RA Journals – 12th Assembly

Agenda

I. ADMIN
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
d. Future RA schedule: rhythm of meetings
e. Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
f. Update of the CDS group and the and the portraits

II. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA(-)
–

III. NEW ITEMS
a. Introductory Speech
b. RA discussion on this term’s priorities
c. RA Archivist
d. LRA pro tempore
e. Election Chancellor for next meeting
c. Inaugural Ball

IV. Concerns of RA Members

V. Concerns of Citizens

VI. Adjournment
Transcription

[2010/02/07 9:12] Arria Perreault: Delia and Sudane, I let you start
[2010/02/07 9:12] Delia Lake: It would of course be most preferable to have Stui here but if that is not possible we can administer the affirmation to him later
[2010/02/07 9:12] Delia Lake: Sudane?
[2010/02/07 9:12] Arria Perreault: she brought the stick
[2010/02/07 9:12] Sudane Erato: is there something i should do other than stand here? 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:12] Arria Perreault: o
[2010/02/07 9:13] Arria Perreault: no 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles
[2010/02/07 9:13] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2010/02/07 9:13] Delia Lake: let me start then
[2010/02/07 9:14] Arias Ahren: Hellow everyone.
[2010/02/07 9:14] Rose Springvale: Hi Arias, welcome 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:15] Arias Ahren: Hi Rose. which is the section for the audience
[2010/02/07 9:15] Delia Lake: The Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a democratic state.
[2010/02/07 9:15] Jamie Palisades: good morning, forgive my being slow, I’m an iPhone cloud this morning 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:15] Rose Springvale: the chairs 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:15] Delia Lake: One of the freedoms embodied in our Constitution is that of religious choice as specified in one of its Founding Documents,
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
[2010/02/07 9:15] Delia Lake: Out of our respect for diverse religious beliefs about taking oaths as well as for RA members who may be non-religious, the
following affirmation does not contain any referrences to any supernatural entities.
[2010/02/07 9:15] Delia Lake: However, anyone taking office who may wish to do so may add the words “So help me God” [or any other entity] at the end, if
they wish so.
[2010/02/07 9:16] Delia Lake: They may also replace the words “affirm” by “swear” if they are so inclined.
[2010/02/07 9:17] Delia Lake: in the interest of some order here, and to prevent my missing anyone, we will start with Arria, and then follow around
clockwise from my perspective
[2010/02/07 9:17] Delia Lake: you each have a copy of the affirmation
[2010/02/07 9:17] Delia Lake: please repeat after me
[2010/02/07 9:17] Delia Lake: Arria. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:17] Arria Perreault: I, Arria Perreault, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Delia Lake: Pat. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Patroklus Murakami: I, Patroklus Murakami, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of
Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and
allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Delia Lake: Gwyn. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I, Gwyneth Llewelyn, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Delia Lake: Mikelo. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Mikelo Serevi: I, Mikelo Serevi, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:18] Delia Lake: Lilith. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Lilith Ivory: I, Lilith Ivory, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Delia Lake: Caro. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Carolyn Saarinen: I, Carolyn Saarinen, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Delia Lake: Pip. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Pip Torok: I, Pip Torok, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation
of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Delia Lake: Gelf. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:19] Gelf Yalin: I, Gelf Yalin, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators,
do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:20] Delia Lake: Timo. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:20] Timo Gufler: I, Timo Gufler, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:20] Delia Lake: Imotali. I, [YOUR NAME], having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:20] Imotali Antiesse: I, Imotali Antiesse, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic
Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to
the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic Simulators. So help
me, Ya Allah.
[2010/02/07 9:21] Delia Lake: Congratulations to all of you. on behalf of the entire Scientific Council. You now constitute the RA of the Confederation of
Democratic Simulators.
[2010/02/07 9:21] Cindy Ecksol: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[2010/02/07 9:21] Patroklus Murakami: Hurrah!
[2010/02/07 9:21] Sonja Strom: ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫
[2010/02/07 9:21] Mikelo Serevi: 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:22] Rose Springvale: yay, you made it Keila
[2010/02/07 9:22] Sonja Strom: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[2010/02/07 9:22] Arria Perreault: Thank you very much, Delia 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:22] Keila Forager: I flew
[2010/02/07 9:22] Delia Lake: you’re very welcome
[2010/02/07 9:22] Lilith Ivory: applause
[2010/02/07 9:22] Soro Dagostino: God help us all
[2010/02/07 9:22] Sudane Erato: i agree Soro
[2010/02/07 9:22] Arria Perreault: We can open the first meetinf of the 12th RA now
[2010/02/07 9:23] Arria Perreault: I have published an agenda on the forum and there is an updated version in the amphora
[2010/02/07 9:23] Arria Perreault: we will start with the administrative part of the meeting
[2010/02/07 9:24] Arria Perreault: I ask the member to agree to be recorded
[2010/02/07 9:24] Arria Perreault: and all people who intend to speak during this meeting
[2010/02/07 9:24] Arria Perreault: the recorder is on the table
[2010/02/07 9:26] Jamie Palisades: Arria, I cannot click it (iPhone client) but consent to being recorded.
[2010/02/07 9:26] Arria Perreault: I see in my mails that the tool is working
[2010/02/07 9:26] Arria Perreault: Thank you Jamie 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:27] Arria Perreault: Next point : Agenda
[2010/02/07 9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I move to approve it, if nobody else has anything new to add…
[2010/02/07 9:27] Arria Perreault: I have added few points
[2010/02/07 9:27] Patroklus Murakami: seconded
[2010/02/07 9:27] Pip Torok: second
[2010/02/07 9:27] Arria Perreault: Thank you
[2010/02/07 9:28] Sudane Erato: speech speech! 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/02/07 9:28] Arria Perreault: do you agree with this agenda?
[2010/02/07 9:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Gelf Yalin: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Timo Gufler: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Rose Springvale: hi Rowan, welcome!
[2010/02/07 9:28] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 9:28] Rowan Aurbierre: Thanks and hi Rose
[2010/02/07 9:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Sudane, that’s III a., we’re still at I. b. 🙂 )
[2010/02/07 9:29] Sudane Erato: oh
[2010/02/07 9:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2010/02/07 9:29] Arria Perreault: the agenda is accepted
[2010/02/07 9:30] Arria Perreault: Next point: Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
[2010/02/07 9:30] Arria Perreault: who asks?
[2010/02/07 9:30] Arria Perreault: who want to speak during this meeting?
[2010/02/07 9:31] Carolyn Saarinen: I may have a minor point on I.f, initially
[2010/02/07 9:31] Carolyn Saarinen: or on other new business as it becomes clear
[2010/02/07 9:31] Rose Springvale: won’t know til specifics are discussed
[2010/02/07 9:32] Soro Dagostino: I expect to commment on just about everything
[2010/02/07 9:32] Pip Torok: agree with Rose
[2010/02/07 9:32] Jamie Palisades: arria, I may have a question about your chancellor selection timing 🙂 and whatever else is on agenda but not ecplained
[2010/02/07 9:32] Soro Dagostino: Not a good way to limity democracy
[2010/02/07 9:33] Arria Perreault: anybody else?
[2010/02/07 9:33] Mikelo Serevi: if we don’t speak up now,we remain silent?
[2010/02/07 9:33] Gelf Yalin: i may want to speak later
[2010/02/07 9:33] Arria Perreault: RA members can speak
[2010/02/07 9:34] Soro Dagostino: Apparently
[2010/02/07 9:34] Mikelo Serevi: I thought so, but I’m a little new to this
[2010/02/07 9:34] Arria Perreault: I am asking the citizen who are in the praetorium
[2010/02/07 9:34] Sudane Erato: 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:34] Patroklus Murakami: RA members can speak on any issue mikelo. the LRA asks for speakers in case citizens have things they particularly
want to speak on. it helps to keep discussion going 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:34] Pip Torok: ah, I believe our delegation didn’t realise that, Arria
[2010/02/07 9:34] Mikelo Serevi: I just wanted to clarify, thank you
[2010/02/07 9:35] Patroklus Murakami: no problem 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:35] Arria Perreault: sorry. I should have given an information
[2010/02/07 9:36] Arria Perreault: Next point: Future RA schedule: rhythm of meetings
[2010/02/07 9:36] Soro Dagostino: Giving birth?
[2010/02/07 9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soro!
[2010/02/07 9:36] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[2010/02/07 9:36] Arria Perreault: Pat?
[2010/02/07 9:36] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[2010/02/07 9:36] Tomatoe Launcher: Enter Mouselook to shoot me!
[2010/02/07 9:36] Tomatoe Launcher: Could not find animation ‘hold_L_handgun’
[2010/02/07 9:36] Arria Perreault: you have the floor
[2010/02/07 9:37] Patroklus Murakami: i’d like to propose that, in between our formal RA meetings, we hold informal ‘Town Hall’ meetings open to all.
perhaps the next one coudl be before our next scheduled meeting and in Al Andalus?
[2010/02/07 9:37] Tomatoe Launcher: Could not find animation ‘hold_L_handgun’.
[2010/02/07 9:38] Arria Perreault: does it mean that we meet every two weeks?
[2010/02/07 9:38] Patroklus Murakami: this would give citizens direct input into our work in a less formal setting and continue some of the traditions of Al
Andalus/ i would prefer to hold formal RA meetings every two weeks
[2010/02/07 9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So RA would meet one week; then the next week we’d have an informal Town Hall; then another RA meeting… and so forth?
[2010/02/07 9:39] Patroklus Murakami: yes gwyn 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, sorry — just to clarify.
[2010/02/07 9:39] Pip Torok: no imo 2-wk RA meetings plus any number of AA meetings
[2010/02/07 9:39] Carolyn Saarinen: who would have thought of that? 😉
[2010/02/07 9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah… ok, Pip… no set number
[2010/02/07 9:39] Patroklus Murakami: sure, the more the merrier!
[2010/02/07 9:40] Jamie Palisades smiles
[2010/02/07 9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so long as they’re part of the regular events list so we know when they are…
[2010/02/07 9:40] Pip Torok agrrees with gwyn
[2010/02/07 9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or else they’d be TOO informal 😀
[2010/02/07 9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/02/07 9:40] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[2010/02/07 9:40] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[2010/02/07 9:40] Rose Springvale raises hand
[2010/02/07 9:40] Arria Perreault: Rose?
[2010/02/07 9:41] Carolyn Saarinen: I propose we call them ‘Stui’s Talking Hour’ to be really original.
[2010/02/07 9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Caro 😉
[2010/02/07 9:41] Pip Torok: LOL
[2010/02/07 9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[2010/02/07 9:41] Rose Springvale: i’m unclear, this is something the RA wishes to govern? as AA citizens always have many informal meetings, and i think it
is wrong to limit that
[2010/02/07 9:41] Patroklus Murakami: if i may clarify?
[2010/02/07 9:41] Pip Torok: my point Rose …
[2010/02/07 9:41] Rose Springvale: and they don’t generally calendar them.
[2010/02/07 9:41] Arria Perreault: yes, Pat, please
[2010/02/07 9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2010/02/07 9:42] Patroklus Murakami: the proposal is to hold CDS Town Hall meetings. they would inform the work of this body.
[2010/02/07 9:42] Patroklus Murakami: the model is, in part, AAs ‘Town Hall’ meetings. but they would be open to all and might take place all over the cDS
[2010/02/07 9:43] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we hold the first one in AA to honour AAs tradtions and to continue the work of merging the political and
cultural systems of the two communities. that’s all 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: may I add something?
[2010/02/07 9:43] Pip Torok agrees
[2010/02/07 9:43] Arria Perreault: yes, Gwyn
[2010/02/07 9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, one important thing to remember is that the right of assembly is given, that is nothing the government can take
away …
[2010/02/07 9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I understand these “Town Halls” correctly,
[2010/02/07 9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the point is just that at least most RA reps will be attending, right?
[2010/02/07 9:44] Pip Torok: uviv Dec of Human Rights article 20 … to be precise
[2010/02/07 9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. it’ll be a duty
[2010/02/07 9:44] Rose Springvale: if you aren’t suggesting replacing the conversations already going on, no problem. STH for example, doesn’t limit itself
to SL issues, often taking on real issues
[2010/02/07 9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks for the reference, Pip!)
[2010/02/07 9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Rose
[2010/02/07 9:45] Patroklus Murakami: i would encourage RA members to attend. i would hope most would try to attend (time zones are tricky things tho!)
[2010/02/07 9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so the point would be… having a time… where citizens can yell at their reps… make sure they’re heard… on a less
informal way than here at the RA
[2010/02/07 9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, yes, of course, Pat — time zones and personal schedules permitting 😀
[2010/02/07 9:46] Rose Springvale: transcripted?
[2010/02/07 9:46] Patroklus Murakami: yes 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: transcripted too, I believe
[2010/02/07 9:46] Patroklus Murakami: yes rose
[2010/02/07 9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, this starts to require a bill lol
[2010/02/07 9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to formalise the informal gathering 😉
[2010/02/07 9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[2010/02/07 9:46] Arria Perreault: Any other comment on the proposal of Pat?
[2010/02/07 9:46] Solomon Mosely: ‘yelling at reps…’?
[2010/02/07 9:47] Jamie Palisades: eel, transcripted, will need a convener then
[2010/02/07 9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: just my figure of speech, Solomon 😀
[2010/02/07 9:47] Mikelo Serevi: well, maybe we can see how it goes
[2010/02/07 9:47] Mikelo Serevi: I think it’s a good idea
[2010/02/07 9:47] Solomon Mosely: you must be a rep? 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:47] Patroklus Murakami: well, it’s been said that this body often strains like an elephant and produces a gnat. i think this should be an easy
win without too much formality 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:47] Solomon Mosely: well, does the mob need a bill to meet? are these mandatory for rep attendance?
[2010/02/07 9:47] Pip Torok agrees with Pat
[2010/02/07 9:47] Soro Dagostino: Sounds like an effort to keep the masses from talking at RA
[2010/02/07 9:47] Lilith Ivory: Pat, I wonder if you suggest that to keep people out of the regular RA meetings
[2010/02/07 9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, Solomon.
[2010/02/07 9:47] Solomon Mosely: right
[2010/02/07 9:48] Mikelo Serevi: I second the proposal
[2010/02/07 9:48] Patroklus Murakami: certainly not
[2010/02/07 9:48] Solomon Mosely: what proposal?
[2010/02/07 9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: most definitely not!
[2010/02/07 9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I second Pat’s suggestion with Pip’s amendment (no set dates), having them transcripted, RA members attending, and the necessity of setting it on the events list 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:48] Patroklus Murakami: it’s not intended to keep ppl out of RA meetings
[2010/02/07 9:48] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Gwyn
[2010/02/07 9:48] Rose Springvale: time of day?
[2010/02/07 9:48] Arria Perreault: We can vote
[2010/02/07 9:48] Lilith Ivory: ok Pat
[2010/02/07 9:48] Patroklus Murakami: citizens should always be welcome to attend at RA and speak
[2010/02/07 9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no set time, as per Pip’s suggestion, Rose
[2010/02/07 9:48] Solomon Mosely: are you voting on having no n mandatory, unlisted, informal meetings?
[2010/02/07 9:48] Solomon Mosely: relly?
[2010/02/07 9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: informal in the proceedings 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:48] Jamie Palisades: oh, fooey sorority, let’s see the experiment tried. not like Stui’s meetings quelled RA debate 😀
[2010/02/07 9:49] Solomon Mosely: uh huh
[2010/02/07 9:49] Arria Perreault: Pat, can yyou reformulate your proposal, so it is clear for everyone?
[2010/02/07 9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please.
[2010/02/07 9:49] Rose Springvale: there would be no voting, so no issues with quorum right?
[2010/02/07 9:49] Solomon Mosely: how about scheduled regional meetings on the off RA weeks? like a CN meeting, an LA merting, etc…
[2010/02/07 9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (exactly, Rose)
[2010/02/07 9:49] Solomon Mosely: or faction meetings?
[2010/02/07 9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Regional meetings is a great idea, Solomon! As for faction meetings, the way they organise themselves is up to them …
[2010/02/07 9:50] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that the RA hold a meeting next week in AA. Town Hall format. No votes, quorum or decisions. all citizens
welcome and free to speak and participate. i suggest we use teh same time as this meeting as a starting point.
[2010/02/07 9:50] Jamie Palisades grins & pretends his iPhone did NOT spell “Soro” as “sorority” …
[2010/02/07 9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:50] Arria Perreault: Thank you Pat
[2010/02/07 9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I was wondering, Jamie… hehe )
[2010/02/07 9:50] Arria Perreault: RA members who agree with Pat’s proposal say aye
[2010/02/07 9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2010/02/07 9:50] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[2010/02/07 9:50] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 9:51] Solomon Mosely: i just mean, if you’re going to vote on someht8ing, then how about a real meeting with times, otherwise it seems like
you’re voting on the fact that maybe getting together icould be a good idea
[2010/02/07 9:51] Patroklus Murakami just set a date and time….
[2010/02/07 9:51] Gelf Yalin: AYE
[2010/02/07 9:51] Pip Torok thinks Sol’s proposal would smother real participation
[2010/02/07 9:51] Timo Gufler: abstain
[2010/02/07 9:51] Solomon Mosely: i ddnt propose anything
[2010/02/07 9:51] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 9:51] Solomon Mosely: aye
[2010/02/07 9:52] Imotali Antiesse: for a try, aye
[2010/02/07 9:52] Patroklus Murakami: i think my ‘aye’ is implicit but here it is anyway!
[2010/02/07 9:52] Carolyn Saarinen: So long as we all realise that citizen’s don’t need RA permission to talk, then aye.
[2010/02/07 9:52] Patroklus Murakami: of course caro!
[2010/02/07 9:52] Arria Perreault: I say aye too
[2010/02/07 9:52] Soro Dagostino: LOL
[2010/02/07 9:52] Sonja Strom: hehe
[2010/02/07 9:52] Carolyn Saarinen: I mean, the meetings will happen anyway, thay have so far!
[2010/02/07 9:53] Arria Perreault: 8 aye, 1 abstention, motion corries
[2010/02/07 9:53] Mikelo Serevi: I think the intent is to reach out, not to lock down
[2010/02/07 9:53] Pip Torok: very true!
[2010/02/07 9:53] Arria Perreault: Thank you
[2010/02/07 9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, of course! when two citizens log in to SL and chat about the CDS, it’s a meeting 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:53] Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂 shall i liaise with rose to set it up? sensible next step?
[2010/02/07 9:53] Arria Perreault: We will contact Rose to find a location in AA for this meeting
[2010/02/07 9:53] Rose Springvale: welcome Ariel
[2010/02/07 9:53] Rose Springvale: sure, lots of places
[2010/02/07 9:54] Ariel Feden: hey there
[2010/02/07 9:54] Arria Perreault: Next point: Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
[2010/02/07 9:54] Arria Perreault: Only a reminder. The rules are published in the CDS portal: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[2010/02/07 9:55] Arria Perreault: I would appreciate a lot that any proposal is published on the forums few days before meetings
[2010/02/07 9:55] Lilith Ivory: uhm … so the RA meets every 14 days at 9am right?
[2010/02/07 9:55] Arria Perreault: yes
[2010/02/07 9:55] Lilith Ivory: ok thanks 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: should we vote on that?
[2010/02/07 9:56] Soro Dagostino: Why not?
[2010/02/07 9:56] Arria Perreault: On the rules of procedures?
[2010/02/07 9:56] Timo Gufler: do we have other choices?
[2010/02/07 9:56] Mikelo Serevi: does anyone disagree?
[2010/02/07 9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… on the date & time of meetings
[2010/02/07 9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Mikelo, let’s be practical… does anyone disagree with the date & time? 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:57] Arria Perreault: was it not implicit with the previous vote?
[2010/02/07 9:57] Rose Springvale hates the date and time of RA meetings, but is not a rep 🙂
[2010/02/07 9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that was for the Town Hall meetings….
[2010/02/07 9:57] Carolyn Saarinen: I would only suggest, that we not be rigid on that…
[2010/02/07 9:57] Patroklus Murakami: i think any discussion of date/time of meetings is better taken offline. if there’s no disagreement, let’s agree to
fortnightly Sundays at 9am SLT
[2010/02/07 9:57] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I think it was
[2010/02/07 9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I second Pat’s suggestion then.
[2010/02/07 9:57] Arria Perreault: if not, let’s make a motion and find a second
[2010/02/07 9:57] Carolyn Saarinen: It may prove difficult for someone..
[2010/02/07 9:58] Carolyn Saarinen: so long as there is proper notice, it may be best to have some flexibility.
[2010/02/07 9:58] Gelf Yalin: very good time 4 me
[2010/02/07 9:58] Solomon Mosely: is it a Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure to revote on all exsisting Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
when a new RA is voted in?
[2010/02/07 9:58] Timo Gufler: fairly good for me, but not perfect
[2010/02/07 9:58] Patroklus Murakami: let’s use this as our default time and, if ppl have problems with it, change it?
[2010/02/07 9:59] Mikelo Serevi: good idea, pat
[2010/02/07 9:59] Arria Perreault: ok for me
[2010/02/07 9:59] Solomon Mosely: yes, good idea, stick with the esting time until someone says its a problem
[2010/02/07 9:59] Carolyn Saarinen: Yes, some possibility to make changes.
[2010/02/07 9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2010/02/07 9:59] Arria Perreault: ok
[2010/02/07 10:00] Arria Perreault: I will ask people by email or doodle
[2010/02/07 10:01] Carolyn Saarinen: Proper notice is the key, we don’t want a repeat of lst term’s last meeting.
[2010/02/07 10:01] Jamie Palisades: (no, to solomons q about re-voting on rules; they’re good until amended)
[2010/02/07 10:01] Pip Torok: true
[2010/02/07 10:01] Arria Perreault: does an member of the RA want a vote about date and time of meeting and rules of Procedure?
[2010/02/07 10:01] Patroklus Murakami: no!
[2010/02/07 10:01] Arria Perreault: I did not propose any change to this rules
[2010/02/07 10:01] Pip Torok: no ..
[2010/02/07 10:01] Arria Perreault: I have asked for something that is already written
[2010/02/07 10:02] Jamie Palisades: 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:02] Arria Perreault: ok. We move to next point: Update of the CDS group and the portraits
[2010/02/07 10:02] Carolyn Saarinen: Well “So it is written, so shall it be”.
[2010/02/07 10:02] Object whispers: mmmm…, tea!
[2010/02/07 10:03] Arria Perreault: About the group, I would appreciate that the CDS group is updated with the current members of the RA.
[2010/02/07 10:03] Arria Perreault: I have already organized the update of the portraits. I thank Sudane for the work she has already done
[2010/02/07 10:03] Jamie Palisades: arria, I can fix groups
[2010/02/07 10:03] Pip Torok: Arria, has the DPU delegate given you all the information you need?
[2010/02/07 10:04] Jamie Palisades: officers, actuallu
[2010/02/07 10:04] Pip Torok: *delegation
[2010/02/07 10:04] Carolyn Saarinen: Does ‘portraits’ mean on the message boards?
[2010/02/07 10:04] Arria Perreault: Every RA members has to send a notecard to Sudane to update or add the text
[2010/02/07 10:04] Jamie Palisades: and yes, sudane controls that device, caro
[2010/02/07 10:04] Arria Perreault: yes, Caro
[2010/02/07 10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok… I should just say that at least I’ve updated the forum group for the RA. All new members are in it, except Stui
(!) because I couldn’t find his account on the forums, does someone know what his account there is?
[2010/02/07 10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (btw any SC member can also do that hehe )
[2010/02/07 10:05] Arria Perreault: Good 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:05] Ariel Feden: he’ll be here shortly G
[2010/02/07 10:05] Rose Springvale: send him an inworld IM, he will get back to you
[2010/02/07 10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, Ariel!
[2010/02/07 10:05] Carolyn Saarinen: Ok, well, I think I’m generally recognisable, but my skin, hair etc changes frequently. I’ll update as often as Sudane likes.
[2010/02/07 10:05] Arria Perreault: there is also the CDS in-world group
[2010/02/07 10:05] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:05] Arria Perreault: wait Cindy
[2010/02/07 10:06] Arria Perreault: Crolyn has asked to speak about this point
[2010/02/07 10:06] Arria Perreault: then you have the floor
[2010/02/07 10:06] Cindy Ecksol nods
[2010/02/07 10:06] Arria Perreault: Caro?
[2010/02/07 10:07] Carolyn Saarinen: That was my minor point: I’m generally the same shape, but details vary, I will update as asked, but I can’t sure to be ‘current’
[2010/02/07 10:07] Carolyn Saarinen: *be sure*
[2010/02/07 10:07] Arria Perreault: ok 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:07] Arria Perreault: Cindy
[2010/02/07 10:07] Mikelo Serevi: this is not uncommon in SL, I’m sure it’s fine
[2010/02/07 10:08] Cindy Ecksol: thanks arria. just wanted to point out that members of the RA should update the status board that was installed last term in NFS
[2010/02/07 10:08] Arria Perreault: It’s partly done
[2010/02/07 10:08] Cindy Ecksol: everyone will need a profile notecards. pictures come from your SL profile so that part is easy
[2010/02/07 10:08] Cindy Ecksol: finished, thanks
[2010/02/07 10:08] Rose Springvale raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:08] Arria Perreault: thank you Cindy
[2010/02/07 10:09] Arria Perreault: Rose?
[2010/02/07 10:09] Carolyn Saarinen notes to update profile pic
[2010/02/07 10:09] Rose Springvale: thanks. As to the CDS group, there are also a number of new citizens, and citizens who are only in the AA group.. so we
need to take some time and go over the roles carefully. Jamie is in the process of doing this. Also
[2010/02/07 10:09] Arria Perreault: Thank you
[2010/02/07 10:10] Rose Springvale: if any RA member doesn’t belong to the AA group, and wished to have notice powers there, let me know
[2010/02/07 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh nice to know that, Rose 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:10] Arria Perreault: Thank also for this offer 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:10] Rose Springvale: yw
[2010/02/07 10:10] Solomon Mosely: powers to notice for any events?
or just events that occur in the cds or AA lands?
[2010/02/07 10:11] Rose Springvale: only cds and AA sol
[2010/02/07 10:11] Rose Springvale: unless something content specific
[2010/02/07 10:11] Arria Perreault: To close this administrative part, I want to thank you all people who have make the beginning of the 12th RA easy
[2010/02/07 10:11] Solomon Mosely: thank you 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks, Arria 😀
[2010/02/07 10:12] Arria Perreault: I did not find any items to continue from the prior RA. Keila has started a working group about the portal and other
websites of CDS, but she will report on a further meeting
[2010/02/07 10:13] Arria Perreault: I add that Keila would be happy to get inputs about that question
[2010/02/07 10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks for volunteering to do that, Keila! 🙂 )
[2010/02/07 10:13] Rose Springvale: she has a brief report i think
[2010/02/07 10:13] Rose Springvale: but may be afk
[2010/02/07 10:13] Rose Springvale: so i have it to paste if you wish
[2010/02/07 10:13] Arria Perreault: ok, Rose
[2010/02/07 10:13] Delia Lake also appreciates Keila volunteering
[2010/02/07 10:13] Rose Springvale: The Portal and Forum WorkGroup meeting was held on Friday. It was a bit of a brainstorming session to see what needs to be done. Two big issues are design (since it’s not easy to find info and navigate ) and content ( missing info, outdated info, additional info we would like
to see). We really need to get input from everyone, and particularly specifics as to what some of the problems are. EX: In the NFS covenant it says. ” As a
member you agree to abide by the rules and laws of the community as displayed on the CDS website, neufreistadt.info, as well as the terms of use of
this parcel of land, also found on that website.” That link takes you to a page that doesn’t exist anymore. I will post a more detailed summary posted to the
forum and we will welcome any and all constructive comments. As soon as I know my RL work schedule , we will schedule another meeting.
[2010/02/07 10:14] Rose Springvale: that’s her’s
[2010/02/07 10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2010/02/07 10:14] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Rose
[2010/02/07 10:14] Rose Springvale: yw
[2010/02/07 10:14] Arria Perreault: I move to the next point
[2010/02/07 10:15] Arria Perreault: Claude has remembered me to make an inaugural speech
[2010/02/07 10:15] Arria Perreault: I will start with it
[2010/02/07 10:15] Patroklus Murakami: speech! speech!
[2010/02/07 10:15] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[2010/02/07 10:15] Rose Springvale: hm, generally done at the ball 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:15] Arria Perreault: We are opening today the 12th Representative Assembly. It means 12 elections, several participating factions, many
representants who has given their time, many political changes. It mean that the democratical spirit which is the origin of our community is still living.
[2010/02/07 10:16] Arria Perreault: The democracy has two roots: participation of poeple and debate. Everyone can participate by voting, by being candidate,
by proposing their idea, by participating to workgroups or NGO, by observing what happens and by critizing, discussing, commenting.
[2010/02/07 10:16] Arria Perreault: The debate seems to me an important part of our democracy. I am sure that we can find better solutions for our community by debating. I aware that sometimes a democratical process can take time, but I am confident that we get at the end a solution poeple can leave with.
[2010/02/07 10:17] Arria Perreault: live* with
[2010/02/07 10:17] Arria Perreault: Our community has several challenges to face. Some are internal. We have recently merged two communities in one. We have more land, more citizen, more places of interests. This merging is a long process and, in my opinion, it is not yet totally achieved. It will one point the
RA will have to discuss. We have to see this as a chance to evolve as community, as democracy. It questions our definition of citizen. It questions our land
management. I see many signs of good will from both side, so I am confident.
[2010/02/07 10:18] Solomon Mosely: clap clap clap
[2010/02/07 10:18] Jamie Palisades applauds
[2010/02/07 10:18] Pip Torok applauds
[2010/02/07 10:18] Lilith Ivory: applause
[2010/02/07 10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bravo, Arria 😀
[2010/02/07 10:18] Arria Perreault: Several critics have been made regarding the way our community communicates. We have currently several tools and each correspond to a need. A process has been started: a workgroup is trying to analyse this question. The RA will have to hear about that too.
[2010/02/07 10:18] Timo Gufler claps
[2010/02/07 10:18] Ulysse Alexandre applauds
[2010/02/07 10:19] Solomon Mosely blushes
[2010/02/07 10:19] Arria Perreault: Some of our challenges come from outside. The CDS is itself in an evolving universe, Second Life. The way Linden Lab is
acting has an effect on us and we have to constantly observe what is going on. Of course, the real world has also effects on our community, especially the
economic situation, as we have to pay our tiers. In the same time, the virtual economy is not that bad. A lot of virtual goods are exchanged in SL or in
other platforms.
[2010/02/07 10:19] Arria Perreault: The composition of the RA is very new comparing to the past term, that was special because of the merging. I am
confident that the 12th RA represents all the citizen of CDS and will work in the interest of the community. I expect balanced debates with a good
argumentation. I expect also that we let citizen participate to the debate by publishing proposals early in the forums to give time for the discussion.
[2010/02/07 10:20] Arria Perreault: Thank you for your attention and let’s start the work of the 12th RA.
[2010/02/07 10:20] Patroklus Murakami: hear, hear!
[2010/02/07 10:20] Mikelo Serevi: 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:20] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[2010/02/07 10:20] Pip Torok: hear hear
[2010/02/07 10:20] Sylvia Tinkel: yay! *claps*
[2010/02/07 10:20] Ulysse Alexandre applauds
[2010/02/07 10:20] Imotali Antiesse: nods
[2010/02/07 10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn claps
[2010/02/07 10:21] Sonja Strom: ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫
[2010/02/07 10:21] Lilith Ivory: /applauds
[2010/02/07 10:21] Gelf Yalin: nods
[2010/02/07 10:21] Timo Gufler applauds
[2010/02/07 10:21] Arria Perreault: Thank you. I will move to the next point
[2010/02/07 10:21] Arria Perreault: RA discussion on this term’s priorities
[2010/02/07 10:22] Arria Perreault: Who will the floor?
[2010/02/07 10:22] Soro Dagostino: What is the proposal?
[2010/02/07 10:22] Pip Torok raises
[2010/02/07 10:22] Arria Perreault: Pip
[2010/02/07 10:22] Pip Torok raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:23] Arria Perreault: I ask RA member to express themselves about the priorities they see for our work
[2010/02/07 10:23] Arria Perreault: Pip, you have the floor
[2010/02/07 10:23] Pip Torok: answering a question in the “hustings” on thAT SUBJECT
[2010/02/07 10:24] Pip Torok: i proposed … the defiintion of a citizen … the smooth and friendly intodyction of new citizens AND a new constitution
[2010/02/07 10:24] Pip Torok: speaking for the DPU it remains that way
[2010/02/07 10:24] Pip Torok: finished
[2010/02/07 10:24] Arria Perreault: thank you
[2010/02/07 10:24] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:25] Arria Perreault: Patroklus, you have the floor
[2010/02/07 10:25] Patroklus Murakami: ty
[2010/02/07 10:25] Patroklus Murakami: i think the priority this term is to continue the merging of the two communities of Al Andalus and the former CDS
[2010/02/07 10:25] Patroklus Murakami: it’s begun but by no means ended
[2010/02/07 10:26] Patroklus Murakami: this term, should the parties so wish, the merger could end (the so-called ‘wasp clause’)
[2010/02/07 10:26] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t expect it to
[2010/02/07 10:26] Patroklus Murakami: but I think we need to work on making this one community, while respecting the diversity within it
[2010/02/07 10:26] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:26] Rose Springvale defines: wasp clause is a clause in the merger that allows either side to undo it in July 2010
[2010/02/07 10:27] Patroklus Murakami: ty rose
[2010/02/07 10:27] Rose Springvale: (lots of new people here)
[2010/02/07 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (which is good lol )
[2010/02/07 10:28] Arria Perreault: Are you done, Pat?
[2010/02/07 10:28] Patroklus Murakami: yes arria, ty
[2010/02/07 10:28] Arria Perreault: I guessed you have spoken in the name of CSDF
[2010/02/07 10:29] Arria Perreault: Does anyone from SEED want to say something?
[2010/02/07 10:29] Carolyn Saarinen: Only that the Wasp Clause…
[2010/02/07 10:30] Carolyn Saarinen: Is not so readily dismissed by some al-andalus citizens.
[2010/02/07 10:30] Carolyn Saarinen: SEED* was formed – not as an AA FAction…
[2010/02/07 10:30] Carolyn Saarinen: but as a progressive one…
[2010/02/07 10:31] Arria Perreault: Caro, I have asked you about the general priorities of the term 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:31] Carolyn Saarinen: failure of progress on ther issues that concern our… less conventiional citizens, will lead to discontent.
[2010/02/07 10:32] Ariel Feden winks at stui
[2010/02/07 10:32] Arria Perreault: Any other remark about the priorities for the term?
[2010/02/07 10:32] Carolyn Saarinen: very well, proper communications – no repeat of an RA meeting called without notice and with members proposing that
those who could not attend be denied a vote…
[2010/02/07 10:33] Lilith Ivory: and to enable people to become RA candidates without being in a faction 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:33] Carolyn Saarinen: The full aboliution of the faction system..
[2010/02/07 10:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m here !
[2010/02/07 10:33] Arria Perreault: Hi Stui
[2010/02/07 10:33] Pip Torok: Alrady settled Caro
[2010/02/07 10:33] Arria Perreault: I think you can pronounce you oath
[2010/02/07 10:33] Arria Perreault: and then join us
[2010/02/07 10:34] Arria Perreault: Delia will ask you
[2010/02/07 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Stui 😀
[2010/02/07 10:34] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui
[2010/02/07 10:34] Carolyn Saarinen: Until, it’s over turned because SEED* is utterly out-voted in this assembly Pip!
[2010/02/07 10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I, StuiChicanne Darkstone, having been elected as a Member of the Representative Assembly of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Confederation of Democratic
Simulators.
[2010/02/07 10:34] Delia Lake: thank you. Stui
[2010/02/07 10:34] Mikelo Serevi: Welcome, stui
[2010/02/07 10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Nothing is settled in CDS Pippet
[2010/02/07 10:35] Solomon Mosely raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:35] Arria Perreault: Welcome by us, Stui 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: because all things can change in accordance with the needs of citizens 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:35] Delia Lake: you may now join the rest of this term’s RA
[2010/02/07 10:35] Jamie Palisades smiles. Caro, minority factions here have OFTEN influenced things as much or more than majorities. Forgive me for
speaking up, but I;d not worry about that. As Arria said, there’s a lot of good will to work together here, and it;s a new term.
[2010/02/07 10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Delia do I have to ?
[2010/02/07 10:35] Solomon Mosely looks for a magic punctuation totouch…
[2010/02/07 10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I like sitting in strange places 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the rest of the RA like to sit on the pews
[2010/02/07 10:36] Solomon Mosely: i think that may be all a place needs stui…. 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:36] Mikelo Serevi: your sconce is open, stui
[2010/02/07 10:36] Arria Perreault: Stui, can you also consent to be recorded
[2010/02/07 10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I may sit on Pippets knee tho
[2010/02/07 10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I could
[2010/02/07 10:37] Arria Perreault: This point was an open discussion
[2010/02/07 10:37] Solomon Mosely raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:37] Arria Perreault: Solomon?
[2010/02/07 10:37] Sylvia Tinkel: this is so … dramatic
[2010/02/07 10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arria has a good view 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:38] Carolyn Saarinen: My money was o nthe big amphora 😉
[2010/02/07 10:38] Solomon Mosely: i’ve been in and out for a while, but has there been any talk of the cds producing anything?
[2010/02/07 10:38] Solomon Mosely: like , of value to Sl?
[2010/02/07 10:38] Arria Perreault: I am mainly looking the Chat local
[2010/02/07 10:38] Jeroma Wycliffe: Stui: cross your legs 😛
[2010/02/07 10:38] Solomon Mosely: be it events, education
[2010/02/07 10:38] Solomon Mosely: widgets,
[2010/02/07 10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh nice point, Solomon!!! very good 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I get told off for sitting on the recorder *LOL*
[2010/02/07 10:39] Solomon Mosely: but somthing to bring to the virtual table?
[2010/02/07 10:39] Patroklus Murakami has a suggestion in answer to solomon….
[2010/02/07 10:39] Rose Springvale looks at the clock .. and the agenda…
[2010/02/07 10:39] Solomon Mosely: thank you gwen
[2010/02/07 10:39] Mikelo Serevi: You mean besides democracy?
[2010/02/07 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders if Solomon is suggesting that we make that a priority for this term.
[2010/02/07 10:39] Solomon Mosely: yes
[2010/02/07 10:39] Solomon Mosely: very much besides something that most people already have in their lives
[2010/02/07 10:39] Arria Perreault: Pat?
[2010/02/07 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would definitely welcome that idea, Solomon! Totally so!!!
[2010/02/07 10:40] Solomon Mosely: i am gwen
[2010/02/07 10:40] Patroklus Murakami: good idea solomon. i think there’s lots we could do. i’ll keep my powder dry for now given the time….
[2010/02/07 10:40] Arria Perreault: yes, we cannot list everything now
[2010/02/07 10:40] Solomon Mosely: of course, i just hate the idea of us playing house here
[2010/02/07 10:40] Moon Adamant waves hello quietly to all
[2010/02/07 10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: MOON !!!!!
[2010/02/07 10:40] Solomon Mosely: and i know i have failed in my own duties at times, but i’d like to do better
[2010/02/07 10:41] Arria Perreault: this is the work of the factions and of the citizen to make proposals
[2010/02/07 10:41] Arria Perreault: and maybe we can discuss some of these points during the Town Halls
[2010/02/07 10:41] Arria Perreault: Any other remark on that point?
[2010/02/07 10:42] Rose Springvale raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:42] Arria Perreault: Rose?
[2010/02/07 10:42] Solomon Mosely: i would like to say that i will making that point agian and offering a couple ideas at the next town hall metting
[2010/02/07 10:42] Solomon Mosely: sorry rose
[2010/02/07 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good, good, Solomon :)))
[2010/02/07 10:42] Rose Springvale: thanks. In rl government we always have the issue of “unfunded mandates”… proposals passed without proper funding
[2010/02/07 10:42] Arria Perreault: great
[2010/02/07 10:42] Solomon Mosely: ha
[2010/02/07 10:42] Rose Springvale: in sl, that takes the form of proposals without proper volunteer support
[2010/02/07 10:43] Rose Springvale: i’d just ask the ra to make sure you spread the wealth 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear!
[2010/02/07 10:43] Solomon Mosely: point taken….
[2010/02/07 10:43] Jamie Palisades: Hear hear 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:43] Arria Perreault: that’s I think that it is a work of the factions and of the citizen and also the different NGO we have to make these proposal
[2010/02/07 10:44] Delia Lake agrees with Rose’s points
[2010/02/07 10:45] Sonja Strom agrees too
[2010/02/07 10:45] Arria Perreault: Anyone else? (the term is starting. Use also Town Halls and forums)
[2010/02/07 10:45] Arria Perreault: May I move to the next point?
[2010/02/07 10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I wonder if we can make some sort of incentive for volunteering 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:45] Solomon Mosely: well, weekly gathers to aye and nay are arranged and executed, perhaps some other sounds of progress could be mustered, form myself included
[2010/02/07 10:46] Mikelo Serevi: I trust the volunteers would have their own motivation
[2010/02/07 10:47] Arria Perreault: Any citizen has the right to propose something. He/she can find a member of the RA who can introduce his/her proposal
[2010/02/07 10:47] Solomon Mosely: eh…
[2010/02/07 10:47] Arria Perreault: I will move to the next point 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that the issue is that the same people do the same amount of work – i.e lots and everyone reaps the benefit…
[2010/02/07 10:47] Arria Perreault: RA Archivist
[2010/02/07 10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with incentive we could share the burdens 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:48] Arria Perreault: Since two terms, we don’t have any RA archivist
[2010/02/07 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙁
[2010/02/07 10:48] Solomon Mosely: what would they do?
[2010/02/07 10:48] Arria Perreault: Our law corpus is not updated in the forum
[2010/02/07 10:49] Mikelo Serevi: Hmm, that’s a problem
[2010/02/07 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “The RA Archivist is responsible for maintaining the public records of the RA including the posting of:

