us who have had our accounts inflated!
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
TOPGenosse Brouwer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Huh?
Claude Desmoulins: Ah the loan payback
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry
Michel Manen: There has been no further debate and Beathan is not here. I call for a final vote on it.
Claude Desmoulins: Back to Beathan’s bill
Patroklus Murakami: it’s excellent news for the community and ofr investors, is what i meant
Publius Crabgrass: i was going to send Beathan a note about his bill being on the agenda, but didn’t get to it. The only way he would know it was on the agenda is if he read the transcript.
Claude Desmoulins: poll #1. Are we ready to vote?
Michel Manen: aye
Publius Crabgrass: non
Patroklus Murakami: nay
Justice Soothsayer: no, I’d like to hear what Beathan has to say.
Claude Desmoulins: chair abstains
Claude Desmoulins: motion to vote fails 1-3-1
TOPGenosse Brouwer mumbles from audience: hi Arria
Arria Perreault: HI
Claude Desmoulins: Options are now – push to next meeting or move to forums.
Anthon Dryke: hi Arria
Arria Perreault: Hi Anthon
Justice Soothsayer: we’re not meeting next week due to Easter holiday, right? Should give ample time for forum discussion.
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of moving to forums. Remember that we can vote there as well
Patroklus Murakami: yes, justice. goood idea
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Publius Crabgrass votes yes
Justice Soothsayer: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Michel Manen: abstains
Claude Desmoulins: the proposal to move to forums carries 4-0-1
Claude Desmoulins: Now Archivist.
Claude Desmoulins: Let me fill in here.
Claude Desmoulins: when we created the position, I stepped in on what has been a rather long intereim basis. The RA wrote a job description but never moved forward on creating a selection process.
Claude Desmoulins: Pel has now made application for the position.
Sudane Erato: Good news!
TOPGenosse Brouwer nods 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Kudos to Claude for filling in so long, esp with heavy family commitments! 😉
Claude Desmoulins: We didn’t exactly advertise the position.
Sudane Erato: yes Justice… agreed 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: I’m happy to let Pel or someone do it.
Claude Desmoulins: Do we need to leave it open to allow other interested parties to enter in if they wish?
Justice Soothsayer: I don’t see a long line out the door of the Rathaus…
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: True.
Patroklus Murakami: pel would doa fine job, i’m sure. has anyone else expressed and interest?
Claude Desmoulins: How many others know of the position and that it’s in the process of being filled?
Claude Desmoulins: It’s likely Pel will remain out only applicant.
Patroklus Murakami: not many, i would guess
Michel Manen: well nt many since its not been advertised
Justice Soothsayer: maybe we should give it to Pel on an interim basis, then advertise?
Claude Desmoulins: I would move that we keep applications open until the 12th and select a permanent archivist on the 15th.
Publius Crabgrass: maybe send out notice via the new CDS group
Patroklus Murakami: that sounds like a sensible way forward claude
Michel Manen: i second justices proposla
Claude Desmoulins: I guess we could do both.
Publius Crabgrass: heh, let the interim Archivist post the advertisement as his first job. See if he gets it right!
Claude Desmoulins: Allow Pel to serve as interim at the April 15 meeting where we choose a permanent archivist.
Michel Manen: Pel by interim, 2 week advertising, if no other candiddates we confrim him yes
Justice Soothsayer: sounds good, Michel.
Patroklus Murakami: agreed
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Michel Manen: aye
Claude Desmoulins: abstains.
Claude Desmoulins: That takes care of the action items.
Claude Desmoulins: I understand the Guild is starting a sim design process/competiton?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i saw that in the minutes of one of their first meetings
Claude Desmoulins: WOuld someone besides me be willing to be a collection point for other archivist apps?
Claude Desmoulins: BTW
Michel Manen: the proposals can be submitted for a 2 week period starting on March 25th i think
TOPGenosse Brouwer: M > Proposals for a 3rd sim?
Michel Manen: yes
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (since no one’s talking:) sounds very short to me, but I’m sure the guild has given it the attention it deserves ..
Michel Manen: well
Michel Manen: 2 weeks tosubmit
Michel Manen: then 2 weeks to debate
Michel Manen: then 1 week to vote
Michel Manen: 5 weeks in all
TOPGenosse Brouwer: i c OK
Claude Desmoulins: How do we fit into all of this?
Claude Desmoulins: Archivist announcement is posted to CDS group in world and the forums
Michel Manen: i think we select the finalists to go to a popular vote
Michel Manen: based on the number of submissions we decide how many finalists htere are
Patroklus Murakami: we decide when, and whether, to expand to a third sim
Michel Manen: so only viable proposals can be voted on
Michel Manen: that too Pat, of course
Claude Desmoulins: So we want to think about that question.
Publius Crabgrass: given the CN success, I’d like to see us move ahead with expansion fairly soon.
Patroklus Murakami: whether and when? surely, the sooner the better?
Michel Manen: well from what i understood not before november
Michel Manen: the 1st ear anniversary of CN
Justice Soothsayer: yep, I’m also in favor of expanding
Patroklus Murakami: why ‘not before november’ michel?
Michel Manen: because as per previous meetings sudane suggested and we agreed to a one year waiting time from Cns inauguration
Sudane Erato: i do urge going slow….
Sudane Erato: i am not particular about the 12 month period
Patroklus Murakami: oh? i donn’t recall that. can u remember which meeting so i can find the transcript?
Michel Manen: no but i can look it up
Patroklus Murakami: ty
Michel Manen: btw if we all agree to go ahead earlier im open to that
Michel Manen: but i think we shoudl listen to sudane s advice
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, what would your advice be? how are our finances?
Sudane Erato: well… our finances are good…
Sudane Erato: but i would not assume that the success we have had with CN wil always be repeated
Sudane Erato: we are not a RICH organization
Sudane Erato: we are healthy
Sudane Erato: so, we will still have to borrow
Sudane Erato: in order to add sims
Michel Manen: so what is the earliest time froame for a new sim in your opinion?
Sudane Erato: i think that as we add sims… we should also slowly seek to gain a srong balance sheet… meaning cash position
Michel Manen: indeed
Sudane Erato: so tyhat less and less of the new sim price need be borrowed
Claude Desmoulins: Can we wrap this impromptu discussion and the meeting at 12:40?
Michel Manen: the vote on the sim will be held, i think, on 1st may.. how soon after that can we go ahead do you think?
Justice Soothsayer: it wasn’t on the agenda, but always useful to talk about our future growth.
Sudane Erato: i guess my feeling… just a feeling….
Sudane Erato: remember
Sudane Erato: this new sim will be much more expensive
Sudane Erato: both in price and in tier
Michel Manen: and with that come issues of rent differentiation or equalization
Sudane Erato: that will be another issue, yes
Patroklus Murakami: that’s a very important consideration. you’re quite right to raise it sudane
Claude Desmoulins: Good point
Patroklus Murakami: i think we need to establish what our policy is about ‘voice’ and whether to upgrade/get done over by Linden Labs
Michel Manen: so once we decide we should give us at least 2-3 months to plan it out and work out outstanding issues.. so we’re looking at july-august, which fits in with sudanes estimate
Patroklus Murakami: as that will have a bearing on decisions about a new sim
Sudane Erato: the options regarding voice and tier increases are not yet set
Justice Soothsayer: is there any advantage to reserving early?
Sudane Erato: so I would strongly suggest NOT planning around something about which we know really nothing
Sudane Erato: no
Sudane Erato: no discount for reservation 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: that dependes sudane. we know a little about what is planned. if we want to join the ‘rejectionist’ camp in wider SL then we need to be making commmon cause with allies such as desmond shang, for example
Sudane Erato: well, I feel that LL floated this idea as it often does…
Michel Manen: i agree and in fact have raised this in a previous meeting
Sudane Erato: that does NOT mean they will carry it through
Sudane Erato: i personally feel no need to get in one camp or another regarding ideas which LL “floats”
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i agree they’re flying a kite. the qn is whether we want to influence events and how we might do that
Sudane Erato: please remember… sooner or later… all our sims will cost US$295/month
Claude Desmoulins: OK times up
Michel Manen: i think we should have contingency plans for verious posiblities and know what we will do in eeach situation rather than wait unprepared until we get the eater egg 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Is there any objection to adjournment?
Michel Manen: aye i have two short announcement
TOPGenosse Brouwer: i have 1
Michel Manen: first, i have set up a temporary central tp point in CN
Michel Manen: until the chancellor gets round to doing it
Michel Manen: and have talked to her today
Michel Manen: confirming this
Sudane Erato: ? there already is a central tp point ?
Michel Manen: yes
TOPGenosse Brouwer: yes thanks, looks good.
Michel Manen: but from there people can now tp to various paoints in the sim
Sudane Erato: oh!
Sudane Erato: great
Michel Manen: second in cooperation with Draxtor Despres, a RL radio professional, CARE will propose a Public private partnership to set up a CDS radio station
Patroklus Murakami: sounds like a boon 🙂
Michel Manen: details willl be posted in the next few days on the forum
Justice Soothsayer: intriguing
Michel Manen: so it would be useful if we could discuss
Michel Manen: opver the next 2 weeks
Michel Manen: and have an informed debate i n2 weeks time
Arria Perreault: Just a question: how is it possible to be on central tp point in CN?
Michel Manen: just ask and you will be added i think 🙂
Arria Perreault: thank you
Publius Crabgrass: posting details on radio opportunity on the forums, Michel?
Michel Manen: yes f course
Michel Manen: within the nexrt few days
Delia Lake: i didn’t know about the radio station plans, but i would like to add that Draxtor has filmed and interviewed us at MoCA for his programs in rl and sl
Sudane Erato: sorry… must go
Patroklus Murakami: i look forward to seeing the details of the proposal
Michel Manen: indeed 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: bye Sudane
Michel Manen: bye bye for now sudane
Arria Perreault: bye
Claude Desmoulins: TOP?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: If Michel has said his two things, may I add: No plots for sale, but Altenburg remains undevelloped
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Something for faction policies, I think.
Michel Manen: pel has urged this debate also in the forums
Patroklus Murakami: that would be under the Chancellor’s remit, would it not?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Does the chancellor decide on what happens with land?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Michel Manen: well, she would approve rezoning issues and such
Claude Desmoulins: I’d imagine we’d haev some input. But she could certainly get the ball rolling.
Claude Desmoulins: Anything else?
Michel Manen: but it would be nice for us to decide what the substantive plan shoudl be
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I would like that yes.
Michel Manen: in cooperation with interested citizens and ngos
TOPGenosse Brouwer: yes
Michel Manen: lol its called participative democracy.. grins
Patroklus Murakami: another one for teh forums then?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I hope so.
Michel Manen: well
Patroklus Murakami: pfft
Michel Manen: i think it should go beyond the forums
Michel Manen: to really involve citizens who dont read them
Michel Manen: so i think a subcommitte would be appropriate
TOPGenosse Brouwer: /m wonders if the 3rd sim proposal period was communicated BEYOND the forum .. I think *not*.
Arria Perreault: where should we adress the proposals?
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, but I’ve got to leave.
Patroklus Murakami: Constitution Art II, Section 2 “The Chancellor of Neufreistadt-CDS shall, subject to the laws of CDS, have the power: (a) to determine the use to which any and all land in Neufriestadt shall be put; ” (where ‘Neufreistadt=CDS)
TOPGenosse Brouwer: bye Justice
Michel Manen: bye bye for now justice
TOPGenosse Brouwer: ty Pat
Patroklus Murakami: bye justice
Arria Perreault: bye
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s adjourn
Publius Crabgrass: ok
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Michel Manen: aye
Claude Desmoulins: Ok we’re adjourned until April 15
Claude Desmoulins: Remember no meeting on Easter
Publius Crabgrass: ok
Patroklus Murakami: bye all. happy easter 🙂
Michel Manen: bye bye for now all
The meeting closed at 12:56 Linden time.RA Meeting: April 15, 2007
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 165, 41)
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Claude Desmoulins: Justice,
Publius Crabgrass: yes?
Claude Desmoulins: I’m going to try to switch to my other machine.
Claude Desmoulins: Please start the meeting while I’m out.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: OK, Claude
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe I’ve finally caught up.
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s finally begin
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Any reports?
Patroklus Murakami: none from me
Publius Crabgrass: nope
Claude Desmoulins: On to archivist.
Claude Desmoulins: Pel is our only applicant.
Publius Crabgrass: do the five stars atop his head represent a badge of office?
Pelanor Eldrich: Sorry, rate point. I’m not a 5 star general.
Claude Desmoulins: Do we want to hire him on the spot?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i think we should. before he changes his mind!
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, he’s the only applicant and a fine one.
Pelanor Eldrich: I’ll try to be here, and be here on time.
Pelanor Eldrich: The RA meeting times are better for me now than they were last session.
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor…
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Claude Desmoulins: Now dispute resolution
Pelanor Eldrich: Thanks.
Patroklus Murakami: congrats
Justice Soothsayer: I’d like to withdraw that. Beathan has been out of contact for some time (the author of the bill).
Justice Soothsayer: I think he’s been occupied with a mammoth RL case. So let’s take this off the table without prejudice to later consideration.
Publius Crabgrass: Yes, that’s what was said earlier.
Claude Desmoulins: There’s been no discussion
Publius Crabgrass: (before recorder was on).
Publius Crabgrass: nothing in the forums either.
Patroklus Murakami: i support justice’s proposal – table until beathan can come and put forward a case
Publius Crabgrass: I quite agree.
Claude Desmoulins: I move we yable indefinitely
Claude Desmoulins: *table
Patroklus Murakami: yable away!
Publius Crabgrass: I put it in the hopper for Beathan, and agree we should table it
Claude Desmoulins: that’s everyone, isn’t it.
Publius Crabgrass: yes, looks like 4 votes to table
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of tabling indefinitely…
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Patroklus Murakami: anyone know why michel isn’t here? did he send apologies?
Claude Desmoulins: I haven’t heard from him.
Patroklus Murakami: guess he could have been confused about dates, duration of the EAster break….
Claude Desmoulins: Next…event suport
Claude Desmoulins: *support
Claude Desmoulins: Discussion?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m in support of this proposal. i put fwd a similar idea on the forums a few months back but it didn’t get much RA debate. i have one concern tho
Publius Crabgrass: I’m not against bread & circuses, but I’m not sure this is fully thought out. Didnt LL drop event support? And would $4k be enough to jump start anything?
Patroklus Murakami: if the Exec is to set the rules for the allocation of the money then the Chancellor needs to make the rules she applies public. we need transparency
Pelanor Eldrich: Is it like applying for a gov’t grant to get this support?
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: As to the $L figure I didn’t want to overstress the budget and wanted to start smal.
Patroklus Murakami: i hear waht you’re saying publius. the problem with this kind of idea is that ppl come to expect it and squeal when it’s withdrawn. we need to make it clear that it’s pump-priming money, not aht pl have the *right* to govnt support for events
Patroklus Murakami: *that ppl*
Justice Soothsayer: I certainly would like to see more events here – Top et al have been working very hard.
Justice Soothsayer: we’re supposed to meet w Ali this week, why don’t we discuss it with her then?
Pelanor Eldrich: The MoCA events have been really quite successful.