meeting transcripts
summaries of RA action and votes
texts of approved bills.

Transcripts and summaries should be posted within 72 hours of RA meetings.
Full texts of approved bills should be posted within five days.

Postings may be to the forums and/or wiki.”
[2010/02/07 10:49] Arria Perreault: The RA Archivist must update the law corpus with the RA decisions
[2010/02/07 10:49] Arria Perreault: Ty Gwyn 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2010/02/07 10:50] Arria Perreault: I have published an announcement in the forum to ask for volunteer
[2010/02/07 10:50] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2682
[2010/02/07 10:50] Arria Perreault: Still possible to answer 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:50] Mikelo Serevi: Maybe no one was able to find it 😀
[2010/02/07 10:50] Cindy Ecksol smiles
[2010/02/07 10:50] Rose Springvale: /smiles and drags mikelo to keila’s committee
[2010/02/07 10:50] Keila Forager: or maybe very few people read the forum
[2010/02/07 10:51] Arria Perreault: If someone is ready to do this work, he/she can tell now or answer in the forum
[2010/02/07 10:51] Solomon Mosely: i didnt look. i figured if there was an assigned post in exsistence, it would have been addresed by the RA to fill it
[2010/02/07 10:51] Mikelo Serevi: I might volunteer
[2010/02/07 10:52] Patroklus Murakami: happy to help whoever is appointed. i’ve done similar functions in the past
[2010/02/07 10:52] Mikelo Serevi: Unless someone else wants to do it
[2010/02/07 10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can’t do that… I am ideologically opposed to the forums
[2010/02/07 10:52] Jamie Palisades: Bravo. Arria, let me state my offer to help whoever takes the role, with digging through transcripts for the text of
laws, if they like.
[2010/02/07 10:52] Arria Perreault: The law code is in the portal, Stui
[2010/02/07 10:52] Rose Springvale: Mikelo would be great and i think he volunteered 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so is everything it seems
[2010/02/07 10:52] Rose Springvale: Does the archivist also post transcripts?
[2010/02/07 10:52] Arria Perreault: Mikel is volunteer
[2010/02/07 10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it’s a paid job, btw; the RA Archivist is a Civil Servant under the code of laws)
[2010/02/07 10:53] Mikelo Serevi: bonus
[2010/02/07 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Rose — yes
[2010/02/07 10:53] Arria Perreault: It would be fine too
[2010/02/07 10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: posting transcripts was mentioned I believe
[2010/02/07 10:53] Delia Lake: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[2010/02/07 10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it’s part of the role
[2010/02/07 10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so that’s on the forums isn’t it ?
[2010/02/07 10:53] Cindy Ecksol: no, stui….
[2010/02/07 10:53] Patroklus Murakami: portal and forums are separate
[2010/02/07 10:53] Mikelo Serevi: Starting with this meeting, I imagine
[2010/02/07 10:53] Cindy Ecksol: forums are on a different server
[2010/02/07 10:54] Arria Perreault: Can we consider that Mikelo is our new RA Archivist or do we have to elect him?
[2010/02/07 10:54] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[2010/02/07 10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh — and eventually elsewhere. We used to have the transcripts on a Wiki; we just pushed them to the forum when the Wiki became, uh, unmanageable
[2010/02/07 10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: whoa don’t get technical 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:54] Jamie Palisades smiles. Quick, approve him before he gets away!
[2010/02/07 10:54] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[2010/02/07 10:54] Patroklus Murakami: if there are no other volunteers, i propose that the RA approves Mikelo’s appontment as RA ARchivist
[2010/02/07 10:55] Solomon Mosely: congrats mik
[2010/02/07 10:55] Rose Springvale: yay Mikelo!
[2010/02/07 10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds that before Mikelo has second thoughts about it!
[2010/02/07 10:55] Arria Perreault: I propose we applause him
[2010/02/07 10:55] Sonja Strom: ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫
[2010/02/07 10:56] Lilith Ivory: applause 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:56] Sonja Strom: 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:56] Arria Perreault: /applause
[2010/02/07 10:56] Ulysse Alexandre applauds
[2010/02/07 10:56] Mikelo Serevi: ty
[2010/02/07 10:56] Jamie Palisades: 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:56] Timo Gufler applauds
[2010/02/07 10:56] Patroklus Murakami acclaims mikelo 🙂
[2010/02/07 10:56] Imotali Antiesse: clap clap
[2010/02/07 10:56] Arria Perreault: Thank you, very much
[2010/02/07 10:56] Gelf Yalin: applause
[2010/02/07 10:56] Cindy Ecksol raises hand again
[2010/02/07 10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks so much, Mikelo! You have almost a year of backlogs already….
[2010/02/07 10:57] Arria Perreault: I suggest that former RA Archivists or other people well involved in law work inform him
[2010/02/07 10:57] Mikelo Serevi: lucky me
[2010/02/07 10:57] Arria Perreault: I will make sure that he gets an access to the portal
[2010/02/07 10:57] Arria Perreault: The next point now
[2010/02/07 10:57] Arria Perreault: LRA pro tempore
[2010/02/07 10:58] Arria Perreault: We need to elect someone to replace the LRA in case she cannot come
[2010/02/07 10:58] Pip Torok: I propose Cindy Ecksol if she’s willing
[2010/02/07 10:59] Rose Springvale: shes’ not in RA lol
[2010/02/07 10:59] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[2010/02/07 10:59] Cindy Ecksol: nice thought Pip!
[2010/02/07 10:59] Pip Torok: drat!
[2010/02/07 10:59] Arria Perreault: We need a RA member
[2010/02/07 10:59] Patroklus Murakami: cindy did an excellent job last term
[2010/02/07 10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2010/02/07 10:59] Cindy Ecksol: I get to watch this term…..
[2010/02/07 10:59] Patroklus Murakami: but i think that it needs to be an RA member…
[2010/02/07 10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we get the little hammer
[2010/02/07 10:59] Patroklus Murakami: how about you, pip?
[2010/02/07 10:59] Patroklus Murakami: can we persuade you?
[2010/02/07 10:59] Delia Lake: “The Representative Assembly may elect one of its members to serve as Leader pro tempore who may act as Leader in the event of the absence of the Leader or if the position of Leader is vacant.”
[2010/02/07 10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I might pinch the hammer when Arria’s away
[2010/02/07 11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and run around banging it randomly
[2010/02/07 11:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar – Du, Dublin (80, 80, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[2010/02/07 11:00] Pip Torok: am not up to it physically (diabetes)
[2010/02/07 11:00] Mikelo Serevi doesn’t doubt it, stui
[2010/02/07 11:00] Patroklus Murakami: oh, i’m sorry to hear that pip
[2010/02/07 11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: “order! ORDER !”
[2010/02/07 11:00] Jamie Palisades: Hm. Stui with a hammer. Hm.
[2010/02/07 11:00] Arria Perreault: yes, me too
[2010/02/07 11:00] Cindy Ecksol thinks stui would be great
[2010/02/07 11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2010/02/07 11:00] Mikelo Serevi erases proposal for pip
[2010/02/07 11:01] Solomon Mosely is disappointed, pip would be perfect
[2010/02/07 11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any volunteers? 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:02] Rose Springvale: i think stui did
[2010/02/07 11:02] Cindy Ecksol wonders why Gwyndidn’t volunteer…..
[2010/02/07 11:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think Caro should
[2010/02/07 11:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:03] Carolyn Saarinen: I thought you had Stui?
[2010/02/07 11:03] Delia Lake thinks Stui does a good job of running his talking hours in AA
[2010/02/07 11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I could
[2010/02/07 11:03] Imotali Antiesse: yes for stui
[2010/02/07 11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I could keep my beady eyes open for people whispering
[2010/02/07 11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All righty! Motion to approve Stui as pro tem LRA?
[2010/02/07 11:04] Arria Perreault: Any second?
[2010/02/07 11:04] Carolyn Saarinen: second
[2010/02/07 11:04] Arria Perreault: ty you
[2010/02/07 11:05] Arria Perreault: RA members who want to have Stui as LRA pro tempore, please say aye
[2010/02/07 11:05] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 11:05] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[2010/02/07 11:05] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[2010/02/07 11:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don’t all jump at once 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:05] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2010/02/07 11:05] Timo Gufler: aye…
[2010/02/07 11:05] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 11:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: any more for any more ?
[2010/02/07 11:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *looks for nays*
[2010/02/07 11:06] Gelf Yalin: aye
[2010/02/07 11:06] Arria Perreault: nay?
[2010/02/07 11:06] Carolyn Saarinen: no nays, it seems
[2010/02/07 11:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:06] Rose Springvale: yay Stui!
[2010/02/07 11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ,)
[2010/02/07 11:06] Jamie Palisades smiles and claps
[2010/02/07 11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds
[2010/02/07 11:07] Mikelo Serevi: good, we needed one ‘nay’ just to make things interesting
[2010/02/07 11:07] Pip Torok: yes … tea, stu!
[2010/02/07 11:07] Arria Perreault: I abstains, because I am concerned
[2010/02/07 11:07] Keila Forager: Yay Stui 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:07] Lilith Ivory: APPLAUSE!
[2010/02/07 11:07] Pip Torok: *yea
[2010/02/07 11:07] Arria Perreault: Congratulation, Stui
[2010/02/07 11:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arria there is no need to be concerned
[2010/02/07 11:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if all else fails I’ll tell jokes for an hour
[2010/02/07 11:07] Patroklus Murakami: grtz 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:07] Arria Perreault: I’ll warn you when I need you replace me
[2010/02/07 11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Stui!
[2010/02/07 11:08] Rose Springvale: you will do a fine job stui, as always
[2010/02/07 11:08] Arria Perreault: Next point
[2010/02/07 11:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I will need a hammer
[2010/02/07 11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The New Guild shall be informed.
[2010/02/07 11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2010/02/07 11:08] Arria Perreault: We have to organize the election of the next Chancellor
[2010/02/07 11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes…
[2010/02/07 11:09] Rose Springvale looks for scimitar and considers the benefits of merging…
[2010/02/07 11:09] Arria Perreault: This election will happen in our next meeting
[2010/02/07 11:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well not alistair darling
[2010/02/07 11:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: he’s hopeless
[2010/02/07 11:09] Arria Perreault: I have tried to clarify who should make the announcement in the forums, me or SC
[2010/02/07 11:10] Delia Lake: if i may speak to this, Arria
[2010/02/07 11:10] Arria Perreault: please, Delia
[2010/02/07 11:10] Arria Perreault: Jamie has also asked to speak (I did not forget)
[2010/02/07 11:11] Delia Lake: firstly Article II of the Constitution addresses the election of Chancellor
[2010/02/07 11:11] Delia Lake: Section 5 – Chancellor Selection Process

The Chancellor of the CDS shall be selected by the Representative Assembly from among any CDS citizen who shall make application to the RA.

The application period shall begin when the membership of a new RA is named and end the first day of the new RA term. This provision shall come into force

with the next RA election following passage and ratification of this amendment. (ed. note: the Seventh RA)

The chancellor will serve a term ending with the election of the next chancellor by the incoming RA.

The Chancellor may not be elected to or serve on the Representative Assembly, nor serve on the Scientific Council. The Chancellor may hold a position in the

Artisanal Collective but may not vote therein.
[2010/02/07 11:11] Cindy Ecksol thinks “Oops!”
[2010/02/07 11:11] Keila Forager: Double oops..
[2010/02/07 11:11] Delia Lake: Secondly, I did send an email to my fellow SC members regarding this but have yet to have heard anything back
[2010/02/07 11:12] Ariel Feden: (leafs through constitutional index under C)
[2010/02/07 11:12] Mikelo Serevi: Thank you delia
[2010/02/07 11:12] Delia Lake: I am merely 1 of 5 and am not the Dean of the SC
[2010/02/07 11:12] Rose Springvale: danton is here 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:12] Delia Lake: yes
[2010/02/07 11:12] Arria Perreault: Thank you for your efforts, Delia
[2010/02/07 11:13] Arria Perreault: Jamie, you wanted to speak too
[2010/02/07 11:13] Jamie Palisades: thank you
[2010/02/07 11:13] Jamie Palisades: Arria, three transition matters
[2010/02/07 11:13] Jamie Palisades: the legal one first
[2010/02/07 11:13] Jamie Palisades: as I posted in the Forums, our constitution unfortunately closes eligibility for chancellor today, with the start of
term. I was informally told that the SC meant to announce the position last week, but forget. May I suggest that you have the RA formally act to reopen it
for a stated period of time, and then we post to the Forums about it?
[2010/02/07 11:13] Jamie Palisades: i thin it will be betetr process if you extend the time officially by a vote here.
[2010/02/07 11:14] Jamie Palisades: i’ll hold the other two, in case that one generates comment
[2010/02/07 11:14] Arria Perreault: ok
[2010/02/07 11:14] Patroklus Murakami nods in agreement with jamie
[2010/02/07 11:14] Pip Torok nods too
[2010/02/07 11:14] Gelf Yalin: nods
[2010/02/07 11:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *shakes his head*
[2010/02/07 11:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I like to do my own thing 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:15] Mikelo Serevi: I propose we vote to extend the period by as much as we extended the voting period.
[2010/02/07 11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Mikelo.
[2010/02/07 11:15] Arria Perreault: ty
[2010/02/07 11:15] Pip Torok: if jamies finished arria can we formally propose it?
[2010/02/07 11:15] Mikelo Serevi: And thx jamie, good idea
[2010/02/07 11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Jamie as well
[2010/02/07 11:15] Jamie Palisades: can we have the date stated here? I thikn Mikelo just made a motion, but that’s the “which” of February?
[2010/02/07 11:15] Pip Torok: (ah sorry)
[2010/02/07 11:16] Arria Perreault: he has two other points, he told
[2010/02/07 11:16] Jamie Palisades: shall i go now, or wait for the motion, arria?
[2010/02/07 11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, good point, Jamie
[2010/02/07 11:16] Arria Perreault: Jamie, can we vote on this now or the two other points are related?
[2010/02/07 11:16] Jamie Palisades: please go ahead and vot,e, and name a date
[2010/02/07 11:16] Arria Perreault: we move to move
[2010/02/07 11:16] Pip Torok: seconded
[2010/02/07 11:16] Arria Perreault: sorry
[2010/02/07 11:16] Patroklus Murakami: cut off date should be our next formal meeting in two week’s time. yes?
[2010/02/07 11:17] Mikelo Serevi: Ok, how about the 21st, our next meeting?
[2010/02/07 11:17] Arria Perreault: until when?
[2010/02/07 11:17] Patroklus Murakami: yes!
[2010/02/07 11:17] Rose Springvale: for the app period??
[2010/02/07 11:17] Pip Torok agrees
[2010/02/07 11:17] Arria Perreault: a day before the meeting
[2010/02/07 11:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: WEll it can’t be this sunday
[2010/02/07 11:17] Rose Springvale: the election was only extended one week
[2010/02/07 11:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that’s Valentines day
[2010/02/07 11:17] Arria Perreault: so we have the list of candidates
[2010/02/07 11:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why would it take 2 weeks to get people to say “I want to be chancellor”?
[2010/02/07 11:18] Jamie Palisades smiles. I heard three people say next meeting 21 feb. Is that the motion?
[2010/02/07 11:18] Arria Perreault: the motion is to extend the limit
[2010/02/07 11:18] Patroklus Murakami: arria has a point about the cut off date tho
[2010/02/07 11:18] Pip Torok: its more convoluted than that usually stui
[2010/02/07 11:18] Mikelo Serevi: Well they might be nervous, stui
[2010/02/07 11:18] Arria Perreault: I just want to know unteil when
[2010/02/07 11:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: convoluted – it’s a decision like any other
[2010/02/07 11:19] Patroklus Murakami: if it’s the day before, we know the candidates when we come to the meeting
[2010/02/07 11:19] Patroklus Murakami: if not. who knows? 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:19] Rose Springvale: sighs, always the last minute
[2010/02/07 11:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am the most indecisive person in RA as we all know
[2010/02/07 11:19] Arria Perreault: If we elect the Chancelor the 21, we have to set the limit few days before
[2010/02/07 11:19] Pip Torok agrees on the day before
[2010/02/07 11:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it takes me 9 hrs to decide upon what ice cream I want
[2010/02/07 11:19] Mikelo Serevi: I amend my motion to extend to the 20th
[2010/02/07 11:19] Patroklus Murakami: i propose sat 20 feb at 9am SLT as the cutoff
[2010/02/07 11:19] Arria Perreault: ty
[2010/02/07 11:19] Jamie Palisades: 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:19] Mikelo Serevi: the day before
[2010/02/07 11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: anyone want to consult the I ching ?
[2010/02/07 11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine in seconding Mikelo’s amended suggestion 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:20] Mikelo Serevi: I second pat’s for good measure
[2010/02/07 11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we should check the day is auspicious
[2010/02/07 11:20] Arria Perreault: First we vote on the amendment
[2010/02/07 11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* but gives some chicken for Stui to read its entrails — this is a *Roman* sim after all!
[2010/02/07 11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ewwww
[2010/02/07 11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I got excited when I heard chicken
[2010/02/07 11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I thought it was dinnertime
[2010/02/07 11:21] Mikelo Serevi: wb timo
[2010/02/07 11:22] Arria Perreault: who agrees on sat 20 feb at 9am SLT as limit for candidacy for Chancellor? Please say aye or nay
[2010/02/07 11:22] Timo Gufler: thanks, sorry, I crashed
[2010/02/07 11:22] Mikelo Serevi: aye!
[2010/02/07 11:22] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Timo Gufler: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Gelf Yalin: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2010/02/07 11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye spy
[2010/02/07 11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (wb Timo!)
[2010/02/07 11:23] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[2010/02/07 11:23] Arria Perreault: aye
[2010/02/07 11:23] Jamie Palisades smiles
[2010/02/07 11:23] Arria Perreault: now we can vote on the amended motion:
[2010/02/07 11:24] Arria Perreault: who agree that we extend the period of election for the Chancellor until the next RA meeting, 21th feb? please say aye or nay
[2010/02/07 11:24] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Gelf Yalin: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Timo Gufler: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[2010/02/07 11:25] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[2010/02/07 11:26] Danton Sideways: That’s a good solution 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: present 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:26] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[2010/02/07 11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[2010/02/07 11:26] Arria Perreault: aye
[2010/02/07 11:26] Arria Perreault: I will publish an announcement after this meeting in the forum
[2010/02/07 11:26] Jamie Palisades: 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:26] Jamie Palisades: may I?
[2010/02/07 11:27] Arria Perreault: you two other points, Jamie (then Cindy)
[2010/02/07 11:27] Jamie Palisades: Ok, thanks, the two others are faster. #2 I have updated your roles. See what title you have as an RA member (“CDS

Gov’t”, same as SC) when you are using the C.D.S. group, and let Sudane or me know if there are any problems. Also, Arria is in the “presiding officers”

group, to which I also will add Stui, which gives you some additional control, in some locations — ejections and all that. Finally ..
[2010/02/07 11:27] Jamie Palisades: let me publicly, especially, thank Delia Lake for being a very helpful and communicative SC repreentative throughout

this term transition process. I’d invite the RA to join me in that thanks too .. and at the proper time, to adopt a resolution thanking the departing RA

members (Wasp, Soro, Sonja, Joaquin, Cindy, Michal etc.) for their service.
[2010/02/07 11:27] Jamie Palisades: done, thanks Arria
[2010/02/07 11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear!
[2010/02/07 11:27] Patroklus Murakami: here, here 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:28] Patroklus Murakami: hear, hear. even 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:28] Pip Torok: hear hear!!!!
[2010/02/07 11:28] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Jamie
[2010/02/07 11:28] Arria Perreault: I need a motion for that
[2010/02/07 11:28] Carolyn Saarinen salutes
[2010/02/07 11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *WOO HOO FOR DELIA !!*
[2010/02/07 11:28] Pip Torok: so move
[2010/02/07 11:28] Patroklus Murakami: second
[2010/02/07 11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds
[2010/02/07 11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, lol
[2010/02/07 11:29] Mikelo Serevi: to #1, thx, to #2, hear hear!
[2010/02/07 11:29] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[2010/02/07 11:29] Arria Perreault: Ty you
[2010/02/07 11:29] Delia Lake: ty 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:29] Gelf Yalin: hear hear
[2010/02/07 11:29] Danton Sideways: woot
[2010/02/07 11:29] Lilith Ivory applauds
[2010/02/07 11:30] Arria Perreault: We vot now on a resolution to thank the departing RA members. By saying aye, you thank them for their work. Please vote:
[2010/02/07 11:30] Cindy Ecksol waits patiently for hubub to subside
[2010/02/07 11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Timo Gufler: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Lilith Ivory: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Gelf Yalin: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Pip Torok: aye
[2010/02/07 11:30] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[2010/02/07 11:31] Ariel Feden: Jamie’s sat down!!
[2010/02/07 11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[2010/02/07 11:31] Arria Perreault: Caro?
[2010/02/07 11:32] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[2010/02/07 11:32] Sonja Strom bows
[2010/02/07 11:32] Arria Perreault: aye
[2010/02/07 11:32] Arria Perreault: Motion carries
[2010/02/07 11:32] Arria Perreault: Thank you 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:33] Arria Perreault: we can appluase them 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:33] Lilith Ivory smiles
[2010/02/07 11:33] Mikelo Serevi: ♪♫♥ Applauds!!! ♥♫♪
[2010/02/07 11:33] Lilith Ivory: applause
[2010/02/07 11:33] Danton Sideways: yay
[2010/02/07 11:33] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[2010/02/07 11:33] Jamie Palisades claps
[2010/02/07 11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bravo, bravo 🙂
[2010/02/07 11:33] Imotali Antiesse: clappps
[2010/02/07 11:33] Cindy Ecksol bows and smiles thank you
[2010/02/07 11:33] Pip Torok: bravo
[2010/02/07 11:33] Rose Springvale: bravo!!
[2010/02/07 11:33] Arria Perreault: /applauds
[2010/02/07 11:33] Keila Forager: ♪♪♪♪>~~~APPLAUSE~~~<

Permalink.

Agenda

I. ADMIN
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
d. RA Transcripts

II. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)
–

III. NEW ITEMS
a. Resolution to thank the Exectutive Team of the former Term
b. Election of the Chancellor
c. Report of the Portal/Forum Workgroup
d. Report of the Town Hall Meeting

IV. Concerns of RA Members

V. Concerns of Citizens

VI. Adjournment
Transcription

[8:54] Carolyn Saarinen: It could mean ‘caution rezzing in prgress’ but I believe it means ‘peace be upon you’ Timo 😉
[8:54] Arria Perreault: Hi Mikelo
[8:54] Mikelo Serevi: morning
[8:54] Timo Gufler: Ok, good… 🙂 It could have mean’t something more hostile… lol
[8:55] Carolyn Saarinen: Some of us Andalusians flatter ourselves with a bit of Arabic 😉
[8:56] Arria Perreault: Hi Carolyn
[8:56] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I’ve observed that carolyn
[8:56] Mikelo Serevi: Oh, arria, can I be added to the list of people who get a transcript in email?
[8:56] Arria Perreault: Hi Junius
[8:57] Junius Inaka: hello
[8:57] Arria Perreault: Yes, Mikelo. I had this in mind
[8:57] Mikelo Serevi: I’ve been filtering my logs, but it takes a while
[8:58] Arria Perreault: I can’t edit the recorder
[8:58] Mikelo Serevi: Well, for next time maybe
[8:58] Arria Perreault: Hi all 🙂 welcome to the meeting
[8:59] Mikelo Serevi: Hi 🙂
[8:59] Rose Springvale: no notice was sent to Al Andalus group,
[8:59] Rose Springvale: i think you have the power to do that
[8:59] Rose Springvale: hi Fern
[9:00] Jeroma Wycliffe: Fern 🙂
[9:01] Mikelo Serevi: Which groups need a general notice? Just AA and CDS?
[9:01] Rose Springvale: arria sent one to CDS
[9:02] Carolyn Saarinen: ‘no notice to al-Andalus’ why does this sound familiar?
[9:02] Arria Perreault: Does anybody know how I can edit the recorder?
[9:02] Arria Perreault: I will send to AA too
[9:02] Mikelo Serevi: I can send one, if I have access. I was added to AA this week
[9:02] Carolyn Saarinen: shall we have a secret meeting with no 7 day votes?
[9:03] Carolyn Saarinen: It was a popular notion a little while ago
[9:03] Mikelo Serevi: What was carolyn, secret meetings?
[9:03] Patroklus Murakami: hi everyone 🙂
[9:03] Mikelo Serevi: Hi pat
[9:03] Ulysse Alexandre: hello Pat
[9:03] Pip Torok: hi pat
[9:04] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh yes Mikelo, RA meetings with no notice. Just before the election.
[9:05] Mikelo Serevi: Ours are quite regular now, it seems. I’m quite likely to forget about a secret meeting
[9:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who’s knees can I sit on this week ?
[9:05] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Hi
[9:05] Patroklus Murakami: 🙂
[9:06] Mikelo Serevi: Hi muhammed, stui
[9:06] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Hi Mikelo
[9:06] Pip Torok: mine are bomy this week Stu
[9:06] Pip Torok: *bony
[9:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s ok Pip
[9:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: soaper is planned in to sit on your knee
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Shanghai Lil !
[9:07] Mikelo Serevi: I’m not really into pirates, myself
[9:07] Lilith Ivory: hi Stui 🙂
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m not just any Pirate
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m jolly
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: Oh, I’m sure
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo is doing Pirate outreach
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: yar
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: wow interesting effect
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m being posessed by Mikelo
[9:09] Mikelo Serevi: Dont stress too much about the transcript, arria
[9:10] Arria Perreault: Does anyone hear from Gwyn?
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: every second week
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on a sunday
[9:11] Arria Perreault: we can start. I hope she will join us
[9:11] Arria Perreault: I open the meeting
[9:12] Arria Perreault: please clic on the recorder to consent to be recorded
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: Since Gwyn was so keen to havwe me denied a 7 day vote on my own proposal, I don’t see why we can’t follow hher example and have a meeting without her!
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: Or is the fix not solidly in?
[9:13] Arria Perreault: We have started without her
[9:13] Arria Perreault: Agenda now
[9:14] Arria Perreault: the agenda is available in the amphora
[9:14] Arria Perreault: any change to the agenda?
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: none from me 🙂
[9:15] Fern Leissa: Yes sorry.
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’d like to say that we miss Gwenyth
[9:15] Fern Leissa: One thing I wanted to bring up was the issue of maintaining covenants
[9:16] Fern Leissa: I’m concerned that we not destroy what has already been build so capabably by many before us
[9:16] Arria Perreault: Fern, I will ask for concerns from citizen. We will take this under this point.
[9:16] Fern Leissa: In our attempt to recruit new people and new activities
[9:16] Fern Leissa: I’d also like to express a wish to discuss sim appropriate activities within sims
[9:17] Fern Leissa: Sorry
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’d like to raise a discussion point
[9:18] Arria Perreault: Thank you Fern. I will gib^ve you the word under the point Citizen concerns
[9:18] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: related to the order of each RA meeting
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I think Citizens concerns have probably always come at the wrong end of the meeting
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in that we invite concerns at the end
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but they may relate to the subjects we discuss
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: plus
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are here to serve the community
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the concerns get the least discussion time 🙂
[9:19] Mikelo Serevi: I think it makes sense to do it in this order
[9:19] Keila Forager: Here here Stui :))
[9:20] Mikelo Serevi: It allows us to take care of business, and then hear concerns
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it doesn’t quite prioritise the community needs
[9:20] Arria Perreault: Stui, do you propose to add a new point in the agenda: “discussion about the order of the agenda”?
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the community is bigger than the sum of the RA members
[9:20] Mikelo Serevi: We also have an unstructured meeting every other week now
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oui
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I do 🙂
[9:20] Arria Perreault: any second for this proposal?
[9:20] Carolyn Saarinen: Did you know that stui ? 😉
[9:21] Pip Torok: second
[9:21] Arria Perreault: ty Pip
[9:21] Arria Perreault: RA members who agree to to add a new point in the agenda: “discussion about the order of the agenda” say aye
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: can we discuss this under IV – concerns of RA members?
[9:21] Pip Torok: aye
[9:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye
[9:22] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[9:22] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:22] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: aye to discussion under item IV… but not before!
[9:22] Carolyn Saarinen: you don’t get to re-word the motion, just aye or nay
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: nay then
[9:24] Arria Perreault: I say nay
[9:25] Arria Perreault: Imotali?
[9:25] Imotali Antiesse: ah sorry was distracted…aye
[9:26] Pip Torok: ah …
[9:26] Arria Perreault: Carolyn?
[9:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Caro aye’d
[9:26] Lilith Ivory: yup
[9:27] Arria Perreault: 7 aye 3 nay . motion carries
[9:27] Carolyn Saarinen: yes i did
[9:27] Arria Perreault: thank you
[9:27] Arria Perreault: Can we go with this updated agenda?
[9:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: possibly
[9:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: this time
[9:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who knows about next time 🙂
[9:28] muhammedyussif Wikinger: afk
[9:29] Arria Perreault: we go further
[9:29] Mikelo Serevi: When we say updated, we mean the discussion point is added for this time, right?
[9:29] Arria Perreault: Next point: Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
[9:29] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[9:29] Soro Dagostino: Every item
[9:29] Arria Perreault: we have a point from Fern under Citizen Concerns
[9:29] Arria Perreault: Soro?
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: You asked for speakers.
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: I plan to speak on every matter
[9:30] Arria Perreault: yes,. Do you have a special point?
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: Madame?
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: he just wants to speak on every point
[9:31] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:31] Arria Perreault: any other person?
[9:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I tend to interject when I feel the need
[9:31] Arria Perreault: if it not the case, next point
[9:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: rather than from the outset
[9:31] Arria Perreault: Stui, you are rA member
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: RA can do that, stui
[9:32] Arria Perreault: transcripts of the meeting
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s convenient for me then isn’t it ?
[9:32] Arria Perreault: there was a post in the forum about that question
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: I didn’t see it
[9:32] Arria Perreault: first, I would like Mikelo get the transcript per mail, but I can’t edit the recorder
[9:33] Arria Perreault: I will appreciate if someone can help me
[9:33] Mikelo Serevi: cindy is the owner, she can do it
[9:33] Arria Perreault: I will ask her then
[9:34] Mikelo Serevi: I can wait since we’re in the meeting now
[9:34] Lilith Ivory: Hi Arias
[9:34] Arria Perreault: is there stil any question about that: color script for example?
[9:34] Mikelo Serevi: Did the forum posting have a concern?
[9:34] Arias Ahren: Hi everybody.
[9:34] Arias Ahren: Sorry I am late.
[9:34] Arria Perreault: I just want to know if everything is ok now
[9:34] Arias Ahren: The treleporting link kept taking me to a dark corridor.
[9:35] Carolyn Saarinen: well, I’d like to go back to colour coding the transcripts for the sake or legibility
[9:35] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: Well, the color script split the posting into four parts
[9:36] Carolyn Saarinen: there were more colours than that
[9:36] Carolyn Saarinen: what’s wrong?
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: colour is nice but it’s additional work for our RA archivist 🙂 I think it’s more important that they are posted in a timely fashion. colour is an added ‘nice to have’ i think
[9:37] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh is this being debated i nfaction Ims?
[9:37] Mikelo Serevi: I skipped working with it since I was in a hurry
[9:37] Carolyn Saarinen: rather than in this meeting openly?
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: not being debated in CSDF IMs. we’re not having any discussion there
[9:37] Pip Torok: nor in DPU either …
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: can’t speak for other factions 🙂
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: i move that we progress to the next item on the agenda
[9:38] Pip Torok: second
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I rather wonder myself on this matter
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: call me a perfectionist in my work
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but when was it a choice of the one with the job as to how to deliver the service ?
[9:39] Arria Perreault: motion seconded
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the employer sets the criteria to work by
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not the employee
[9:40] Arria Perreault: RA members please vot: aye or nay to move this item to the next meeting
[9:40] Pip Torok: aye
[9:40] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: unless qualified by the body in charge
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: nay
[9:40] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[9:40] Carolyn Saarinen: nay
[9:40] Lilith Ivory: nay
[9:41] Timo Gufler: nay
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: crashed 🙁
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: aye to moving to the next agenda item
[9:41] Mikelo Serevi: wb pat
[9:41] Arria Perreault: Pat, we are voting on your motion to move this point to the next meeting
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: that’s not quite my motion :-0
[9:42] Soro Dagostino: 🙂
[9:42] Soro Dagostino: Finally
[9:42] Arria Perreault: Gelf?
[9:42] Carolyn Saarinen: I am sceptical that the colour coding of transcripts needs to be done manually, perhaps – I’m seculating here – we shoould ASK!
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: i moved that we progress to teh next item on the agenda i.e. end discussion on the RA transcripts and get on with teh meeting
[9:43] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:43] Pip Torok: and i seconded that motion
[9:43] Arria Perreault: RA members do you confirm your votes?
[9:43] Soro Dagostino: Help is here, here’s Cindy
[9:43] Mikelo Serevi: yes
[9:43] Pip Torok: yes
[9:43] Cindy Ecksol: hi all….what’s needed?
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[9:44] Cindy Ecksol: (or was that a joke)?
[9:44] Imotali Antiesse: yes
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Is there software to colour code the transcripts Cindy?
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: common sense and clarity mostly
[9:44] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:44] Gelf Yalin: sorry lots of lag
[9:44] Mikelo Serevi: Cindy, no one has access to edit the e-mail list for the recorder to add me
[9:44] Cindy Ecksol: yes, gwyn wrote a script tha tI’ve been using, I posted info in response to your posting on the forum
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Right.
[9:44] Lilith Ivory: I think Gwyn started to talk about that
[9:44] Cindy Ecksol: I agree, it helps a log
[9:44] Cindy Ecksol: *lot
[9:45] Cindy Ecksol: gwynethllewelyn.net/colour-code/
[9:45] Carolyn Saarinen: There we go children, no need for taantrums!
[9:45] Arria Perreault: Timo, Caro, Stui, Lilith, do you confirm yourvote?
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have said Nay
[9:45] Carolyn Saarinen: yes
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that was my vote
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it still is
[9:46] Carolyn Saarinen: but I’ve actually gone ahead, asked a question and got an answer, cos I’m a little clever-clogs!
[9:46] Lilith Ivory: I confirm
[9:46] Timo Gufler: aye instead of nay from me
[9:46] Mikelo Serevi: I’d like to remind people that I’m a volunteer… for the moment
[9:47] Arria Perreault: and I say aye
[9:47] Arria Perreault: / aye, 3 nay – motion carries
[9:47] Arria Perreault: 7 aye
[9:48] Arria Perreault: we move to the next point
[9:48] Arria Perreault: a. Resolution to thank the Exectutive Team of the former Term
[9:48] Arria Perreault: I have tried a make a short summary. Please correct me if I am wrong
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: hear, hear!
[9:49] Arria Perreault: Jamie Palisades has served for 3 terms as Chancellor. It is the longest period for this position in the history of the CDS.
[9:49] Arria Perreault: It was a period of expansion for CDS, as we have made the merging with the Al Andalus Community. The Monastery sim was also added with his support.
[9:49] Arria Perreault: Jamie had a Team to help him in his tasks:
[9:50] Arria Perreault: I have tried to make a list. I hope I did not forget anybody
[9:50] Arria Perreault: Rose Springvale, PIO and also AA Treasurer
[9:50] Arria Perreault: As PIO, she was also helped for a part of this period by Brian Livingstone who worked mainly on the portal
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone shouts: YA OR JAMIE !
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Sudane Erato, CDS Treasurer
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *F
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Aliasi Stonenberger, Archivist
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Sonja Strom and Lilith Ivory as caretakers
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Did I forget someone?
[9:51] Arria Perreault: sorry 🙂
[9:52] Arria Perreault: We can thank all these persons for the time and the energy they have given to the life of our community.
[9:52] Arria Perreault: For this reason, I propose that we vote a resolution to thank them officially.
[9:52] Pip Torok: second
[9:52] Arria Perreault: I need a second
[9:52] Arria Perreault: thank you Pip
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: ahem 🙂
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami clutches pearls
[9:53] Arria Perreault: RA members, please say aye if you agree to vote a resolution to thank the Executive Team
[9:54] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:54] Pip Torok: aye
[9:54] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[9:54] Lilith Ivory: abstain as I’m on the list 🙂
[9:54] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:54] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye 😉 (sorry!!!!)
[9:54] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE
[9:55] Arria Perreault: aye
[9:56] Arria Perreault: I propose we applause them now
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami claps
[9:56] Pip Torok: second
[9:56] Mikelo Serevi: Thx to all 🙂
[9:56] Mikelo Serevi: Applauds!!!
[9:56] Gelf Yalin: clap clap
[9:56] Pip Torok: APPLAUSE!
[9:56] Delia Lake:
[9:56] Timo Gufler claps
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it’s ok I’ll save my clapping for private
[9:56] Arria Perreault: claps, claps 🙂
[9:57] Imotali Antiesse: claps 10x
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that those mentioned know my appreciation without the show
[9:57] Cindy Ecksol wonders if we’re clapping for the exec team….or the streaker 🙂
[9:57] Arria Perreault: thank you
[9:58] Arria Perreault: We can move to the next point: Election of the Chancellor
[9:58] Arria Perreault: I will start with a comment about the list of candidates
[9:59] Arria Perreault: I have published a post in the forum to announce the position with the deadline
[10:00] Soro Dagostino: Deadline?
[10:00] Arria Perreault: end of the application period
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: yes, we had extended the deadline to yesterday
[10:01] Arria Perreault: until the end of this application period, I have received only one application, a notecard from Sonja Strom
[10:01] Arria Perreault: I have published the list in the forum
[10:02] Keila Forager: Hmmm I looked today and didn’t see it
[10:02] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2692
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *wonders aloud why no one wants the job*
[10:03] Arias Ahren: Good question
[10:03] Arria Perreault: few time later, I was asked by some citizen about the candidacy of Jamie Palisades
[10:03] Cindy Ecksol smiles
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: I think most of the available people are on the RA atm
[10:03] Keila Forager: Wonders how Sonja will be able to run two communities..
[10:03] Delia Lake: Madam LRA, if I may, as a member of the SC I feel it is my duty to point out that the Constitution does not specify how a CDS citizen should make application to the RA.
[10:04] Arria Perreault: let me finish
[10:04] Arria Perreault: They told me they were sure he had declared his intention in the forums
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where’s the majik word ?
[10:04] Soro Dagostino: Nominations fro the floor are in order.
[10:05] Arria Perreault: I did not found any clear declaration in the forums from Jamie
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *wonders why Jamie is not here to talk about his decision*
[10:05] Lilith Ivory: two weeks ago he seemed to be the only candidate..
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would have thought he would be
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right…
[10:05] Carolyn Saarinen: Maybe no-one told him?
[10:06] Arria Perreault: in order to avoid any issue, I have asked him directly
[10:06] Pip Torok: fwiw i heard nothing in an IM of 3 hours ago
[10:06] Solomon Mosely: fwiw…?
[10:06] Ariel Feden: for what it is worth
[10:06] Pip Torok: (for what it’s worth)
[10:07] Solomon Mosely: ahh, thanks
[10:07] Arria Perreault: Jamie has answered me that he doesnt do not plan to seek re-election
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when a person doesn’t declare clearly for a job that he has done for three terms
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: one must wonder why
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what has changed ?
[10:07] Solomon Mosely: …cuz he just did it for three terms?
[10:07] Arria Perreault: Jamie has answered me that he doesnt plan to seek re-election*
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I doubt that
[10:07] Solomon Mosely: but point taken, stu
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami thinks it’s difficult to speculate on teh motives of someone who isn’t here to answer for himself…
[10:07] Mikelo Serevi: Not declaring is clear enough
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Jamie is committed to CDS
[10:08] Timo Gufler: three terms must have been very tiresome to him
[10:08] Mikelo Serevi: I have a very high opinion of Sonja and her abilities 😉
[10:08] Timo Gufler: me too
[10:08] Soro Dagostino: I don’t
[10:08] Arria Perreault: so now we have only one candidate
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: tut tut soro
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well not judging by his cmmittment prior to now
[10:08] Mikelo Serevi: That should make the vote straightforward
[10:09] Arria Perreault: we will proceed to the election
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: he seemed far from tired wth it up to two weeks ago
[10:09] Pip Torok: I propose we move to candidate’s speech
[10:09] Carolyn Saarinen: ‘Election’?
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: an election would surely require two or more choices ?
[10:09] Cindy Ecksol laughs behind her hand at the term “election”
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: second
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Sonja…. it’s all yours
[10:09] Arria Perreault: thank you Pat
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm… may I have a word?
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if I may bow you can take your position
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry perhaps not
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: i think that jamie was also elected unopposed? maybe more than once?
[10:10] Arria Perreault: ok Gwyn
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and we can short cut the stageshw
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: before someone makes a musical of it
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:10] Keila Forager: This was from a post in the forum…I did indicate that I am willing to serve again, but would be happy to see a competent new leader as well.
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, since we have a SC member here…
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: People have complained that we don’t follow due process, but we are in this case.
[10:10] Keila Forager: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2686#p14215
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: “CDS Election – Broadway style”
[10:10] Soro Dagostino: Railroaded
[10:10] Imotali Antiesse: 🙂
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: the RA set the process at it’s previous meeting. it has been followed and we have one candidate
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if the SC accepts that post (Keila just pasted it) as a willingness to run for condaidate?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If yes, we have 2 candidates
[10:11] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, Jamie has written to me his position
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If not, well…
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why don’t we start this Chancellorship with a fresh coat of whitewash ?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah ok
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: out wth the old etc
[10:11] Arria Perreault: I think we have to respect him
[10:11] Carolyn Saarinen hands out brushes
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we already dropped colour coding
[10:11] Gelf Yalin: I m offended by the lack of respect being afforded to Sonja
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: Publish the note ms RA
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: now on to ushering in
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: me too gelf
[10:12] Pip Torok: move to vote on tabled motion
[10:12] Arria Perreault: please
[10:12] Arria Perreault: we have a motion
[10:12] Carolyn Saarinen: ooh ‘respect’
[10:12] Arria Perreault: there is a second
[10:12] Carolyn Saarinen leafs through CDS dictionary
[10:12] Pip Torok: yes pats
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: perhaps on this conveyorbelt I’m alrready set on the way out too
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: for being outspoken
[10:13] Mikelo Serevi: pip, the vote is the election?
[10:13] Carolyn Saarinen: are you still here? 😉
[10:13] Arria Perreault: RA members who agrees to move to the election, please say aye
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I propose a motion
[10:13] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:13] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:13] Pip Torok: no … to candidates speech
[10:13] Timo Gufler: aye!!
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to postpone this election
[10:13] Pip Torok: aye
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: until Jamie speaks at RA
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: the motion it to move to candidate’s speech
[10:13] Arria Perreault: (it belong to the process of election, Pip 🙂
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: about his candidacy
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:13] Mikelo Serevi: we’re in a motion already, stui
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: *is
[10:13] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:14] Carolyn Saarinen: Hey if Pat can re-write a motion mid-vote, Stui can propse one. Or is there another tule I missed?
[10:14] Mikelo Serevi: Is that a nay, caro?
[10:14] Soro Dagostino: Here he is
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: perhaps we need to approve a decorating budget too
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone shouts: welcome back to JAMIE !
[10:15] Lilith Ivory: we should wait for Jamie
[10:15] Carolyn Saarinen: It’s a nay
[10:15] Lilith Ivory: I want to hear him first
[10:15] Gelf Yalin: we are in a vote
[10:15] Arria Perreault: (election_ speech of the candidate, question from RA members, vote)
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m thinking about my response
[10:15] Carolyn Saarinen: seconds Stui’s motion
[10:15] Timo Gufler: Jamie told to Arria his decision already
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t think we can nest a motion like that
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: So she says
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then bringing Jamie here will solve the question
[10:16] Gelf Yalin: were are we on the votes for the current motion?
[10:16] Pip Torok: we definately cant nest motion
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: The posting in the forum is fairly clear
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then
[10:16] Lilith Ivory: sigh
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we can applaud him in person
[10:16] Cindy Ecksol: no…he’s offline again
[10:16] Keila Forager: He just went offline
[10:16] Gelf Yalin: can we get back on point please?
[10:17] Pip Torok: agree with gelf
[10:17] Arria Perreault: I have casted 4 votes
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m still considering
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s a tough choice
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I trust you will be patient with me
[10:17] Timo Gufler: timeout…
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If Jamie is having difficulties logging in, but if he intends to come to the RA, then, well, I agree we should wait…
[10:18] Keila Forager: Just because he wasn’t “seeking” reelection, doesn’t mean he isn’t willing to serve if elected…according to the post I read
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: stui, filibustering is really not on
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: do you outrank me Timo ?
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … within limits
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: As long as you aren’t being deliberately disruptive, stui
[10:18] Timo Gufler: I think we should go on
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and do you Pat know my mindbtter than me ?
[10:18] Lilith Ivory: Jamie is be know for having troubles to sty online on sundays
[10:18] Pip Torok: agree with Timo
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: It looked like a crash to me
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: @ Lillith
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: i have seen disruption before and this is what it looks like
[10:18] Cindy Ecksol notes that jamie is back online
[10:19] Timo Gufler: why are you so worried about Jamie, when he has told his decision
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: Pat 😉
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat I will have my time to think
[10:19] Pip Torok hopes the disruption is not deliberate
[10:19] Imotali Antiesse: Yes, and LRA already said so too
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, he said he wasn’t running
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: We only have Arria’s statement
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if I need it 🙂
[10:19] Gelf Yalin: the other parties made no effort to have a candidate…that isn’t our fault…please stop disrupting the process and lets move on
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: No proof
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: And we have a competant and willing candidate
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: Hearsay
[10:19] Gelf Yalin: we are not in the debate…we are in the vote
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is it so bad that I want clarity ?
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: Publish the note
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I proposed a motion
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi agrees with gelf
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that was disregarded
[10:20] Cindy Ecksol thinks that we’re now in the “faction-free” CDS since the start of the term….
[10:20] Gelf Yalin: yes it is bad… stui…you want the opposite of clarity
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: because we’re in a motion, stui
[10:20] Timo Gufler: for me it seems some are not trusting in our LRA
[10:20] Ariel Feden: raises hand
[10:20] Arria Perreault: I would to cast other votes
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: it is a shame that jamie did not make clear that he was not standing but. since he has not said he is, and is not here to say he wants to. we must assume he is not a candidate
[10:20] Lilith Ivory: TPing Jamie in now
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I want clarity upon the decision of Jamie
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: hopefully we will now get it
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: before I will elect anyone
[10:20] Lilith Ivory: Hi Jamie :))
[10:20] Keila Forager: Hi Jamie 🙂
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: drum rolls… and Jamie pops in 😉
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: tht’s common sense
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not disruption
[10:21] Pip Torok wishes the voting to be completed
[10:21] Lilith Ivory: great to see you here 🙂
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, i hope you can restore some civility to these proceedings
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am equal to every one of you
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you won’t speak for me
[10:21] Carolyn Saarinen: and civil with it Stui
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Jamie, we are in the middle of a vote to move to the election
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I speak for myself
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when I have the facts
[10:21] Arria Perreault: I have informed the Assembly about your decision
[10:22] Timo Gufler: some here seem not to trust in word of LRA
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Yep
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’re all stalling to see if you’re a candidate or not!
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: hi- I am not, if sonjas acceptable to RA: told arria yesterday.
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: crashy iPhone again :p sorry
[10:22] Lilith Ivory: I’d like to hear from yourselof what was going wrong
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: thank you, arria, I apologize for not being able to talk with, er, my usual speed
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that could be one way of looking at it
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or it could be that we don’t understand what would motivate Jamie not to stand again
[10:23] Jamie Palisades: let’s be grateful we have a competent candidate, hmm?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and thats a different thing
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: That’s what I said..
[10:24] Pip Torok: shall we continue with the _vote_ ….?
[10:24] Arria Perreault: thank you Jamie
[10:24] Gelf Yalin: I did not read in the CDS constituion where we are required to have s eapch from the outgoing presdient that he doesn’t want to run….
[10:24] Arria Perreault: I have casted 4 votes, we continue
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: well, i deeply apologize for causing any confusion – and I agree with Gelf 🙂
[10:24] Carolyn Saarinen: I didn’t read that we couldn’t ask a question of the only person able to answer it
[10:25] Gelf Yalin: he just did, so move on
[10:25] Timo Gufler: yes, please
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: ty jamie. you will see that we passed a unanimous vote of thanks for the work of the Executive team for the last term (and to your for the last three terms)
[10:25] Mikelo Serevi: I’ve voted, who’s left?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: *you
[10:25] Jamie Palisades: caro, simply, as I said in the forums, 3 terms is plenty for any one person. and thank you, Pat.
[10:25] Lilith Ivory: sigh aye then
[10:26] Arria Perreault: Do you have a speech, Jamie? We have voted a resolution to thank you and your teams. I would like to finish the vote first
[10:26] Carolyn Saarinen: Ok
[10:26] Jamie Palisades: vote first, for sure
[10:27] Arria Perreault: please vote
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: nay
[10:27] Timo Gufler: aye
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: i voted aye, before
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that it’s not an election
[10:27] Mikelo Serevi: It’s legal
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s an appointment
[10:28] Gelf Yalin: no more debate…vote
[10:28] Arria Perreault: we are voting now
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: stui, jamie was elected unopposed to. more than once
[10:28] Pip Torok: aye
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: *too
[10:28] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:28] Imotali Antiesse: whatever, AYE
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that was before my time on RA
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we amended the wording I’d say aye
[10:29] Arria Perreault: Mikelo and Caro?
[10:29] Arias Ahren: Abstain
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: I said aye
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I said aye too
[10:29] Carolyn Saarinen: abstain
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: It was just about ten feet up the discussion
[10:29] Arria Perreault: I say aye
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and for the record it has nothing to do with the candidate