Patroklus Murakami: yes, this is a token if you will of our support for events and drawing in ppl to the CDS. it’s nto enough to be an income but it shows we care 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: yes, she’s the one who would administer this, right?
Claude Desmoulins: I certainly would take as a friendly ab anebdnebt to make the rules public,…but
Claude Desmoulins: What about tabling this to the 17th meeting?
Publius Crabgrass: not a bad idea
Pelanor Eldrich: To see if Ali is willing to take it on?
Claude Desmoulins: Is everyone else as laggy as all getout or is it just me?
Patroklus Murakami: Add ‘The Executive will make public the basis on which funds are allocated and post a notice of any events which are funded this way”
Patroklus Murakami: how does that sound?
Publius Crabgrass: and also to see how she’d administer it.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m happy to table
Patroklus Murakami: (lagging badly also)
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll add that as a friendly and let’s table to Tuesday.
Pelanor Eldrich: We have a greifer warning for CN I relayed from Ranma.
Publius Crabgrass: lag here too, hope we’re not the next sim to go after NFS
Patroklus Murakami: what kind of griefer pel?
Pelanor Eldrich: Andr3as Kidd, naked and armed. Ranma just chased him away.
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. give him to me, i love a man with a big weapon 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, couldnt’ resist!
Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: What do the sim stats look like?
Patroklus Murakami: hmm, ok i think
Pelanor Eldrich: You realize that’ll be immortalized in the archives. Maybe it’ll make the Bar Assoication Journal someday. 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: yeah, just realised the recorder’s on, ah well, nm 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: I met our bar assn reporter in RL on Friday – she’s very nice and looks much like her avatar.
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, off topic
Pelanor Eldrich: …
Patroklus Murakami waits…
Publius Crabgrass: lag-induced torpor settles in
Patroklus Murakami: embrace the lag. love the lag!
Claude Desmoulins: Do we want to try to debate citizenship or can we push that back to forums.
Patroklus Murakami: i think this still needs some work
Justice Soothsayer: yes, i think the forum debate is very helpful
Claude Desmoulins: Another possibility would be to alow group owwnership, but nto citizenship derived from group land.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m stll worried about the proposal (I tend to worry about these things) and the forum discussion has been helpful
Claude Desmoulins: Notice that the bill in the agenda has been changed to reflect some of the discussion.
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s move this back to forums and adjourn. Any objection?
Patroklus Murakami: that’s an interesting proposal claude. i’d like to consider it further. would it mean that partners would be able to hold land in common tho? or would they need their own land as well?
Patroklus Murakami: happy to discuss further on the forums
Patroklus Murakami: and adjourn. my supper’s ready soon and i’m getting looks!
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s do that.
Claude Desmoulins: We’re adjourned
Publius Crabgrass: ok
Patroklus Murakami: agreed
Justice Soothsayer: No objection.
Pelanor Eldrich: ok, Claude we’ll be in touch. I’m your employee now.
Claude Desmoulins: Please leave CN. I’m going to restart the sim to se if it helps the lag.
Publius Crabgrass: OK
The meeting closed at 12:51 Linden time.RA Meeting: April 22, 2007
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer: hi Pay
Justice Soothsayer: *Pat
Patroklus Murakami: hi justice
Justice Soothsayer: Publius emailed me a little while ago to say he’d be a few minutes late; Claude may not be here at all
Patroklus Murakami: ok
Justice Soothsayer: I don’t have an agenda (hidden or otherwise) 😉
Patroklus Murakami: aah, *everyone* has an agenda 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: perhaps mine is just deeply hidden. Oh wait, I do have one. But it is from the last meeting!
Justice Soothsayer: Michel is on his way
Patroklus Murakami: i’m getting terrible texture flashing right now. might have to log out and in again
Justice Soothsayer: ok
Patroklus Murakami: hi michel
Justice Soothsayer: hi Michel
Michel Manen: hello everyone
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: Moon is going to attend to raise a few important guild and IP rights issues
Patroklus Murakami: i’m gonna try swapping computers. texture flashing is driving me nuts 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: ok Pat, we’ll wait
Justice Soothsayer: Publius is running a little late, Michel. He emailed me a bit ago. And Claude probably wont be here at all.
Michel Manen: what s up with Claude/
Justice Soothsayer: family commitment
Michel Manen: is his son ok?
Justice Soothsayer: yeah, I dont think its a medical issue.
Michel Manen: good
Patroklus Murakami: back
Justice Soothsayer: wb Pat
Michel Manen: so we have a quorum now, a few more minutes for the others?
Justice Soothsayer: start at 1205?
Michel Manen: done
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: justice, u said u don’t have an agenda. can we agree a provisional one?
Michel Manen: sure
Michel Manen: any items pat?
Justice Soothsayer: ok – what’;s on your lists?
Patroklus Murakami: events funding
Patroklus Murakami: we could also discuss the amendment to 5-9 on group ownership
Michel Manen: well moon has 2 issues : guild space on th CDS forum and public IP rights
Michel Manen: and ihope Draxtor Dexpres will be here in 15 to present the radio porject
Michel Manen: ah publius greatPatroklus Murakami: guild forum? isn’t that an SC issue?
Michel Manen: yes but the sc has not had a quorum in months
Michel Manen: and the guild is desparate for commuication on forums
Justice Soothsayer: being an SC issue doesn’t mean we can’t give an opinion
Michel Manen: yes
Michel Manen: we need to move on this\
Patroklus Murakami: there are other forums…
Publius Crabgrass: hello everyone
Patroklus Murakami: hi publius
Publius Crabgrass: sorry I’m late
Michel Manen: this has to do with the new sim also its public pusiness paat
Publius Crabgrass has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: i dont see the [orblem to give them a thread
Justice Soothsayer: Everyone please touch the recorder for consent
Michel Manen: on hte CDS forum
Publius Crabgrass: hi Brian
Patroklus Murakami: and the argument that the SC hasn’t met in months does not really imply that the RA has the right to usurp the SCs role. but i wait to see what the proposal is 🙂
Michel Manen: hi brian
Justice Soothsayer: hello Brian
Michel Manen: good
Brian Livingston: Hi 🙂 Just observing, don’t mind me 🙂
Michel Manen: so lets not argue technicalities yet
Moon Adamant: hello all 🙂
Michel Manen: hi moon
Justice Soothsayer: OK, let’s get started. Since Claude is away, I’m chairing the meeting.
Michel Manen: good
Justice Soothsayer: Hello Moon.
Patroklus Murakami: hi moon, brian
Moon Adamant: i have a request to the acting LRA
Justice Soothsayer: We don’t have a previously published agenda, but the first item on the list is to discuss event funding.
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, Moon?
Brian Livingston has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: i would like to call the IP transfer rights issue for NFS and CN public areas content
Moon Adamant: seeing that this has been dragging for almost one year now
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, and Michel said you wanted to raise the forum issue as well.
Moon Adamant: as regards NFS, less for CN
Michel Manen: hi jon glad you could join us
Jon Seattle: Hi
Patroklus Murakami: hi jon. good to see u:)
Publius Crabgrass: hello Jon
Jon Seattle: Thanks.. not sure I am still connected
Justice Soothsayer: hi Jon
Justice Soothsayer: you look connected to me!Jon Seattle: Thats better 🙂
Jon Seattle: Thanks! 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: OK – first up: events funding.
Moon Adamant: but i will be happy to wait for the agenda points to be discussed first
Justice Soothsayer: Followed by Moon.
Justice Soothsayer: Then if there’s time, we’ll go to 5-9 amendments on groups.
Justice Soothsayer: So, event funding. It has been proposed that we budget L$4k per month
Patroklus Murakami: claude kindly put my february proposal for events funding into a bill. i assume everone’s seen it on our forums? needless to say i support it! it’s pump[priming money. not for every. thoughts?
Patroklus Murakami: *for ever
Publius Crabgrass: We were going to disucss this w Ali at the meeting that wasn’t.
Michel Manen: well whos going to adminisgter it? us or the non exisiting ipo?
Patroklus Murakami: the executive branceh
Patroklus Murakami: so, aliasi. in the absence of a PIO
Publius Crabgrass: and the executive branch and the rest of the legislative branch didn’t make it to the meeting!
Michel Manen: well aliasi is very busy will she have time to dedicate to thids?
Patroklus Murakami: brbr
Justice Soothsayer: sorry about that, Publius
Michel Manen: remeber the CN centrl tp point? i had to pay to get one done so we could have one at all.. im all for the idea but it has to function in practice
Michel Manen: i wont support giving more tasks to someone already overburdemend and short of time
Michel Manen: so provided we can get an IPO yes i supoort it
Patroklus Murakami: surely the principle is ‘is event funding a good idea or no?’ the current burdens on the executive branch are a secondary consideration
Publius Crabgrass: well, I ‘ve thought about the idea, and I do think we need more events, so I’;m willing to support this as a pump-priming, as Pat suggests. A
Michel Manen: no theire not
Michel Manen: if we cant put this in practice the idea is irrelevant
Publius Crabgrass: it is practical queston: who is going to do it?
Michel Manen: yes
Michel Manen: indeed
Michel Manen: i will not vote on giving funds to an idea that will drag for god knows how long
Patroklus Murakami: that doesn’t make sense michel. if there is a problem with the chancellor’s workload that’sa separate issue
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, remind us, as there a time limit on the proposed expenditures?
Michel Manen: even if the idea is good in itself
Patroklus Murakami: i can’t access the bill right now (laptop is limited)
Michel Manen: Hi DD good to see yoyu have a seat plz
Draxtor Despres: hi
Justice Soothsayer rummaging
Michel Manen: so i suggst we approve pats bill and add the sunset clause that an IPO must be selcted within 1 month or it becomes null and voidJustice Soothsayer: I don’t have Pat’s bill, just what was on the forums: “It’s clear that there’s some dissatisfaction being expressed on these forums at the lack of events and ‘buzz’ in the CDS at the moment. What can the RA do to help? Here are some thoughts for kicking around: 1. Pay citizens to host events. The Lindens used to do this (along with a host of developer incentives which have now gone). Why not pay people L$500/event for hosting quizzes, games, discussions? A budget of L$4000/month would pay for a weekly event in Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova. 2. Set up a training programme for Events Organisers. The training would involve putting on larger-scale events in the CDS (like the wonderful Inaugural Ball we had for the 5th RA session) and provide the trainees with a highly marketable SL skill. 3. Establish a Commission on the Anzere infohub. There are a number of people who’ve expressed a desire to improve the Anzere infohub. A Commission would be one way to channel those energies. ”
Patroklus Murakami: Bill is “The Executive is directed to create a program for financial and other support of events in the CDS. A sum of $L4000/month is appropriated to this program beginning in April 2007 and running through the end of the current budget.”
Michel Manen: ok thats fine i agree ; im just concerned about the practicality of it now
Patroklus Murakami: so it ends in April 08
Justice Soothsayer: TY
Patroklus Murakami: it’s up to the exec to solve the PIO problem
Michel Manen: not if the exec cant get it together
Michel Manen: we control funds
Michel Manen: and i will not vote funds for something that will drag
Patroklus Murakami: if the chancellor is too busy to do this then she needs to delegate
Michel Manen: well we still dont have an IPO after such a long time
Michel Manen: so i reiterate my sunset clasue idea
Publius Crabgrass: I suppose we could always amend it if it doesnt work. We’re setting a budget, which may not have to be expended
Patroklus Murakami: why do u think we still don’t have a PIO michel?
Michel Manen: because the one who applied and was selcted quit
Justice Soothsayer: lets not get sidetracked
Michel Manen: and he wasnt repalced
Justice Soothsayer: question is on event funding, not a PIO
Patroklus Murakami: and not having an events budget helps the search for a PIO how?
Patroklus Murakami: i’m still puzzled by michel’s logic
Michel Manen: pat i said i will vote yes provided we can make susre this moves quickly
Michel Manen: sorry if you dont get it
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think that we have control over that. this is authorisation for the executive branch
Justice Soothsayer: so, Michel, are you saying you want a limit that is different than what pat’s proposed?
Brian Livingston: I thinkthat having this in the budget helps the search for a PIO, as it shows the candidate that the CDS is serious aboutproviding the tools neccessary to making the PIO’
Brian Livingston: effective
Michel Manen: we can incorporate a sunset clause in the bill as i proposed
Patroklus Murakami: it’s up to the exec to ‘make it happen’
Patroklus Murakami: good point brian 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: sunset when, PAy?Justice Soothsayer: uh, sunset hen, Michel?
Michel Manen: 1 month from now
Patroklus Murakami: it has a sunset, april 08!
Michel Manen: april 8????
Justice Soothsayer: 1 month seems a little short to me to give it a fair try, but a full year is a bit long.
Patroklus Murakami: that’s ridiculous michel. you’re attaching unnecessary conditions. this will kill the idea
Michel Manen: were on april 21stnow
Patroklus Murakami: april 2008
Michel Manen: no if we have an ipo within 1 month the sunset clasue didapperas
Patroklus Murakami: april 08 is an abbreviation
Michel Manen: all im saying lets make sure we get an ipo soon to administer the funds
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think that michel’s propoal is reasonable
Michel Manen: whats so difficulat with this?
Brian Livingston: And if the PIO quits afterwards? By that definition, to save this act, I couldvoulenteer as teh PIO for a minute and then quit…
Michel Manen: lol
Brian Livingston: Or more realisticalyl, a month
Patroklus Murakami: why can’t we leave the executive branch to sort out it’s own affairs? why the need to meddle in the work of the other branches?
Patroklus Murakami: i find this trend worrying
Michel Manen: well if we do that theres not much point in anything we do here brian
Publius Crabgrass: I’d like to suggest a middle ground: tying this to having a PIO within a month doesn’t make sense to me, but a full year worth of events budget is a bit much since this is an experiment. I’d say let’s propose appropriating 4k per month for 3 months, then reevaluate.
Michel Manen: because the exec is ov erburneded and i dont want to pile up mor tasks on top of others that arent gettign odne
Michel Manen: agrred publius
Justice Soothsayer: sounds reasonable to me, Publius.
Michel Manen: yey
Michel Manen: vote?
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, are you OK ith that approach?
Patroklus Murakami: what would the amended proposal look like?
Patroklus Murakami: we need a text to propose a vote
Justice Soothsayer: arrgh, my “w” key is giving me fits
Justice Soothsayer: I think we’re amending your text, Pat, to limit it to 3 months (and dropping Michel’s idea to tie it to a PIO)
Michel Manen: ok
Justice Soothsayer: accpt as a a friendly amendment?
Michel Manen: and if the exec gets things moving within 3 months we can prolong it to april 8 2008
Patroklus Murakami: it’s not my bill
Publius Crabgrass: “The Executive is directed to create a program for financial and other support of events in the CDS. A sum of $L4000/month is appropriated to this program beginning in April 2007 and running through the end of the current budget.” will change to July 07
Michel Manen: okPatroklus Murakami: and it don’t consider it to be friendly 🙂
Michel Manen: i can support that
Publius Crabgrass: So, lets vote on the amendment
Justice Soothsayer: All in favor of amending the bill to provide 3 months appropriation instead of “through the end of the current budget”?
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Michel Manen: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: against. i don’t understand the need for a three month limit
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries, 3 to 1. Now we vote on the bill as amended. Any further discussion?