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I haven’t an issue with Sonja as I’m sre she knows
[10:30] Arria Perreault: 9 aye, 1 nay, 1 abstains
[10:30] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:31] Mikelo Serevi: Congratulations, Sonja 🙂
[10:31] Arria Perreault: I will first give the floor to Jamie, for his speech. Then I will give the floor to SOnja, to present herself as candidate. Then RA members will have the opporunity to ask questions to the candidate
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: simply, thanks to you all for your service and friendship; I’m proud to be a part of our very successful experiment in sel governance; i’m staying in CDS; will have final reports posted to the Forums & look forward to helping transition matters over to Sonja who had my warmest congratulations … and when’s the party?
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (not yet, Mikelo lol the motion was jujst to allow the candidates to present themselves )
[10:32] Keila Forager: on the 27th 🙂
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: (I know, oops)
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (tee hee )
[10:32] Jamie Palisades: 🙂 I would be a hypocrite if I did not find one-candidate elections appropriate 🙂
[10:33] Arria Perreault: are you done, Jamie?
[10:33] Mikelo Serevi: lol jamie
[10:33] Keila Forager: let him finish..
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Jamie
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (a sepulcral silence sets in at the RA while Jamie furiously types on his iPhone… )
[10:36] Mikelo Serevi: (dang that sparkle)
[10:36] Lilith Ivory giggles
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: ha- I was done, thx
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I thought! haha
[10:36] Solomon Mosely: lol
[10:36] Arria Perreault: 8:29] Zeus Argus est connecté)
[8:29] Mikelo Serevi est connecté)
[8:29] pixivor Allen est connecté)
[8:29] Thinkerer Melville est connecté)
[8:29] Moon Adamant est connecté)
[8:29] Satir DeCuir est connecté)
[8:29] Alexia Carnell est connecté)
[8:29] Lizzo Dreamscape est connecté)
[8:29] Pip Torok est connecté)
[8:29] Second Life: Your object ‘Object’ has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Jamie Palisades from parcel ‘C.13’ at Colonia Nova 115, 187 due to parcel owner return.
[8:30] Connexion au chat vocal du Monde en cours
[8:30] Connecté)
[8:34] Mathoni Zuhrah est connecté)
[8:38] Moon Adamant est dénnecté10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (but I remained silent nevertheless)
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: whoops
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: what was that, Arria??
[10:37] Arria Perreault: a copy-past of the transcript 😉
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: a french lesson
[10:37] Arria Perreault: sorry
[10:37] Lilith Ivory: ?
[10:37] Solomon Mosely sccots to make room for the hat entrance
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Qui qu’a vu coco ?
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: copy/paste malfunction 😉
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: Le prim ejecte becase I fixed the temporary floor in that open CN parcel 😉
[10:38] Arria Perreault: If Jaie is finished, I propose we appluase him again
[10:38] Arria Perreault: Jamie*
[10:38] Pip Torok: second!
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: I’m all for that
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[10:38] Gelf Yalin: claps
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: Applauds!!!
[10:38] Timo Gufler claps!!
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: applauds
[10:38] Pip Torok: applause ……..
[10:39] Ulysse Alexandre: /applauds
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if I applaud any more at RA my hands are going to chap
[10:39] Imotali Antiesse: clapsss
[10:39] Delia Lake:
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn heartily applauds
[10:39] Carolyn Saarinen: /claps
[10:39] Keila Forager: Yay Jamie :))
[10:39] Arria Perreault applauds Jamie
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: thanks so much, and can I officially congraulate Sonja yet?
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: not just yet!
[10:39] Arias Ahren: Thanks for what almost everyone here sees as magnamous service, Jamie
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, no. Sonja is supposed to do a presentation speech;
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’re supposed to ask her questions
[10:40] Arria Perreault: let us finish 🙂
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and *then* we vote.
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: 🙂
[10:40] Solomon Mosely: i propose we stop clapping
[10:40] Arria Perreault: Now I will the word to Sonja, to present herself as candidate
[10:40] Pip Torok: lol
[10:40] Arria Perreault: Sonja, you have the floor
[10:40] Sonja Strom: excuse me Stui 🙂
[10:41] Keila Forager: Hi Sonja 🙂
[10:41] Sonja Strom: Hello everybody!
[10:41] Sonja Strom: Thank you all for coming out on such a laggy Sunday to be here.
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: Hi Sonja!
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *waves*
[10:41] Sonja Strom: 🙂
[10:41] Sonja Strom: Thank you for your service to this community in the virtual world of Second Life.
[10:42] Sonja Strom: Particularly with thanks to outgoing Chancellor Jamie Palisades.
[10:43] Sonja Strom: He has given three terms – over one and a half years – of good service to this Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[10:44] Sonja Strom: With that being clear, I will move on to why I am standing here before you.
[10:44] Sonja Strom: Most of you know me fairly well I think…
[10:44] Sonja Strom: but I can elaborate on a few aspects of my being here.
[10:45] Sonja Strom: In my life I most enjoy helping people to have things be how they want.
[10:45] Sonja Strom: In RL I work in customer service,
[10:45] Sonja Strom: in SL I have a consulting firm, headquartered in Neufreistadt.
[10:46] Sonja Strom: Most of the reason why I am in SL is because I like how it enables people from all over the world,
[10:46] Sonja Strom: and in all kinds of social and economic statuses,
[10:47] Sonja Strom: to work together in ways they might very well never do in any other way.
[10:47] Sonja Strom: This perspective is what led me to the CDS in the first place,
[10:47] Sonja Strom: and it is what keeps me wanting to be a part of this community.
[10:48] Sonja Strom: Now I have been in the CDS for over 3 years –
[10:48] Sonja Strom: I have served in the Representative Assembly for three terms.
[10:48] Sonja Strom: I have been a trustworthy citizen of the CDS,
[10:49] Sonja Strom: being quite open about my perspectives on things in the open forums,
[10:49] Sonja Strom: being willing to let everybody know my thoughts and views as a matter of public record.
[10:49] Sonja Strom: I have been a Caretaker of the CDS,
[10:50] Sonja Strom: and a Faction Leader.
[10:50] Sonja Strom: I have also been active in Second Life in general.
[10:50] Sonja Strom: I used to own a very highly respected dance club,
[10:51] Sonja Strom: and have helped to build other communities as well as this one.
[10:51] Sonja Strom: The way I want to continue to help to build this one is in partnership with all of you 🙂
[10:51] Sonja Strom: Thank you very much for your trust in me.
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you!!
[10:51] Sonja Strom bows
[10:52] Mikelo Serevi claps heartily
[10:52] Timo Gufler claps
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[10:52] Fern Leissa: claps
[10:52] Imotali Antiesse: claps claps claps
[10:52] Pip Torok cheers heartily
[10:52] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Sonja
[10:52] Lilith Ivory applauds
[10:52] Keila Forager claps
[10:52] Ulysse Alexandre applauds
[10:52] Solomon Mosely: yay!, clapity clap clap
[10:52] Cindy Ecksol: .mem claps
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: I miss contakt! (the club)
[10:52] Sonja Strom: 🙂
[10:53] Arria Perreault: Now I will I will give to RA members the opportunity to ask questions to the candidate
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have 2 questions lol
[10:53] Arria Perreault: who will the floor?
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: greedy gwyn 🙂
[10:54] Arria Perreault: thank you, Gwyn
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: always, Pat 🙂
[10:54] Arria Perreault: you have the floor
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami raises hand to ask question later
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is very simple..
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s usual (not obligatory) that Chancellors will present their teams for the Executive,
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have a question too
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since at least events are the heart and soul of the CDS, I wonder if you have a name in mind for PIO?
[10:55] Arria Perreault: I will give you the floor, Stui, after SOnj’as answer
[10:55] Sonja Strom: This is a good question Gwyneth.
[10:56] Arria Perreault: Pat first, then Stui 🙂
[10:56] Sonja Strom: The CDS has had very good PIOs in the past,
[10:57] Sonja Strom: and I would be happy if they would continue to support this community in the way that is enjoyable for them…
[10:57] Carolyn Saarinen: One from me too.
[10:57] Arria Perreault: ok, Caro
[10:57] Sonja Strom: if they would like to do so, and if anybody else would like to participate and help to make this community a fun and successful one,
[10:57] Sonja Strom: I would be happy to hear from them.
[10:58] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, your second question
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The second one is more tricky lol
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since you’re also a community manager of Arosa, Sonja,
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if you’re splitting your time between the CDS and Arosa,
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or planning for Arosa to join the CDS at some point too?
[11:00] Solomon Mosely took that as a given
[11:00] Sonja Strom: When I first left Help Island I looked for a mountain community…
[11:00] Sonja Strom: and did not really find one
[11:01] Sonja Strom: I thought about starting a mountain village somewhere,
[11:01] Sonja Strom: but then found Neufreistadt
[11:02] Sonja Strom: I decided to see if I could help direct Neufreistadt toward my vision
[11:02] Sonja Strom: but found my doing that was not widely popular in the CDS
[11:03] Sonja Strom: there were a few people who also wanted it to be an alpine town,
[11:03] Sonja Strom: but more who did not really want mountains to be made around it or near it
[11:03] Sonja Strom: so I began looking for if there could be a way I could move forward with my original concept,
[11:04] Sonja Strom: and I founded Arosa,
[11:04] Sonja Strom: intending for it possibly to become the first mainland area of the CDS,
[11:04] Sonja Strom: what in the CDS Constitution is described as a franchulate.
[11:05] Sonja Strom: I like both the CDS and Arosa, and I see no reason why they can not work together.
[11:05] Sonja Strom: I believe most of us here are involved in other aspects of SL outside of the CDS,
[11:05] Keila Forager: But for you , could be a conflict of interest..
[11:05] Sonja Strom: and they can all compliment each other.
[11:06] Sonja Strom: Keila, I don’t see it as a conflict of interest, any more than your property next to Arosa is for you.
[11:06] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Sonja. Patroklus now
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: ty arria
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: my question is about completing the merger between CDS and Al Andalus
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: i think we have completed some of the process but, in some ways, it still feels like we are a bit separate
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: what would you do to complete teh realisation of the merger? to find truly one community which respects the traditions of both?
[11:08] Sonja Strom: Patroklus, I agree this is a very important issue in the CDS at the moment,
[11:08] Sonja Strom: and for this term.
[11:09] Sonja Strom: One thing I see is,
[11:09] Sonja Strom: the community will need to decide what it wants for itself,
[11:09] Sonja Strom: and I, as a public servant, will do what I can to help the community to realise its dreams.
[11:10] Sonja Strom: From my perspective,
[11:10] Sonja Strom: there are two major issues that would be helpful to have resolved this term…
[11:11] Sonja Strom: One is for the definition of who is a CDS citizen to be agreed upon,
[11:11] Sonja Strom: so everybody knows what their status is in this regard.
[11:12] Sonja Strom: Another is for the relationship of the Al Andalus sims within the CDS to be agreed upon in a way that leaves as many of the residents as possible happy with this relationship.
[11:13] Sonja Strom: I believe mostly these issues will be something for the RA to work on this term, but I will do whatever I can to be helpful.
[11:13] Sonja Strom: Thank you for working together on them 🙂
[11:13] Rose Springvale wonders what is left to be determined
[11:13] Arria Perreault: Thank you. Stui has a question.
[11:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: What does AA mean to you and to your vision of CDS? How does it feature in the future of the Greater body of the CDS? How do you plan to assist the community there ? What is the issues for you in the life of AA? And what does AA bring to CDS ?
[11:14] Sonja Strom: Stui, it seems to me there is more than one question there…
[11:14] Arria Perreault: 4 questions 😉
[11:14] Sonja Strom: but I will address your concerns.
[11:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wasn’t elected for my mathematical capabilities
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just my ability to speak
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: he he
[11:15] Timo Gufler: 🙂
[11:15] Sonja Strom: As I said earlier my interest in participating in Second Life is mostly community building,
[11:15] Sonja Strom: and helping people to have things be how they want them to be…
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we can hold lessons in counting
[11:15] Sonja Strom: this is my persspective on Al Andalus.
[11:16] Sonja Strom: Al Andalus is a beautiful place,
[11:16] Sonja Strom: representing a rich history in RL and in SL.
[11:16] Sonja Strom: Although it used to be in competition with the CDS I always supported it,
[11:16] Rose Springvale: lol
[11:16] Sonja Strom: and went there to events and so on,
[11:16] Sonja Strom: because I liked it,
[11:17] Sonja Strom: and I liked the people involved in it.
[11:17] Sonja Strom: When the opportunity came up for Al Andalus to join the Confederation of Democratic Sims,
[11:18] Sonja Strom: I was in the RA, and I supported this from the beginning to where we are now.
[11:18] Sonja Strom: My thinking about supporting Al Andalus is that it is now a valuable part of the CDS.
[11:19] Sonja Strom: It seems to me we can make this community even greater than it is already,
[11:19] Carolyn Saarinen: Valuable how, to echo Stui’s last point?
[11:19] Sonja Strom: which mostly will come out of our participation in it.
[11:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if my memory serves correct, CDS representation at events wavered after a point…
[11:20] Sonja Strom: Carolyn, do you think I have not expressed that I think Al Andalus is a valuable part of the CDS?
[11:22] Arria Perreault: Carolyn, you had a question too?
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my question relates to my wondering whether AA will become the CDS toy that got boring
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙁
[11:23] Arria Perreault: Stui, you got an answer from SOnja
[11:23] Sonja Strom: My perspective on that Stui,
[11:23] Sonja Strom: (thanks Arria)
[11:23] Sonja Strom: is that Al Andalus is a community,
[11:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was inviting more detail to be given
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not asking for a response
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: merely passing comment
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as is my right
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am a citizen
[11:24] Sonja Strom: yes Stui,
[11:24] Carolyn Saarinen: My original question was keila’s
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and a member of the TA
[11:24] Arria Perreault: thank you, Caro
[11:24] Sonja Strom: but is it a question of me, or of the RA?
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: The Territorial Army? 😉
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or does this LRA prefer my thoughts not be explored ?
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami is puzzled 🙂
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: RA
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: oh, i see 🙂
[11:25] Rose Springvale: is this meeting timed?
[11:25] Cindy Ecksol thought it might be the “T&A Club”
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: anyone can typo
[11:25] Arria Perreault: I suggest Sonja answers Stui’s last question
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s down to you to be a pedant
[11:25] Mikelo Serevi isn’t sure what stui is getting at
[11:25] Gelf Yalin: I think Stui the wording of your question is once again offensive…that somehow the CDS thinks of AA as a “toy”
[11:25] Sonja Strom: I will be happy to give my own answer, if that is what is wanted.
[11:25] Gelf Yalin: your question is not productive and is simply an attach
[11:25] Gelf Yalin: attack
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my wording is direct
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: nothign more or less than that
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: offence is personal choice
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: politics is about action
[11:26] Arria Perreault: Sonja has the floor for an answer, Stui
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, I like that, Stui 🙂 very true hehe
[11:26] Keila Forager: Yay Stui 🙂
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I ask directly so that I get the answer
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami waits to hear sonja…
[11:27] Keila Forager: Sonja, your answers are general and vague, at least to me. I think he wants specifics..
[11:27] Sonja Strom: Stui, you are asking me to answer your question of how I view Al Andalus within the CDS?
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yes and it’s relevance
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and how you will make it as much a focus as any of the sims
[11:29] Sonja Strom: My perspective is that the whole of the CDS is a community,
[11:29] Sonja Strom: made up of three different thematic communities
[11:29] Sonja Strom: one of which is Al Andalus.
[11:29] Sonja Strom: The community of Al Andalus is made up of people –
[11:29] Sonja Strom: People who bring a lot to the CDS,
[11:30] Sonja Strom: including culture, values, ideas, concepts,
[11:30] Sonja Strom: and anything else they choose to bring to it from their participation in it.
[11:30] Pip Torok notes that Stui raises the possibility of one community _toying_ with another … and is not happy
[11:31] Sonja Strom: The value of our community comes from our participation, which is why I am here standing before you.
[11:31] Arria Perreault: thank you Sonja for your answers
[11:31] Arria Perreault: anything to add?
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: **’`*`’** Stui **’`*`’**
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is pleased that he is not here to please people but to represent the community and it’s diversity without the need for sugar coating for those easily offended
[11:31] Sonja Strom: Have I answered your question Stui?
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well to a point
[11:32] Arria Perreault: Ok
[11:32] Sonja Strom: What part would you like for me to address more?
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the distance between detail and generic
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi notes that people’s time is not invaluable
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn would suggest a more complete answer on the forums; we *do* have a time limit on these sessions
[11:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when one stands under an umbrella he cannot record specific raindrops
[11:33] Arria Perreault: Stui, I am watching the clock …
[11:33] Timo Gufler seconds Gwyn
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: yes, i will need to go soon. it woudl be good to make progress
[11:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but he would notice one in the eye if he had no umbrella
[11:33] Arria Perreault: Time to move
[11:33] Gelf Yalin: you are onI motion to close discussion
[11:33] Gelf Yalin: I motion to close discussion
[11:34] Rose Springvale: wow, lots of people still in line …
[11:34] Pip Torok: second
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds
[11:34] Sonja Strom: One thing I can see there Stui is, the New Guild can work together with Al Andalus to make for more and better building by sharing the talents of builders accross the CDS.
[11:34] Arria Perreault: we vote on the motion
[11:34] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:34] Timo Gufler: aye
[11:34] Pip Torok: aye
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:34] Gelf Yalin: aye
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:34] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:35] Rose Springvale: this is the motion to cut off discussion? sorry, no one restated
[11:35] Gelf Yalin: yes
[11:35] Mikelo Serevi: yes, as the discussion is going nowhere
[11:35] Mikelo Serevi: not to sugar coat it 😉
[11:35] Cindy Ecksol shrugs
[11:35] Arria Perreault: Caro, Stui, Lilith?
[11:35] Rose Springvale: i see. thanks .. thought the citizens had a chance to ask questions. but w’e
[11:36] Cindy Ecksol notes a lot of people with questions still in line….including that no one asked the citizens if they have questions
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: we’ve been here two and a half hours folks!
[11:36] Rose Springvale: so ?
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’d probably be rather silly to adjourn after opening the meeting asking for the concerns of a citizen to be heard first and then for none to be heard at all
[11:36] Gelf Yalin: thinks that most of these questions are better for other forums
[11:36] Lilith Ivory: I don’t think we should cut off disussing while there still are questions
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: all because we haven’t had time to serve the purpose
[11:37] Gelf Yalin: this has gone on long enough
[11:37] Patroklus Murakami: if so much time hadn’t been wasted earlier…
[11:37] Pip Torok agrees with Gelf
[11:37] Gelf Yalin: then vote nay if you disagree
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: waste is a matter of opinion
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gelf has a point; if you think we should go on, just vote nay
[11:37] Arria Perreault: Caro, Stui, Lilith, your vote, please
[11:37] Solomon Mosely: like taking a vote to say thank you?
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: nay
[11:37] Lilith Ivory: nay
[11:38] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn tickles Caro
[11:38] Sonja Strom: I am here at the discretion of the RA, but one point I could maybe bring up is, the Chancellor does not determine the course of direction for the CDS…
[11:38] Arria Perreault: 8 aye, 3 nay, motion carries
[11:38] Sonja Strom: The Representative Assembly does.
[11:38] Arria Perreault: e move to the election now
[11:38] Arria Perreault: we*
[11:39] Lilith Ivory: how can we elect Sonja while there are open questions?
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[11:39] Gelf Yalin: the vote on ending discussion is over
[11:39] Carolyn Saarinen: sorry briefly afk
[11:40] Gelf Yalin: time for election
[11:40] Carolyn Saarinen: not that it makes much difference eh?
[11:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s ok Caro we’ve been ushered out already
[11:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: your question was out of time
[11:40] Sonja Strom: If the Representative Assembly does not want me to serve, I will stand down.
[11:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: owing to my curiosity
[11:40] Gelf Yalin: yes you are always the victim poor Stui
[11:40] Timo Gufler: there were many good questions and answers, it’s time to move on now
[11:40] Sonja Strom: If that is the case, then there is no point in my continuing to be here.
[11:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I motion for a vote to apologise to you
[11:41] Gelf Yalin: I vote for Sonja
[11:41] Arria Perreault: I call a vote in favour or against the election of Sonja Strom as Chancellor of CDS
[11:41] Gelf Yalin: second
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we did 45 mins of Q&A… the agenda mentioned 20 mins for the whole election process
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: i vote for sonja
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I vote for Sonja
[11:41] Pip Torok: I vote for Son ja
[11:41] Rose Springvale: smile, so the citizens are not heard, again.
[11:42] Mikelo Serevi: I vote for Sonja
[11:42] Timo Gufler: I vote for Sonja also
[11:42] Lilith Ivory: aye for Sonja
[11:42] Rose Springvale: we get the nomination on the forums one day before, nad no opportunity to discuass
[11:42] Rose Springvale: sigh
[11:42] Carolyn Saarinen: abstain
[11:42] Imotali Antiesse: aye for Sonja
[11:42] Keila Forager: It’s the way of the RA Rose 🙁
[11:42] Solomon Mosely: seriously?
[11:42] Solomon Mosely: this is ok?
[11:43] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: That is not true, rose, we followed the established process
[11:43] Rose Springvale: ha
[11:43] Rose Springvale: the constitution had a process
[11:43] Rose Springvale: this RA has changed process each meeting so far
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami notes that ppl were a little more gracious when jamie was elected
[11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I give AP the right to pass the verdict without my voting on account that it will be done regardless of the logic or my response
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: i would hope we could return to some civility in proceedings
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ^^
[11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and regardless of the questions of the RA
[11:44] Arria Perreault: I vote for Sonja
[11:44] Rose Springvale: jamie didn’t have conficts of interest that have not been discussed, sorry pat. where ar the tender flowers now?
[11:44] Carolyn Saarinen digs out her CDS dictionary and looks ‘gracious’…
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: all because the agenda says 20 mins
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we must be more careful in future to study the agenda
[11:44] Pip Torok: They’re here, Rose
[11:44] Gelf Yalin: you didn’t ask questions Stui, only made attacks for the purpose of being disruptive…..next time how about organizing yourself and putting forth and candidate….
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it might be more convenient to the RA to serve it’s purpose then
[11:44] Arria Perreault: Congratulation, Sonja 🙂
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: semantics Gelf
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: your view
[11:44] Gelf Yalin: rather than taking the easy road and being a troll
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: Congratulations, Sona
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: your opinion
[11:45] Keila Forager: congrats Sonja
[11:45] Arria Perreault: Please, this is an important moment for our community
[11:45] Sonja Strom: Thank you 🙂
[11:45] Timo Gufler: Congratulations, Sonja!!
[11:45] Carolyn Saarinen: Whoah, fight fight fight!
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: congratulations, Sonja 🙂
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: yes, congratulations sonja 🙂 i look forward to working with you this term
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: I also feel stui was being disruptive
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the beauty of democracy is we all have the right to speak
[11:45] Gelf Yalin: congrats Sonja!
[11:45] Tanha Core: congats, have a successful term
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo if you feel that way
[11:45] Junius Inaka: claps!
[11:45] Ulysse Alexandre congratulation Sonia
[11:45] Gelf Yalin: and you also have the right to be outvoted and lose
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: Yay Sonja!
[11:45] Rose Springvale: Thank you stui, for representing those of us hw didn’t get a chance to speak
[11:45] Gelf Yalin: cplas!
[11:45] Pip Torok: congratulations !!!!!
[11:45] Keila Forager: Stui was asking for a concise answer, not general and vague..
[11:45] Rose Springvale: gelf, welcome to the community
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: outvoted
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that would be a joke
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: could we try to keep things polite? we don’t need to mar the beginning of a new chancelor’s term in this way
[11:46] Gelf Yalin: thank you Rose!
[11:46] Carolyn Saarinen: yeah Gelf, that’s democracy in action. Or something
[11:46] Jamie Palisades claps. Please join me in warmly congratulating Sonja and pledging to help her do a good job for us all 🙂
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that we voted prematurely
[11:46] Arria Perreault: Please, we have a Chancellor now
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with a lack of facts
[11:46] Cindy Ecksol applauds for Sonja
[11:46] Keila Forager claps for Sonja..
[11:46] Solomon Mosely: the issue isnt with sonja, but this process
[11:46] Mikelo Serevi: We’re lucky to have Sonja, and I honestly don’t see what the problem is
[11:46] Sonja Strom: For all who still have questions about my views and thoughts, I will stay here to talk with them.
[11:46] Arria Perreault: I ask for some solemnity for her oath
[11:46] Keila Forager: we have always had a chancellor, just a new one now..
[11:46] Rose Springvale: well, good. i hope you never have to find out
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: a chancellor i elected after a campaign and a choice
[11:47] Carolyn Saarinen: ‘gracious’ ‘civility’ ‘polite’ Is that you Pat or an imposter?
[11:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not in the short cut of one and the absence of the other
[11:47] Arria Perreault: Please
[11:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Democracy must be the term for representation of the people in accordance to the stop watch
[11:48] Gelf Yalin: Stui just accept that you lost and move on
[11:48] Gelf Yalin: its okay
[11:48] Gelf Yalin: we can all be freinds now
[11:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Gelf do not patronise me
[11:48] Fern Leissa: claps for Sonja
[11:48] Delia Lake: congratulations Sonja
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: Sonja is taking the oath here…
[11:48] Arria Perreault: Sonja, we will ask you to swear to respect our Constitution
[11:48] Gelf Yalin: no I am being frank
[11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you had the option to do as I did
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please… with due respect, and not wishing to feel that I’m ‘interrupting’ anything… can we go on with the ceremony?
[11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I did not break any rules
[11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but others here did
[11:49] Sonja Strom: Thanks again everybody for your support in making this a wonderful community for all of us.
[11:49] Solomon Mosely: wait, how can we continue with this spirit in the room?
[11:49] Pip Torok supports Gwyneth
[11:49] Soro Dagostino: Its fated Solomen
[11:50] Arria Perreault: Sonja, will you respect our Constitution in your position of Chancellor?
[11:50] Arria Perreault: I, NAME , having been elected as Chancellor of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[11:51] Solomon Mosely: i mean, i’m not against sonja, i’m no lawyer, but something feels very wrong here
[11:51] Soro Dagostino: No agenda posted
[11:51] Sonja Strom: I will be happy to make this declaration,
[11:51] Arria Perreault: Please
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soro: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2709
[11:51] Solomon Mosely: i’m flashing bac to florida
[11:52] Sonja Strom: but there are citizens here who don’t want me to?
[11:52] Arria Perreault: The RA elects the Chancellor, SOnja
[11:52] Sonja Strom: If this is the case, I can stand down.
[11:52] Solomon Mosely: i dont think you’re specifically at issue here sonja
[11:52] Arria Perreault: the citizen have elected us
[11:53] Mikelo Serevi: I think Sonja deserves more respect than this
[11:53] Timo Gufler: absolutely!
[11:53] Gelf Yalin: yes!
[11:53] Sonja Strom: The only reason why I would want to serve the community in the position of Chancellor is to help.
[11:53] Sonja Strom: If my help is not wanted, then I can go elsewhere.
[11:53] Solomon Mosely: its terrible you’re caught standing in this, and i admire your grace through it, but there are several respected, conficting opinions here
[11:53] Pip Torok: imo that opinions the one by the overwhelming majority
[11:54] Patroklus Murakami: i’m afraid i must go. congratulations to sonja. i think we need to work on building bridges and understanding why some ppl are so upset with this result. but sonja is our new chancellor and should be given our support
[11:54] Arria Perreault: We are in a oath ceremony. I ask for some respect
[11:54] Arria Perreault: thank you
[11:54] Patroklus Murakami: this kind of disruption is what ppl have been spending two or more years trying to get beyond!
[11:55] Arria Perreault: Sonja, you can make your declaration
[11:55] Sonja Strom: Does anyone else in this room want to be here in my place?
[11:55] Sonja Strom: I see no volunteers…
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Lop Eared, Gem Eyed, Retired bunnies, Radiants, Silkies, and everything else too!
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[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed …
[11:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Sonja I don’t stand against your candidacy
[11:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or say that you couldn’t or shouldn’t be the chancellor
[11:56] Gelf Yalin: then please lets finish the oath……
[11:56] Arria Perreault: now we can finish the aoth
[11:57] Arria Perreault: Sonja 🙂
[11:57] Sonja Strom: Alright, I will
[11:57] Sonja Strom: I, Sonja Strom , having been elected as Chancellor of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully discharge my duties as such to the best of my ability, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and that I will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators.
[11:58] Sonja Strom: Thank you.
[11:58] Arria Perreault: thank you, SOnja 🙂
[11:58] Gelf Yalin: yea!!!!!
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi: Thank you, Sonja!
[11:58] Imotali Antiesse: APPLAUSSSEEEE
[11:58] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi: Applauds!!!
[11:58] Junius Inaka: claps!!
[11:58] Arria Perreault: and congratulations
[11:58] Timo Gufler applauds!!!
[11:58] Pip Torok: APPLAUSE …. :-)))
[11:58] Arria Perreault: 🙂
[11:58] Sonja Strom: 🙂
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds and congratulates again
[11:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I thank Sonja, but I do not thank the RA
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew, that was tough…
[11:58] Imotali Antiesse: Congrats Sonja
[11:58] Patroklus Murakami: and i’m afraid i must go due to RL
[11:58] Ulysse Alexandre applauds
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Pat
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn moves a motion to finish for today..
[11:59] Arria Perreault: ty Gwyn
[11:59] Rose Springvale: again, the citizens are lost
[11:59] Arria Perreault: any second?
[11:59] Rose Springvale: becasues this is the RA of the few.
[11:59] Timo Gufler: seconds
[11:59] Mikelo Serevi: second
[11:59] Pip Torok: second
[12:00] Arria Perreault: vote please
[12:00] Keila Forager: and forget the rest of the agenda??
[12:00] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[12:00] Timo Gufler: aye
[12:00] Pip Torok: aye
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Keila, it gets tabled for the next meeting automatically)
[12:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don’t involve me in this
[12:00] Keila Forager: yippee.
[12:01] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[12:01] Lilith Ivory: aye
[12:01] Carolyn Saarinen: abstain
[12:02] Arria Perreault: aye
[12:03] Soro Dagostino: RL calls.
[12:03] Arria Perreault: I think with 6 aye, we are adjourned
[12:03] Fern Leissa: Bye Soro 🙂
[12:03] Rose Springvale: congratulations sonja
[12:03] Jamie Palisades: See you all at the .Inaugural Ball 🙂