Michel Manen: its caled acountability pat
Michel Manen: no
Publius Crabgrass: no
Justice Soothsayer: OK – all in favor of the bill as amended?
Michel Manen: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Patroklus Murakami notes that michel can’t spell ‘accountability’
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Bill passes.
Patroklus Murakami: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: On to Moon
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry to keep the lovely Moon waiting.
Michel Manen: smiles
Justice Soothsayer: We had a little discussion before you got here, Moon, on the Forum issue.
Justice Soothsayer: Could we address that first?
Moon Adamant: surely
Moon Adamant: and sorry, was giving some technical help in IM
Moon Adamant: the point is
Moon Adamant: and about forums – i fully understand that the SC is in charge of the forums
Michel Manen: ah
Michel Manen: the SC uis here
Michel Manen: lol
Moon Adamant: btw, gwyn is coming here, should i wait for her=
Michel Manen: hello gywn perfect timing 🙂
Moon Adamant: ah, there she is
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol thanks :)e Patroklus Murakami: speak of the devil….:)
Michel Manen: moon was just discussing forum space for th guild
Moon Adamant: yes lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Moon Adamant: uberdevil 🙂
Moon Adamant: anyway
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Moon Adamant: the guild needs some communication channelGwyneth Llewelyn: oh, fun 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: we have important issues to discuss, we hold regular meetings
Moon Adamant: we will hold public training events
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Jon Seattle: Yes, I think it is important actially to extend access to the forum to all chartered organizations.
Michel Manen: i agree entirely
Michel Manen: but as paat said we need th SC to move on this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well the SC *tried* to meet on the issue…
Moon Adamant: the guild has an aknowledged public charter
Moon Adamant: we provide a public service
Moon Adamant: we organized a petition to the SC asking for a forum thread to be set
Michel Manen: well then i think the RA should ask rthe SC chair to make the forum available to the guold unless the SC quorum neets and rejects thtis
Moon Adamant: but teh SC had no quorum
Patroklus Murakami: well, there’s a question of the separation of powers here. this is a matter for the SC, not the RA
Moon Adamant: so… we do not know what to do
Moon Adamant: indeed Pat
Justice Soothsayer: I’m not sure there’s much we can do to help, Moon, short of amending the constitution to take forums away from the SC.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye. I think I’m the last voting member of the SC …
Michel Manen: as i said the RA should recommened to the SC chair to move on this on its own unless the SC quorum is constituted and reacehs an opposite decision
Patroklus Murakami: and alos of consistency. the traders association was granted. and then denied a sub-forum
Justice Soothsayer: But we can certainly suggest that the Dean should take action.
Moon Adamant: yes Pat, i am aware of teh precedent
Michel Manen: yes justice
Patroklus Murakami: the SC at least needs to be consistent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got a petition 🙂
Moon Adamant: but – i point out – the guild has a RA approved charter
Moon Adamant: to provide a public service
Publius Crabgrass: what, grant it and revoke it? heh
Michel Manen: yes and a lot of key tasks coming up in the near future
Moon Adamant: the guild considers
Michel Manen: so justice you swant to move the motion?
Moon Adamant: that this is not something we demand for ourselves
Moon Adamant: but that we can open a precedent for other groups with approved charters as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well if all else fails, there will be a decision with a vote of one at the SC 😛
Michel Manen: great
Justice Soothsayer: I guess I’ll put it this way: the RA resolves that it is our opinion that the New Guild should have a forum channel, and asks the Dean to consider creating one.
Michel Manen: as long as it gets done
Michel Manen: perfect justiceGwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
Publius Crabgrass: Second
Michel Manen: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: too absolutist for my taste, Michel 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: hmmm. treading on other branches toes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice ? you shuld extend that
Michel Manen: we ask you to consider it gwyn
Justice Soothsayer: Absolut? SC meetings come with vodka now?
Patroklus Murakami: the arrogance of the legislature once more
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to all chartered NGOs
Moon Adamant: an alternative
Michel Manen: fine all chartered NGOs providing a public service
Jon Seattle: I see no objection to the RA expresing their opinion as long as it is not held as being law in this case.
Justice Soothsayer: Pat – I think we’re entitled to express our opinion as representatives. We aren’t ordering Gwyn to do anything, just aksing.
Justice Soothsayer: *asking
Michel Manen: i agree with justice
Patroklus Murakami: when the RA used not to meet, did the SC fill the vacuum?
Moon Adamant: could be to use the Old Guild Forum… sort of overhaul it and nmove it from the Governemnt section
Jon Seattle: And yes, I think extend it to all chartered organizations.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes Michel, and who decides what public service is, is the RA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the idea, btw…
Michel Manen: the NGO charters
Justice Soothsayer: No objection to expanding that request to all publicly chartered institutions.
Michel Manen: nay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: as approved by theRA
Michel Manen: yes
Draxtor Despres: sorry to interrupt, but I have another meeting to go to
Draxtor Despres: i will give the representation about virtual public radio antoerh day
Justice Soothsayer: So the motion is: the RA resolves that it is our opinion that publicly chartered institutions should have a forum channel, and asks the Dean to consider creating one.
Patroklus Murakami: sorry, but the RA is overstepping the limit of its powers
Draxtor Despres: anyone interested can contact me and i can give them a sheet. we will start broadcast June 1st
Michel Manen: i vote aye
Justice Soothsayer: Are you ready for a vote on that?
Patroklus Murakami: we should not even be discussing this
Michel Manen: yes
Patroklus Murakami: nay
Justice Soothsayer: All in favor?
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Michel Manen: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Pat?Patroklus Murakami: nay
Justice Soothsayer: Aye. Motion carries 3-1.
Michel Manen: good and since the SC chair is here she is aware of it now
Justice Soothsayer: SC can strike it as unconstitution if it ever musters a quorum. 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Michel Manen: lol justice good 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, you also had an IP issue to raise?
Moon Adamant: yes
Moon Adamant: this is not a guild issue
Moon Adamant: but i speak in two roles here
Moon Adamant: one as aprivate builder of public content
Justice Soothsayer: btw – I have to leave right about @ 1, so let’s keep this to 10 minutes
Moon Adamant: and the other as the chair of the SPC
Moon Adamant: the transfer of IP rights
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes
Moon Adamant: from content makers to the city
Moon Adamant: on public areas
Moon Adamant: hasn’t been done yet
Moon Adamant: this issue has been dragging for almost one year now, as refers to NFS content such as bridges
Michel Manen: yes we need to solve this before we move on to the next sim ideally 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: who’s responsibility is that moon?
Moon Adamant: and Dianne’s city walls – and in fact has caused already some ill feelings
Moon Adamant: Pt, that’s one point there – i do not know
Moon Adamant: i am sure that the RA has passed an act regarding this last year
Michel Manen: because no one knows… smiles.. Gwyn any historical background?
Moon Adamant: but the implementation of that act… has failed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Moon Adamant: as regards CN
Moon Adamant: i feel as chair of the SPC that this is SPC responsability
Moon Adamant: and that the SPC should be able to solve this, and then extinguish itself
Moon Adamant: BUT
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, what is not happening that should be happening, in your opinion?
Michel Manen: who will the IP rights be vested in?
Moon Adamant: the SPC wasn’t ever mandated to do this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: responsability is split – the RA approved the building of CN, but I would say the Exec deals with these details…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: never the SPC….
Moon Adamant: well, for some months there were some ssues about notary
Moon Adamant: but i think they are solved now
Moon Adamant: i think what is lacking
Moon Adamant: is a final template for content transfer
Moon Adamant: and that perhaps could be discussed by the RA legitemately
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes… there are 2 on the forums, pick one 🙂
Moon Adamant: there are actually 3Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw perhaps, yes…
Moon Adamant: i posted myself a version of a contract that doesn’t transfer IP, only grants a license
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah fine…
Moon Adamant: thinking that perhaps it would be easier to solve the issue by that
Moon Adamant: seeing we wouldn’t need to bother with International blah blah IP rights
Michel Manen: who would the licence be given to exactly?
Moon Adamant: and bring the matter then to only a contractual level
Patroklus Murakami: again. this feels like an exec issue. is it coming here because there has been no movement on the RAs decision?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye Pat
Moon Adamant: the situation is indeed stopped
Michel Manen: well i think we needto move on tih soon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: MIchel: I would say “the gov. of the CDS”
Moon Adamant: and Michel: there was some discussion as regards that, which i think may have become inconclusive as well
Publius Crabgrass: I’m not sure I understand what you want us to do, Moon? Approve a form of IP rights assignment or license?
Moon Adamant: not knowing if the EO would keep the backups, an archive avatar
Brian Livingston: I would think it would fall to the office of the Exec in terms of assigning hte license
Publius Crabgrass: Or just push the Chancellor to do something?
Patroklus Murakami: yes. i’m not clear waht we’re being asked to do
Brian Livingston: Err, holdign the license
Moon Adamant: at the following of the UQuake, it was even suggested that the guildemeister would keep the backups
Michel Manen: well if we approve a transfer form and who the licence will be given to it can move foreard
Michel Manen: and also who will keep backups
Moon Adamant: well, i am asking that the RA reopens this discussion
Michel Manen: i support that porposal
Moon Adamant: for instance, if there is need for an archive avatar, surely the ra must regulate it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is the RA Archivist, though,….
Patroklus Murakami: could the New Guild post a proposal on the forums?
Michel Manen: persosnally i think the RA should delegate this to the guild as the most ompetent organisation to deal with this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmmm
Moon Adamant: Pat, the new guild can
Michel Manen: yes
Jon Seattle: For those who do not remember the whole UZ issue, this is very important to resolve.
Patroklus Murakami: i feel the need for something clear to consider in writing
Justice Soothsayer: That sounds like a good Idea Pat.
Michel Manen: justice can you word this plz?
Moon Adamant: but mind that this is an issue previous to the new guild, that involves private builders and the SPC
Gwyneth Llewelyn: retrospectively deciding things? hmmMichel Manen: so we can vote before leaving?
Moon Adamant: nevertheless
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the RA *could* delegate in the *future* to the NG
Moon Adamant: the new guild will also need to consider this issue for its activities, so we would like to know the official standing
Justice Soothsayer: I’m sorry, folks, but I am just about at my time limit.
Michel Manen: the RA resolves that the Guild is the appropriate organ to develop an IP trights issue proposal for its consideration
Justice Soothsayer: Can we leave this with the notion to Moon that the New Guild should make suggestions as what to do next?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm ok
Justice Soothsayer: Those who read the transcripts will see that we have reopened the conversation, and may chime in.
Michel Manen: yes justice
Patroklus Murakami: let’s have a proposal for consideration on the forums
Michel Manen: good so the ball is now in the guilds court
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Michel Manen: at least it ca n move on it
Justice Soothsayer: hi FRC, just in time to watch us adjourn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: was there a vote? 😉
Michel Manen: lol wow the sc may soon have a quorum!
Flyingroc Chung: yay
Justice Soothsayer: And boy are we all glad to see you!
Jon Seattle: Hi FR 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi FR 🙂
Flyingroc Chung: hey
Patroklus Murakami: hi FR. good to see u
Flyingroc Chung: thanks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: naah Michel, FR left the SC…
Michel Manen: so moon are you ok with this?
Flyingroc Chung: <-- joe q citizen
Michel Manen: oh i forgot.... damn....
Moon Adamant: well, i can try to find out the proposals for templates
Moon Adamant: so they can be considered together
Michel Manen: good
Moon Adamant: will the RA vote a definite template?
Michel Manen: as well as bsackups and al lthat
Moon Adamant: mind that i don't recall exactly now
Michel Manen: well it will vote on what the guild will propose
Moon Adamant: what was the exact contents of the act passed last year
Justice Soothsayer: Depends on what is proposed, I think.
Justice Soothsayer: all the bills are on the wiki
Patroklus Murakami: i'm afraid i must go soon
Justice Soothsayer: me too - I'll take that as a motion to adjourn, Pat.
Patroklus Murakami: :)Moon Adamant: ok, we will see if we can sum up all the proposals and discussion
Michel Manen: great
Justice Soothsayer: Any objection to adjourning?
Publius Crabgrass: No
Patroklus Murakami: no. bye all
Justice Soothsayer: We're adjourned.
Michel Manen: no. btw Moon Utarid & Springvale deal with IP rights.. maybe a chat with them would help
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks for coming, everyone.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye :))
Publius Crabgrass: Bye all.
Michel Manen: thank you for a well run and productive meeting Justice
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, Michel.
Justice Soothsayer: we did OK without an agenda!
Moon Adamant: ah good idea Michel
Moon Adamant: i'll try to get an opinion
The meeting closed at 16:31 Linden time.
RA Meeting: April 29, 2007
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: The agenda is in the dispeser already.
Michel Manen: lol
Claude Desmoulins can’t type today.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s get started
Patroklus Murakami: yes, lets’
Claude Desmoulins: First let me welcome to the RA Beathan Vale.
Sudane Erato: great!! 🙂
Beathan Vale: thanks
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan replaces Publius Crabgrass representing the SP.
Justice Soothsayer: hello
Patroklus Murakami: oh right. you’re the new simpleton? welcome!
Justice Soothsayer: congrats, Beathan
Sudane Erato: hehe
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Publius resigned this week due to RL committments.
Sudane Erato: yes… congrats!
Beathan Vale: lol ;p
Claude Desmoulins: The agenda is in the dispenser.
Claude Desmoulins: Please touch the recorder.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: First… reports.
Sudane Erato: no special report on the money front
Claude Desmoulins: Other reports?
Patroklus Murakami: none from me
Justice Soothsayer: any word fromthe Chancellor about rescheduling our meeting with her?
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: She has finals this week, but suggested Thursday the 3rd at 7 pm slt might be workable for her.
Claude Desmoulins: How many RA folk could make that?
Patroklus Murakami: i won’t be able to make that. too late for me
Michel Manen: i could
Beathan Vale: I could
Justice Soothsayer: I could, earlier would be OK too, but I suspect she wont be available early enough for Pat.
Claude Desmoulins: I can if the kids go to sleep on time and I remember 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll contact her and schedule for 7 pm Thursday in the Rathaus.
Claude Desmoulins: Any other reports?
Claude Desmoulins: Seeing none.
Claude Desmoulins: Publius was chairing the code reorganization committee.
Claude Desmoulins: The process had bogged down.
Pelanor Eldrich: Will Brian be taking that over?
Claude Desmoulins: Someone needs to take the aton on this.
Claude Desmoulins: *baton
Pelanor Eldrich: I can volunteer, but I’m not in the RA so can’t chair.
Beathan Vale: I can chair
Claude Desmoulins: Any objections to Beathan taking that over?
Patroklus Murakami: i second beathan
Justice Soothsayer: OK with me
Beathan Vale: but I’m not fully up to speed — but I have been monitoring
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll try to remember to forward what I have.
Claude Desmoulins: Don’t forget, please, to touch the recorder.
Claude Desmoulins: Now 5-9 amendment. We have two proposals on the table.
Claude Desmoulins: Pat…
Claude Desmoulins: am I correct that….
Claude Desmoulins: …you believe any non citizen wishing to become one ought to have to purchase an individual lot?
Claude Desmoulins: And there he went.
Claude Desmoulins: PAt did you hear my question?
Patroklus Murakami: no. crashed
Claude Desmoulins: Am I correct that you believe any non citizen wishing to become one ought to have to purchase an individual lot?
Patroklus Murakami: that’s the current law NL 5-9
Michel Manen: I want to say a brief word on these amendments. I read them, as well as the forum discusisons on them that have been going on for a while now.
Michel Manen: Both these amendments are profoundly antidemocratic, anti-immigration, xenophobic, status quo and oligarchy-enhancing, anti-private business, destructive onf civil society and a KGB-like interference in the private matters of citizens ad groups. In short, they embody the most despicable and abhorrent trends of this community and I will virulently opose them.
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: my!
Justice Soothsayer: other than that, they’re OK?
Michel Manen: yup
Sudane Erato: haha
Claude Desmoulins: And you believe it ought to remain this way?
Patroklus Murakami: LOL
Pelanor Eldrich: Don’t sit on the fence, tell us how you really feel.
Beathan Vale: so — you are lukewarm on the amendments then, MM? 😉
Sudane Erato: LOL
Michel Manen: yes im thinking about it beth
Patroklus Murakami: yes Claude i do. the requirement is a very important one. for reasons that i’ve outlined on the forums
Claude Desmoulins: If that’t the case and we decide to keep the individual lot first requirement…
Patroklus Murakami: i have yet to see a reason why we need to change this and why we need to open up citizenship in such an unrestrained way
Claude Desmoulins: ….why not simplify things, esp. for Sudane by not allowing group land to be the basis of any avatar’s citizenship.
Justice Soothsayer: I agree with Pat that citizens ought to have stake in CDS through an individual stake; but I do think we could allow citizens to hold land in common ownership.
Patroklus Murakami: that means repealing 5-9 claude, which would be a step back. we passed 5-9 for good reasons. to allow couples and groups to own land in common
Claude Desmoulins: No I don’t think so Pat.
Patroklus Murakami: but it complicates matters. we just need to find a way to deal with that complication. sudanes’ amendment, which i support, woudl do that for us
Claude Desmoulins: We could allow common ownership, but not citizenship from common land.
Beathan Vale: I tend to favor allowing citizenship through group ownership — but I don’t understand why state a particular number of citizen spots per group as opposed to per land quantum
Patroklus Murakami: then u force everyone to own their own land – why do that if a couple just want to own a home togethere?
Claude Desmoulins: But they already had to own their own land to become citizens inthe first place.
Pelanor Eldrich: Also, be sure to address the grandfathering or the retroactive enforcement.
Claude Desmoulins: Good point Pel
Patroklus Murakami: yes, as do all other citizens. NL 5-9 gives them the option of merging holdings after they come to the CDS. if they form a partnership here, for example
Pelanor Eldrich: Imagine trying to disenfranchise current citizens.
Michel Manen: ah yes that most democratic of all tools.. retroactive enforecemnt
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should allow couples to purchase land as well as individuals? that would solve a lot of the problems with this issue
Beathan Vale: SL has a partnership function — so that should not create confusion
Claude Desmoulins: That’s quite a bit of overhead for allowing citizens who already own lad to share a house? Now there’s an interesting option.
Claude Desmoulins: partners/couples, that is
Beathan Vale: but we would have to consider what to do in the event of SL divorce
Delia Lake: Question. if a husband and wife want to buy land and build a home together in the CDS, and it happens as is the case sometimes, that there is only one plot available, then only one of them would be a citizen even if they both paid on it?
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we should find a way to ‘regularise’ the status of any citizens who joined the CDS (in good faith) but are technically not following NL 5-9. but that’s a separate issue
Claude Desmoulins: Coming soon CDS divorce court 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: If the plot was big enough they could both be.
Delia Lake: this triggers some bad memories of rl conditions in the USA 25 yrs ago
Michel Manen: why just couples? why not three ro four or five people households? and why not business partners?
Sudane Erato: also, many partners cannot, for various reasons, avail themselves of the SL partnership system
Michel Manen: how far will we intrude in the bedrooms of our citizens?
Beathan Vale: or polygamists
Patroklus Murakami: sudane, do we get many groups wanting to come and join en bloc?
Sudane Erato: no
Michel Manen: how much control will we exert on the private lives of individuals?
Sudane Erato: none to my knowledge, except perhaps the esperantists
Justice Soothsayer: the only dilemmna with group ownership of land is because land=citizenship, and we don’t want large landowners to come with large groups of new citizens.
Beathan Vale: but we are not marketing to groups — we could see a change there with the right approach
Michel Manen: whose morality will we impose? whose values?
Patroklus Murakami: well, let’s not get too far away from what NL 5-9 was intended to achieve then
Patroklus Murakami: it’s not about morality michel. that’s not the issue at all
Pelanor Eldrich: I think part of the aim of this is to avoid the old Roman situation where a Patrician senator had a pile of freeloading plebian clientes who did nothing but vote for the boss.
Patroklus Murakami: back to the issue about needing to be a citizen first. claude, why do yoiu want to change this?
Sudane Erato: sounds like the new york city soituation 🙂
Michel Manen: this hasnt happened and is not going to. it s a red herring and scare crow issue
Beathan Vale: Chicago — the plebes don’t even have to be alive
Sudane Erato: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: So that couples or small partnerships (for example, Utarid and Springvale) can join CDS together,
Beathan Vale: actually — hasn’t there been an election in which the trick was played?
Beathan Vale: with microplots?
Claude Desmoulins: rather than joining separately, then selling a lot.
Beathan Vale: before my time — old timers?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, beathan. that was an issue previously
Sudane Erato: no… there were just accusations of that
Sudane Erato: but i think they were unfounded
Patroklus Murakami: admissions actually sudane 🙂
Beathan Vale: well — did the micro-citizens stay longterm after the election?
Sudane Erato: there are still a few]
Patroklus Murakami: i believe some did and some didn’t. we repealed the microplot act shortly after (or rather the then RA did)
Claude Desmoulins: Pat did I answer your question?
Patroklus Murakami: on your point claude, would you be happier if couple could join as well as individuals?
Claude Desmoulins: I think that would addres most of the actual cases where this has been an issue.
Beathan Vale: Pat — I agree — we can start there at least
Michel Manen: its all about controlwhy just couples? why this abhorrent police state interference?
Patroklus Murakami: the problem with allowing current groiups to simply recruit new citizens at one per 128m2 is that we lay ourselves wide open to electoral manipulation
Claude Desmoulins: That comes back to the idea of a limit on the number of citizens who can tie citizenship to a group owned parcel.
Patroklus Murakami: michel, there’s no interference. just an attempt to tackle a real social problem
Justice Soothsayer: I seem to remember some discussion in the last election about using group ownership to allow citizenship for starving artisans.
Michel Manen: has electoral manipulation happened? is there any prospect of it happening? is this realy the most pressing issue this community is facing?
Claude Desmoulins: And Michel makes a good point about there being not a particularly good reason to distinguish philosophically between couples, trios, quartets, etc.
Patroklus Murakami: yes, electoral manipulation has happened. yes, there is a very real prospect of it happening if this act is passed
Beathan Vale: Claude — but there is a good practical reason — SL recognizes couples, not trios or quartets
Sudane Erato: SL recognizes gropups of any size
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Beathan, SL also recognizes groups.
Beathan Vale: true — but an av can be a member of multiple groups — only one partnership
Justice Soothsayer: and the group tools are a lot more robust now, could allow all sorts of partnering arrangments
Pelanor Eldrich: There’s no proof of it having happened, however it’s difficult to prove if it ever happened. The best solution is to provide a citizenship framework which makes it difficult to manipulate elections.
Michel Manen: it is just a scare crow nightmare dream in the minds of some individuals who have nothing better to do than dream up security theats which dodnt exist and use those in order to instill fear in the rest of us and thus strngthen their own positions.. the tactic is well known and has been used both historically and currently iRL
Beathan Vale: if we have group citizenship, we need to address both the issues of nominal citizenship and vote manipulation and potential plural citizenship
Beathan Vale: MM — it is a real risk
Claude Desmoulins: I’ll agree with you Beathan that a couples provision would address from a practical standpoint the cases in which strict enforcement of 5-9 as it now stands has been a difficulty for new citizens.
Beathan Vale: importing voters has also been used in SL and RL to manipulate elections
Patroklus Murakami: there is a philosophical distinction between coumichel, your argument is almost entirely self-serving given your own extensive land holdings and your desire for political power. really, you should recuse youself for the vote on this issue
Justice Soothsayer: It does not seem to be too onerous a requirement to ask that a citizen own 128m2 initially.
Michel Manen: hahaha…. so now we’re getting to the root of this…. why didnt you say so from the start pat?
Claude Desmoulins: If there a sutiably small lots available.
Claude Desmoulins: *are suitably.
Patroklus Murakami: do the math…
Pelanor Eldrich: Wow, this is starting to get ugly. Let’s all agree that citzenship is grandfathered and that we’re not pointing fingers at the past but trying to bulid the future.
Claude Desmoulins: If a citizen must own their own lot initially, what’s the real benefit of allowing citizenship from group lots?
Beathan Vale: citizenship is grandfathered — I think that should be an easy question
Justice Soothsayer: Group ownership has a lot of advantages; prim sharing etc.
Patroklus Murakami: aargh! claude, it’s to allow ppl to join together to realise larger project aims e.g. church or voluntary groups
Claude Desmoulins: But you could have all that on group lots without citizenship coming from those lots.
Patroklus Murakami: it allows ppl to pool resources
Beathan Vale: I don’t see the benefit from the buy-in requirement — why can’t a person just stuff the voter roles by buying and selling a single 128 lot through a series of new client citizens?
Justice Soothsayer: it;s a hurdle, admittedly a small one, Beathan
Claude Desmoulins: Make them keep their individual lots, let them use the group lot for their cultural center or what not, and de link group land from citizenship.
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, there are ways to manipulate the current system. but even then there is a hurdle which we should only remove with great care 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: why claude? what purpose does that serve?
Claude Desmoulins: There are several group owned lots now on which no citizen relies for his/her citizenship
Claude Desmoulins: Then we don’t have to mess with prorated group fees and lists to Sudane , etc.
Beathan Vale: Why not just say — 2 citizens per lot, provided they are partners or members of the same group — if the group as more than 2 members, the group must designate its citizen members
Claude Desmoulins: The well though out, but nonetheless elaborate system in your proposal.
Claude Desmoulins: *thought
Beathan Vale: I thought the proposal said up to 5 cits per group
Claude Desmoulins: There are two proposals on the agenda.
Michel Manen: we should encurage more people to join us – not put unreasonable and xenophobic restrictions on entry!!
Patroklus Murakami: i accept the second proposal is more detailed. but sudane was responsible for the drafting. perhaps we could ask sudane to speak to the proposal?
Beathan Vale: anyone who wants to join the CDS can join — where is the xenophobia?
Sudane Erato: folks… please remember… that the real issue here is the fundamental definition of citizenship
Sudane Erato: what does citizenship mean?
Claude Desmoulins: The benefits of group land that I hear people discuss (prim sharing, etc>) seem to not be about citizenship.
Claude Desmoulins: So why not let group land be about those things and not about who are the citizens rooted on this group parcel.
Patroklus Murakami: that’s right claude. the benefits of the Group Land Ownership Act are about enabling collective projects to be realised in the CDS without sacrificing citizenship
Beathan Vale: well — I see the benefit of expanding citizenship to people who will be active — even if they do not have the RL financial resources to buy-in and maintain a parcel
Claude Desmoulins: But current law requires them to buy in individually.
Michel Manen: i agree with Beathan
Sudane Erato: the fee to maintain a small parcel is US$1/month
Sudane Erato: not very much
Pelanor Eldrich: I think Bethan is referring to sponsoring guild craftsmen.
Patroklus Murakami: yes claude. and once they have bought in individually they are free to form partnerships or larger groups and hold land in common
Beathan Vale: Pel — or others who will be active in the CDS
Beathan Vale: event sponsors — active retailers –etc.
Claude Desmoulins: Yes but let thatland just be about land.
Patroklus Murakami: beathan. up until now we have always insisted that, whatever ppl contribute to our community, they must also purchase land and pay towards our monthly fees
Claude Desmoulins: What is the benefit of allowing citizens to tie their citizenhip to a group parcel?
Beathan Vale: Pat — yes — and that seems oligarchic to me — plutocratic even — certainly not social democratic
Claude Desmoulins: Separate from the benefits of sharing land (prims etc.)
Patroklus Murakami: if we change that it is a fundamental change to CDS society and needs careful thought. when we’ve considered having ‘landless’ citizens before we’ve always rejected the idea
Beathan Vale: Pat — very right
Patroklus Murakami: hehe. SL produces some funny paradoxes, eh?
Pelanor Eldrich: Yeah, my “landless citizen” with a $L tax went over like a Led Zeppelin.
Patroklus Murakami: 🙂
Sudane Erato: hehe
Michel Manen: too bad pel
Claude Desmoulins: I still don’t understand something,
Claude Desmoulins: If one is already a citizen what is the benefit of moving one’s citizenship to a group parcel as opposed to holding on to the individual 128m2?
Patroklus Murakami: claude, you get to merge you holdings with your significant other to build a bigger home together. or you merge your holdings with five friends to build a mosque. those are examples of the potential benefits. i doubt i will want to use them, but they are there for those who do
Claude Desmoulins: and adding the group parcel on top of that?
Claude Desmoulins: So let people do group lots but make theem keep their 128m2
Patroklus Murakami: well, you could collectively buy a larger plot and then sell your starter home to save money.
Claude Desmoulins: And the overhead of managing this is worth letting people save 1-2 dollars a month…oops reverse those two.
Patroklus Murakami: that way you retain citizenship through the group but don’t need to hold onto ‘useless’ land i.e. land you only keep to maintain CDS membership
Patroklus Murakami: well, it also frees up land for other citizens (and new citizens) to use
Patroklus Murakami: if we insist ppl keep their own plot as well, there is less land available for new citizens
Pelanor Eldrich: We’ve always tied citizenship to land. Citizens pay a monthly fee for land and a prim allotment. Having said that, I don’t really understand the attraction and function of 128m residential plots in SL. People are better off enjoying large builds and large sandboxes to work, but that’s just me I guess.
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan? any other thoughts?
Pelanor Eldrich: It’s not like RL.
Beathan Vale: Pel — I agree
Michel Manen: i agree with pel too
Beathan Vale: I would accept a 2 cits per 512 or larger lot rule — 1 cit for smaller lots
Patroklus Murakami: smaller lots act as an ‘entry point’ for people curious about the CDS. my first plot was a small one 🙂 and look how that turned out!
Beathan Vale: that seems like a modest and incremental move
Beathan Vale: see how it works — expand it later if it is working
Beathan Vale: but I think the individual lot buy-in rule is silly
Patroklus Murakami: beathan – do you mean to join the CDS?
Michel Manen: claude we have 4 minutes left.. are you calling a vote?
Claude Desmoulins: Could we work on a couples provision and a grandfather since we agree on those?