Permalink.

Agenda

I. ADMIN
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
d. Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
d. 7-day votes

II. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)
a. Report of the Portal/Forum Workgroup
b. Report of the Town Hall Meeting

III. NEW ITEMS
a. Compatibility between the position of caretaker and RA membership (Request from the Chancellor’s Office)
b. Definition of citizen
c. Order of the RA Agenda

IV. Concerns of RA Members

V. Concerns of Citizens

VI. Adjournment
Transcript

[9:04] Arria Perreault: Thank you for coming at the meeting. We can start
[9:04] Arria Perreault: I have published an agenda in the forum and this agenda is available in the amphora
[9:04] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2733
[9:06] Arria Perreault: We begin with the adminitrative part. First point: Get agreements to record session.
[9:06] Arria Perreault: Please clic on the recorder to consent to be recorded
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Thank you
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Second point: Review this agenda
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: these seats upset me
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Any remark or change?
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they cut thru my ankles
[9:08] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh I get that. It sizist!
[9:08] Arria Perreault: no changes?
[9:08] Arria Perreault: so I consider this agenda is ok.
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: It looks good to me
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Next point: Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
[9:09] Soro Dagostino: Reserve
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ha 🙂
[9:09] Lilith Ivory: Hi Fern 🙂
[9:09] Carolyn Saarinen: Hello Stui 😉
[9:09] Jeroma Wycliffe: Fern 🙂
[9:09] Arria Perreault: who want to speak? I ask especially the non-RA members
[9:09] Pip Torok: hi everyone
[9:09] Timo Gufler: hi Pip and Fern!
[9:10] Arria Perreault: I notice that Soro has asked to speak. For wichi point, SOro?
[9:10] Carolyn Saarinen: you can sit on my knee if you like Stui
[9:10] Solomon Mosely: nice wig
[9:10] Soro Dagostino: All, it depends.
[9:10] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who is in a wig ?
[9:10] Solomon Mosely rolls his eyes…
[9:10] Carolyn Saarinen: Well my hair’s my own
[9:11] Arria Perreault: Last point of the administrative part: Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
[9:12] Arria Perreault: I would like to remind that these rules concern also the non-RA members. This is the text:
[9:12] Arria Perreault: All meetings of the RA will be public, and all citizens of CDS are welcome to attend and participate. Non-citizens are welcome too, but they should listen only, and not speak. If non-member residents disrupt proceedings, they should be subject to actions which may end in being Teleported Home and Banned from CDS.
[9:12] Arria Perreault: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[9:12] Solomon Mosely: wow, i never saw that quoted in here before
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: So shaddap you citizens! :{
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s part of the put up and shut up policy
[9:13] Solomon Mosely: is that a warning shot?
[9:13] Imotali Antiesse: 🙂
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: It applies only to non-citizens.
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: “all citizens of CDS are welcome to attend and participate”
[9:13] Pip Torok: phone brb
[9:14] Arria Perreault: We alonly want to have our meetings in good conditions
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s rather a contradiction isn’t it Pat ?
[9:14] Arria Perreault: every two weeks there are town halls
[9:14] Soro Dagostino: You can move to overule the chair if it becomes an issu.
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: no, not really
[9:14] Solomon Mosely: well, good thing we’re discussing the terms of citizenship today
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: participation in silence
[9:15] Arria Perreault: I have a last point: Gwyn has asked for a 7-days vote for all points to vote
[9:15] Carolyn Saarinen: mmph mmmph
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like inaction but asking things to be done
[9:15] Solomon Mosely: what does that mean?
[9:15] Solomon Mosely: the 7 day vote…
[9:15] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t appreciate people implying the RA is somehow repressive of free speech, We are most certainly not
[9:16] Solomon Mosely: hear hear mike
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: I think it is moving in that direction
[9:16] Solomon Mosely: thanks
[9:16] Arria Perreault: Gwyn has 7 days to cast her vote
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: solo, it means we give ppl 7 days to vote on issues so that all RA members can vote
[9:16] Carolyn Saarinen: No, Gwyn doesn’t want 7 day votes for me. So no 7 day votes for Gwyn. Move to vote on that!
[9:16] Arria Perreault: we can move to the items from the prior meeting
[9:16] Carolyn Saarinen: No, move to vote!
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: second
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: you are out of order caro
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: IHow so P at?
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: you can’t vote to deny someone a 7-day vote. read the rules of procedure
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: Gwyn is on record as wishing to deny me 7 day vores
[9:17] Solomon Mosely: were you actually denied 7 days?
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: that’s not really relevant caro
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: That is not the point
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: CAro it’s all in the interests of fairness isn’t it ?
[9:18] Mikelo Serevi: We were moving on with last week’s business, if caro and stui don’t mind
[9:18] Carolyn Saarinen: No votes for anti-democrats
[9:18] Arria Perreault: a. Report of the Portal/Forum Workgroup (Keila Forager)
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arria is LRA
[9:19] Arria Perreault: I look in the public. Keila is not present to present her report
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I know that thw working group has met last week
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I was not able to attend, but the transcript is in the forum
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: pat, could you post a link to the procedures for 7-day votes, please?
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: i’m just curious now
[9:21] Arria Perreault: I propose we postpone this report for a next meeting if the working is still willing to present it.
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: sure. let me find it first!
[9:21] Solomon Mosely: thanks pat
[9:21] Mikelo Serevi: That sounds reasonable, keila may not have realized she was on the agenda
[9:22] Arria Perreault: possible
[9:22] Arria Perreault: any second for this proposal?
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: second
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: I´m IMing with her at the moment
[9:22] Arria Perreault: is she willing to come?
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: I gave her TP
[9:23] Mikelo Serevi: Even better
[9:23] Carolyn Saarinen: If Pat finds a procedure guareteeing 7 day votes for all RA members, I will move to censure Gwyn for proposing to deny me a 7 day vote.
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: Hi Keila 🙂
[9:23] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:23] Keila Forager: Hi still rezzing
[9:23] Arria Perreault: Keila, do you want to present your report now?
[9:23] Keila Forager: Sure..
[9:24] Arria Perreault: I propose we hear Keila 😉
[9:24] Keila Forager: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2729
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: second 🙂
[9:24] Keila Forager: that is the link from the 3rd meeting..
[9:24] Arria Perreault: anyone ne against?
[9:24] Arria Perreault: 😉
[9:25] Keila Forager: The 2nd meeting no one came to or responded to me..
[9:25] Arria Perreault: Keila, you have thee floor
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn arrives late and apologises… sorry all
[9:25] Keila Forager: although I missed it too due to rl issues..
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: hi gwyn
[9:26] Keila Forager: We had a great mock up of what the portal could be from a citizen, but she has since left CDS..a few days before the meeting
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙁
[9:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who left Keila ?
[9:26] Keila Forager: I’m working on something now, which should do what we want..
[9:27] Keila Forager: Rather not say Stui…
[9:27] Keila Forager: and someone has been adding to the present portal but I have no knowledge of who..
[9:27] Keila Forager: they haven’t contacted me ..
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: incidentally, I may need access to it, as archivist
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t currently have access
[9:28] Keila Forager: Well I don’t have access to the current one either
[9:28] Arria Perreault: I am surprised, Mikelo
[9:28] Keila Forager: and no idea who is working on it
[9:28] Keila Forager: no offense, but it’s looking more and more clutttered
[9:28] Arria Perreault: I got a confirmation you had an acces from the webmaster
[9:29] Mikelo Serevi: I’ll double check, no one contacted me
[9:29] Keila Forager: I will post a new meeting date and at that time will invite others to see what we are working on
[9:30] Keila Forager: I’m done
[9:30] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Keila
[9:30] Keila Forager: Questions?
[9:31] Arria Perreault: any questions from RA members to Keila?
[9:31] Mikelo Serevi: Sure, what sort of changes were you proposing to the existing site,?
[9:31] Arria Perreault: if it not the case, we wait for your invitation, Keila
[9:32] Arria Perreault: sorry, Mikela
[9:32] Keila Forager: I’m post the meeting time on the forum..
[9:32] Arria Perreault: Mikelo*
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: It’s ok, I had my eyes elsewhere for a sec
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: I mean in general, keila, are you thinking of changing the portal engine, or just the look?
[9:33] Arria Perreault: Keila?
[9:34] Keila Forager: keeping all the present info and addding spots for the community to contribute, so probably the whole thing, so it’s easy to transfer administrative duties and easy for all to use
[9:34] Arria Perreault: an other question?
[9:34] Keila Forager: come to the next meeting if you are interested in helping…that is an open invitation for all
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “the whole thing”, menaing abandoning Typo3 as engine, selecting a new one, and moving all content over? (sorry, I’m just rephrasing Mikelo’s question to see if we understand that right)
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But granted… perhaps this would be better for the meeting…
[9:35] Keila Forager: yes
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, keila :))
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
[9:35] Arria Perreault: thank you again, Keila
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that at least we get some design specs this time hehe
[9:35] Arria Perreault: Next point
[9:35] Keila Forager: bye
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: Thank keila
[9:36] Lilith Ivory: bye Keila 🙂
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thankyou Keila
[9:36] Pip Torok: bye Keila
[9:36] Arria Perreault: b. Report of the Town Hall Meeting
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and have a good evening 🙂
[9:36] Arria Perreault: bye Keila 🙂
[9:36] Arria Perreault: Pat, can you say some words about Town Halls? We had already two
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: sure
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *giggles*
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll look to solomon to fill in on some of the details
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: we had a good discussion at last week’s meeting about commerce in the CDS
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *thinks of rhyming slang*
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: we talked about having a kiosk/business board in each sim to advertise businesses
[9:37] Mikelo Serevi: Kindly don’t disrupt, stui
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: and solomon has called meetings to revive the CDS Traders’ Association to get business input into these ideas
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all from me on the last meeting 🙂
[9:38] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo – I am constantly reminded of the need for humour at these proceedings 🙂
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[9:39] Arria Perreault: I think the Town Halls a re a good experienc
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if the LRA permits I shall be amusing
[9:39] Arria Perreault: we can move to new items
[9:39] Arias Ahren: Yes: A good laugh every now and then would be wonderful.
[9:39] Solomon Mosely: and not a bailiff…
[9:40] Arria Perreault: a. Compatibility between the position of caretaker and RA membership
[9:40] Arria Perreault: I give the word to our Chancellor, as it is a request from her
[9:40] Arria Perreault: Sonja, you have the floor
[9:41] Sonja Strom: Honourable Members of the RA…
[9:41] Sonja Strom: for the past couple of years Lilith Ivory and I have been the Caretakers in the CDS.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: This is a position reporting to the Executive Branch,
[9:42] Sonja Strom: that is the Chancellor.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: As I am now Chancellor I will still be doing the duties of this role of Caretaker,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: but will not actually have that position,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: as a civil servant.
[9:43] Sonja Strom: Now Lilith has become a member of the Representative Assembly.
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Can an elected official also hold a appointed post?
[9:44] Sonja Strom: Both she and I would like for her to continue in her role of Caretaker,
[9:44] Sonja Strom: but we are bringing this as a request to the RA, that she have allowance from the RA to be in both roles –
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: what does the role of Caretaker involve?
[9:44] Sonja Strom: RA Member and Caretaker.
[9:44] Sonja Strom: I see no reason not to allow someone to be both a caretaker and a RA member
[9:45] Sonja Strom: as the Caretaker makes no decisions about anything.
[9:45] Sonja Strom: The Caretaker simply removes litter on public land,
[9:45] Sonja Strom: notifies private land owners if it seems like litter might be on their land,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: and helps the Chancellor to keep the community good looking and working well.
[9:46] Sonja Strom: Lilith has been a wonderful Caretaker up to now,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: and it is my hope and request that the RA will support her continuing to be.
[9:47] Sonja Strom: Thank you.
[9:47] Mikelo Serevi: It doesn’t sound like a conflict of interest
[9:47] Pip Torok: Like Sonja, I see no conflict
[9:47] Mikelo Serevi: I move to allow the dual roles for Sonja and Lilith
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: i can’t really see a problem with this
[9:47] Carolyn Saarinen: It ain’t broke, why fix it?
[9:47] Pip Torok: second
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. This is a tricky one. In fact, I’d say it’s something for the SC to untangle. You see, the issue is that RA members ought not to be civil servants 😉
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’ll hush and abstain on the legalities… hehe
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: umm
[9:48] Arria Perreault: we have to vote now
[9:48] Pip Torok: please yes
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: ell, legalities ae what this RA is for, right?
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: do ewe arria?
[9:48] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: gwen,
[9:48] Arria Perreault: the SC can veto our decision
[9:48] Pip Torok: aye
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: we’re in a vote. i vote aye
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Arria.
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: what conflict is there for those of us that dont know it?
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains
[9:49] Arias Ahren: Aye
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: ahh… of course, the sc
[9:49] Lilith Ivory: abstains
[9:49] Gelf Yalin: well, I think we have to be realistic that we dont have a community of thousands…so people are going to sometimes have to do duel roles if things are to work…even in in RL it probably wouldnt be allowed
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: the sc
[9:49] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: is wnyone here on the sc?
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: anyone*
[9:50] Carolyn Saarinen: as I said, ‘ain’t broke’ vote aye.
[9:50] Arria Perreault: we are still voting
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: anyone?
[9:50] Sylvia Tinkel: if it’s illegal the vote wouldn’t count though
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: solomon, perhaps you could follow up with gwyn after the meeting?
[9:50] Sylvia Tinkel: whether it’s aye or not
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: and i am still asking about who here is on the sc
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: sure
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: we’ll deal with legal formalities after the legal formalities
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don’t think there is an SC present
[9:51] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[9:51] Sylvia Tinkel: Gwyneth as former Dean and longest standing member would have the best insight into the possible illegality
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: none that matter for 5 more months
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: Who is left to vote?
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Stui, Timo, Imotali and I
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, thanks, Sylvia, but my opinion as “former Dean” doesn’t matter much lol
[9:52] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:52] Mikelo Serevi: I’m sure we all value your opinion, gwyn, and don’t intend to step on any toes
[9:53] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[9:53] Arria Perreault: we have 6 aye, 2 abstains until now (so motion carries)
[9:53] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:54] Imotali Antiesse: i vote aye, for now
[9:55] Mikelo Serevi: If it turns out this vote was inappropriate somehow, I’m sure we can roll it back, or be overridden by the SC
[9:55] Arria Perreault: thank you, I have casted all votes
[9:55] Arria Perreault: 9 aye and 2 abstains
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: good point, the sc
[9:56] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: when was thier last bi-weeklymeeting?
[9:56] Lilith Ivory: if it turns out to be illegal I´m willing to step back from tht office any time
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: perhaps the reformation of the sc would be in order
[9:56] Arria Perreault: The RA doesn’t see any problem if one RA member is caretaker. The SC can take an other decision of course
[9:57] Solomon Mosely: what sc?
[9:57] Mikelo Serevi: It doesn’t strike me that cleaning up will lead to corruption, but one never knows
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Solomon!!!!
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
[9:57] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[9:57] Pip Torok tries to stop guffaw
[9:57] Arria Perreault: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[9:58] Sonja Strom: hahaa
[9:58] Solomon Mosely: sorry, i just dont see any posts from them since the election announcements
[9:58] Arria Perreault: The portal has a lot of information, including a description of the Scientific Council
[9:58] Sylvia Tinkel: they don’t have to post to exist
[9:58] Solomon Mosely: and if they are the gaurdians of cds law, maybe we need tehm to be active
[9:58] Sylvia Tinkel: or meet
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: solomon, perhaps you could follow up with an SC member after this meeting?
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: but they have to post their meetings
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: well, i bring it up now, beacusae
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: who do they answer to?
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn polishes the old Impeachment Wand, “Mmmh… still working, goodie”
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: no one
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sylvia! 🙂
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:59] Arria Perreault: members of SC: Aliasi Stonebender as Dean, Delia Lake, Claude Desmoulins, Danton Sideways and Dnate Mars
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: 🙂
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Noooo they answer to the RA 🙂
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: it’s a good thing
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: sorry
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: will stop interrupting if Solomon does
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: .. in the sense that if they don’t behave, we can impeach them 🙂
[10:00] Arria Perreault: we can move to the next point
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please, Arria 🙂
[10:00] Arria Perreault: b. Definition of citizen
[10:00] Arria Perreault: Mikelo has proposed this point to the ageda. I give the floor to him
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: Thank you
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: My main purpose in proposing the point was to open discussion here
[10:01] Mikelo Serevi: See how others feel we should proceed
[10:01] Mikelo Serevi: I think it’s a very important task and we should get started if we want to continue merging with AA
[10:01] Solomon Mosely: i thought we already did
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: Well, we have been dealing with other things
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: But this has been a sticking point in the merger
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: could you outline what the major issues are mikelo? why is citizenship a sticking point?
[10:02] Pip Torok: (the trial period of the merger ends n ext June, Solomon)
[10:02] Solomon Mosely: right
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: What I mean is, the definition of a citizen is supposed to come from owning land
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then it’s stick or twist
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: But many own land as part of a group, for example
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: It’s not clear that we should deny them this right
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: But on the other hand, should someone who joins a group of 300 suddenly be eligible to vote?
[10:04] Pip Torok raises hand
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I’d like to hear from others in the RA
[10:04] Arria Perreault: Pip have asked to speak
[10:04] Pip Torok: Madame LRA?
[10:05] Arria Perreault: Pip, you have the floor
[10:05] Arias Ahren: Okay
[10:05] Arias Ahren: I am having a bit of trouble with my internet connection.
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* after Pip
[10:06] Arria Perreault: ok, Gwyn
[10:06] Pip Torok: right … 2 points …. i agree with mikelo as to its crucial importance … and note the suggestion (from Sudane) that it be based on _who _ pays the tier for the land …. and finally respectfully suggest that a workingparty of mikelo Arria Sudane and myself might provide a quick solution
[10:06] Pip Torok: done
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Hmmm, no one from SEED?
[10:07] Arria Perreault: we have a proposal, but I suggest we continue the discussion before to find a second or vote
[10:07] Arria Perreault: Gwyn has the floor
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and agrees with Mikelo. Also, the notion about “owning land” has been questioned last term (and I changed my opinion after some very good argumentation 🙂 ). Is “owning land” buying a parcel, or paying land fees? The latter seems to be the more logical choice, since the land price fluctuates (as owners set the price, not the Government, after the first sale), while land fees don’t)
[10:08] Pip Torok: wd be glad to have a SEED member in it (speaking personally)
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack, I had pre-typed that but I see I’m pretty much making the same point.
[10:08] Carolyn Saarinen: “But on the other hand, should someone who joins a group of 300 suddenly be eligible to vote?” People who join much smaller groups are entitled to stand for office!
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I think it’s worth changing the definition of citizenship; and actually I had a proposal for a bill posted on the forums.
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean outside the CDS; Caro?
[10:09] Carolyn Saarinen: No Gwyn I don’t
[10:09] Pip Torok: agree Caro … thats why whoever pays tier .. wd obviate that problem
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wonder if CDS can really have the luxury of choosing to further limit citizenship when it already struggles to fill posts
[10:10] Carolyn Saarinen: CDS might struggle Stui, AA does not. The same applies to land.
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry… “/nod and agrees with Mikelo. Also, the notion about “owning land” has been questioned last term (and I changed my opinion after some very good argumentation 🙂 ). Is “owning land” buying a parcel, or paying land fees? The latter seems to be the more logical choice, since the land price
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to open
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I don’t understood what you meant, Caro 🙂
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And my grammar sucks today… :O
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: Sl does that somehow
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, the question about group ownership (which, btw, is allowed) is not because we want “more citizens at any price”, but because of enforcement of the laws.
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: i’m not sure i understand the proposal that it’s ‘whoever pays tier’. when does someone become a citizen then?
[10:12] Pip Torok: One point Id like to make in fron of the RA: … that the citizen count be easy to obtain by all parties
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was felt that citizenship ought to be based on something that people value. iRL it’s physical freedom. We can’t limit that in SL, so the second best choice we found was… the purse 🙂
[10:12] Pip Torok: *front
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with that pip
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I still think that we don’t have enough citizens to start looking to exclude
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn most heartily agrees with that too, Pip!
[10:12] Carolyn Saarinen: I meant Gwyn that other factions accepted people as potential candidates when they were not land-owners in the the sense of voting qualifications,. I mean that such persons are claiming to hold office in AA when they don’t live there!
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not like we are overrun
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Caro! Sorry…I *see* 🙁
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: you could draw it more widely stui, you could let anyone who joins the CDS and AA groups be a citizen. but would you set any barrier on voting?
[10:13] Pip Torok: Stui … suppose 200 Coptic Christians had suddenly become citizens?
[10:13] Carolyn Saarinen: No AA IS over run, in-so-far as AA land is always full, CDS land remains empty.
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that if you looked at the % of active citizens per group
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you’d find that the number is not probably so high
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, any change of the citizenship status will have to change the ground, the base of law enforcement. If you find out a valid way to enforce the code of laws without going to people’s purses, please tell us — just because in the past we never figured out a way, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t an alternative!
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am myself member of groups for no other reason than diplomacy with the group founder
[10:15] Gelf Yalin: caro: what do you think is a good way to increase the numbers of people being active in the CDS, what is your proposal as to citizenship?
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I admit that some people pay a higher % of tier for their privileges
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then I also own to knowing that some people couldn’t afford tier
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and yet would want to be active citizens
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what of those people ?
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: There is only one level of privilege though, citizen
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: how do we qualify the enthusiastic ? are they in some way less than the rich ?
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we discussed that before, Stui 🙂 Sorry, I don’t buy the argument that someone owns a compuyer and a broadband connection, both able to run SL to be “active citizens”, and cannot afford half a dollar monthly 🙂
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: disposible income is an issue
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: i agree gwyn, no one by that definition is in any way ‘poor’
[10:17] Timo Gufler: good point, Gwyn
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6 dollars per year! That’s what costs to be a citizen in the SL! If you don’t even have that…
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that is the reason for the privations of the recession
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also
[10:17] Pip Torok agrees with pat and gwyn
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Come *on*, Stui 🙂
[10:17] Carolyn Saarinen: I think that the best way to resolve the AA citizenship issue is to use the WASp Option Gelf!
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seriously 🙂
[10:17] Arria Perreault: I think we have cheap parcels and we can have others
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: it’s one cup of cappucino at starbuck’s a week
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we do have people from really rather poor nations who have access to a PC
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but do not get paid in dollars
[10:18] Gelf Yalin: sorry for my ignorance, what is the WASp option?
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll be more than happy to pay them 6 US dollars per annum to have them be citizens 😛
[10:18] Carolyn Saarinen: The WASP option is that AA de-merges from CDS after one year
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: If any such people want to join the CDS, I’d like to hear form them
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we as landed citizens are to be the only voting party
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: or that the CDS votes to end the merger 🙂
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then that is restrictive
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if there is a nominal fee
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s still rather unfair
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as it cannot be qualified as being within the reach of all people
[10:19] Pip Torok: I propose that citizenship be based on the payment of tier and/or Landfees
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: I think it’s fair enough
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and laws are laws that are fair to all people
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not just the fortunate
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: the point is that people who own land who pay tier have a stake in the community. open access just leads to abuse
[10:20] Gelf Yalin: okay, I just want to follow what is being said….are you stating Stui that you want citizenship to be open to anyone?
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: well pip, did you want to start the working group?
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that’s a different question. Basing citizenship on the ability to enforce the code of laws based on payments is just ONE option. As said (and I repeat myself), just because in the past 6 years we didn’t find a better solution, it doesn’t mean there is none. So… in the case of NOT having any kind of fees… what would be the base of enforcement?
[10:20] Arias Ahren: I have a small studio in Aa and a small piece of land next to Caro and Pip. I assume that mekes me eligible for citizenship. Yes?
[10:20] Arria Perreault: Ok. Mikelo wated to open the discussion and I think his goal is reached
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (true, Arria 🙂 )
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I know I made a bit of a mess
[10:20] Pip Torok: yes i do want to start the workgroup if Mikelo agrees
[10:20] Solomon Mosely: whas there been a group recently that is trying to have a lrge number of people voting on something?
[10:20] Solomon Mosely: what has sparked this debate?
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: But I wanted to test the waters
[10:20] Arria Perreault: I thik we have to go further
[10:20] Gelf Yalin: can’t someone who doesn’t have enough money work as a civil servent in the CDS and earn their fees?
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Pip has made a proposal
[10:21] Timo Gufler: if citizenship is free, then it would be very cheap to have an army of alts here…
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Gelf!
[10:21] Arria Perreault: a working group
[10:21] Pip Torok: shall i repeat it?
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what of the time constraints ?
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: quite gelf 🙂
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Pip, do you want to define again your proposal?
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not all people have time regularly ?
[10:21] Pip Torok: I propose that citizenship be based on the payment of tier and/or Landfees
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: hold on pip
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i thought the proposal was to have a working group?
[10:21] Solomon Mosely: thank you pat
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: I thought we were going to form a working group to consider it further
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles @ Pat
[10:22] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh please. The CDS political hacks don’t want al-Andalus except as a crippled rump on their terms. For AA citizens the best course is to cut CDS loose and let you sink!
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: It’s a huge question
[10:22] Arria Perreault: you did propose a working group first
[10:22] Pip Torok: i repropose
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think i’m ready to change our citizenship rules right now
[10:22] Arria Perreault: yes, do it Pip
[10:22] Pip Torok: I propse that the RA formn a workinggroup on Defining Citizenship
[10:23] Arria Perreault: any second?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have a query of this
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: second
[10:23] Soro Dagostino: Barring all other citizens?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the names mentioned before
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are they the working group ?
[10:23] Pip Torok: yes
[10:23] Arria Perreault: thank you Mikelo
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or is this a proposal to form a working group ?
[10:23] Pip Torok: yes
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: of undefined names ?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or of your previous statement Pip?
[10:23] Pip Torok: the names I mentioned before
[10:23] Solomon Mosely: caro, the RA may represent the politically ambitious among us, but not necessarily the people’s wishes
[10:23] Gelf Yalin: so is Caro the only one who doesn’t want things to work between AA and the CDS? Are there others here whose purpose is not to try to make things better for all?
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami assumes the working group will hold open meetings which anyone can attend
[10:24] Pip Torok: yes … assumption is right
[10:24] Mikelo Serevi: The whole point is to serve the people
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would like to know the status of the people mentioned
[10:24] Pip Torok: they are RA members
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: would they be equal to the audience or above?
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with the proposal, but it ought to have a “head” — that’s the person responsible to summarise its results to the RA 🙂
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are they a joint chair ?
[10:25] Pip Torok: I propose Mikelo be the head
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or is there one appointed chair ?
[10:25] Arria Perreault: except Sudane 😉
[10:25] Mikelo Serevi: In the end, the RA will vote on the work group’s proposal, I should think
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I ask this
[10:25] Arria Perreault: Pip, can you rename the members?
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: purely in the interests of my faction
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as we were rather seen as irrelevant
[10:25] Pip Torok: yes Arria Mikelo an Pip Torok
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and while we are invited to join
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we have not been asked to be part of this proposal
[10:26] Pip Torok: but you are as part of an open meeting Stu
[10:26] Carolyn Saarinen: Gelf Yalin = “CDS political hacks don’t want al-Andalus except as a crippled rump on their terms.” You don’t know my city. You don’t love my city. You don’t matter to me.
[10:27] Solomon Mosely: yes, why no cal for interested volunteers for the work group?
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why are we proposing a group
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with one as chair
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: the meetings will be open to all for crying out loud
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Not with a voice
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with specific names put forward ?
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: turn up, participate, get on with it!
[10:27] Mikelo Serevi: It’s too much work for an RA meeting, I think, that’s why stui
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Just as a yammering crowd
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what is the special qualification of these nominees Pip ?
[10:28] Gelf Yalin: I am not arguing with you Caro, I am just expressing concern
[10:28] Arria Perreault: The proposal is a working group with Arria Mikelo and Pip whose goal is to bring to the RA a proposal about CDS citizenship
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why have any more than a chair ?
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you only need a chair to sit the meeting
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it is so disadvantageous to have a position over and above the common audience
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: unless it is for the prestige of course
[10:29] Pip Torok: arria is concer ned … mikelo put the mortion .. and i in the dpu regard it as high-priority
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and then I shall say we should produce badges
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Pip
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: I would like CDS and AA to try to at least give this the best chance possible to work together and make the best thing possible….if it doesn’t work out fine but shouldn’t we at least give it our best shot?
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are Seed not concerned ?
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: stui, if you want in, jut ask to be a part of the work group
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: Shall we invite a seed member to join the working group, pip?
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: nice of you mike
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: Caro: if you think there is a way for CDS to improve citizenship please let us know
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: I really truly do want to know
[10:30] Pip Torok: yes … will someone in SEED* come forward?
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: I personally am concerned that stui will have us splitting hairs
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depending on availability
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I will be there
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: Lilith, are you interested?
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but not as less than I am now
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Mikelo
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am an RA member just as you are
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn quotes the RA Meeting Procedures (http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=281): on point 5: “Committees will be formed of volunteers, and the LRA will make efforts to ensure that committees contain a balanced range of faction members and positions.” So, yes, we ought to have a SEED* member in it.
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have a right to involvement
[10:30] Lilith Ivory: I´d second Stui as a member of that work group as he knows more about AA
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with or without your mandate
[10:31] Imotali Antiesse: Since there concern with merger, yes an AA member should chair too.
[10:31] Arria Perreault: now we have a representant from each faction and a head
[10:31] Lilith Ivory: at least one citizen of Al Andalus should be part of that work group
[10:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I respectfully ask that you do not further undermine my integrity or suitability for office
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
[10:32] Arria Perreault: can we vote about the workgroup now?
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: respectfully, stui, often it feels like you are mocking these proceedings
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t appreciate it
[10:32] Timo Gufler: yes, please
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if you say so Mikelo
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it can be so easily mocked
[10:32] Pip Torok: My proposal: that Mikelo, Arria, Stui and myself form a workingpartgy on Citizen definition which is open to CDS residents
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s fragile indeed
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: second
[10:32] Arria Perreault: members: Mikelo (head), Stui, Pip, Arria
[10:32] Arria Perreault: we vote now
[10:32] Pip Torok: aye
[10:32] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:32] Arria Perreault: RA members who agree, pay say aye
[10:32] Timo Gufler: aye
[10:33] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:33] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: I have a question
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: pls wait til after the vote tor 🙂
[10:33] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:33] muhammedyussif Wikinger: afk
[10:34] Arria Perreault: Caro, Stui?
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: could I as a cat and curious
[10:34] Tor Karlsvalt: I think the group should report on how this change will affect voiting registration. Would that be possible?
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, that’s the whole point
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry I was gonna ask LRA if it were possible to hear Tor’s question
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: before voting
[10:35] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye
[10:35] Pip Torok: well … it wd provide the BASIS for giving citizens a ready-reference of who is a citizen and how many there are
[10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: No, it should report on where there have been problems and how various sims will loose voting residents.
[10:36] Arria Perreault: Caro?
[10:36] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like a percentage board of CDS sims Tor ?
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to show the losses
[10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that seems fair
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: why would sims lose voting residents tor?
[10:37] Arria Perreault: we have 10 aye, motion carries
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s transparent
[10:37] Mikelo Serevi: I’m not sure we have existing numbers
[10:37] Arria Perreault: Mikelo, we wait for your invitation
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: Well there seems to be a problem with members of groups voiting
[10:37] Mikelo Serevi: since we have no real definition
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I suppose I can see why it would be an issue
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: for this to be a valid issue there must have been some abuses
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the wasp clause
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if AA lost most of it’s votes
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or CDS
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: thats what i was wondering tor
[10:37] Arria Perreault: We are finished with this point
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: or there is a practice in some sims to allow non landed people to be citizens.
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then how could the wasp clause be effectively voted through fairly ?
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: Thanks Arria
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami: good grief. is that what ppl think this is for? to deny AA citizens votes?
[10:38] Pip Torok: not that i know of, Tor
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it would rather have to be done under the old rules to be fair
[10:38] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat
[10:38] Arria Perreault: you can continue this discussion after the meeting or in a next meeting
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: rather as I said
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the issue would be on both sides
[10:38] Tor Karlsvalt: I think for you all to make a valid judgement you should know how this will affect the number of those voiting.
[10:38] Arria Perreault: in a next Town Hall (sorry)
[10:38] Tor Karlsvalt: sure
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: CDS could lose voting citizens
[10:38] Arria Perreault: next point
[10:38] Solomon Mosely: thats a real good point tor
[10:39] Arria Perreault: c. Order of the RA Agenda
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we don’t have non-voting citizens; all citizens are voting citizens, or they aren’t citizens at all 😉 )
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP is this me ?
[10:39] Arria Perreault: Stui, you have asked to add a point about the RA Agenda Order during the last meeting
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yes that’s true
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: c’est vrai
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[10:39] Arria Perreault: we have voted to postponed this point today
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: c’est vraiment vrai !
[10:40] Arria Perreault: je sais 🙂
[10:40] Solomon Mosely: then deciding who’s a citizen decides who votes
[10:40] Arria Perreault: you have the floor
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Solomon)
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (that was a slogan on a ad in paris)
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I just wondered if we could move citizens concerns to the start of the meeting before approving the agenda
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they voted us here
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and they get heard last
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and well how can we approve an agenda that hasn’t been approved by all at the meeting
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: even if we are seen to represent
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it sseems to me that the citizens concerns relate directly to the course of the meeting
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as their experiences may colour our votes
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and affect the priorities of the meeting
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: c’est fini
[10:42] Solomon Mosely: wow stu
[10:42] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:43] Arria Perreault: I would like to reminder again the rules of the RA
[10:43] Solomon Mosely: that sounds pretty good
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I like this idea 🙂
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: My only concern is a practical one of time
[10:43] Arria Perreault: they give a a lot of possibilities to citizen to make proposals
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We set a time limit!
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[10:43] Arria Perreault: 3. Citizen input
Any citizen may propose legislation to the RA by: 1. emailing the proposal to the LRA; 2. giving the LRA a proposal inworld on notecard; or 3. posting specifically proposed text in the “legislative discussion” forum in a post that specifically requests that the LRA add the proposal to the agenda.
It is suggested that that member be chosen by the submitter as a supporter of the substance of the bill. Posting the content of the bill on the forum is also strongly suggested, so that public opinion can be gathered. It is highly suggested that the bill contain two parts:
(1) A summary of what is proposed, and
(2) a detailed statement of the proposed action and its implications.
The members AND the public need to know the issues on what will be a wide variety of matters, and those persons must not be assumed to have a complete understanding of the issues. I.E. The bill should be an educational document. Please!
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we can also move to table certain issues
[10:44] Arria Perreault: Pat, you have asked to speak
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if they are non priority that shouldn’t be an issue as such
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so long as people are heard
[10:44] Arria Perreault: yu have the floor
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the issues are out there
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: i disagree with this proposal. i don’t think it makes sense
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: we have a job of work to do here which is why our meetings have a certain formality and their structure
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: our role is to pass laws and conduct long-term planning
[10:45] Soro Dagostino: ROTFLMAO
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: most of our time should be spent doing those things
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: so, if there is legislation to be considered, that should come first
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and if the concerns related to that legislation ?
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: as arria has posted, *none* of that prevents citizens concerns being heard
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and we missed a detail on account of the order of the meeting
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are the smaller number
[10:46] Pip Torok agrees with Pat on this point
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: citizens are able to participate in the discussion on those itmes
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: pls don’t interrup stui 🙂
[10:46] Timo Gufler: and the citizen can talk with the representatives they trust
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: in addition, we have our town hall meetings which are much more informal and allow for even more citizen input
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: and which have already borne fruit with their own proposals
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: so i see this idea of changing the order of our agenda as unnecessary
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all for now 🙂
[10:47] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[10:47] Solomon Mosely: wait, how does reshuffling a timed, existing agenda item deract from the ability of the RA to function in a meeting?
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP can I respond ?
[10:48] Arria Perreault: other opinions?
[10:48] Mikelo Serevi: I agree with pat
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: first things first solomon 🙂
[10:48] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[10:48] Arria Perreault: non RA members are not supposed to talk now
[10:48] Solomon Mosely: right, and as you said
[10:48] Solomon Mosely: lol, oh, my bad
[10:49] Solomon Mosely: i thought you had said something about serving the people
[10:49] Solomon Mosely: lol, you didnt
[10:49] Solomon Mosely: anyway
[10:49] Arria Perreault: there are many possibilities for citizen to bring concern to the RA
[10:49] Solomon Mosely: if there is a timed agenda, it could serve to inform that days voting for RA to hear public opinion on that days agenda
[10:49] Solomon Mosely: before* they vote
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The agenda is posted in advance, Solomon… is that your concern?
[10:50] Solomon Mosely: well thas great
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “but…”?
[10:50] Solomon Mosely: then they can come to the meeting prepared
[10:50] Solomon Mosely: like RA can
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the whole point, yes…
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and be heard last
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or not at all like last week
[10:50] Solomon Mosely: great, then the people can speak to the agenda items, publicly, before the voting
[10:50] Lilith Ivory: … or not at all 🙁
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: if citizens concerns need legislation, they should be turned into bills so the RA can consider them
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as suits the RA
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But they can always do that, Solomon…
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if expediency is required
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the very beginning of the session, the LRA *specifically* asks the audience if they wish to register themselves to speak on any of the agenda items.
[10:51] Solomon Mosely: i’m sorry, i thought stui was speaking about moving the official public speaking time towards the top of the agenda
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I propose that we fit a fire exit in here so that the more eager to leave RA members can do so more rapidly than a TP
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I understood that the “free-for-all” period (e.g. “any other business” from the citizens) would be pushed at the top of the agenda…
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as per last meeting
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’m not against that idea, as long as it has a time limit 🙂
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that was my proposal GL
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: putting ‘any other business’ at the start of the meeting makes no sense 🙂
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes… I’m not against it 🙂
[10:52] Solomon Mosely: good point gwen
[10:53] Solomon Mosely: i see your point
[10:53] Lilith Ivory: I agree and if we need more time we can put it on next aganda
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t mind it having a time limit
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat, but it might be interesting to experiment…
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: speaking of time limits, did you make the proposal, stui?
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: people often comment upon my flexibility
[10:53] Arria Perreault: without a time limit, it is not possible
[10:53] Lilith Ivory: normally we don´t have much citizens concerns anyway
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it comes from being supernaturally thin
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[10:54] Pip Torok: is the RA an experimental Lab Gwyn?
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww Pip. You know that’s not what I meant…
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depends on what rats you can get in Pip
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft 🙂
[10:54] Pip Torok: 🙂
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I saw one by the bin at work
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I almost soiled myself
[10:54] Mikelo Serevi: I’d be more willing to consider this if I didn’t feel it was intended to stall the RA
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (that’ll be the first time that was mentioned at RA)
[10:55] Mikelo Serevi: I wonder why anyone would want to hamper the RA?
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that it’s integral to the accurate and just voting
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I really think that if a lot of citizens really believe that teh RA ought to change the procedure of the meeting to better serve the citizen’s wishes… how can I possibly be against that idea? 🙂 if we find out after a while that it doesn’t work out, we can always change it again.
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if you vote before facts are found
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you lose the merit of the result
[10:56] Mikelo Serevi: Ok, stui has had 15 minutes
[10:56] Pip Torok: very true imho, Gwyn!
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: citizens can contribute at any time. this is just a populist stunt. that’s why it should be opposed
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Pat 🙂
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry raises an eyebrow
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or pat it’s the fairest approach
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it stops us as being seen to be arrogant
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or dismissive of people’s views
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they voted us here
[10:56] Arria Perreault: I suggest that this poitnt “concerns of citizen” has a time limit of 15 minutes
[10:57] Gelf Yalin: motion to end discussion on this and actually vote on something
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the least we can do is listen to them
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Arria’s suggestion
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: lol, i had a call and just read up
[10:57] Pip Torok: second
[10:57] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: yes, this whole pixleated “nation” thing is an experiment!
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: we have just opened up extra time for citizens concerns, this is unnecessary
[10:57] Arria Perreault: we vote n this point
[10:57] Pip Torok: aye
[10:57] Timo Gufler: aye
[10:57] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, aye
[10:57] Arria Perreault: RA members please vote on the amendment
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:57] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP can you clarify what it is I am voting on
[10:58] Mikelo Serevi: yes, what is the proposal?
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: please ?
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Being voted upon: “I suggest that this poitnt “concerns of citizen” has a time limit of 15 minutes.”
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can’t work out if I’m voting to end discussion
[10:58] Arria Perreault: we are amendng your proposal by setting a time limit of 15 minutes
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: wait, did you all just turn a discussion raised to bring citizen concerns to the top of RA meetings into a vote that limited the time of citizen comments?
[10:58] Mikelo Serevi: but not the meeting order?
[10:58] Arria Perreault: later we can vote on your proposal
[10:59] Lilith Ivory: imao at the beginning ot the session
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hush, Solomon 🙂
[10:59] Lilith Ivory: right?
[10:59] Arria Perreault: not yet on the order of the agenda
[10:59] Mikelo Serevi: then aye
[10:59] Lilith Ivory: sigh
[10:59] Solomon Mosely: FAAHHHHH!!!!
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it’s just for the 15 mins
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ?
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or are we voting to amend the order too ?
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or is that a subsequent vote ?
[11:00] Mikelo Serevi: Unfortunately, we have problems with disruptions and stalling
[11:00] Arria Perreault: if the amendment is voted, yes
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (sorry it’s been a tough week)
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry I just wanted to be clear
[11:00] Arria Perreault: Imotali and Caro?
[11:00] Imotali Antiesse: 15 mins is reasonable, aye
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I spend so many days getting up at the crack of dawn
[11:00] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so many late nights
[11:00] Mikelo Serevi: If these things stop, we can loosen things up 😉
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:01] Patroklus Murakami: did we lose caro?
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh that was unanimous…
[11:01] Lilith Ivory: think so 🙁
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah…
[11:01] Solomon Mosely: ha, no wonder CDS and AA is losing residents over this horse shit
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: caro has been gone for a long time
[11:01] Sonja Strom: Solomon!
[11:01] Arria Perreault: so your proposal has been modified with a time limit of 15 min
[11:02] Solomon Mosely: they see the CDS old boys club and get sick
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok… so we can vote on the precise point on the agenda that this will be?
[11:02] Lilith Ivory: didn´t we have a time limit anyway?
[11:02] Solomon Mosely: Sonja!
[11:02] Gelf Yalin: this is my first time serving and there are many women here…so how is it “old boys?”
[11:02] Pip Torok: lol
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[11:03] Arria Perreault: concerns of citizen at the begining of the agenda
[11:03] Lilith Ivory: you never know in SL 😉
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: haaha
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, true, Lilith 😉 😉
[11:03] Solomon Mosely: ahhhaaa
[11:03] Solomon Mosely: thats funny lil
[11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wonder if I am grouped with teh old boys
[11:03] Mikelo Serevi: It’s odd anyone thinks we’re a good old boys club, I wonder where they get the idea?
[11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’d sooner be a young tart than an old boy
[11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *LOL*
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[11:03] Patroklus Murakami: could we allow the LRA to conduct the vote? and be quiet pls?
[11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not to say that women who are young are tarts
[11:03] Mikelo Serevi: lol stui
[11:03] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but it rather seems to form a better contrast than prim young lady
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway— yes, let’s proceed with the vote to change the order of the agenda
[11:04] Arria Perreault: so the proposal is now “concerns of citizen at the begining of the RA agenda with a time limit of 15 min”
[11:04] Pip Torok: second
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I propose or second it 🙂
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or vote
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depending on need
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:04] Arria Perreault: you have a second, Stui
[11:04] Arria Perreault: we vote
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m enthusiastic
[11:04] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:05] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:05] Pip Torok: aye
[11:05] Timo Gufler: aye
[11:05] Patroklus Murakami: nay
[11:05] Arria Perreault: Imotali, Caro?
[11:06] Arria Perreault: I vote nay
[11:06] Arria Perreault: motions carries
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: gelf?
[11:06] Gelf Yalin: aye
[11:06] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, the fun bit is that RA members are citizens too, so they can use thise 15 minutes too 😉
[11:07] Arria Perreault: 7 aye, 3 nay, one missing vote
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles* @ the loophole
[11:07] Solomon Mosely: wow, mike voted and i never saw arias lips move
[11:07] Solomon Mosely: they’re getting better
[11:08] Arria Perreault: I will adapt the next meeting agenda and inform citizen of this
[11:08] Arria Perreault: there was no concerns
[11:08] Arria Perreault: can we move to adjourn?
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure, I’ll second that 😀
[11:08] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:08] Timo Gufler: aye
[11:08] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:08] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:09] Gelf Yalin: aye
[11:09] Arria Perreault: We are adjourned. thank you for this meeting

Permalink.

Agenda

I. Concerns of Citizens

II. ADMIN
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.

III. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)
–

IV. NEW ITEMS

a. 7 day vote
b. Sacromonte project
c. Budget
d. Portal Workgroup (new chair)
e. First report from the CDS Citizen Definition Workgroup

V. Concerns of RA Members

VI. Adjournment
Transcript

[9:03] Arria Perreault: cn we start?
[9:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I might need it to keep the people awake
[9:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patti !
[9:03] Patroklus Murakami: are we quorate? i think we are
[9:03] Arria Perreault: Hi Imotali
[9:04] Arria Perreault: yes, we have a quorum
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Imotali
[9:04] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Arria
[9:04] Imotali Antiesse: Tor
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Fances, Jeroma
[9:04] Frances Ying: hello
[9:04] Arria Perreault: Welcome to everybody
[9:04] Jeroma Wycliffe: Hi all
[9:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Hello all 🙂
[9:04] Arria Perreault: I open the meeting
[9:04] Arria Perreault: you have the agenda in the amphora
[9:04] Arria Perreault: and the recorder is on
[9:04] CDS Official Amphora owned by Arria Perreault gave you ‘RA Agenda 21th March’ ( slurl.com/secondlife/Colonia%20Nova/15/165/42 ).
[9:05] Arria Perreault: we start this meeting with the new agenda
[9:05] Tor Karlsvalt: I have a concern
[9:05] Arria Perreault: concerns of citizen are now at the beginning
[9:05] Arria Perreault: who want to speak?
[9:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: hurrah !
[9:05] Tor Karlsvalt: i do
[9:05] Arria Perreault: Tor first
[9:06] Arria Perreault: any other person?
[9:06] Arria Perreault: Tor, you have the floor
[9:06] Tor Karlsvalt: ok
[9:06] Tor Karlsvalt: only concern is that we need to establish a date to remove the snow from CN and AA and NFS
[9:07] Tor Karlsvalt: I think we have passed two dates already
[9:07] Sonja Strom raises hand
[9:07] Tor Karlsvalt: it was my understanding that the date was 3/01
[9:07] Tor Karlsvalt: then 3/20
[9:07] Tor Karlsvalt: thats all.
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Sonja?
[9:08] Sonja Strom: I can speak to this.
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: welcome Calli
[9:08] Sonja Strom: So far as I know the date for the melting of the snow has always been the 21st of March,
[9:08] Callipygian Christensen: Hi Stui
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s citizens concerns at the moment
[9:08] Sonja Strom: which is today
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Evening Gelf
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Hi Gelf
[9:09] Sonja Strom: yesterday we had a gathering to begin replacing the plants that had snow on them,
[9:09] Sonja Strom: with a party afterward.
[9:09] Gelf Yalin: hi all
[9:09] Sonja Strom: It was fun and went well,
[9:09] Pip Torok: hi Gelf
[9:09] Sonja Strom: and now there are no more plants with snow on them on public land,
[9:09] Sonja Strom: so far as I know.
[9:10] Sonja Strom: The snow is melting right now on Neufreistadt,
[9:10] Sonja Strom: and will be in the other sims after that, completed by the end of today.
[9:10] Sonja Strom: Thanks
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arias and Calli you can take a seat you know… we don’t charge yet
[9:10] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks
[9:10] Arria Perreault: any other concerns from citizen?
[9:11] Callipygian Christensen: I’d wrinkle mah skirt Stui 🙂
[9:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we should have an iron
[9:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: welcome Sol
[9:11] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sol 🙂
[9:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: take a seat
[9:11] Arria Perreault: who want to speak?
[9:11] Solomon Mosely: hey lil 🙂
[9:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s Citizens concerns at the moment
[9:12] Solomon Mosely: hi stu 🙂
[9:12] Arria Perreault: yes, CDS citizen take talk
[9:12] Arias Ahren: Stu
[9:12] Arias Ahren: Cant seem to sit today
[9:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arias
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: arias is concerned about the seating
[9:13] Arria Perreault: this point of the agenda has a time limit of 15 minutes
[9:13] Arias Ahren: Hi
[9:13] Mikelo Serevi: have the pose balls rezzed for you, arias?
[9:13] Tor Karlsvalt: is your AO on Arias
[9:14] Arias Ahren: I am sorry my seating functions dont seem to
[9:14] Arria Perreault: if noboby want to talk, I suggest we move to the next point
[9:14] Arias Ahren: Sorry for the interruption
[9:14] Timo Gufler agrees with Arria
[9:15] Pip Torok agrees with Arria
[9:15] Arria Perreault: so we move to the administrative part
[9:15] Arria Perreault: 1. Get agreements to record session.
[9:15] Arria Perreault: I think it’s ok
[9:16] Arria Perreault: b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
[9:16] Arria Perreault: do the RA members agree with the agenda?
[9:16] Lilith Ivory: do we have all info we need to talk propperly about sacromonte?
[9:16] Pip Torok: yes
[9:17] Mikelo Serevi: the agenda seems fine to me 🙂
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: did anyone get in touch with Satir ?
[9:17] Gelf Yalin: yes
[9:17] Arria Perreault: Lilith, if we consider we don’t have, we can postpone the topic
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: i think we can begin the discussion lilith. yes to agenda
[9:17] Imotali Antiesse: yes
[9:17] Lilith Ivory: yes than
[9:18] Arria Perreault: can we go with this agenda?
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: GL is here
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks, Stui!
[9:19] Arria Perreault: if there is no opposition, I suggest we keep it so
[9:19] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Gwyn
[9:19] Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: GL
[9:19] Pip Torok: hi Gwyn
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: welcome to RA
[9:19] Arria Perreault: c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: do you like my Tee shirt ?
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s Pip’s lips
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s still rzzing
[9:20] Pip Torok: wd like to speak to IVe
[9:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (really it’s Mikelo’s)
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:20] Arria Perreault: does any citizen want to speak during the meeting and for which point?
[9:20] Sonja Strom: Pip, you are an RA member 🙂
[9:20] Frances Ying: i just want to listen, i will not speak
[9:20] Pip Torok: (sorry)
[9:21] Arria Perreault: yes, I ask citizen only
[9:21] Arria Perreault: 🙂
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we scrap this agenda item IIc in future and assume that anyone can speak on any subject
[9:21] Arria Perreault: nobody?
[9:21] Lilith Ivory: I agree with Pat
[9:21] Arias Ahren: I also agree
[9:21] Mikelo Serevi: You’re welcome to listen, Frances, it’s an open meeting
[9:21] Frances Ying: thank you
[9:21] Arria Perreault: any= citizen, Pat
[9:21] Arias Ahren: You never know when something will emerge
[9:21] Mikelo Serevi: Well, was there a reason this item is in place?
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: any = any RA member, any citizen so yes arria 🙂
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: I think it’s to avoid a shouting match, personally
[9:22] Arria Perreault: and I would suggest they raises their hand first
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: But a rule that people have to raise their hand could work just as well
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: it was used to prioritise time for the RA to speak but it’s not really fulfilling a purpose now
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: yes
[9:23] Arria Perreault: do we have a motion telling taht any citizen can talk in any point of the agenda after have asked the LRA?
[9:23] Arias Ahren: I don’t have the ability to raise my hand in my gestures
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: yes, propose that
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: I second
[9:23] Arria Perreault: a second?
[9:23] Mikelo Serevi: lol arias
[9:23] Pip Torok Arias you can say /me raises hand ….
[9:24] Arias Ahren: Thanks
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: IM me if you wish a gesture for tat (I’ll send you one, Arias!)´
[9:24] Arias Ahren: Okay
[9:24] Arria Perreault: we have a motion and we need a second
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: I seconded already
[9:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we could have flags
[9:24] Mikelo Serevi: the ‘hey’ one might work, too
[9:24] Solomon Mosely: oh gwen, i’ll take one of those 🙂
[9:24] Arria Perreault: sorry
[9:24] Arria Perreault: so let’s vote
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I saw 2 seconds…\
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[9:24] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:24] Pip Torok: aye
[9:24] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:24] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[9:24] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oui oui
[9:25] Arias Ahren: Aye
[9:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: LET ME DO IT!!…
[9:25] Arria Perreault: I say aye
[9:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye !
[9:25] Arria Perreault: motion caries
[9:26] Arria Perreault: so I will not ask anymore at the beginning of the meeting
[9:26] Arria Perreault: but citizen have to ask firt before to talk
[9:26] Solomon Mosely: oh, is that what that was about?
[9:26] Solomon Mosely: clever
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: I think it’s a great idea, thanks pat
[9:27] Arria Perreault: I will give the floor to anyone who is asking of course, but I think we should let RA members finish their talk
[9:27] Arria Perreault: we can move to the next point
[9:27] Solomon Mosely: thanks gwen 🙂
[9:27] Arria Perreault: no prior items
[9:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t metion it 🙂
[9:28] Tor Karlsvalt: can i says something
[9:28] Solomon Mosely: ooOo.. and the adamant hand raise, i like it 🙂
[9:29] Tor Karlsvalt: I thing the 15 minutes at the beginning for citizen concers is still a good idea
[9:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Welcome Dee !
[9:29] Tor Karlsvalt: In odrder to address things that might not be on the agenda
[9:29] Arria Perreault: (Tor have asked to talk ;-))
[9:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: come sit with me and Tor, you can help him keep his hands to himself
[9:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *LOL*
[9:29] Lilith Ivory: right Tor
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: heh, i think it just got voted down tor 🙂
[9:30] Mikelo Serevi: It seems to have worked out fine
[9:30] Arias Ahren: I agree with Tor
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: no, it didnt’ solomon
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: sorry I already stated my concern
[9:30] Solomon Mosely: oh, cool
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: I like the 15 minutes at the beginning
[9:30] Mikelo Serevi: it wasn’t voted down, we just made it so people could speak on any topic
[9:30] Lilith Ivory: imao citizens concerns come first and they are also allowed to talk anytime
[9:30] Arria Perreault: it was the idea of Stui, Tor
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: is is a good time to bring up things that are not on the agenda.
[9:30] Lilith Ivory: after raising hands ,-)
[9:30] Solomon Mosely: [9:26] Arria Perreault: so I will not ask anymore at the beginning of the meeting
[9:31] Solomon Mosely: thats what i thought that meant
[9:31] Solomon Mosely: my bad
[9:31] Arria Perreault: if any citizen express a good idea, a RA member can sponsor it and bring it in the agenda
[9:31] Mikelo Serevi: The change streamlines your method so you don’t have to declare, sol
[9:31] Solomon Mosely: ok, thanks mike
[9:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: “I have nothing to declare, except my genius”
[9:32] Arria Perreault: you have also the possibility to participate to the Town Hall and we can also bring something int he agenda
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 😀
[9:32] Arria Perreault: you can also ask a RA member to bring something here
[9:32] Solomon Mosely: of course
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (I brought cake)
[9:32] Lilith Ivory: I still think listening to citizens concerns at the beginning is a good idea
[9:33] Arria Perreault: please read again our rules of procedures where all possib ilities for citizen to bring something to the RA are described
[9:33] Arria Perreault: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[9:34] Arria Perreault: now we move to the next point
[9:34] Arria Perreault: no prior items
[9:34] Arria Perreault: only new items
[9:34] Arria Perreault: a. 7 day vote
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right!
[9:35] Arria Perreault: in the last meeting, we had a discussion about 7 day votes. DO they have to be approved or not by RA members
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traditionally, no
[9:35] Arria Perreault: Pat, I think you have looked a bit this question
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[9:35] Pip Torok: point of information: is there not automatic 7-voting for absent RA members?
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: no pip, afraid not
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: This is where an RA member can vote on an issue up to a week after the meeting?
[9:35] Arria Perreault: I give the floor to Pat, first
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: yes mikelo
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But pat is right… although this has been in use since as early as october 2006 (possibly earlier) neither Pat nor I have fund a law or procedure establishing the 7-day vote as a possibility…
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[9:36] Arria Perreault: he will report on this point and then we can discuss
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* sorry!
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: i was asked in a previous meeting where the 7-day vote procedure is in our rules
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: after searching and enlisting gwyn in the search… i couldn’t find it!
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: so, i’m not sure if this was ever a law or part of the rules of procedure
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: or just custom and practice
[9:37] Lilith Ivory: I´d suggest to have the transcropts more early so absente members have a chance to vote
[9:37] Arria Perreault: ok. so we have to fill the gap …
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: but it has been part of RA meetings since at least 2006
[9:37] Timo Gufler: good point, Lilith
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: so, yes, we should fill the gap and make it clear and transparent
[9:37] Lilith Ivory smiles
[9:37] Pip Torok: agree
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest amending the RA rules of procedure so that any member who is absent from a meeting can request a 7-day vote if they tell the LRA before the meeting
[9:38] Arria Perreault: I agree also
[9:38] Pip Torok: if thats a motion i second it
[9:38] Arria Perreault: thank you,Pip
[9:38] Timo Gufler: me too
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: apologies for not drafting some text for today but i would hope this would be easy to agree?
[9:38] Arria Perreault: we can vote
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or can we not have 7 days following a vote before the result is declared official
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: therefore allowing retrospective voting
[9:38] Callipygian Christensen raises her hand
[9:39] Pip Torok: aye
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in view of further reflection and information
[9:39] Arias Ahren: Aye
[9:39] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:39] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:39] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so making the judgement more accurate
[9:39] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: stui, can we come to your point after this vote?
[9:40] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[9:40] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: doesn’t my point rather offer up an alternative approach ?
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: effectively allowing every RA member 7 days with which to adjust their vote
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: allowing them more time to ponder ?
[9:41] Arria Perreault: Pip, Imotali, Stui, you votes?
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[9:41] Mikelo Serevi: Sounds chaotic to me
[9:41] Solomon Mosely *raises hand*
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it means that they can do more fact finding also
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: you can’t raise that in the middle of a vote stui. it’s motion-second-vote. we can come on to your point after
[9:42] Imotali Antiesse: yes, aye..
[9:42] Arria Perreault: I give the floor only after the vote and Stui will be first in the line
[9:42] Imotali Antiesse: (sorry had a bad connection these days)
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:42] Arria Perreault: I vote aye too
[9:43] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[9:43] Arria Perreault: Stui, you have the floor
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: okidoky
[9:43] Arria Perreault: (then citizen)
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well my primary concern over this matter relates to people of busy social lives who may not be at a PC throughout the week or two weeks of the period
[9:44] Lilith Ivory: but what if for some reason a RA member does not know about the meeting?
[9:44] Solomon Mosely: *citizen sol*, i like that 🙂
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if they as lil just helped me with
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don’t know about the meeting
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they lose their vote
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and well
[9:44] Pip Torok: i voted aye ../ hope its in the record
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: also like I said
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we extend voting to the seventh day after the original declaration
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then people can come to a better judgement through looking for information to support their position
[9:46] Pip Torok raises hand
[9:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it would in theory perhaps reduce the pressure to decide in a 2hr period or less
[9:46] Arria Perreault: Pip
[9:46] Solomon Mosely: two minutes really….
[9:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so perhaps reduce the tennis like back and forward arguments that sometimes arise from a lack of broad perspective upon a subject to be decided upon
[9:47] Pip Torok: imo an RA member will eith know regular meeting dates or else take pains to find them out … therefore knowing about it is imho specious …done
[9:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as well as making sure that all RA votes are decided by the whole body
[9:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not the part that have declared their interest in voting pre meeting or at meeting
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: that’s what the forums are for stui. we can discuss issues there too in between meetings
[9:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: also one must consider the shaky connectivity of SL
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have always been sceptical of the forums
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as have many
[9:48] Arria Perreault: there are also the town halls too and the workgroups
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there are
[9:48] Arria Perreault: for important topics, we have a WG
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but I don’t see how my proposal harms the process
[9:48] Pip Torok: why are you sceptical when pat has given a perfectly adequate reason for them?
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if anything it enhances the reliability of it
[9:49] Arria Perreault: Stui, I would see you concern in an other way
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: because Pip I have seen how they are used 🙂
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it’s not always in the manner of mature adults
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or respectful equals
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami will want to speak against this proposal but wants to hear citizens’ input first
[9:49] Arria Perreault: we could decide that we don’t vote the same day an issue was brought in the RA
[9:49] Pip Torok: but Stui … things misused doesnt make them less useful with their legitimate function
[9:50] Arria Perreault: yes, Soloman have the floor
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it makes them less efficient
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and less respected
[9:50] Arria Perreault: Solomon*
[9:50] Callipygian Christensen coughs
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s like a gossip column sometimes
[9:50] Pip Torok b egs to differ
[9:50] Callipygian Christensen: My hand was raised some time before Solomon’s I believe
[9:50] Arria Perreault: we listen to citizen now, STui
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: naaaaah 😉
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my apologies to Sol
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also to Calli
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: brb
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: well,, i agree with the proposals purpose jsut voted on, for absent RA mambers
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: np
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: but,
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: i dont quite remember the exact context, but i seem to remember the last time this was brought up, and the reason it was made an issue was,
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: because an RA member, who was present, wanted 7 days to think on and research the issue before voting
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: which the voted proposal didnt address
[9:53] Solomon Mosely: and was in question when it was braought up, if i remember a few weeks ago properly
[9:53] Solomon Mosely: done
[9:53] Arria Perreault: Callipygian
[9:54] Callipygian Christensen: Apparently theere is some question as to whether I am a citizen and have a right to speak
[9:54] Arria Perreault: you have the floor
[9:54] Callipygian Christensen: I’ll make my comments then, but accept that they may have no relevance if I am not
[9:54] Lilith Ivory: Hi Caro 🙂
[9:54] Solomon Mosely: oh, sorry, but to pips point, which i agree with, the meetings are scheduled in advance, as are agenda items, but as we all know, things come up in here “un-agendaed” and come to vote sometimes
[9:54] Callipygian Christensen: Could I get an explanation of why the 7 day vote is preferable to proxy voting so that a passed motion IS passed and not defeated retroactively or vice versa?In addition, further research of an item is usually covered by tabling -and with a tabled motion coming up there is a responsibility for an elected person to be present, or assign their proxy when the vote comes up.
[9:54] Arria Perreault: always our rules of procesures ….
[9:55] Gelf Yalin: I would like to Motion that Stui’s proposal be tabled so that we can have time to form a committee to explore the ramifications of this proposal on our constitution as well as the exact perimeters of this proposal. I would also like to see a forum discussion created on this. Obviously it is important for us to all be properly informed of exactly what we would be agreeing to and the best way to do it
[9:55] Arria Perreault: does any RA member want to answer
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: i\m not sure we considered proxy votes….
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well can I say something ?
[9:56] Pip Torok: second Gelf’s motion
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: but the 7-day system has worked well
[9:56] Arria Perreault: we have a motion and we will vote
[9:56] Timo Gufler agrees with Pat
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: prime example is today, GL was late to the meeting and so CAro is yet to TP…
[9:57] Delia Lake raises her hand
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what if the meeting attendee is simply late
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and misses the vote ?
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: does tabled = postpone discussion ? it means different things in the UK and US!
[9:57] Arria Perreault: after the vote, I suggest we answer to Calli or we find a way to give her an answer
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but was intending and expecting to be here ?
[9:57] Arria Perreault: Gelf?
[9:57] Gelf Yalin: yes, tabled=postpone discussion
[9:57] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:57] Arria Perreault: we can vote
[9:58] Lilith Ivory: yea could we please speak so a non lawyer non native speaker can understand also 😉
[9:58] Gelf Yalin: my apoligies
[9:58] Pip Torok: 🙂
[9:58] Arria Perreault: Gelf , explane your motion and then we vote
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn second Lilith 🙂
[9:58] Lilith Ivory: ty 🙂
[9:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Yay for simple language
[9:59] Gelf Yalin: I would like to have a committee be formed to discuss the 7 day rule and possible alternatives such as proxies…then report back to us after having explored the ramifications on our system, constitution, etc. I would also like a forum discussion set up. This way we can explore the best way to do this
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: can we debate gelf’s motion before we vote?
[10:00] Arria Perreault: the motion was seconded
[10:00] Pip Torok: imho “table” a proposition is standard wording in discussions and debates …..
[10:00] Callipygian Christensen: Ime, tabling usually occurs after discussion has made it clear that an informed vote is not possible at that time (I leave this said as I have RL committments to attend to)
[10:00] Gelf Yalin: right, I think an informed vote is not possible at this time
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: imho asking for clarification wasn’t a crime punishable by being made to feel inferior for asking the question
[10:01] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Calli
[10:01] Arria Perreault: ok, we can discuss the motion
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* @ Stui 😉
[10:01] Arria Perreault: Pat, you have the floor
[10:01] Gelf Yalin: I am always happy to explain my language and am sorry if I was not understood
[10:01] Callipygian Christensen: I will look to the transcript for the answer re: proxy voting -thank you all..enjoy your day
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: i am happy with following up on the forums, or inworld, on the idea. but i think a commision is too much!
[10:02] Arria Perreault: Gwyn?
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: i think we could reject stui’s proposal on the grounds that we would further delay decision making
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: well, it does seem a bit excessive for this issue
[10:02] Solomon Mosely: agrees pat
[10:02] Gelf Yalin: raises hand
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: the RA already has a bad rep for taking action
[10:02] Arria Perreault: Gelf
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: so delaying *every* vote for 7 days would make us even less effective
[10:03] Solomon Mosely: it seems fairly straight forward, but perhaps one should call for 7 days to consider 🙂
[10:03] Gelf Yalin: I think that this fundamentally changes how voting works and is an issue that should be explored, along with looking at proxies….as specific lanaguage would have to be written a committee is appropriate
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: i think the points he raises could be dealt with by 1) RA member being active and 2) participating in forum discussions
[10:03] Timo Gufler: delaying vote for 7 days would make it difficult to track what is actually decided
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all 🙂
[10:04] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[10:04] Arria Perreault: Gwyn had also a question
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* 🙂
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think I have already given a few scenarios that confound the present proposal
[10:04] Solomon Mosely: yes timo, especially considering that now RA meets every 14
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or rather, a comment
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or should I say approved procedure
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (do I have the floor, Ms LRA?)
[10:05] Arria Perreault: yes, Gwyn
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (I’m just IM’n Caro to inform her what she missed btw)
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat already explained what I wanted to say regarding even more delays… the idea of having in-world meetings is that decisions are made in real time, in a meeting. The 7-day vote is supposed to be an *exception*, not a *rule* for decision-making.
[10:05] Arria Perreault: (I did too)
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, we would have in efefct two votes…
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One in real-time, during the RA meeting,
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: another in 7 days…
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… I really don’t like double-voting on issues 🙂
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As for the proposed commission to discuss proxies for RA members…
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine that this is brought to the RA for voting
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’m fundamentally against this idea (sorry, Gelf 🙂 )
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We, RA members, are the elected representatives
[10:07] Tor Karlsvalt: raises his hand
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you know, some of our citizens are already not comfortable with a representative democracy!
[10:07] Lilith Ivory: I think if a RA member decides he/she has not enough info to vote he/ she should be alowed to ask for 7 day vote
[10:07] Gelf Yalin: raises hand
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would they say if we would allow… reprsenttaion as proxies?
[10:07] Arria Perreault: (ok Tor, I give the floor after Gelf’s answer)
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think my proposal has more than one shape to be fair
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be even a further-removed barrier between citizen’s wishes and what actually gets voted.
[10:08] Arria Perreault: Gelf, can you answer to Gwyn
[10:08] Gelf Yalin: ok
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think you see my point. Votes in the RA are non-transferable, but individual. Ty.
[10:08] Gelf Yalin: the thing is that I feel that a segment of people here feel like we are always just voting their ideas down
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: done 🙂 (or almost done… I could go on all day hehe )
[10:09] Tor Karlsvalt: I think RA votes should be as transparen as possible, and in the meeting. This will avoid the LRA having to keep all sorts of tallys on the vote during a 7 day period
[10:09] Gelf Yalin: so I thought that rather than do that again I would propose a committee
[10:09] Pip Torok wonders why we make special arrangements for those who won’t read the Forum
[10:09] Gelf Yalin: since Stui and others feel that they are not being listened to
[10:09] Arria Perreault: Ok. we have talked a lot about this topic
[10:09] Gelf Yalin: this would give them the oppostunity to have their ideas fully explored
[10:09] Gelf Yalin: in an orderly way, and then reported back to us
[10:10] Arria Perreault: do we postpone it to the next meeting and create a discussion on the forum?
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: gelf proposed to create a commission, if there is a second, we should vote on that motion…
[10:10] Arria Perreault: or do we vote Gelf’s motion?
[10:10] Pip Torok: second
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: yes, we should vote on gelf’s motion first 🙂
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now we have a second, we vote 😀
[10:11] Arria Perreault: we had a second for the motion too
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: i vote nay
[10:11] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:11] Pip Torok: aye
[10:11] Arria Perreault: we vote on the postpone?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I vote nay too
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nay to the commission, Arria…
[10:11] Timo Gufler: nay
[10:12] Frances Ying: i need to go, thank you everyone
[10:12] Arria Perreault: you vote for Gelf’s motion
[10:12] Imotali Antiesse: abstain
[10:12] Arria Perreault: I cast your votes
[10:12] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Frances
[10:12] Arias Ahren: Nay
[10:12] Frances Ying: bye
[10:13] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[10:13] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[10:13] Mikelo Serevi: I’d like to hear more
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am not so inflexible as to say that I wouldn’t ask for more time to consider (after all it’s key to my point at present)
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, we can continue to discuss 🙂
[10:14] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[10:14] Mikelo Serevi: I think we should
[10:14] Carolyn Saarinen: abstain
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am confused as to what we are voting on
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can someone clarify I was dealing with a couple of things on the trot
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, we’re voting to create a commission that would study the feasability of having proxies to vote for RA members.
[10:15] Solomon Mosely remembers delia had raised her hand a while back…
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: we are voting on gelf’s motion to postpone debate and create a commission to consider your ideas and the proxy votes issue
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: by proxies we mean sit in vote makers ?
[10:15] Arria Perreault: (I know, SOlomon)
[10:15] Gelf Yalin: that and Stui’s idea to have an automatic 7-day
[10:15] Arria Perreault: I want every vote first
[10:15] Gelf Yalin: the commission would explore voting change ideas
[10:16] Arria Perreault: we are not voting on the principle, but on hte commission
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly. On the commission only
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can we hear Dee’s point ?
[10:16] Arria Perreault: 4 votes are missing
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙁
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami notes that we have been discussing RA procedures for an hour now and hopes we will move on soon….
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oh no we can’t she’s crashed *LOL*
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww
[10:16] Lilith Ivory is waiting for Stuis vote 🙂
[10:17] DeliaLake Beaumont: I came in duplicate as I could tell I was crashing
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was interested to see what Dee would say on account she’s SC
[10:17] Arria Perreault: Timo, did you vote?
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Delia’s duplicate 🙂
[10:17] Imotali Antiesse: Hehe
[10:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I remember Timo voted Nay
[10:17] Timo Gufler: yes, I vote: nay
[10:18] Timo Gufler: voted
[10:18] Arria Perreault: Stui, Lilith, Timo and me
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ok I think we are waiting on me reading back (I apologise) I think I understand it now
[10:18] Arria Perreault: ok, ty Timo
[10:19] Tor Karlsvalt: lillith i think voted nay
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[10:19] Lilith Ivory: I`m still waiting for Stuis vote
[10:19] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:19] Tor Karlsvalt: ok
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t see what harm can be of further thinking
[10:19] Tor Karlsvalt: sorry
[10:20] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I vote Aye
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we need time to think
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not a clean cut issue
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think we can all say that much is true
[10:20] Tor Karlsvalt: mytitle AFK
[10:20] Arria Perreault: 4 aye, 5 nay, 2 abst
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami proposes that we move to the next item on the agenda
[10:21] Mikelo Serevi: well, voting is straightforward really
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: voting is
[10:21] Arria Perreault: any second?
[10:21] Mikelo Serevi: second
[10:21] Pip Torok: second
[10:21] DeliaLake Beaumont raises her hand
[10:21] Arria Perreault: I add to you proposition, Pat, that we open a discussion int he forum
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: fine 🙂
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but anything that means we hand away our votes through lack of planning or incidental restriction would be rather silly
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to consider it as a simple thing
[10:22] Arria Perreault: we cann vote now to postpone the topic to the next meeting
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[10:22] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I register a 7 day vote for next meeting just incase the bus from the hairdressers breaks down ?
[10:22] Pip Torok: aye
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:22] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles @ Stui
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and aye
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: public transport isn’t what it used to be
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: dammit stui, rofl
[10:23] Timo Gufler: aye
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the drivers don’t even smile
[10:23] Arias Ahren: Aye
[10:23] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:23] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and they try to upend you in a cascade of bags and products and grannies you collect on the way down the aisle
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[10:24] Imotali Antiesse: ok, aye
[10:24] Lilith Ivory is happy never to leave her computer
[10:24] Arria Perreault: Stui,
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: infact let it be said I would like perpetual 7 day votes whether I ask for them or not, as each meeting I might have a chaotic last minute need to not be here but I don’t wish to be muted 🙂
[10:24] Tor Karlsvalt: mytitle
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[10:24] DeliaLake Beaumont mulls over stui’s comment about “grannies” as being one she doesn’t think badly of them…….
[10:24] Arria Perreault: aye
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Delia….
[10:25] Arria Perreault: motion carries. I’ll add this topic on th next meeting
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: IV b then? 🙂
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but Dee you’d think badly of me if I was walking down the bus and the driver stomped on the brakes and I took you down the bus as I stumble about 🙂
[10:25] Arria Perreault: who want to write something in the forum
[10:25] Arria Perreault: Gelf?
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not I
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m too honest
[10:25] Pip Torok knows its a great feeling being a grandad/mum
[10:26] Arria Perreault: I will make sure we open a thread
[10:26] Arria Perreault: Delia, I am sorry
[10:26] Arria Perreault: do you wan tot add something?
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’lle be a loose thread
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the backside will fall out of the pants
[10:26] Arria Perreault: or maybe or next meeting 🙂
[10:27] Arria Perreault: so we move to b. Sacromonte project
[10:27] Arria Perreault: This idea comes from the last Town Hall meeting
[10:27] DeliaLake Beaumont: ahemmmmmmmm
[10:27] Arria Perreault: ok, Delia, you can talk
[10:27] Lilith Ivory: is anybody here to give us propper information about the status quo of that Sim?
[10:28] Sonja Strom raises hand
[10:28] Arria Perreault: wait
[10:28] Arria Perreault: first I want to give a chance to Delia to talk because she asked to talk
[10:29] DeliaLake Beaumont: ty. from the perspective of theSC, i would just like to say that absent a legal base for the 7 day vote, and that this has been accustomed procedure for a couple of years
[10:29] DeliaLake Beaumont: it would be a good idea for the RA to adress this issue post haste
[10:29] DeliaLake Beaumont: otherwise you risk challenges to any resolutions passed using that
[10:29] DeliaLake Beaumont: ty
[10:30] Arria Perreault: thank you Delia
[10:31] Mikelo Serevi: what issue? I thought we legitimized the 7-day thing just now
[10:31] Arria Perreault: yes, it was my meaning to
[10:31] DeliaLake Beaumont: if that happened during my crash I apologize
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: we did mikelo. the RA determines its own procedures and has just done so
[10:31] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:31] Arria Perreault: b. Sacromonte project
[10:31] Arria Perreault: let me say some words first
[10:32] Arria Perreault: then RA members
[10:32] Arria Perreault: than citizen
[10:32] Arria Perreault: the begining of the idea was the waiting list for parcels in AA
[10:33] Arria Perreault: the homestead sim of Sacromonte is empty now
[10:33] Arria Perreault: empty means also no fees
[10:34] Arria Perreault: and to give to the people who are waiting for parcels in AA, a development project in Sacromonte could be a good thing
[10:34] Arria Perreault: I may add it could be a challenging project for the whole community
[10:34] Arria Perreault: during the meeting, a lot of ideas were brought about the theme we could develop there
[10:35] Arria Perreault: I open the discussion for RA members
[10:35] Arria Perreault: Lilith you have asked to speak
[10:35] Lilith Ivory: imo it´s empty at the moment but prepaid for 6 or 12 month
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *puts his hand up*
[10:35] Lilith Ivory: as I said I lagg the correct information
[10:36] Carolyn Saarinen: Wasn’t there a plan to use it for a feria project?
[10:36] Lilith Ivory: yes there was I think
[10:36] Pip Torok raises his hand
[10:36] Arria Perreault: Pip
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *dances about with his hand in the air like he needs the toilet*
[10:37] Arria Perreault: (if the fees are prepaid, it gives more time for the project)
[10:37] Pip Torok: o ne point … that the design blends well in with the 2 surrounding sims in regard to path, landscape etc … done
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: oh stu…..
[10:38] Arria Perreault: Stui
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yes Sol ?
[10:38] Solomon Mosely shakes his head
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: and to the name of the Sim
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: Stui brought a quite good explanation at the last townhall meeting
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well firstly we need to talk to Satir, she’s got the creative background on AA sim appearence
[10:38] Timo Gufler: When was it decided that Sacromonte would be bought?
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and second
[10:39] Lilith Ivory: before the merger as far as I know
[10:39] Timo Gufler: ok
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: pre wasp vote it’d seem difficult to make anything but a temp resolution to house the waiting list
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: plus
[10:39] Arria Perreault: Patroklus, when Stui is finished
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we’ll have to check on the history of the area in RL on account the name given is unrelated to the era of C13th
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also we may need to check there was not prior designs for the land
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account it could form a source of discontent with the AA citizens
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: <<<<