Beathan Vale: Pat — yes
Beathan Vale: and as long as tier is paid, I don’t really care who pays it
Patroklus Murakami: sure. happy to work on that
Michel Manen: i agree beathan re payment
Claude Desmoulins: I’d rather table and come back next week as there seem to be a couple of areas of broad agreememnt not addressed in either current proposal.
Patroklus Murakami: there’s also some good points in teh second proposal that need to be included too though
Beathan Vale: this does raise the possibility of hijack by a wealthy person
Patroklus Murakami: for example that ppl need to pay their share themselves and that one citizen=one avatar=one RL person
Claude Desmoulins: IS hijack 2 at a time that different from hijack one at a time.
Michel Manen: its not goign to happen Beathan…..
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Claude Desmoulins: I withdraw my bill, let’s work with Pat/Sudane’s
Beathan Vale: Claude — yes, it is harder and slower
Claude Desmoulins: Can we table?
Claude Desmoulins: Two minutes to address a foreign relations crisis.
Patroklus Murakami: sure. i’m happy to work with others to refine the proposal. just IM me
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: :0
Claude Desmoulins: As you have likely heard Port Neualtenburg and Caledon are at war 🙁
Michel Manen: they made peace yeasterday
Michel Manen: they had a big reuinion ball
Sudane Erato: do we care?
Michel Manen: i was there
Beathan Vale: Kendra was kidnapped this morning, yes?
Michel Manen: ah what?/
Patroklus Murakami: yes, kendra posted on our forums today
Patroklus Murakami: asking for our help
Michel Manen: lol
Beathan Vale: she is being held in Caledon — at least as of 5am this morning
Michel Manen: why?
Michel Manen: thats too funny
Claude Desmoulins: I personally believe a policy of strict neutrality serves the CDS the best.
Michel Manen: aye
Sudane Erato: i agree
Beathan Vale: Strict neutrality with an announcement that we recognize Caledon, but consider Port Neualtenburg to be a rogue state?
Patroklus Murakami: but CDS freedome fighters are not under this govenment’s control
Michel Manen: hahahaha
Claude Desmoulins: Does someone wish to draft a bill for next session or do we want to take extraordinary steps and pass something today?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Michel Manen: no just a simple resolution declaring strivt neutrality
Beathan Vale: Pat — forming an Abraham Lincoln brigade to fight agaisnt Calefonian hostility?
Patroklus Murakami: no, it’s a bit of fun. but refreshingly light-hearted given the history…
Patroklus Murakami: hehe!
Claude Desmoulins: Do we need to do that resolution today?
Delia Lake: yes, and a bit astonishing
Beathan Vale: I see it now — Claude’s re-election motto — “he kept us out of war”
Michel Manen: well claude its one sentence
Sudane Erato: hehe
Patroklus Murakami: no, democracy is notoriously slow. we should think about a resolution when kendra’s been holed up for a week for two!
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps establish a virtual UN first, so it can twiddle its thumbs for us?
Beathan Vale: how about announce strict neutrality, deplore hostage taking, and request a restoration of amicable relations
Michel Manen: The CDS , though its elected body, the RA, declares that it is CDS policy to adopt a poistion of strict neutrality and non-interference between conflicts involving foreign powers.
Beathan Vale: MM — too much — I don’t want to tie our hands like that
Patroklus Murakami: you know, fun thought this is. i don’t think we should really get involved officially in play-acting diplomacy
Patroklus Murakami: if ppl want to do that off their own initiative, so be it
Claude Desmoulins: Submit your draft resolutions for next week.
Claude Desmoulins: If you wish
Beathan Vale: kk
Michel Manen: ok
Claude Desmoulins: We’re out of time.
Michel Manen: thank you all
Claude Desmoulins: Any objection to adjournment?
Patroklus Murakami: no
Michel Manen: nay
Claude Desmoulins: We are adjourned until Thursday at 7 pm in the Rathaus.
The meeting closed at 13:05 Linden time.RA Meeting: May 13, 2007
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 165, 41)
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Beathan Vale: brb
Justice Soothsayer: np
Beathan Vale: back
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Pat
Patroklus Murakami: hi justice, beathan 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Mizou was here a minute ago; I understand she is the new CARE member
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i think that’s right
Beathan Vale: yep
Beathan Vale: brb
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Mizou Vavoom: good evening
Patroklus Murakami: hi mizou. good evening
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Mizou
Mizou Vavoom: where shall i sit?
Justice Soothsayer: anyplace you’d like
Justice Soothsayer: Claude gave me a copy of the agenda, but I don’t seem to be able to add it to the dispenser on the table, so I’m giving it to each of you individually.
Patroklus Murakami: wow. fairly packed agenda 🙂
Mizou Vavoom: thkx
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Bromo
Beathan Vale: I have nothing to report yet — still reading up on Code revision
Bromo Ivory: Hello – I just bought land in NFS this weekend!@
Beathan Vale: thinking about how to organize Code by topic so that it is searchable
Justice Soothsayer: wlecome, Bromo, glad to have you join us.
Patroklus Murakami: hi bromo. welcome to teh CDS 🙂
Bromo Ivory: 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: Everyone, please touch the recorder on the table to indicate consent to recording.
Beathan Vale: and I’m not sure who else is on committee — anyone know?
Mizou Vavoom: welcome bromo
Beathan Vale: hi Bromo
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi guys
Beathan Vale: hi TOP
Patroklus Murakami: nope, sorry beathan
Beathan Vale: lol
Mizou Vavoom: hi top
Patroklus Murakami: hi TOP
Justice Soothsayer: I think Publius said he was willing to continue to help
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hi Mizou 🙂
Beathan Vale: OK
Mizou Vavoom: hi Delia
Beathan Vale: hi Delia
Justice Soothsayer: We need to welcome the talented Mizou Vavoom to the RA, succeeding Michel.
Mizou Vavoom: 🙂
Delia Lake: hi Beathan
Patroklus Murakami: indeed. welcome to the RA, Mizou 🙂
Mizou Vavoom: thkx
Beathan Vale: yep — welcome Mizou — hi Delia
Justice Soothsayer: I’m leading today in Claude absence, and thanks everyone for accomodating me in delaying this due to mother’s day.
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry I couldn’t be here sooner.
Patroklus Murakami: np:)
Justice Soothsayer: So, Beathan, nothing else to report on the Code as yet, right?
Beathan Vale: right
Beathan Vale: still getting my legs under me on that one
Justice Soothsayer: So let’s move on to the first bill, Sale of Undeveloped Area.
Justice Soothsayer: The Area Formerly Known as Altenburg.
Justice Soothsayer: Any discussion?
Patroklus Murakami: there’s one bit i don’t understand about this proposal. why the requirement ‘will only be sold to prospective citizens with a maximum of one per person’
TOPGenosse Brouwer: wb Pel
Justice Soothsayer: hmm, not sure. probably just to make sure that the lots go to the largest possible number of people interested, I suppose.
Beathan Vale: Hi Pel
Patroklus Murakami: does that mean current citizens are not allowed to buy these plots?
Justice Soothsayer: yes, that’s the way I read it, it would be limited to newcomers.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: yes I wrote that bill
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Beathan Vale: I think it is an attempt to use the resale to enourage immigration
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi All
Mizou Vavoom: hi Pel
Patroklus Murakami: hi pel 🙂
Bromo Ivory: How will we determine prospective citizens? They express interest in purchase and there is no suitable traditional parcel?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: that’s right: only for new/prospective citizens –> to allow the max. number of new people into the CDS … since Michel put his NFS plots on sale there have been at least 3 new buyers so there’s certainly demand … But on the other hand, I don’t think Ali is re-parceling the area YET so there’s no hurry with the bill
Patroklus Murakami: presumaby bromo. only for new ppl
TOPGenosse Brouwer: In other words: to put *opportunities* for new CDS-ers above *more land* for existing citizens
Bromo Ivory: What happens when the new SIM opens?
Mizou Vavoom: sounds ggod
Mizou Vavoom: good
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Bromo > then the bill/act will expire
Justice Soothsayer: these lots are only for sale until the 3rd sim opens up
Bromo Ivory: I mean to the plots once bought?
Patroklus Murakami: if there’s no hurry i’d like to give it some thought. i agree with encouraging new citizens to join us but doesn’t it set a strange precedent to restrict sales so that current citizens can’t purchase them?
Beathan Vale: but perhaps we should allow exceptions for current citizens who have a demonstrated need for more prims —
Justice Soothsayer: ah, they would still be owned by whoever buys them
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Sounds good Beathan
Beathan Vale: I understand that a claimed prim shortage led to the protest against CARE
Mizou Vavoom: yes Beathan i second that
Justice Soothsayer: hard to differentiate between “needs” more prims and “wants” more prims
Mizou Vavoom: hmmm
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I won’t mind if you want to discuss it more .. but I’d like to put it to more creative use than just existing citizens buying up more land.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m sorry to be difficult but why should a current citizen have to meet a higher restriction ‘needs more prims’ than a newcomer? it seems unfair
Beathan Vale: TOP — I agree as a general rule — but I am also mindful of Jeremy Bender’s request for more prims — although he is in CN, not Neuf
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Pat > It wouldn’t surprise me if in some months there will be very few plots left .. why not leave those few in the Undeveloped area for prospective/new citizens?
Bromo Ivory: As a newcomer I was overjoyed that I was able to become a member – and I ended up with 77, which is tight for me, but I can live with it easily if this berings more people to CDS
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I agree, Beathan
Bromo Ivory: (meaning others get the same chance)
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Please discuss it some more and move on with the agenda. I”m not even a citizen so I can’t legally submit bills! 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: I’m not sure we want to segregate newbies into one area, which might be a result.
Beathan Vale: Pat — I think that we have a dual policy in play here — 1. put land to beneficial use and 2. encourage immigration
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Unless Ali is sponsoring this one
Justice Soothsayer: Ali is listed as sponsor of this one, TOP.
Beathan Vale: it is not unfair given this dual purpose — would only be unfair if we did not have the second purpose
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Justice: No newbies can buy *everything*, oldbies just can’t buy Altenburg plots
Beathan Vale: hmmm — a newbie Ghetto? that would be bad
Patroklus Murakami: i understand teh motivation. i agree with it, to some extent. but it seems like unnecessary social engineering. why can’t the plots be available to anyone who wants them?
Mizou Vavoom: is oy yo encourage new members
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Yes, — What will happen if the plots run out when the 3rd sim isn’t open yet?? Will we just tell people to wait a few months? Of course you could only vote FOR it, if you think land will be in short supply .. — maybe it won’t be ..
Delia Lake: i also think we need to encourage new people to buy plots in NFS and become citizens
Patroklus Murakami: another way to encourage new members would be to forbid people from owning more than one parcel. do we think that would be a good idea?
Pelanor Eldrich: Land (m2), prims, and script execution cycles per second are the main “raw materials” of SL. We need them available if we want to do anything more than use SL to buy stuff and IM people.
Mizou Vavoom: yes certainly
Beathan Vale: TOP — right — we need to make a policy choice to avoid being completely full
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Beathan: “Ghetto” –> people can still submit re-parceling plans to Aliasi, so it can be a mixed bag of plots
Beathan Vale: if we do not have plots available for newbies — we need to have some alternative method (even a temporary method) for becoming a citizen
TOPGenosse Brouwer: true ..
Mizou Vavoom: an apartment building?
Justice Soothsayer: with several plots for sale these days, I’m not sure that we have a plot shortage.
Beathan Vale: TOP — I was using “Ghetto” in the sense of a Jewish neighborhood apart — not in the sense of a slum
Mizou Vavoom: rentals?
TOPGenosse Brouwer nods
Patroklus Murakami: that sounds like a discussion for later beathan, under citizenship 🙂
Bromo Ivory: There are 5 plots for sale. I was told that “there wsn’t much expressed interest”
Beathan Vale: Pat — true — but the policy is in play now too
Bromo Ivory: I bought 1
Beathan Vale: Bromo — hmmm …
Justice Soothsayer: Is it fair to say that we all think the AFKAA should be redeveloped for sale?
Beathan Vale: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes, justice
Mizou Vavoom: yes
Pelanor Eldrich: AFKAA?
Delia Lake has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: (Area Formerly Known As Alternburg)
Beathan Vale: unless we want an Ulrika/Ashcroft/Michel triumvirate memorial park 😉
Justice Soothsayer: heh
Mizou Vavoom: 🙂
Bromo Ivory: I would reserve at least some
Pelanor Eldrich: Beathan, Michel is still with us.
Patroklus Murakami: i’m opposed to reserving it for newcomers, no matter how well-intentioned that is, it sets a bad precedent
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Pat > Didn’t brian brainstorm about something like: relocated ‘evicted’/moved Platz-shopowners there? You can do all sorts of creative stuff with it.
Beathan Vale: Pel — isn’t he selling off his lots?
Pelanor Eldrich: I don’t know about that.
Mizou Vavoom: only on NFS
Beathan Vale: ah — OK
Beathan Vale: good
Patroklus Murakami: but reserving ‘half’ would be an acceptable compromise 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: politics is the art of teh possible after all
Mizou Vavoom: what is th esize of that area?
Justice Soothsayer: though still precedent setting, pat.
Beathan Vale: I would second a half-way plan
Patroklus Murakami: true. i’m just trying to be conciliatory 🙂
TOPGenosse Brouwer: 2400 sqm, excl. road and excl. area below Schloss balcony
Mizou Vavoom: and divided into how any plots?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I divided into 5 ‘boring’ plots: 3 x 55 prim, 2 x 75 prim .. something like that ..
Mizou Vavoom: hmm not much to contend with
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (keeping the cute bridge, but it can be removed)
Justice Soothsayer: How about this for an amended bill:
Justice Soothsayer: “Parcels in the ‘undeveloped area’ (formerly known as ‘Altenburg’ area) SHOULD BE REDEVELOPED FOR SALE WITH ONE HALF RESERVED FOR prospective citizens with a maximum of one per person. This act will expire when parcels from the third CDS sim go on sale to the general public.”
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (55 prims is not much but at least better than those sparton 33 prims on the Platz .. or 44 on Michel’s former NFS plots ..)
Justice Soothsayer: (new language in all CAPS)
Mizou Vavoom: ok
Patroklus Murakami: that works for me, justice
Beathan Vale: Justice — good
Justice Soothsayer: are we ready to vote?
Bromo Ivory: I like it
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Beathan Vale: Sunset clauses are wise
Mizou Vavoom: ok
Justice Soothsayer: All in favor?
Mizou Vavoom: yes
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Bromo Ivory: yes
Beathan Vale: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Aye
Justice Soothsayer: Bromo, you get an opinion, not a vote!
Bromo Ivory: (I just bought land)
Bromo Ivory: (But OK)
Beathan Vale: Bromo — republican representative democracy — this is like a Congress
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Thanks for supporting this, reps 🙂
Bromo Ivory: (I see, sorry got carried away!)
Beathan Vale: np
Justice Soothsayer: np
Mizou Vavoom: 🙂
Beathan Vale: good to see interest and enthusiasm
Pelanor Eldrich: (You didn’t win a seat in the last RA election, but feel free to run for next session).
Justice Soothsayer: Next item: Citizenship Commission.
Justice Soothsayer: Pat has a substitute bill which Claude has placed on the agenda ahead of Michel’s.
Beathan Vale: I like Pat’s bill as written
Justice Soothsayer: I like Pat’s as well, much cleaner
Patroklus Murakami: would u like me to introduce the bill?
Justice Soothsayer: Feel free to speak about it, Pat.
Patroklus Murakami: ty justice.
Patroklus Murakami: well, citizenship and how we define it, is an issue that has been around for some time.
Patroklus Murakami: i think michel’s idea of a citizenship commission has some merit. but his original bill was a bit too long and had too many contentious statements for my liking 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: this is a simplified version that does teh same job
Patroklus Murakami: i’m not a wholehearted supporter of a citizenship commission; it’s something i think we should agree to if we *really* feel there’s a need
Patroklus Murakami: and i’d like to nominate justice as chair!
Patroklus Murakami: that’s all
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Pat, but now I have to vote against the bill!
Beathan Vale: I think that we need to continue to explore the idea of CDS citizenship with a goal of encouraging immigration and participation
Patroklus Murakami: oh dear. we lost mizou 🙁
Beathan Vale: I’m not sure that a commission is the best method — but doing something is better than the alternative
Justice Soothsayer: I think having a commission will help gauge whether this is an important issue for the citizens, and I’m all for more public participation in the debates.
Justice Soothsayer: Fortunately, this should be less polarizing than the last commission — judiciary — as there don’t seem to be as sharply contrasting positions.
Pelanor Eldrich: I’d like to remind the RA that CARE summarily left the assembly because they were unsatisfied with amount of public consultation about this vitally important topic. Imagine redefining American citizenship, it’s a big topic requiring full transparency and public consultation.
Justice Soothsayer: welcome back, Mizou.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: wb Mizou
Patroklus Murakami: *cough* the last commission was ‘regional planning’, it was much less contentious than the judiciary commission
Justice Soothsayer: quite right, Pat.
Patroklus Murakami keeps schtum for a moment 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: schtum?
Patroklus Murakami: schtum = quiet
Justice Soothsayer: is there any other discussion?
Beathan Vale: Pat — so much for openness 😉
Pelanor Eldrich: /twiddles
Justice Soothsayer: Mizou seems to keep crashing
Patroklus Murakami: i’m trying not to react to pel’s analysis of why michel left teh RA. needless to say, i disagree with it 🙂
Beathan Vale: Pel — Michel’s explanation seems pretextual at best
Justice Soothsayer: 🙁
Beathan Vale: I’m having connection trouble to — might crash soon
Patroklus Murakami: perhaps not so helpful to get into right now?
Beathan Vale: and the SL site is having trouble — might be LL problem
TOPGenosse Brouwer: *cough* .. “NL 5-12 Cit. Involvement Act” —-> Commissions shall have at least 3 members …. That’s not really the case for the Reorganisation Commission, is it?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: but it’s not a perfect world 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: we should look at teh idea of a citizenship commission on its merits. and try to ignore some of the surrounding drama
Pelanor Eldrich: /nod
Justice Soothsayer: yes, let’s keep focus on the issues not the personalities
Beathan Vale: Pat — exactly — and the idea has a lot of merit
Beathan Vale: it would involve the citizens in the very essence of their own role in the CDS
Pelanor Eldrich: Fair elections and promoting immigration.
Patroklus Murakami: TOP. teh commission has other members as well as teh RA chair. the regional planning one had *lots* of participants
Beathan Vale: and would raise important additional issues on citizen control of govt, rights, immigration
Patroklus Murakami: i think we’re edging towards approval… but who will chair it? 🙂
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Pat > True .. I just hope the Code Reorg. Comm. can get some more people too .. it’s a good initiative, IMO.
Beathan Vale: Claude
Beathan Vale: he’s not here to say no
Justice Soothsayer: I’m actually in favor of the bill, Pat, but I don’t want to chair it.
Pelanor Eldrich: What about Mizou?
Justice Soothsayer: that will teach her to stop crashing 😉
Justice Soothsayer: ah, back in time to decline the job!
Mizou Vavoom: sorry crash!
Beathan Vale: Hi Mizou — we were just about to draft you to chari the citizen commission
Patroklus Murakami: wb mizou. your new colleagues are volunteering u for work while you’re safely out fof the way 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: not very friendly of us, i’m afraid.
Mizou Vavoom: which work ?
Pelanor Eldrich: To chair the citizenship commission.
Mizou Vavoom: oh?
Mizou Vavoom: hmmm
Justice Soothsayer: Bethan, Pat & I have all expressed support for Pat’s bill.
Mizou Vavoom: yes i i was going to say same
Mizou Vavoom: but to make me chair it lol
Bromo Ivory: The Bill Mentions Citizens might be able to participate??
Mizou Vavoom: am only new on the block
Beathan Vale: LOL — Mizou — same thing happened to me last week
Patroklus Murakami: oh yes, bromo. the whole idea is to encourage citizen participation
Beathan Vale: Bromo — yes – that’s the point —
Pelanor Eldrich: I know that CARE wanted the commission very much, I think it would be a good experience. Looks like Bruno already wants to participate. 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: sort of a hazing ritual for new RA members
Bromo Ivory: (9Then I want to volunteer))
Mizou Vavoom: ok well can i give my descion tomorrow/
Justice Soothsayer: and you already have your first member.
Bromo Ivory: 🙂
Pelanor Eldrich: 🙂
Mizou Vavoom: ok well a goof beginning
Mizou Vavoom: good :0
Justice Soothsayer: Someone needs to remind me, does the RA name the chair, or does Claude do it?
Patroklus Murakami searches for RA procedures…
Pelanor Eldrich: A chair is a chair is a chair…oh wait, that’s roses.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: heheh
Justice Soothsayer: well, Mizou, let’s vote on the bill first.
Patroklus Murakami: doesn’t really say. i think its for the RA to decide on teh chair
Pelanor Eldrichh
Justice Soothsayer: Then we can decide on the chair via email if necessary.
Mizou Vavoom: ok
Patroklus Murakami: ok
Justice Soothsayer: Any further discussion on Pat’s bill, or ar eyou ready to vote?
Mizou Vavoom: ready
Beathan Vale: rdy
Patroklus Murakami: ready
Justice Soothsayer: All in favor of Pat’s bill?
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Mizou Vavoom: tes
Mizou Vavoom: yes
Justice Soothsayer votes aye. The motion carries, 4-0.
Justice Soothsayer: I believe Pat’s bill was introduced as a substitute to Michel’s, so we can take Michel’s off the agenda.
Beathan Vale: yep
Mizou Vavoom: oki
Patroklus Murakami: i think that makes sense
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, does this also dispose of the Group Ownership bill for now, pending dicussion by the Commission?
Patroklus Murakami: i think it makes sense to put it on ice, pending the outcome of the commission
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Justice Soothsayer: So that brings us to Public Radio.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hm …. postponing an implementation of Sudane’s new payment system doesn’t sound like a good idea .. or will the Citenship Commission reach it’s results soon?
Patroklus Murakami: the implementation of the payment system can take place independently of the discussion. sudane pointed out that it was muddling up two issues
Justice Soothsayer: I don’t think that creating the commission on citizenship postpones implementing a new payment system.
Patroklus Murakami: one political and one administrative
Justice Soothsayer: but it might mean changes to the system later on, depending on what is decided. we’ll still need a way to collect $L.
Patroklus Murakami: hopefully something that makes sudane’s life easier….
Justice Soothsayer: As to radio, I’d like to discuss that one a bit more on the forums, and to suggest that the sponsor(s) might want to be present.
Mizou Vavoom: yes
Patroklus Murakami: i thought that drax was supposed to be coming to give a presentation on this?
Justice Soothsayer: I’m about at the end of my time this afternoon.
Pelanor Eldrich: I’ve IMed Michel
Patroklus Murakami: well, i’ve made my views clear on the forums. this is a great idea but perhaps too ambitious. i’d love to see someone start a CDS podcast tho
Pelanor Eldrich: Maybe we could ask for a document from Drax and some emailed Q&A
Patroklus Murakami: begin with baby steps and then build from there
Beathan Vale: I agree Pat
Justice Soothsayer: But I like that it is limited to matching funds, and only for a limited time.
Patroklus Murakami: yes justice. ‘up to’ $50/month is a lot for our community
Justice Soothsayer: indeed
Beathan Vale: I would prefer some non-cash match — such as donated land with a CDS tier payment of up to $50/month
Beathan Vale: otherwise, I want to see a cash-flow analysis
Beathan Vale: and a cost/benefit analysis
Beathan Vale: so far the benefits seem hazy
Beathan Vale: but the costs seem clear
Beathan Vale: I don’t much like that
Beathan Vale: on the other hand — Drax is contirbuting a $500 computer to the project
Pelanor Eldrich: Michel is offline
Beathan Vale: but that contribution is treated like a loan —
Justice Soothsayer: well, lets postpone further discussion of this to the next meeting, and encourage everyone to put in their L$.02 on the forums.
Patroklus Murakami: ok
Beathan Vale: sounds good
Mizou Vavoom: 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: I’m afraid I have to leave very soon.
Beathan Vale: me too
Mizou Vavoom: same here
Justice Soothsayer: Any objection to adjouring?
Patroklus Murakami: me too
Beathan Vale: lol
Mizou Vavoom: ok by me
Patroklus Murakami: nope, happy to adjourn
Justice Soothsayer: Mizou, great job on your first meeting!
Mizou Vavoom: hmmm di di have any choice lol
Justice Soothsayer: Let me remind everyone to touch the recorder if you haven’t already to indicate consent.
Mizou Vavoom has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: So — we’re adjourned.
Justice Soothsayer: thanks for coming, everyone.
Patroklus Murakami: cheerio everybody 🙂
Mizou Vavoom: thkx Justice
Bromo Ivory: (9Glad to observe!))
Mizou Vavoom: au revoir
The meeting closed at 14:58 Linden time.RA Meeting: May 20, 2007
Local-Position: (198, 184, 178)
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: what’s on the agenda today?
Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Not much
Claude Desmoulins: I think everyone is still at the guild meeting.
Justice Soothsayer: howdy
Patroklus Murakami: hi justice:)
Justice Soothsayer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Well we have a quorum 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Please touch the recorder
Claude Desmoulins: Let’s start.
Claude Desmoulins: We’ll postpone Mizou and Beathan’s reports until they arrive.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: knock, knock 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: hi Gwyn
Claude Desmoulins: Greetings
Patroklus Murakami: hi gwyn 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope there is room for one more 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah thank you CLaude 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Since we have to postpone reports….
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn has to report that everybody looks ruthed to me today 😛
Justice Soothsayer: ruthed?
Claude Desmoulins: Unfortunately, Pel hasn’t posted anythingfrom the last meeting yet.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, reverting to the default avatar ? Ruth
Patroklus Murakami: ooohn nice 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not really, lol
Claude Desmoulins: Now there would be a screen cap 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn will do nothing of the sort 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Too embarassing hehe
Claude Desmoulins: So, the first thing we can look at is VPR.
Claude Desmoulins: Where was this left last week?
Justice Soothsayer: we discussed it a bit, and decided we wanted to carry it over to allow sponsors to come to advocate for it.
Patroklus Murakami: drax was at the citizenship commisison yesterday
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack, it was yesterday? 😛
Claude Desmoulins: I’m really torn here.
Patroklus Murakami: he made a passionate case for the VPR proposal
Claude Desmoulins: Care to summarize?
Patroklus Murakami: but i think we need to see a full cost/benefit analysis and understand the numbers better. it’s a lot of money
Patroklus Murakami: his case?
Patroklus Murakami: well, that VPR would be an excellent way to advertise the CDS to wider SL
Patroklus Murakami: that we could maintain high standards (similar to NPR in the US)
Claude Desmoulins: I like the idea of new media, but….
Patroklus Murakami: that no one else is doing this yet
Patroklus Murakami: it’s an oppportunity
Patroklus Murakami: i hope I’m paraphrasing corrrectly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew I’m glad I don’t need to worry about this 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: …a broadcasting venture seems very tangential to SL, and we’ve never directly subsidized an organization.
Claude Desmoulins: Or have we, Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, you see, I’m totally in favour of it, if I don’t have to put up the work for it 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, in the sense of “direct”, no.
Claude Desmoulins: support has always been prims and the like, right?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: $86.00 US per month ? well…
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and a broader covenant…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, I understand Drax’s point.
Claude Desmoulins: But VPR has no real need of ny of that, do they?
Patroklus Murakami: my main problem is that cost. but also – ‘what’s teh point of attracting all and sundry to the CDS when there’s no way they can become citizens?’ we need to crack that nut first.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see… there is not really much the CDS can “give” the VPR
Gwyneth Llewelyn: except, well, money.
Claude Desmoulins: except cash
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye indeed
Patroklus Murakami: it’s a great idea though. perhaps better implemented when we have more citizens and more disposable income?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can’t influence you guys, LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I better shut up 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: drax is *very* enthusiastic though. i’m sure he’d make it work
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m almost as enthusiastic as he is, Pat, but just for one reason:
Claude Desmoulins: How do we feel about the principle of direct subsidy?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: writing a document, well, anyone can do that.
Justice Soothsayer: i’d also like to see some other financial commitments before we agree to providing matching funds
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But… having the courage, enthusiasm, and skill to do it… we won’t have a second opportunity.
Mizou Vavoom: hi evbrybody am outside but no idea where to enter for meeting
Justice Soothsayer: hi Mizou
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Mizou!
Mizou Vavoom: hi sorry being late problems logijng in
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, and hi as well, Beathan!
Beathan Vale: lol
Claude Desmoulins: North sside of the building.
Mizou Vavoom has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: Gwyn what’s your one reason for enthusiasm?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Opportunity, skill, and enthusiasm,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: all thrown into one package.
Patroklus Murakami: i have no problem with the subsidy in principle. the question is whether we can afford it, is it value for money right now?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was what made the MoCA finally work ? remember?
Claude Desmoulins: Am I hearing that it’s the $L figure that worries us rather than the overall idea?
Patroklus Murakami: from me? yes
Claude Desmoulins: Oops
Justice Soothsayer: yes, it’s a cost/benefit analysis; the idea of our collective subsidy of public radio is unobjectionable.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww it’s awful to be poor, lol ? three years ago, I’d put up the money from my own pocket, and just get the CDS Bank to emit bonds on it 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and then get it repaid as soon as this started to get a return on investment
Gwyneth Llewelyn takes a look at the way Drax is proposing citizen’s participation in this venture
Patroklus Murakami: there’s a lot of detail to settle but, do we agree that $50/month would be an acceptable investment?
Beathan Vale: I agree with that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: “VPR Membership costs will be of $1.50 per month payable on a monthly basis, or $12.00 per year payable on a yearly basis. ”
Claude Desmoulins: I wish I had a better sense of what the budget would bear.
Claude Desmoulins: And here’s Sudane 🙂
Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Sudane
Patroklus Murakami: as if by magic 🙂
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Justice Soothsayer: if its a choice between expansion and public radio, I’m for expansion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah great 🙂 welcome again, Sudane!
Claude Desmoulins: VPR is asking the CDS for up to $50/mo US in match.
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Sudane Erato: ty
Claude Desmoulins: It is all matching funds, correct?