Permalink.

Agenda

I. Concerns of Citizens

II. ADMIN
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
d. 7-day votes

III. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)
a. Budget
b. 7 day vote (permanent 7 day vote)
c. Portal Workgroup (new chair)
d. First report from the CDS Citizen Definition Workgroup
IV. NEW ITEMS

a. Organisation of meetings to discuss the continuation of the merger

V. Concerns of RA Members

VI. Adjournement
Transcript

9:03] Arria Perreault: Hi Yekaterina
[9:03] Arria Perreault: welcome
[9:03] Yekaterina Kalchek: Hello Aria
[9:03] Arria Perreault: Hi Mikelo
[9:03] Mikelo Serevi: hi 🙂
[9:03] Patroklus Murakami: believe me yekaterina, the spectators don’t often remain silent ! 🙂
[9:04] Lilith Ivory smles
[9:04] Arria Perreault: Hi Stui 🙂
[9:04] Imotali Antiesse: and it about to begin – now 🙂 (stui)
[9:04] Arria Perreault: how are you?
[9:04] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui
[9:04] Pip Torok: no they don’t :-))
[9:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Hello I know you all missed me 🙂
[9:04] Yekaterina Kalchek: You have NO idea how silent this girl is going to be, Patroklus
[9:04] Pip Torok: HAHA!
[9:04] Kaseido Quandry: hey Stui!
[9:05] Arria Perreault: Timo cannot attend the meeting
[9:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn belatedly says hi
[9:05] Arria Perreault: we wait for Gelf and Caro
[9:05] Pip Torok: and Gelf cannot attend, Arria
[9:05] Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
[9:06] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pip
[9:06] Arria Perreault: and Caro?
[9:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Evening all 🙂
[9:06] Arria Perreault: we can start the meeting
[9:06] Lilith Ivory looks at Stui
[9:06] Pip Torok: evnin’ all!
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what did I do Lil ?
[9:07] Arria Perreault: I have put the agenda in the ampahora
[9:07] CDS Official Amphora owned by Arria Perreault gave you ‘RA Agenda 11th April’ ( slurl.com/secondlife/Colonia%20Nova/15/165/42 ).
[9:07] Lilith Ivory: do you know anything about Caro?
[9:07] Lilith Ivory: I was not online much lately
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Hi Sonja 🙂
[9:07] notetaker 2.0.1: You have already signed in.
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: maybe she hasn’t realised it’s on ?
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: she didn’t say anything to me
[9:07] Sonja Strom: Hi everybody 🙂
[9:08] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sonja
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Ms Chancellor 🙂
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can’t sit on AP’s lecturn
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: won’t let me 🙁
[9:08] Arria Perreault: I propose we start
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: try a seat stui 🙂
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’ll sit on your knee Pat
[9:08] Arria Perreault: The first point on the agenda is I. Concerns of Citizens
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you’ll enjoy that 🙂
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: i’d prefer it if u didn’t 🙂
[9:09] Arria Perreault: time-limit: 15 minutes
[9:09] Arria Perreault: I give the floor to the citizen
[9:09] Arria Perreault: who want to talk?
[9:09] Kaseido Quandry raises a hand
[9:09] Arria Perreault: Kaseido, you have the floor
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: Um, just a quick announcement/request
[9:10] Arria Perreault: (don’t forget the recorder)
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: I’m writing a term paper on political discourse online –
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: and I’d love to interview anyone with experience in government in the CDS, fairly briefly,
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: over the next week or so
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: about a half hour of general questions
[9:11] Kaseido Quandry: so if anyone’s willing, please just IM me, anytime
[9:11] Kaseido Quandry: that’s it, thank you!
[9:11] Arria Perreault: thank you. Very interesting
[9:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: welcome Arias 🙂
[9:11] Arria Perreault: we hope to read you 🙂
[9:11] Arria Perreault: Hi Arias
[9:11] Lilith Ivory: Hi Arias
[9:12] Arias Ahren: Hellow everyone.
[9:12] Kaseido Quandry: I’ll have the paper available on my website once I get a grade, and I’ll be happy to supply copies to anyone who wants one
[9:12] Arria Perreault: Who wants to talk?
[9:12] Arria Perreault: we still have some minutes for citizen concerns
[9:13] Arias Ahren: I was under the impression that RA had been cancled
[9:13] Mikelo Serevi: last week for easter
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP I’m just gonna ask the groups if they want to come to RA
[9:13] Arria Perreault: which groups?
[9:13] Arias Ahren: As some of you may know there was some concerns expressed over a post that I made on the boards.
[9:13] Arria Perreault: I have sent two notices
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AA and CDS
[9:13] Arria Perreault: with AA and CDS groups
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just gonna do a group iM thing
[9:13] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: this new viewer is a bit bad for showing new notices etc
[9:14] Arria Perreault: Arias, we have changed the date of the meeting
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: agree stui
[9:14] Arria Perreault: (yes, Stui, I am back on the old viewer)
[9:14] Arias Ahren: I see
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: don’t worry about the forum nonsense too much arias. feeling’s are running a bit high at the moment (for no really good reason)
[9:15] Arria Perreault: it was Easter and many people had holidays
[9:15] Arias Ahren: Okay Pat
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: take it with a pinch of salt 🙂
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[9:16] Arias Ahren: I am.
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: (i hope that translates into various other languages ok)
[9:16] Arria Perreault: does anyone want to talk
[9:17] Lilith Ivory: anyway having a regional commision meeting would be a good idea 🙂
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes 😀
[9:17] Arria Perreault: Stui has sent messages through the groups chats
[9:17] Arias Ahren: I agree.
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: seemingly not
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I suppose we can always ask again at the end of the day
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[9:17] Arria Perreault: Lilith, I have called a meeting for next week. it’s in the forums
[9:17] Lilith Ivory: ah ok 🙂
[9:18] Arria Perreault: if the date is not good, we can change
[9:18] Mikelo Serevi: people can always voice concerns, of course
[9:18] Lilith Ivory: I¬¥ll try to make it 🙂
[9:18] Arria Perreault: good 🙂
[9:18] Arria Perreault: We are talking about the regional committtee of LA and CN
[9:18] Arias Ahren: I don’t know the date Arria, but I will try and attend.
[9:19] Lilith Ivory: friday 16th 3pm
[9:19] Arria Perreault: Friday
[9:19] Arria Perreault: thx Lilith
[9:19] Lilith Ivory smiles
[9:19] Arias Ahren: Okay
[9:19] Arria Perreault: Arias, I have visited your museum in LA
[9:19] Arria Perreault: it looks great, very interesting
[9:20] Arria Perreault: (still 5 minutes for citizen concerns)
[9:20] Pip Torok: (note to himself to go see!)
[9:20] Arias Ahren: I had voiced concerns about some things that were on the beach in LA.Some people were upset for my doing so.
[9:20] Mikelo Serevi would like to see the museum too
[9:20] Lilith Ivory: your post was not very polite Arias
[9:21] Arias Ahren: I am working on the real show for the museum
[9:21] Imotali Antiesse: I had dropped by once Arias, looks great.
[9:21] Pip Torok apologises for a couple of towels lying german-like out on the beach
[9:21] Arias Ahren: In the mean time I have done my best to assemble a few things
[9:21] Lilith Ivory: hehehe
[9:21] Arias Ahren: Thank you
[9:21] Arias Ahren: I at the very least wanted to light the place up.
[9:21] Arria Perreault: Hi Jayme
[9:22] Arria Perreault: welcome to the RA meeting
[9:22] Kaseido Quandry: hi Jayme!
[9:22] Jayme Mistwalker: hi
[9:22] Pip Torok: always a good idea, Arias
[9:22] Jayme Mistwalker: sorry rezzing
[9:22] Arria Perreault: we still have 2 minutes, if someone wants to say something
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should just move on? i hope we can keep to two hours today (nice supper being made :))
[9:24] Arria Perreault: if it is not the case, we can move to the next point
[9:24] Arria Perreault: II. ADMIN
[9:24] Arria Perreault: a. Get agreements to record session
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees
[9:24] Pip Torok: agrees
[9:24] Arria Perreault: Next time, i’ll take this point with citizen concerns, as we publish all the transcript
[9:25] Arria Perreault: clic on the recorder
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn touched that too hehe
[9:25] Arria Perreault: then
[9:25] Arria Perreault: b. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
[9:25] Arria Perreault: The agenda is in the amphora
[9:25] Pip Torok: request move IIIc to after IVa
[9:26] Arria Perreault: Portal Workgroup?
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Pip 🙂
[9:26] Pip Torok: yes …
[9:26] Arria Perreault: any second?
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: second
[9:26] Arria Perreault: thank you
[9:26] Arria Perreault: vote
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is some wisdom in that…. I agree
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:26] Pip Torok: aye
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[9:26] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[9:26] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:27] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[9:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:27] Arria Perreault: aye
[9:27] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[9:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry I was temporarily blinded by fixing an LED miners hat type lamp
[9:28] Arria Perreault: can we move with the amended agenda?
[9:28] Pip Torok: yes …
[9:28] Arria Perreault: good
[9:28] Arria Perreault: c. Inquire for speakers on today’s agenda items.
[9:29] Arria Perreault: in fact, this point should not be there anymore
[9:29] Arria Perreault: sorry
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: aah, thought so 🙂
[9:29] Arria Perreault: d. 7-day votes
[9:29] Mikelo Serevi: np
[9:29] Arria Perreault: Timo has asked for a 7 day vote
[9:29] Pip Torok: err Budget???
[9:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
[9:29] Pip Torok: (sorry)
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[9:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we wanted Gordon brown to speak about the budget
[9:30] Pip Torok: lol
[9:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but he’s too busy ruining a country to come
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft lol
[9:30] Pip Torok: the Libdems will love Stui …
[9:30] Arria Perreault: we can move to the next point: ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING
[9:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not after last week
[9:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wrote to a lib dem lord
[9:30] Arria Perreault: a. Budget
[9:31] Arria Perreault: I will give the floor to our Chancellor
[9:31] Arria Perreault: Sonja
[9:32] Arria Perreault: the Chancellor has to report about the budget in the RA
[9:32] Sonja Strom: Our honorable Members of the Representative Assembly,
[9:32] Sonja Strom: I am here to talk with you about the budget for the CDS.
[9:33] Sonja Strom: I can provide information,
[9:33] Sonja Strom: and have some thoughts about it,
[9:33] Sonja Strom: and some suggestions.
[9:33] Sonja Strom: Ultimately it is the community that will decide what it wants to do,
[9:34] Sonja Strom: and as its elected representatives, you are all a part of making these decisions.
[9:34] Sonja Strom: To begin,
[9:34] Sonja Strom: I believe there are 3 major issues for us to discuss.
[9:35] Sonja Strom: One is that the accounting procedures and methods are not standardized across all of the CDS sims.
[9:35] Sonja Strom: The second is how much we want to spend.
[9:35] Sonja Strom: The third is how we want to distribute the spending.
[9:35] Sonja Strom: I also have two other smaller issues I would like to talk about,
[9:36] Sonja Strom: which are that some citizens are not paying their tier on time, and how we could try to improve this system,
[9:36] Sonja Strom: and whether or not we could offer Mikelo some payment for his work as RA Archivist.
[9:37] Sonja Strom: So, to begin talking about these topics,
[9:38] Kaseido Quandry waits, eagerly
[9:38] Sonja Strom: I would like to make it clear that arriving at a strong budget is difficult at the moment.
[9:38] Sonja Strom: One reason why is because of differences in tier collection methods
[9:39] Sonja Strom: and accounting methods
[9:39] Sonja Strom: between the original sims of the CDS and the new ones.
[9:40] Sonja Strom: By new ones I mean, of course, Al Andalus.
[9:41] Sonja Strom: Another major difficulty is that this is a slow time in the RL world and the SL world.
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *sings la vie en rose*
[9:42] Sonja Strom: If our expenditures stay the same as they have been up to now, the CDS will be very close to losing money, or actually losing money.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: One thing we can do is to refer to the budget for last term,
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami sits up and takes extra notice
[9:43] Sonja Strom: posted by Jamie here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2575
[9:43] Sonja Strom: Another thing we can do is to refer to the overall financial reports made by Sudane.
[9:43] Sonja Strom: The one for the last month compiled is to be found here:
[9:43] Sonja Strom portal.slcds.info/uploads/media/ … b_2010.pdf
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Isn’t it true that CDS is rich tho ?
[9:43] Kaseido Quandry: oh thank the gods, an actual spreadsheet
[9:44] Kaseido Quandry: TOTAL EQUITY 2218489
______________
[9:44] Sonja Strom: The one to give a current overall financial picture is to be found here: spreadsheets.google.com/pub= … utput=html
[9:44] Sonja Strom: Are you all able to see these?
[9:44] Lilith Ivory: yes
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[9:45] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:45] Imotali Antiesse: yes, thanks
[9:45] Arria Perreault: yes
[9:45] Kaseido Quandry: what’s the unit of account in the last one? $L or $US?
[9:45] Sonja Strom: good
[9:45] Pip Torok: yes (though difficult to take-in while listening …)
[9:45] Kaseido Quandry: (oh I see, nvm)
[9:45] Sonja Strom: In the last one, the unit of account is L$ in thousands.
[9:45] Sonja Strom: ok 🙂
[9:46] Sonja Strom: For example, if we look at that last spreadsheet,
[9:47] Sonja Strom: Last month the CDS net revenue was L$272,000.
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you’re suggesting to simply use last trm’s budget (it was never fully expended btw) I’d be fine with that..
[9:47] Sonja Strom: Thanks Gwyn, we can talk about that 🙂
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure 🙂 sorry to interrupt!
[9:48] Sonja Strom: no problem Gwyn, so far as I am concerned we are in community discussion about this.
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:48] Sonja Strom: L$272,000 sounds good,
[9:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not like we are two brass tacks from bust is it ?
[9:49] Kaseido Quandry: 2 million linden reserve, if I’m reading this correctly
[9:49] Sonja Strom: but if we look at the overall financial picture over the last six months,
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I mean sheesh if I tried to stuff all that in my top I’d have a rack like two hindenburgs
[9:49] Kaseido Quandry sprays
[9:49] Sonja Strom: over the last six month period CDS net revenue has been L$-233,000. That is, a loss of L$233,000)
[9:49] Sonja Strom: Per month, I mean…
[9:50] Sonja Strom: For this reason, it is very difficult to make a projected net revenue for operations.
[9:50] Pip Torok: is anyone in this room with a background in accountancy …
[9:50] Kaseido Quandry: is that because the nonprofit sims are billed quarterly?
[9:50] Sonja Strom: Payment into the CDS reserve has normally been 25% of net revenue,
[9:50] Pip Torok: … if so their 2nd opinion wd be useful imho
[9:50] Sonja Strom: but right now we are very close to breaking even or making a loss,
[9:50] Sonja Strom: so payments into the reserve are not really happening.
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is making a loss all that bad if you have significant excess ?
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami is a mathematician and finds this confusing!
[9:51] Kaseido Quandry is a former corporate finance attorney, and can at least read this stuff
[9:51] Sonja Strom: Instead we have been taking money out of the reserve to finance our normal operation expenditures.
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I mean why have such high tier and yet have such a volume of excess lindens ?
[9:52] Pip Torok: sounds a cause for concern to this non-accountant
[9:52] Kaseido Quandry: I’ve been wondering that, Stui
[9:52] Sonja Strom: So far this term our expenses for executive positions have totaled L$3,000 per month.
[9:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if you could encourage more people to arrive by cheaper tiers could you not then have more ability and so lower costs of producing things and so forth ?
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: the largest item of discretionary expenditure is events. we could make some economies there
[9:53] Pip Torok: (arrive?)
[9:53] Sonja Strom: Our webportal hosting cost has been USD 10/month, around L$2820 per month.
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: lower tier = less income
[9:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat with all due respect
[9:53] Kaseido Quandry: so, cut community services while maintaining officer’s salaries?
[9:54] Kaseido Quandry: I
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what is the benefit of making economy on the most exciting part of the sims ?
[9:54] Kaseido Quandry: I’ve heard that before soemwhere…
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is what draws people in
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: look at Feria
[9:54] Sonja Strom: For events so far this term, including the Inaugural Ball, we have spent L$39,500.
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: we spend peanuts on civil service salaries, tons on events
[9:54] Pip Torok: agree
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yes
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: because events build community
[9:54] Sonja Strom: More or less this comes to around L$38,000 per month for events.
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true… events are more expensive hehe
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the civil servants should to a point do what they do for the love of it
[9:55] Arria Perreault: I suggest we let SOnja explane, then we can comment
[9:55] Sonja Strom: As you are already seeing 🙂
[9:55] Sonja Strom: – One major issue for the community to consider is,
[9:55] Sonja Strom: how much do we want to keep expenditures the same as they have been or reduce them?
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: some of us make a committment to the sims without payment or expectation of monetary benefit
[9:56] Kaseido Quandry: Sonja, can you explain the variability in amounts due to LL?
[9:56] Sonja Strom: If our expenditures stay the same, our finances will be somewhat unstable,
[9:56] Sonja Strom: but we will be supporting as much as we were before.
[9:56] Sonja Strom: If our expenditures go down we might be less attractive,
[9:57] Sonja Strom: , but our finances will be more stable,
[9:57] Sonja Strom: and – at least on a short term basis –
[9:57] Sonja Strom: more healthy.
[9:58] Pip Torok raises hand
[9:58] Sonja Strom: It seems to me like it would be good for us to have a conversation about this as the next step in our decision-making.
[9:59] Arria Perreault: Pip
[9:59] Arria Perreault: Pip, you asked to speak
[10:00] Pip Torok: well “needs must ” is the watchword in the UK nowadays … so I suggest we follow Sonja’s suggestion and reduce expenditure in the short term …
[10:00] Pip Torok: done
[10:00] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: makes sense to me
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I suggest that we look at how we spend money
[10:00] Arria Perreault: other comment?
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and do it wisely
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that some of what I heard rather beggars belief
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: especially in view of it’s lack of basis in fairness
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to reduce money used on events would reduce the number of new citizens
[10:01] Arria Perreault: I have looked a bit our legislation. It seems that the RA doesn’t have to vote on the budget
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: our events are the only outreach we have
[10:01] Arria Perreault: the Chancellor has only a duty to report
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and to pay citizens as civil servants
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well there are people doing the jobs we would pay someone to do… well they are doing them for free
[10:02] Pip Torok realises stui’s concern but still of the same opinion
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and are we then to raise all people who commit time to admin
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: up to the level of paid civil servants to make it fair
[10:02] Arria Perreault: in my point of view, it should be a task of the RA to approuve a budget and even some big expenses
[10:02] Kaseido Quandry: how many rental properties are currently available in the CDS, and how many of those are publicly listed for rental? It would seem raising revenues is preferable to cutting services
[10:02] Pip Torok: agree
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or are we to raise the payments to the approved appointed civil servants and further poke in the eye the volunteers ?
[10:03] Sonja Strom: It is also my understanding that there is no requirement for the RA to approve the budget,
[10:03] Sonja Strom: however, I also this is a good time for the RA to be involved in the direction it takes.
[10:04] Arria Perreault: I think the civil servant are not well paid, if we compare with what we pay to artists for events
[10:04] Arria Perreault: I respect the work of the artists, of course
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I will say that it’s rather tough for many here to comment
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that I didn’t actually see many at the last event in any great number
[10:04] Arria Perreault: but the civil servants get for a month less than one artist for one concert
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami raises his hand insistently, like he needs the loo!
[10:05] Arria Perreault: Stui, you can find all details of exepnses on the portal
[10:05] Arria Perreault: Pat
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: ty 🙂
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: i agree stui that we should look at all expenditure
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: so 7k a month for salaries needs to be looked at
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: but if 38k a month is being spent on events then, in my opinion, thats too much
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so we put economies on what we have spent
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: we started a budget for evetns as ‘seedcorn’ to get them started
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: but it seems to have spiralled out of control
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to increase another aspect ?
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: this is our citizens money we are spending
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I suggest that to see the value of events
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: and we should make sure we do so in line with their wishes
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: if ppl are happy to spend that much on events, so be it
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: but we shouldn’t assume that
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we should plot a graph of events versus new citizen recruitment
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and see that it will spike with an event
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: and we need to be much more careful in a recession
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: as a low-tax, low-spend socialist (not too many of them around i grant you)
[10:07] Pip Torok: but we havnt the data to draw that graph, Stui … imo thats the core-problem
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: i would prefer to see tier rates lowered than spent on events
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all 🙂
[10:08] Arria Perreault: I have soemthing to say about the financing of event
[10:08] Arria Perreault: I think that CDS should sponsor events and not finance them totally
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I would say that the civil servants would probably only have to use the increase in their salary to pay the exorbitantly high tier here
[10:08] Arria Perreault: except for some official events like the inaugural ball or Oktoberfest
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so what we give in one hand we take away in the other
[10:09] Kaseido Quandry: has anyone examined how much revenue has been lost by not listing available properties for rental?
[10:09] Arria Perreault: Stui, Gwyn has explane once that it was the aim of the cicvil servant positions: to help some people to afford their house
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: does it help… or does it give them a house ?
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it doesn’t pay enough for a house
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then that’s one concern I could share
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: because if to be a citizen you need to be landed
[10:10] Sonja Strom: Yes, if someone contacts me with an offer to help with things, we can talk about them receiving payment for it,
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as looks to be the case
[10:10] Sonja Strom: and they can use this payment towards their tier.
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: towards….
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I see
[10:11] Arria Perreault: Kaseido, we have to ask for a bit more money in case all plots are not rented
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so even a civil servant would have to personally contribute to be able to be a citizen here
[10:11] Arria Perreault: we also need money for extension projects
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to me that doesn’t offer much incentive still
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I recall bringing up the cost of citizenship on many occasions
[10:12] Sonja Strom: For example, someone could be a civil servant and have all of their tier paid by thier help with the functions of the CDS.
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and being told that it was within the grasp of all
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and that if it wasn’t they could be a civil servant to pay for their house
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami wonders why tehe focus is on 7k of expenditure (and not all of those positions are even filled) when 38k is the larger number…..
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Pat
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: good point pat
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: now I learn that they can have to contribute
[10:13] Pip Torok: certainly is …
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Honestly, I love volunteering work, but in my experience, people actually feel better when they get a “comittment” to work… and get paid a small fee
[10:13] Arria Perreault: I think we should work on a legislation about the budget to make sure that the RA can study a budget, make strategic decisions and approuve the budget and all the biggest expenses
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: i agree arria
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: we should develop a more thorough budget process
[10:13] Pip Torok: agee, arria
[10:14] Arria Perreault: I am ready to work on a proposal for a legislation
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think it’s a mistake to cut the events
[10:14] Arria Perreault: with anyone who wants to work with me
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I think that if you ask those who attended feria
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they’d see that to be true
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat did you enjoy feria ?
[10:14] Arria Perreault: Stui, the question is not to cut in the expenses, but to spend strategically and safely
[10:15] Kaseido Quandry wonders why the focus is on cutting expenditures when you’re forgoing revenue opportunities
[10:15] Mikelo Serevi: in my experience, it’s easier to save money than to earn it…
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I wonder why we consider cuts when we are sitting in the black like a fly with it’s ass in the ink well
[10:15] Mikelo Serevi: something many govts seem to forget
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: i think it’s better to cut back than cut out. we will still have events!
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat do you attend events ?
[10:16] Sonja Strom: It is possible for us to have events that do not cost a lot of money.
[10:16] Sonja Strom: For example, a panel discussion.
[10:16] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, those with marketable skills or assets rarely have that problem – I would hope rental property in CDS would be seen as such an asset
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hm
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: will they be professional sonja ?
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: stui, i try to take decisions based on what’s best for the CDS, not what i prefer to do here
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or are we cutting our most vital source of interest?
[10:16] Arria Perreault: I propose we continue the discussion on the budget with Sonja’s other issues and that we talk about a new legislation about the budget in the next meeting
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well how can you comment when I can’t recall seeing you samplin the events ?
[10:17] Pip Torok: second
[10:17] Sonja Strom: Stui, it seems to me like they could be professional.
[10:17] Arria Perreault: thank you Pip
[10:17] Mikelo Serevi: kasiedo, tell that to nicolas cage
[10:17] Arria Perreault: we vote on this motion
[10:17] Pip Torok: aye
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: stui. it’s not just the ‘events regulars’ who get to have an opinion. it’s my money too!
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well it ought to have some bearing upon it
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:18] Arria Perreault: we vote now to discuss a legislation about the budget next meeting
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s somewhat like telling the vet your dog has fleas over the telephone and expecting him to take your word for it
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: it has no bearing on it. ppl who have never attended an event get to have an opinion
[10:18] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not a very informed opinion is it ?
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami: only in your (ill informed) opinion
[10:19] Arria Perreault: Lilith, Stui, your vote
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: no pat
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I know about the events
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I go there
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I don’t expect to be paid for serving here
[10:20] Arria Perreault: Stui, we are voting
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or in anything I do in CDS
[10:20] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so I see it rather different
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye
[10:20] Arria Perreault: I vote aye too
[10:20] Pip Torok:
[10:21] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t expect to be paid either but i reject the oppressive notion that only *some* ppl get to have an opinion
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I didn’t say only some people had an opinion
[10:21] Arria Perreault: I will prepare a proposal for the next meeting. Sonja, we can discuss your next issue
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I implied only certain opinions carry value
[10:21] Sonja Strom: Thanks.
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: Stui, I think it entirely depends on whether you’re here to grow a vibrant community, or for the politics – if you’re here for the politics, the community doesn’t really matter, yes?
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the uninformed opinion being one such
[10:21] Pip Torok: yes thanks
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: yeah, and that’s what’s oppressive stui
[10:21] Sonja Strom: Once we have determined how much we want to spend,
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not oppressive
[10:22] Sonja Strom: then we can talk about how to distribute the expenditures.
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s logical and common sense
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: let’s continue this another time stui. our debate is just interrupting the meeting now
[10:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: agreed
[10:22] Arria Perreault: Stui, we will have an opportunity to continue the discussion
[10:23] Sonja Strom: These two issues inter-relate, because of the kinds of aspects that have been raised already in this conversation.
[10:23] Sonja Strom: There are the CDS-wide expenditures,
[10:24] Sonja Strom: which are the executive allowances, and the web portal hosting costs,
[10:24] Sonja Strom: but the other costs are mostly based on a location.
[10:24] Sonja Strom: Such as an event.
[10:25] Sonja Strom: My suggestion is, we distribute those finances regionally,
[10:25] Sonja Strom: to the regional committees to decide how they would like to spend the money.
[10:26] Sonja Strom: We could have an equivalent distribution per sim…
[10:26] Sonja Strom: although, some sims are homestead sims with few residents.
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: are these funds earmarked for events only? or could the regional committee decide it would prefer to offer a tier discount instead?
[10:27] Pip Torok: (maybe half the portion to homesteads?)
[10:27] Sonja Strom: One way we could deal with that would be to determine the prim usage for each area.
[10:27] Sonja Strom: Patroklus, it seems to me such a decision is what we are considering in this conversation here,
[10:28] Sonja Strom: and allowing the regional council to make community decisions is something I would recommend.
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Sonja is there a link between the expenditure and the accruement ?
[10:29] Sonja Strom: One reason why I think this could be good is, it would allow for equivalent representation across the CDS in the area of financial expenditures.
[10:30] Sonja Strom: Stui, that is a good question.
[10:30] Pip Torok raises hand
[10:30] Sonja Strom: From everything I know, at the moment,
[10:31] Arria Perreault: (when Sonja is finished, Pip)
[10:31] Sonja Strom: if we look at the big picture of the finances of the CDS,
[10:31] Sonja Strom: every area is spending more than it is taking in.
[10:31] Sonja Strom: There is not any area of the CDS, so far as I know, that is currently at a positive balance.
[10:32] Sonja Strom: Have I answered this question adequately?
[10:32] Pip Torok: i.e. a deficit!
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is it a case of speculation
[10:32] Sonja Strom: Yes, unfortunatley.
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to reap reward later ?
[10:32] Pip Torok: mmm 🙁
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait… *all* areas are operating as a deficit!?
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean all sims, Sonja? 🙁
[10:33] Sonja Strom: Gwyneth, I mean themes.
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: how great is the deficit
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in percentage terms ?
[10:34] Sonja Strom: Some sims are operating with a small positive balance,
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: do we have a percentage ?
[10:34] Sonja Strom: but overall, in my understanding, there is no theme in the CDS where this is the case.
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are the figures tested ?
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah… per theme
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: this is really serious. we are dipping in to our reserves. spend income, not capital!
[10:35] Pip Torok: (like the UK as it happens …)
[10:35] Sonja Strom: Stui, it is difficut for us to arrive at specific figures that mean very much for any specific point in time,
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: quite 🙂
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s then difficult to make a qualitative analysis
[10:36] Sonja Strom: partly because the methods of collecting tier and accounting differ between the old CDS sims and the new ones,
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: therefore it’s even more tough to make an informed judgement surely?
[10:36] Arria Perreault: Sonja, are you talking about all expenses or only the fees to LL?
[10:36] Sonja Strom: and partly because the new sims are on a 6-month cycle for payment of their tier to LL.
[10:37] Kaseido Quandry: ahh, that answers the question I asked earlier – it’s a balance of payments issue
[10:37] Sonja Strom: So at present it makes the most sense for us to look at the overall cycles.
[10:37] Kaseido Quandry: you’re *going* to have fluctuations if your income is monthly and your expenses are semi-annual – this is obvious
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Is AA in deficit ?
[10:37] Sonja Strom: If we look at the overall cycles, the CDS is operating at a negative balance.
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when analysed seperate ?
[10:38] Sonja Strom: Stui, I was trying to avoid this question, lol
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I like to ask the difficult ones
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it lets me know that I do my job
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[10:38] Sonja Strom: Alright 🙂
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: Stui, it seems inconceivable if they’re being billed at nonprofit rates, and charging market tier to renters
[10:38] Sonja Strom: Stui, because you have asked…
[10:38] Sonja Strom: I will give you an honest answer.