Patroklus Murakami: if we go for pel’s poll tax, we could afford *both* expansion and VPR (and lots more besides….)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3.2.b) the CDS Government will match all CDS citizens? membership fees and donations, on a dollar-for dollar-basis, up to a maximum of $50.00 US per month. The CDS Government will be entitled to submit ideas and content for VPR transmissions, subject to the approval of the Board, at no cost.
Beathan Vale: true — but we can count on requiring the match — I think MM will put up $50 to match from the start
Beathan Vale: he wil reduce his contribution as others contribute — to maximize the CDS match
Claude Desmoulins: What would that do to the budget ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll put something as well, most likely ? LOL
Beathan Vale: so — we should assume a $50/month obligation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye I think that’s safer to assume as well.
Sudane Erato: sorry… just looking at the actual numbers
Beathan Vale: Gwyn — I probably will too
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: BTW does anyone not have an agenda?
Sudane Erato: well… catual monthly revenue varies by a great deal
Sudane Erato: actual
Sudane Erato: in Mar it was 450… and we lost money
Sudane Erato: in Apr it was 950
Sudane Erato: and obviously we accumulated $$
Sudane Erato: the $50 could certainly be handled…
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* The way I understand it, Sudane, it’s often the “buying-in” of plots that makes up for any lack of cash liquidity?
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: the variable comes from people buying abandoned land
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: and from people pre-paying their fees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: true 🙂
Sudane Erato: I post prepaid fees as revenue
Sudane Erato: even tho I should not
Sudane Erato: so there is a great variablity
Claude Desmoulins: Would we want to amend this with a sunset clause?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that would make a lot of sense…
Claude Desmoulins: To compel the next RA to revisit?
Sudane Erato: but its a quite significant amount of the revenues
Sudane Erato: and would become the second largest thing… by a long shot
Sudane Erato: that we pay for
Patroklus Murakami: there’s a review clause built in at two years
Claude Desmoulins: That’s eons in Sl.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2 years is a lot
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed …
Claude Desmoulins: I was thinking more like six months
Beathan Vale: 2 years is forever in SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Claude
Beathan Vale: I prefer to have things capped at a length that coincides with RA elections as the longest
Beathan Vale: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Or we could reduce the match committment to something like $30 or $35
Sudane Erato: that makes sense
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6 months, well, that would be slightly below an extra month of costs
Patroklus Murakami: is 6 months practical tho? we need to have drax’s input on that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Beathan Vale: shorter term makes more sense than reduced funding I think
Claude Desmoulins: Well that’s two months which isn’t practical for VPR to get started.
Beathan Vale: let’s us cut off a bleed —
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in SL, well, if you can’t put a project up in 6 months and make it self-sustaining,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s better not even to try it 🙂
Beathan Vale: Claude — that is true — we should have 8 months to start — then 6 thereafter to coincide with RA elections
Claude Desmoulins: So I’ll propose an amendment to 3-2-b
Claude Desmoulins: after $50 US per month….
Justice Soothsayer: also, we budget on a 6-month basis, so our budgeting discussions will be a good place to determine the continued value of public radio.
Claude Desmoulins: add, beginning June 1 2007 and ending March 1 2008.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Justice, in that case, this would be something on next term’s budget then?
Claude Desmoulins: Remember that budgets start and end 1 month after a new RA takes office
Beathan Vale: why until March — I was thinking more like Jan
Rubaiyat Shatner has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: To line up with the budget
Beathan Vale: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, like Claude said.
Patroklus Murakami: why don’t we simply agree to enter into negotiations with Drax on the terms of the bill and see what can be agreed? our discussion on timing etc can form the basis for our opening position
Beathan Vale: I think we should pass a bill first — and present that as the basis for negotiation — and also as a basis to move forward
Beathan Vale: given our meeting schedule — waiting might be a problem
Claude Desmoulins: And if the bill sets a time limit on funding.
Claude Desmoulins: VPR has an incentive to negotiate
Patroklus Murakami: that sets too much of a constraint beathan. we don’t know what is open to negotation and what isn’t
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, the only issue I see is very simple,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the amounts are low
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if the CDS “negotiates” too much,
Patroklus Murakami: no point picking a fight over the duration if the only issue up for debate is the cost, for example
Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyone in SL will be glad to sponsor that project, one way or the other.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat, you’re totally right 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: will simply get funding elsewhere
Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Stalling” ? as we in the CDS are so good at ? mostly means that people with clever ideas, enthusiasm, and the required set of skills
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good example: Redak and his “Democrat”
Claude Desmoulins: I have difficulty placing two or three future governments under an obligation like this.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, there are more examples.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Beathan Vale: I think that a funding commitment of 10 months — with a high likelihood of reinforcing success after that — is more supportive than a promise to negotiate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 10 months…!
Beathan Vale: form June until March is 10 months
Patroklus Murakami: claude, you put countless future RAs under the obligation of paying for CN when u approved that. it’s not really that much of an issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Touch?, Pat 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: the question is whether it’s a responsible decision to make or not
Claude Desmoulins: I tend to agree with Gwyn about not negotiating this to death.
Beathan Vale: Pat — true
Claude Desmoulins: If we wantto negotiate, what are we negotiating for?
Beathan Vale: I have concerns there — but with a sunset clause, my concerns are lessened
Claude Desmoulins: I call the question on the amendment
Patroklus Murakami: when i say ‘negotiating’ i mean ‘acknowledging to Drax that we support the idea, in principle’ but that we have concerns. we want to discuss what is open for negotiation in the proposal so that we can make an informed decision to support this or not
Patroklus Murakami: what’s the point of passing this amendment when u don’t know it it scuppers the whole plan or not?
Patroklus Murakami: don’t we need to talk to drax first?
Beathan Vale: we can pass something called “interim and startup funding pending negotiation”
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, your amendment is fine; I couldn’t support a 2-year funding commitment at this point
Beathan Vale: show of actual support as an indication of good faith going into negotiation
Claude Desmoulins: The question has been called on the amendment
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor…
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: and if u pass the amendment are you then going to call a vote on the whole bill? have you read the whole bill?
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Patroklus Murakami: nay to the amendment
Justice Soothsayer: aye to the amendment
Mizou Vavoom: aye
Claude Desmoulins: I now suggest that we should move the bill as amended to forum discuswsion.
Beathan Vale: that defeats the purpose of the amendment as I see it
Claude Desmoulins: To give Drax a chance to comment on its current form before a final vote on passage.
Beathan Vale: I would like a reading and vote on amended bill now
Beathan Vale: I don’t want to go into negotiation saying — we changed what you asked for — now talk to us
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, if u call a vote now I’m not sure i can support it
Beathan Vale: hmmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The amendment is just on the commitment on the 2 years?
Justice Soothsayer: I’d still like to know what other support is out there before we commit to the match. Do they really have $50/mo for us to match?
Claude Desmoulins: It time limts the fund match
Patroklus Murakami: yes gwyn, and there’s a lot of other stuff to discuss…
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Gwyneth Llewelyn believes that at that rate,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: with 40 or so points on the bill,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and an amendment + public consultation on each,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s a year of discussion.
Beathan Vale: yes — Gwyn
Patroklus Murakami: is the structure right? does teh RA have enough oversight? etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should be honest with Drax then,
Claude Desmoulins: I think Beathan is right that Michel and others will find the funds ASAP to get the match
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and tell him to ask sponsorship from Desmond or Kendra.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: He’ll get it in 2-3 days…
Beathan Vale: Gwyn — I agree — and we wil have lost another opportunity
Claude Desmoulins: I’m comfortable with the structure.
Patroklus Murakami: so we have to agree this or kill it? i don’t accept we have to do that gwyn
Beathan Vale: I say we move forward with the project, as ameded, now — and let Drax say no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say we already did, Beathan
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Beathan Vale: if he wants
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat, there is something called “cost of opportunity” 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The major issue her is just one. It’s not the “VPR”,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we can certainly discuss VPRs without rax.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Drax
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and even take 1-2 years for that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue is the cost of opportunity for *Drax*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: He can do it with us ? because he likes the CDS and its citizens ? in 2008,
Patroklus Murakami: i say we seize the opportunity by talking to Drax about the proposal and saying we want to go forward with it. i don’t see why we have to pass this bill though, especially when the RA has not properly considered it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or he can get funding elsewhere
Claude Desmoulins: What issues do you have with it other than the timeframe, Pat?
Beathan Vale: why should he talk to us when he can move ahead ASAP with support elsewhere
Beathan Vale: talk is cheap — we need, at a minimum, some showing of good faith commitment
Mizou Vavoom: he did say he was gong to go ahead with it anyway whether we give him popoortunity or not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Beathan, right now, he’s doing it with us first for sentimental/emotional reasons
Beathan Vale: an interim funded commitment of 2 months at least
Mizou Vavoom: so if we dont he will go lsewhre was my impression
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not quoting him exactly, but he had seen a lot of groups and communities around in SL, and this one is the one he empathises *more*.
Mizou Vavoom: true gwyn
Beathan Vale: it would be a shame to love that empathy in the chatter
Beathan Vale: lose I mean
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, well, that’s the opportunity cost here.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless, of course, we have up our sleeves a “Drax replacement” in say a year, when all issues have been thoroughly worked out …
Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to call a vote on my counter proposal – open negotiations with Drax on the basis of the amended bill and come back to the next RA with a proper draft agreed between both parties
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan has called the question on the bill.
Claude Desmoulins looks for a parlimentarian
Gwyneth Llewelyn likes Pat’s approach 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: no, he hasn’t
Claude Desmoulins: Cna Pat amend at this point?
Beathan Vale: Claude — actually I haven’t
Claude Desmoulins: Ok you haven’t
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Beathan Vale: I merely said I would support a call of the question if someone did it
Beathan Vale: I didn’t call it
Patroklus Murakami: indeed 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Pat has an amendment on the floor to negotiate with Drax.
Claude Desmoulins: What’s the goal of this negotiation?
Beathan Vale: I would support that on condition of an interim commitment
Beathan Vale: I would move to amend the amendment to provide an interim commitment
Patroklus Murakami: to agree a bill establishing VPR in the CDS on terms acceptable to the RA
Beathan Vale: and I would donae seed money of 25000 lindens to fund that commitment
Claude Desmoulins: Pat we can get what you want by tabling either to the forums or to tthe first meeting in June
Claude Desmoulins: Present the bill in its present state to Drax as a negotiating position
Patroklus Murakami: not really claude. we need to commit to a negotiation with an end point in sight
Beathan Vale: but I cannot support the “negotiate/don’t act” position without some action of good faith
Claude Desmoulins: How do we define the end point, then?
Patroklus Murakami: gah! the end point is the drafting of a bill that will work
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry… I was looking at the forums,
Claude Desmoulins: Give me a dealine, othewise we’ll be negotiating until December.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: apparently Drax has already made an informal decision, based on the time the debate is taking…
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather, that already took.
Patroklus Murakami: the next RA meeting
Claude Desmoulins: That’s June 3
Patroklus Murakami: that’s the deadline
Claude Desmoulins: Has Drax already gone elsewhere?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Justice Soothsayer: I thought he was still advocating for this as recently as yesterday.
Mizou Vavoom: he was
Patroklus Murakami: he was. at the citizenship commission
Claude Desmoulins: I’d like to table to forums so if we come to an agreement before then we can pass it.
Claude Desmoulins: with Drax that is.
Patroklus Murakami: he hasnt’ taken his idea elsewhere
Mizou Vavoom: but he would do if w werent quick enough
Mizou Vavoom: 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: who are we authorising to negotiate with Drax?
Gwyneth Llewelyn can only recommend the RA to act swiftly and with a strong commitment, anything beyond that would be violating Drax’s trust 😉
Gwyneth Llewelyn: swiftly means, in this context, “in the next few hours” 😉
Claude Desmoulins: If we can reach an agreement, I don’t want to keep VPR waiting until Jun 3 for us to have a meeting.
Beathan Vale: I move to amend the amendment to provide 2 months interim funding pending negotiation to be funded by donation from me of $27000 lindens
Gwyneth Llewelyn will add L$12000 to that gladly
Patroklus Murakami: taken as friendlies
Claude Desmoulins: Can ve vote on Pat’s amendment?
Patroklus Murakami: aye (to the vote and to my proposal)
Claude Desmoulins: all in favor of Pat’s amendment
Beathan Vale: call q on proposal as amended
Beathan Vale: aye
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Mizou Vavoom: aye
Claude Desmoulins: now onto the bill as amended.
Beathan Vale: aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Mizou Vavoom: aye
Michel Manen: here
Claude Desmoulins: We are way late.
Michel Manen: mmetings upstairs
Rose Springvale: think they are adjourning
Patroklus Murakami: claude, will u be contacting drax?
Michel Manen: great
Beathan Vale: OK — I will pay Sudane so that the commitment comes through the CDS
Michel Manen: lol
Claude Desmoulins: Pat will you explain to Drax where we are?
Michel Manen: they poasaed the radio bill?
Claude Desmoulins: Or per haps to Michel
Beathan Vale: MM passed with amendments
Rose Springvale: 🙂
Michel Manen: cool ill be intersted to read
Patroklus Murakami: yes claude, i will. but who is going to negotiate on behalf of the RA?
Rose Springvale: i’m still lost lol
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan and Mizou, could you please post commission reports to the forums?
Mizou Vavoom: yes will do
Mizou Vavoom: by tiomor
Claude Desmoulins: Anyone want the negotiator job, PAt, perhaps?
Beathan Vale: yes
Beathan Vale: I think Pat is best
Patroklus Murakami was not volunteering…
Beathan Vale: lol
Sudane Erato: i’ll be happy to assist however is useful
Patroklus Murakami: but, if u insist ….
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: I thik we do 🙂
Beathan Vale: move to insist
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Sudane Erato: haha
Justice Soothsayer: heh
Claude Desmoulins: We’ll table referenda to the 3rd.
Claude Desmoulins: We’re adjourned.
The meeting closed at 13:09 Linden time.RA Meeting: June 03, 2007
RA Meeting: June 10, 2007
. . . Code Commission – Beathan
. . . Citizenship Commission – Mizou
. . . notecard: Citizens Commission meeting 19 May 2007
PCA: Electoral Reform (Murakami)
Citizen Registration Bill (Murakami)
RA Size Bill (Murakami)
Absent: Justice Soothsayer, Mizou Vavoom
Others present: TOPGenosse Brouwer, Bromo Ivory (half way)
Claude Desmoulins: Well let us begin.
Claude Desmoulins: First as you can read , Mizou has resigned. Gwyn is working, I believe on geting a CARE faction ranking together to fill the seat.
Patroklus Murakami: i was sorry to hear that, but i understand mizou’s reasons totally
Beathan Vale: me too
Patroklus Murakami: let’s hope they can field a replacement
Claude Desmoulins: There is a transcript of the citizenship commission attached.
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan, anything new on code reorganization?
Beathan Vale: I am working on it
Beathan Vale: should send it out to the committee next week
Beathan Vale: currently working on organization by subject — for ease of reference
You: Beathan, can you send me a copy of what you have so far?
Patroklus Murakami: excellent, good to see progress on that
Claude Desmoulins: OK
Beathan Vale: TOP — it’s at work — but, yes, tomorrow — email me so I remember
You: Cool, I will, thanks.
Claude Desmoulins: just a moment please.
notetaker 2.0.1: Couldn’t find notecard address
Claude Desmoulins: Sorry figured out why the recorder isn t woking
Claude Desmoulins: Please keep logging
Patroklus Murakami: will do 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Since both the matters on the agenda require majorities we do not have…
Claude Desmoulins: …I move that we refer what we discuss here to the forums.
Patroklus Murakami: do they? are we not quorate?
Patroklus Murakami: aah, we need 4/5
Claude Desmoulins: But a constitutional change requires four votes.
You: Could at least discuss them
Patroklus Murakami: hmm. not sure about that claude
Claude Desmoulins: It has come up before..
Patroklus Murakami: is it not 2/3 of the RA as opposed to 2/3 of the potential members?
Patroklus Murakami: what was the outcome before?
Claude Desmoulins: That vote rquirements have been interpreted bythe SC to be of the total number of seats,.
Claude Desmoulins: Though the vacancy of the CARE seat makes things more complex.
Claude Desmoulins: Anyway.
Patroklus Murakami: even when seats are vacant?
Claude Desmoulins: Lets start with referenda.
Patroklus Murakami: just one question first
Beathan Vale: I think the referenda proposal has two problems
Patroklus Murakami: What do we do about the citizenship commission now that Mizou is no longer available to lead it?
Claude Desmoulins: Since I wrote it, how about someone else chime in. 🙂
Beathan Vale: First, it creates a limited and specific referendum system, without a backdrop of a more general procedure
Beathan Vale: I think we should pass legislation on intitiatives and referenda generally before passing the power piecemeal
Beathan Vale: second, it provides additional and I think unnecessary burdens on Constituional reform — this would tend to freeze the current Constitution, which I think is unwise at our stage in development
Patroklus Murakami agrees with Beathan on this
Claude Desmoulins: Others have argued that the constitution is too easy to change 🙂
Patroklus Murakami: it’s a very conservative idea. it will tend to ossify the Constitution in its current form
Claude Desmoulins: At the moment, the system could be radically altered withthe consent of five citizens, maybe four.
Patroklus Murakami: and we have the Commissions, which allow for a much more sophisticated form of citizen involvement
Patroklus Murakami: but those citizens are *elected* Claude. it’s not just anybody 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: True.
Patroklus Murakami: and we haven’t had any constitutional amends in *ages*! It’s not like we are changing things left right and centre right now
Beathan Vale: I would propose that, if we want to limit ease of change ot the Constitution, that we implement a general intiative process (along with a referendum process) — but then allow Constitutional amendment only by iniative — Constitution creation by direct democracy
Beathan Vale: Referenda are clunky — require a multiplicity of institutions to act
Claude Desmoulins: If we were to do that, the RA would have little reason to exist, now?
Patroklus Murakami: beathan, we already have that. citizens already have the power of initiative, what would your proposal add?
Beathan Vale: but — I’m not sure the process is broken at the moment
Claude Desmoulins: *no
Beathan Vale: Pat — clarify the link and provided procedures for Constitutional amendment
Beathan Vale: but — again — I don’t know that it is necessary or desirable to change the rules atm
Patroklus Murakami: i think we’re probably mostly in agreement beathan, i see no need to make major changes in our procedures right now. i think the commission work well. we must discuss teh citizenship commission at soem point today, it woudl be a shame for that to die for lack of attention by the RA
Claude Desmoulins: Do you want to insert that ahead of the electoral reform bill?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Beathan Vale: if our population increases to unmanageable size — we will need to make changes — so it makes good sense to map out a plan — but not necessarily to implement it
Claude Desmoulins: Lets start with the CC vacancy.
Patroklus Murakami: the first meeting went very well, the transcrip shows the quality of the debate
Claude Desmoulins: Does anyone here want to run with this ball?
Patroklus Murakami: *transcript
Claude Desmoulins: We do need a new chair.
Beathan Vale: I think that parts of Pat’s proposal need to be discussed in the CC
Patroklus Murakami: there is a linkage between those issues, it’s true
Patroklus Murakami: but i think u cd do 1) electoral reform 2) citizenship or vice versa
Patroklus Murakami: they are inter-related but one does not have to wait for the other
Beathan Vale: true — but a link between sim and residence seems like a citizenship issue
Claude Desmoulins: Whats the deadline for the CC report, btw?
Claude Desmoulins: Whats the deadline for the CC report, btw?
You: CC is something that needs to be discussed/conducted “in the background” anyway
Beathan Vale: brb
Patroklus Murakami: i drafted teh electoral reform proposal on the basis of our current situation, without making any assumptions about the outcome of the CC
Patroklus Murakami looks for timeline on the CC…
You: “The Commission will hold a full and participative set of discussions inworld and on the CDS forums starting on 20 May and finishing on 17 June 2007. ”
Patroklus Murakami: ty TOP 🙂
You: Mizou has been ill for two weekends at least
Claude Desmoulins: That is Fathers day in the US
Claude Desmoulins: The chair needs to be an RA member
Patroklus Murakami: and elsewhere (including the UK)
Claude Desmoulins: Good afternoon, Bromo
Patroklus Murakami: hi Bromo
You: Hi Bromo
Bromo Ivory: Hello
You: Aren’t you a citizen-member of that commission?
Bromo Ivory: I went to 1 meeting on it – but I was not aware if anything had been worthy of recommending
Claude Desmoulins: Justice is airborne again this week, we could always draft him 🙂
Bromo Ivory accepted your inventory offer.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we send this to forums so as to have some time to discuss electoral reform.
Patroklus Murakami: cruel, but fair 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Beathan Vale: second
Claude Desmoulins: Any objection?
Patroklus Murakami: no, that’s fine
Claude Desmoulins: Now on to electoral reform.
Patroklus Murakami: shall i introduce?
Claude Desmoulins: Have we read it? If so we could jump straight to discussion.
Patroklus Murakami: I realise this is quite a lot to take in at once. so i’d like to start by describing the general principle rather than the detail
Beathan Vale: I am still coming to grips with the implications and details of the proposal — and am consulting with members of my Party — so I am not yet prepared to discuss or take a position on the proposal as presented
Patroklus Murakami: this proposal gives everyone the same rights that faction members currently have – the right to choose between the candidates standing for the RA
Claude Desmoulins: Like the two of you on referenda, I think this seeks to fix something that is not broken.
Claude Desmoulins: It would laso gut the factions, making them nought more than labels.
Beathan Vale: breaking my own rule — I will say I that I agree with Pat on this one
Patroklus Murakami: it also solves the ‘local v. national’ problem. all RA members would be local reps in a national legislature
Beathan Vale: we do have a problem with disenfranchising folks who have heartburn about all the various parties — but who may not have similar qualms about candidates
Claude Desmoulins: I am interested in using STV with factions.
Patroklus Murakami: i don’t agree claude. the factions will still be vital to our system
Claude Desmoulins: Or a mixed system, which the CSDF proposed at one point.
Claude Desmoulins: Why?
Claude Desmoulins: will they still be vital, that is?
Patroklus Murakami: all candidates must still be members of factions. but the key difference is that everyone gets to choose between them. that is surely more democratic than at present
Beathan Vale: Yes — succession by faction does not change, the power of association doe snot change
Bromo Ivory: Party lists vs. individual candidates. The role of parties is quite different.
Beathan Vale: what would change is that we would be more open to full participations by citizens like Dianne — who have heartburn about the association and are willing to forgo the benefits of faction membership\
You: Only faction members can make policy, so allowing *everyone* to rank candidates won’t gut factions.
Patroklus Murakami: i will concede that it weakens the factions vis a vis the voters, but is that a bad thing?
Bromo Ivory: I do not think so.
Bromo Ivory: It will make the people closer to the RA
Claude Desmoulins: I worrry about personality driven elections.
Bromo Ivory: WHy is that an issue?
Patroklus Murakami: it means more choice for the electorate. there is a risk that get u get more personality politiics’ but we have that already 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Or what about having some at large seats under the present system and some seats in constituency.
Claude Desmoulins: Id even be willing to let the constituency seats be detached from factions,
Patroklus Murakami: well claude, that wd be up for discussion. i’m open to exploring other ideas around the central theme
Bromo Ivory: Succession becomes a bigger issue – in the case of CARE
Beathan Vale: I tend to favor direct election of persons — succession by faction
Claude Desmoulins: PAt, also the RA size bill as written would caus the RA to shrink each time we cross one of the population threshholds.
Claude Desmoulins: But then you still have people like Diane excluded
Patroklus Murakami: claude, yes it would. we would go from about 40 to about 20 each time a threshold was crossed. is that a problem though?
Claude Desmoulins: I think so.
Claude Desmoulins: Whats the advantage of that over letting the RA plateau at 40 as is now the rule.
Beathan Vale: We need to keep a lid on RA size in the face of growth
You: The way I read the RA Size Bill, this will cause the RA to have 50 – 100 representatives .. when the population is 2000 – 4000 …. 50 – 100 reps is a LOT.
Patroklus Murakami: again, nothing is set in stone. provided the principles are respected, we can discuss the finer points
Claude Desmoulins: 40 ws also picked as the most avs you could reaonabley pack into a sim.
Patroklus Murakami: that’s not teh way i drafted it TOP!
Beathan Vale: If we don’t want shrinkage at thresholds, we need ot get rid of thresholds — but use some formula to require ever greater populaiton increase before adding a seat
Claude Desmoulins: I dont read it that way either TOP
Claude Desmoulins: Pragmatic limits (mostly avs per sim) create a hardupper limit onthe size of an inworld meeting.
You: Pat .. so you say have 40 reps max? Then what happens if we have 41 sims? Does that mean 1 sim does NOT get represented?
Claude Desmoulins: 10% of 390 is 39
Claude Desmoulins: 5% of 401 is 20
You: You can’t have a lower representation than 1 rep per sim ..
Claude Desmoulins: Is each constituency in your proposal guaranteed at least one seat, Pat?
Patroklus Murakami: sims are only represented if they have enough citizens there. the limit is about ten at present
You: So if I have a franchulate with 9 people, they don’t get represented at all??
Claude Desmoulins: So a low population sim couled have citizens with no rep in your system.
Bromo Ivory: This is where you get teh split in the manner of the US
You: That should be remedied 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Beathan?
Patroklus Murakami: the situation TOP envisages, with 41 sims or more, would need another law as teh population would be over 8000
Claude Desmoulins: Not necessarily.
You: How many citizens per sim Pat?
Claude Desmoulins: That presumes that most future sims will have population densities comparable to the present ones.
You: Pat I don’t think so … 40 sims of 40 people = 1600 people … or less
Bromo Ivory: What hapopend when a SIM wants to join us and the population is not the same
Patroklus Murakami: well, if u insist one at least one rep per sim/franch regardless of population size, u get some weird effects. lots of small places with few citizens get over-represented
You: 1600 citizens = 2 % of the sim will be reps .. 2 % of 40 people = 0.8 = 1
Claude Desmoulins: BTW, for a faction that ran on a one republic plank, this is further down the confederation road than I ever imagined in my wildest dreams 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: You round down top
Claude Desmoulins: 0.8=0
You: 0.8 rounded down = 0 = no reps?
You: do we want that?? 😀
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Bromo Ivory: Feels like disenfranchisement
You: I’ll have to join care, if the RA wants to throw away votes! 😀
Patroklus Murakami: again, that’s up for discussion. let’s play with some numbers and scenarios and see what comes out
Beathan Vale: I would rather have a progression like 5 for 200-; 7 for 201-500; 9 for 501 – 900; 11 for 901 – 1400, etc
You: too-small constituencies can be lumped together
Beathan Vale: we hit 39 at a population of 18900 — I think
Claude Desmoulins: Some at large seats would solve this as well.
Patroklus Murakami: remember, everyone can choose where they register if they have land in more than one sim. so no one need be disenfranchised
Claude Desmoulins: even if a given constituency was too small youd be represented by an atlarge rep.
You: So if I live in Pel’s small (future) franchulate, I’ll have to buy land here — especially not to get disenfranchised?
Patroklus Murakami: claude’s idea is worht considering
Beathan Vale: I agree
Claude Desmoulins: Ill put up a counter proposal some time in the next few days.
Claude Desmoulins: Anything else ere we adjourn?
Patroklus Murakami: another idea would be to treat the whole CDS (sims plus franchulates) as one big constituency. very ‘republican’ but it doesn’t solve the ‘local v national’ problem 🙂
Bromo Ivory: I would be Ok with that
You: Pat > that would only ADD the ranking of persons?
Beathan Vale: we want to be careful of having single citizen franchulates — where a person could essentially buy a seat on the RA
Patroklus Murakami: happy to adjourn. i smell supper 🙂
Claude Desmoulins: Good point
Bromo Ivory: “Rotton boroughs”
Beathan Vale: but generally, i support local representation on a 1 seat per sim basis
Claude Desmoulins: The next meeting is the 24th of June in the Praetorium at Noon SLT
Beathan Vale: if the sim has a minimum population size
Beathan Vale: but I think that the numbe of seats can be dealt with as its own issue — and then we can divide the seats by category afterward
Claude Desmoulins: We are adjourned until then.
Beathan Vale: kk
You: too-small constituencies could be lumped together with a sim
Claude Desmoulins: Thanks all.
Patroklus Murakami: bye all
time 13:01 SLTRA Meeting: June 24, 2007
RA Meeting: July 08, 2007
Patroklus Murakami: I hope I’ve embarrassed you enought now!
Sudane Erato: hehe
Bromo Ivory: The Claude Foundation
Jamie Palisades: Fair government is hard work. Thank you, Claude, for both.
Sudane Erato: yes 🙂
Beathan Vale: How about some tradition honorary post — like Ambassodor to Caledon — 😉
Sudane Erato: haha.. 🙂
Bromo Ivory: LOL
Jamie Palisades: Doe sit come with weaponry? Or at least an armored vest?
Sudane Erato: 🙂
Bromo Ivory: Asbestos underpants
Sudane Erato: hehe
Patroklus Murakami: Ambassador to Port Neualtenburg (if we’re feeling evil :))
Sudane Erato: ahhh 🙂
Bromo Ivory: Oh the “Tony Blair” plan
Beathan Vale: I have someone else in mind for that 😉
Sudane Erato: well… ty all… I must go 🙂
Sudane Erato: bye now
Jamie Palisades: 🙂
Beathan Vale: bye Sudane
Bromo Ivory: Bye
Patroklus Murakami: bye sudane
Patroklus Murakami wonders how much of thaat claude saw….
Bromo Ivory wonders as well
Jamie Palisades: well Pat, since you are adjourned: thank you to the rest of you for your service as well
Bromo Ivory: I will have to be going as well – and I have very much enjoyes the sessions I have attended!
Patroklus Murakami: thank you jamie, that’s very kind 🙂 I hope claude will be back soon to read the fulsome , if badly-typed, praise 🙂
Jamie Palisades: 🙂
Bromo Ivory: LOL
Jamie Palisades: Good day all
Bromo Ivory: Good bye guys!
Patroklus Murakami: bye jamie, bromo
Claude Desmoulins: Thanks all.
Claude Desmoulins: Must go
The meeting closed at 12:38 Linden time.