[10:39] Sonja Strom: I want to be clear it is not an answer I want to give – –
[10:39] Sonja Strom: At the moment, if one looks at the overall finances of the CDS,
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: kas, there are relatively few private lots though and lots of public land in AA. so the nonprofit benefit evens out
[10:39] Kaseido Quandry: thanks Pat, that makes sense
[10:39] Sonja Strom: the area that is the biggest drain to the finances is Al Andalus.
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and how ?
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in your opinion ?
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s at full occupancy now
[10:40] Sonja Strom: Largely Stui, this comes from its events.
[10:40] Mikelo Serevi: So what about all this jibba jabba of filling all plots and how CDS doesn’t do it right?
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and are these events of detriment to the sims ?
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with all due respect
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are analysing facts
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not looking to put the knife in
[10:41] Pip Torok supports Mikelo’s point
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there’s no need for that comment
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: yeah, and we’ve heard a lot in tha past how AA is great at selling land
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it serves no constructive purpose
[10:41] Arria Perreault: I think also that AA has a lot of public land
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: so I’m having trouble understanding this, but let’s move on
[10:41] Arias Ahren: What will happen to the overall finances if AA withdraws from CDS?
[10:42] Kaseido Quandry: I’d like to see actual financial statements- and I’d like to see the *RA* see actual financial statements, and not be arguing over hearsay
[10:42] Arria Perreault: I asked since long time for a masterplan of AA to see how cost a prim in average
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wasn’t aware that I was about to bring RA into a bash the “new sims” humour
[10:42] Sonja Strom: Yes, it is true that Al Andauls has a large amount of public land.
[10:42] Lilith Ivory agrees with Kas
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I apologise to the citizens that it has taken this turn
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then also
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: you did bring it up, stui
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: won’t the deficit now be slightly more offset on account of the full occupancy
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I did mikelo
[10:43] Sonja Strom: Kaseido, toward the beginning of this conversation I gave links to some financial statements.
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I didn’t take a swipe at CDS
[10:43] Arria Perreault: Now we have to see how we can move forward
[10:43] Sonja Strom: Shall I give them again?
[10:43] Kaseido Quandry: Sonja, they don’t allow you to evaluate the financial status of AA vis a vis CDS
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t see that it’s good political sense to take a swipe at AA
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the citizens are part AA
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you serve them too
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: remember that
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don’t disrupt the meeting
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: stui, it just puts some of the AA triumphalism we have seen recently in perspective
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: but i agree that we don’t need to make heavy weather of this
[10:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: apparently it does
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: we are all in this together after all
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depending on these unqualified figures
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: which sonja will say
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are tough to quantify
[10:45] Kaseido Quandry: I’ve heard an opinion from Arria, I have not seen any documentation to support it or refute it
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and are actually yet to be given range
[10:45] Sonja Strom: If you would like I can make a report showing the finances of the old sims vs. the new sims as best I am able,
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we are now pulling forward in AA
[10:45] Arria Perreault: ALl the datas are on the portal regarding expenditures
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and decreasing deficit
[10:45] Pip Torok: that I would like, Sonja
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then that is hardly the case
[10:46] Sonja Strom: but it seems to me that would be counterproductive to the cooperation we want to have in our community.
[10:46] Arria Perreault: all the datas for 2009 are available
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you haven’t asked what direction the financesare heading in
[10:46] Arria Perreault: each expense is there
[10:46] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t think we should hide from the facts, frankly
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so don’t celebrate before the horse has crossed the line
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: Sonja, data can’t be counterproductive, compared to the sniping currently going on
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what are the facts Mikelo
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as yet
[10:46] Arria Perreault: the only thing we don’t have is a masterplan of AA
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I haven’t seen them presented beyond the shadow of doubt
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t have them here
[10:47] Sonja Strom: Alright – in that case, don’t get mad at me later for having made these comparisons!
[10:47] Arria Perreault: number of parcels, fees for each parcels, average price for prim
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I haven’t studied them
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: have you ?
[10:47] Sonja Strom: I would much rather talk about the CDS as a whole.
[10:47] Arria Perreault: if someone can get this datas, I would be happy
[10:47] Pip Torok: and me too, Arria
[10:48] Sonja Strom: The *only* reason I will create such a report is because it was requested by you, I want that to be very clear.
[10:48] Arria Perreault: with this master plan, we could compare AA and the rest of CDS concernaing the incomes from land, without waiting the payements
[10:48] Arria Perreault: we can now at least virtually the incomes we can expect from AA, when it is full rented
[10:49] Arria Perreault: now I think we should allow money to each regional committee proportionnally to their incomes
[10:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP
[10:49] Arria Perreault: thier potential incomes
[10:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I ask
[10:49] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are there some areas of the CDS that have no expenditures ?
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in terms of the high costs
[10:50] Arria Perreault: in events you mean?
[10:50] Sonja Strom: Stui, I am sorry, but I don’t understand your question.
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and do we propose percentage allowance
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or equal ?
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well you see
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we have this pot of money
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the budget
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and we are going to give each region a chunk of it
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but if one area spends very little
[10:51] Arria Perreault: why not
[10:51] Sonja Strom: That is my suggestion Stui, yes.
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and another spends a ton
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then isn’t that just meaning that in the interests of equality
[10:51] Arria Perreault: each committee will get a budget
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that dead space is going to restrict the living ?
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry nods at Stui
[10:52] Arria Perreault: many people have asked we do also something in LA and CN. we will need money too
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami wonders which parts of the CDS stui considers to be ‘dead space’
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like pouring money into a cemetery for it to be a concert hall
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I didn’t say I had one in mind Pat
[10:52] Mikelo Serevi: We did try regional comittees before, right?
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s just a term
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or a turn of phrase
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: pretty offensive language if you ask me
[10:53] Arria Perreault: they are there
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that’s nice
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t dress it up
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I say it like it is
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: especially when the suggestion is that one part should subsidise the other
[10:53] Sonja Strom: Stui, here is one answer I can give to your question:
[10:53] Sonja Strom: There is no area of the CDS where there is never a request for expenditures.
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but there are lower ones ?
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t necessarily have a problem with that, but at least try to be grateful 🙂
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I stand for CDS
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would defend one space if I felt there was a need
[10:54] Arria Perreault: Stui, what is your idea? that we bet only in one area to promote CDS?
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you make your attacks where no one has thrown a stone
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well AP
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I always said that if you look at CDS
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: some areas
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: have specific buildings
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: correct
[10:55] Arria Perreault: like?
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well those buildings lend themselves to be venues for specific types of events
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s something like what I said before
[10:56] Arria Perreault: we have on several sims
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you wouldn’t have a rock concert in the Monastery
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: *any* community has areas that *generate* income from property taxes and areas that *spend* revenue – public facilities. There’s a certain flaw in saying they should have the same level of expenditures
[10:56] Arria Perreault: we have a wonderful theater in CN
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: therefore in the theatre you’d have certain events
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like pips poetry
[10:56] Arria Perreault: the Monastery has an other aim and doesnt work with events
[10:56] Mikelo Serevi: yes, NFS must have higher event expenses than AM, for example
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: i agree kas, but we should make a decision on that basis
[10:57] Arria Perreault: rock concernt in CN theater would be great
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: and not let it happen by default that one part subsidises another
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well then to say that the sims get equal expenditures
[10:57] Arria Perreault: we had jazz or blue concerts in the past
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: isn’t taking into account the design or make up of the sims
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, I agree that it should be a considered decision, definitely
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if a sim has a venue
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but hasn’t the funds to use it
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then that would be a problem would it not
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in which case
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: shouldn’t each sim be evaluated for viability for hosting events
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and for risk of incurring certain expenses
[10:58] Arria Perreault: we could make a list of places for events
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and then the budget be made in accordance with that evaluation ?
[10:58] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:58] Arria Perreault: now we have to go forward
[10:59] Sonja Strom: I would like to simply make one thing clear, that my suggestion was not so much about sims, but themes.
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all then you could divide the costs more quantitatively
[10:59] Mikelo Serevi: yeah, we’re getting off track
[10:59] Arria Perreault: in the current legislation, the Chancellor doesnt need a vot to have a budget. She must only make a report
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: we have had a lot of discussion on the budget. time to move on?
[11:00] Arria Perreault: we have given many inputs on the budget and I think she can work on a proposal
[11:00] Arria Perreault: or maybe you have already one, Sonja?
[11:01] Sonja Strom: Arria, I think it is important for the community to be involved in the concepts before arriving actual numbers – these can always be adjusted.
[11:02] Arria Perreault: do you need more inputs from us?
[11:02] Sonja Strom: Right now if we look at the finances of the CDS overall, we have no money to spend except from the reserve.
[11:02] Arria Perreault: so no budget ? 😉
[11:03] Sonja Strom: Exactly – our budget is based on how much we want to spend money we are not taking in. 🙂
[11:03] Sonja Strom: There are two further issues I would like to talk about in relation to the budget.
[11:03] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:03] Sonja Strom: Both can be talked about quickly (I think…).
[11:04] Sonja Strom: One is that there are some citizens who are not paying their tier on time,
[11:04] Patroklus Murakami: if we are spending only from our reserves, i would propose a spending freeze on everything apart from tier until we are in a more sound financial position
[11:04] Mikelo Serevi: how late are we talking?
[11:04] Sonja Strom: and sometimes when they do, they are only making partial payments.
[11:05] Pip Torok: Folks, I must go … thanks for a lively meeting
[11:05] Mikelo Serevi: cu pip
[11:05] Sonja Strom: Mikelo, this varies, but in some cases it never gets paid, or only partially after two months.
[11:05] Patroklus Murakami: bye pip 🙂
[11:05] Sonja Strom: Bye Pip 🙂
[11:05] Imotali Antiesse: bye Pip
[11:05] Mikelo Serevi: I think this came up before
[11:05] Arias Ahren: Take care, Pip.
[11:05] Arria Perreault: Bye Pip
[11:05] Lilith Ivory: bye Pip
[11:05] Sonja Strom: Yes Mikelo, it has.
[11:05] Yekaterina Kalchek: Bye Pip
[11:06] Sonja Strom: Especially we talked about this issue in the last Town Hall meeting.
[11:06] Sonja Strom: We have a law regarding this, which can be found here: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[11:06] Sonja Strom: It is quite complex, and is not working very well.
[11:06] Sonja Strom: I suggest that we simplify it,
[11:07] Sonja Strom: to make it easier for everybody.
[11:07] Sonja Strom: I have put some work into how to do this,
[11:07] Mikelo Serevi: it does seem overly complex, good idea
[11:07] Sonja Strom: and am letting you know about this.
[11:07] Sonja Strom: We can talk more about it later…
[11:08] Tor Karlsvalt: Have the required letters been sent?
[11:08] Sonja Strom: unless you want to say something about it now.
[11:08] Sonja Strom: Tor, in the cases where they apply, yes.
[11:08] Tor Karlsvalt: then after a month and a half we take back land?
[11:08] Sonja Strom: However, there are exceptions to sending the letters
[11:09] Sonja Strom: which are described in the later parts of the law…
[11:09] Sonja Strom: so in some cases letters have not been sent.
[11:09] Sonja Strom: However, individual IMs have always been sent.
[11:10] Sonja Strom: When you are ready I can get to the last budget issue I would like for us to talk about.
[11:10] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t see many exceptions
[11:10] Arias Ahren: I too must take my leave. Be well.
[11:10] Sonja Strom: bye Arias 🙂 you too.
[11:10] Arria Perreault: Bye Arias
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thankyou for coming Arias
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: bye arias
[11:11] Arria Perreault: ok Sonja
[11:11] Mikelo Serevi: bye arias
[11:11] Sonja Strom: It seems to me it could be good for the RA Archivist to receive a stipend of L$1,000 per month.
[11:11] Yekaterina Kalchek: bye Arias
[11:11] Sonja Strom: That is a lot of work, and I think it would be good to help that person with their tier payments.
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: Well, in light of the budget issues, maybe we can put that off a while
[11:12] Patroklus Murakami: i agree, i thought it was a paid position
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: Although, I can see the point in having a stipend
[11:12] Sonja Strom: Maybe it was Pat and I just didn’t know 🙂
[11:13] Sonja Strom: We have not had one for a while…
[11:13] Lilith Ivory: thought so also
[11:13] Arria Perreault: we should ask Sudane or look the old budgets
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: i’m pretty sure that the archivist was paid when i was LRA
[11:13] Mikelo Serevi: would it be a conflict for me to be on the RA and get paid?
[11:14] Sonja Strom: Arria, with all respect to you, it seems to me the RA can decide what it wants to do for this term.
[11:14] Arria Perreault: no Mikelo, as you work
[11:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well might I chime in ?
[11:14] Arria Perreault: Stui
[11:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I recall at a previous RA
[11:14] Lilith Ivory: I get paid also for being caretaker 🙂
[11:15] Sonja Strom: 🙂
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there was mention of the way the Archivist works
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and mention of colour coding
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and when asked we were told by Mikelo
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that he hadn’t time
[11:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: when there is a payment made for the role
[11:15] Mikelo Serevi: Actually, I use the color coding
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: will we also set a standard format expectation ?
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not the first time you didn’t Mikelo
[11:16] Mikelo Serevi: I was only rushed that time
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well yes
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then I was just interested to know if there was a standard of presentation to work to
[11:16] Mikelo Serevi: I think I was responding to pointless complaints, nit picking
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and if that would now be adhered to
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: nope
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am protecting the interests of Caro
[11:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as she’s not here
[11:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also
[11:17] Mikelo Serevi: how is caro involved?
[11:17] Arria Perreault: well, Stui the question is much more general
[11:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was interested to know if it can be standardised as you rather pointed out at that point in time due to not being paid then you set the standard
[11:17] Arria Perreault: is the position of RA Archivist paid or not
[11:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I was wondering if now that you are to be paid
[11:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we were to decide the standard
[11:18] Arria Perreault: the person in this position is not the question today
[11:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: prior to your payment being made
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami: RA archivist is a paid position
[11:18] Mikelo Serevi: it hasn’t been decided I will be paid
[11:18] Arria Perreault: so the question is already solved?
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami: yup
[11:18] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:18] Mikelo Serevi: but anyway, I have been using gwyn’s color coding, since several people asked for it
[11:18] Sonja Strom: Great, thank you 🙂
[11:19] Arria Perreault: we are finished for budget today?
[11:19] Sonja Strom: Thank you also for this conversation about the budget for our community, the Confederation of Democratic Sims.
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami: please
[11:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s
[11:19] Arria Perreault: we continue next time with a piece of legislation
[11:19] Arria Perreault: thank you Sonja, for your work
[11:20] Arria Perreault: we move to next point
[11:20] Arria Perreault: I suggest we postpone it, as Gelf is not present
[11:20] Arria Perreault: b. 7 day vote (permanent 7 day vote)
[11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Caro
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: i agree
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then when do we have a full RA ?
[11:21] Arria Perreault: I have started a thread in the forum
[11:21] Arria Perreault: all agree we postpone?
[11:21] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:21] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:21] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure… it’s not horribly urgent
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:21] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:22] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:22] Arria Perreault: motions carries
[11:22] Arria Perreault: d. First report from the CDS Citizen Definition Workgroup chaired by Mikelo Serevi
[11:22] Imotali Antiesse: (few RAs are not here now is like 7 day vote already being applied)
[11:22] Arria Perreault: Mikelo?
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: All right, we had one meeting so far
[11:23] Arria Perreault: (only Timo has asked for a 7 day vote)
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: It was fairly productive
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: One thing everyone seemed to agree on is that one plot per citizen is fair
[11:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP I asked for one too in lieu of being here… it’s an eternally renewing request on the off chance that I am held up 🙂
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: Personally, I’m not sure we can get by without any exceptions to this
[11:24] Arria Perreault: (Stui, we will discuss this point next time)
[11:24] Mikelo Serevi: We weren’t able to make a lot of progress on deciding what specific exceptions to use
[11:24] Mikelo Serevi: Opinions varied quite a lot on that
[11:25] Mikelo Serevi: And we could use more information about how many people in AA would lose a vote is we applied the one plot one citizen rule
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm.
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: We also need more information about how many people are grandfathered in as group ownership citizens only
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: i expect some non-AA citizens would lose their vote if we abolished the group land citizenship act
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: This might turn out to be a nonissue
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, it is likely to affect some people
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: I need to follow up about that and schedule another meeting to talk about my findings
[11:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: must some of the RA always make negative references to AA as if it were not equal to CDS and part of the same ?
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We still haven’t an official list of citizens, right? (sorry to interrupt)
[11:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: respect would be good
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: I’m only considering the needs of AA citizens in referring to them, stui
[11:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wasn’t aiming for your comments Mikelo
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: no negative reference made stui
[11:28] Arria Perreault: spreadsheets.google.com/pub= … utput=html
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wasn’t aware it was your report anyhow Pat
[11:28] Arria Perreault: I think CDS and AA citizen are in the list now
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I thought it was Mikelo’s
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, Arria!)
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: just chipping in with additional useful information
[11:28] Arria Perreault: ok Pat
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: mikelo is capable of making a report
[11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: he is chair
[11:29] Arria Perreault: and I am chair here now 😉
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: So that’s it in a nutshell
[11:29] Arria Perreault: Pat, will you add something?
[11:30] Mikelo Serevi: I want to make sure we make a fair decision in the end
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: well, i think mikelo has given an excellent account 🙂
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks very much, Mikelo!
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: personally, i think we should institute simpler citizenship rules as a consequence
[11:30] Arria Perreault: good
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: (at least) one plot = one citizen = one RL person
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: but we need to make allowances for a transition if ppl would lose citizenship otherwise
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: i’m thinking of ‘group land citizens’ in particular
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all
[11:31] Arria Perreault: thank
[11:31] Mikelo Serevi: That does seem to be what’s needed, yes
[11:32] Arria Perreault: I f I summarize, Mikelo will organize an other meeting and report again or prepare a proposal
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: yes 🙂
[11:33] Arria Perreault: we move to the next point
[11:33] Arria Perreault: a. Organisation of meetings to discuss the continuation of the merger (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2787)
11:33] Arria Perreault: Pat, you have the floor
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: ty arria
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: we have almost reached one year after the merger of AA and CDS
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: there is the option to dissolve the merger at the one year mark
[11:34] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2787
[11:34] Mikelo Serevi: Was June the cutoff?
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: AA is holding its own meetings to consider the issues and advise rose
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest that the CDS should hold its own meetings to advise the RA of citizens’ views
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: because this assembly can also dissolve the merger by a 2/3 vote
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: (or choose not to, of course!)
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: i think the sims were transferred in the first week of june (but I could be wrong)
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: so that woudl be the key date
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we use the next couple of ‘Town Hall’ meetings and publicise them accordingly
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all 🙂
[11:36] Mikelo Serevi: I think this is a good idea
[11:36] Arria Perreault: thank you
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second that motion…
[11:37] Arria Perreault: I think it is a good idea too
[11:37] Arria Perreault: precision: the transcripts of Town Halls are published too
[11:37] Arria Perreault: we can vote
[11:37] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:37] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:37] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:38] Arria Perreault: Imotali? Stui?
[11:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP is there still a quorum ?
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami: think so
[11:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also
[11:39] Mikelo Serevi: Incidentally, I dont’ have a complete transcript of last town hall
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: barely… but yes
[11:39] Arria Perreault: we are 7 and a 7-day vote
[11:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I might be wrong
[11:39] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:39] Mikelo Serevi: If anyone else does, I could use it
[11:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but can RA elect to demerge ?
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami: yes stui it can according to the terms of the merger agreement
[11:39] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: by 2/3 vote
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, with a 2/3 vote
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, like Pat said
[11:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just at one point there was some confusion over it somewhere
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we just have been working under the common assumption that this RA is unanimously for the merger 🙂
[11:40] Arria Perreault: Stui, we are oly voting on the organisation of discussion in the Town Halls
[11:41] Arria Perreault: not on the merger
[11:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well then aye
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, no confusions hehe
[11:41] Arria Perreault: Imotali?
[11:41] Imotali Antiesse: aye (though Im still thinking the necessity)
[11:41] Arria Perreault: I vote aye too
[11:42] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[11:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I ask
[11:42] Arria Perreault: the two next Town Halls will be a discussion about the merger
[11:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: has any of the RA been to meetings related to the merger ?
[11:42] Arria Perreault: I hope that Patroklus will accept to organise them
[11:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in AA I mean
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: I wasn’t even aware of them
[11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am trying to recall
[11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was at one
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well Imo… on the last RA, a bill was approved to make all possible efforts to get citizen’s feedback on any issues that might be pending re: the merger. This is just to make sure we do, indeed, talk about it
[11:43] Arria Perreault: most of us were not invited 🙁
[11:43] Kaseido Quandry: Pip was present
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: not allowed to attend the AA ones stui
[11:43] Imotali Antiesse: only Pip as far i remember
[11:43] Arria Perreault: Pip has a house on AA. I don’t have
[11:43] Lilith Ivory: only AA citizens were allowed to come
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ah
[11:43] Arria Perreault: yes, Stui
[11:44] Kaseido Quandry: yes, the meetings were for AA citizens only, to speak freely in advising Rose
[11:44] Arria Perreault: if not, we would all attend
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then has any of the RA organised meetings with AA citizens ?
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you know
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: just Town Hall…
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: of their own accord
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: my proposal is to allow meetings for all cds citizens
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: specifically ?
[11:44] Arria Perreault: we have voted for this Stui, and AA citizen can come to these meetings
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and thus the need for approving Pat’s proposal
[11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so the CDS meetings related to the merger
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: these ones we just approved
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AA citizens can come too ?
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: the meetings i have proposed are inclusive of everyone not excluding anyone
[11:45] Arria Perreault: yes, of course
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just checking
[11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’ll tell them
[11:45] Arria Perreault: thank you Stui
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks!
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: here’s the text of the merger agreement
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2445
[11:46] Arria Perreault: before we move to adjourn, I will check the next dates
[11:46] Arria Perreault: next week, we have the first Town Hall about the merger
[11:46] Arria Perreault: 18th April
[11:47] Arria Perreault: Next RA 25th April
[11:47] Kaseido Quandry: that’s not currently reflected on the Google calendar, btw
[11:47] Arria Perreault: 2nd May: Town Hall about the merger
[11:47] Arria Perreault: and 9th May: RA
[11:47] Arria Perreault: I will update the calender, Kaseido
[11:48] Arria Perreault: is it ok so?
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: sounds good
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with the dates
[11:48] Sonja Strom: Kaseido, she is just announcing them… but it is good to have a reminder 🙂
[11:48] Lilith Ivory: fine for me
[11:48] Arria Perreault: I will publish this and update the calender
[11:48] Arria Perreault: we can adjourn now
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds adjournment
[11:49] Arria Perreault: 🙂
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[11:49] Imotali Antiesse: 🙂
[11:49] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:49] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:49] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:49] Imotali Antiesse: Thanks Arria, aye
[11:50] Arria Perreault: Thank you for the meeting 🙂
[11:50] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew ty all
[11:50] Arria Perreault: we are adjourned
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: woot
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, I shouldn’t be *so* eager to adjourn
[11:50] Imotali Antiesse: lol
[11:50] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[11:50] Sonja Strom: Thanks everybody!
[11:50] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[11:50] Arria Perreault: 🙂
[11:51] Kaseido Quandry: again, if anybody else would be up for a half hour conversation about AA for a term paper, please IM me!
[11:51] Arria Perreault: ok, Kaseido
[11:51] Patroklus Murakami: bye everyone 🙂
[11:52] Mikelo Serevi: adios
[11:52] Lilith Ivory: bye everyone
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye bye!

Permalink.

RA Town Hall Meeting 18 April 2010: Transcript – Part 1
by mikeloserevi » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:48 pm
9:04] Patroklus Murakami: now, i’ll just send a couple of group notices and then we can begin
[9:05] Mikelo Serevi: It’s easier if I’m here the whole time. I missed 15 min of the last town hall
[9:05] Mikelo Serevi: the recorder is nice to have though, in case of crashes, net probs, etc
[9:05] Claude Desmoulins: Pat just said he was going to.
[9:06] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Kas
[9:06] Lilith Ivory: Hi Kas
[9:06] Kaseido Quandry: hi Tor- thanks for the TP – I couldn’t find an announcement with an LM
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: good turnout so far 
[9:08] Joaquin Gustav: hello
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: one day i’ll work out how to add landmarks to notices. it was so much easier with the old viewer
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: hi joaquin
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: yes, I tried the new viewer, it’s odd
[9:09] Lilith Ivory: hi Joa 
[9:09] Kaseido Quandry: it is – it’s really disorienting
[9:09] Joaquin Gustav: hello my friend
[9:09] Tor Karlsvalt: Pat could you send another notice with a landmark?
[9:09] Arias Ahren: That’s okay Cleo
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: how do you add them to notices tor? anyone know?
[9:09] Arias Ahren: I love your perfume
[9:09] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: 
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: not in viewer 2, I’m afraid
[9:10] Arias Ahren: Hummm
[9:10] Mikelo Serevi: I can send it, I have the old viewer
[9:10] Mikelo Serevi: I reverted
[9:10] Tor Karlsvalt: drop it in as an attachement
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: thx mikelo
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: pls click the recorder in the centre to indicate you are happy to be recorded for the chat log. we will post a transcript of the town hall later
[9:11] Tor Karlsvalt: seems i don’t have perms to send notices.
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: i think mikelo said he would do that tor
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: shall we get started?
[9:12] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: well, the purpose of these town hall meetings is to have more informal meetings in between the regular RA meetings
[9:13] Imotali Antiesse: oh sorry
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: so that ppl can feed in their concerns in a less formal atmosphere
[9:13] Imotali Antiesse: HELLO
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: so far they have been pretty productive
[9:13] Arias Ahren: Hello, Imo
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: and some good actions have come out as a result
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: this one has been called to discuss one issue in particular – the merger between the CDS and Al Andalus
[9:13] Imotali Antiesse: HI Arias
[9:13] Lilith Ivory: Hi Imo 
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Lilith
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: we are almost at the one year anniversary now so it’s a good time to take stock and see what has worked and what hasn’t
[9:14] Lilith Ivory: how´s your dog Imo? 
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: 
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: in addition, the anniversary of teh sim move in late july
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: found him
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: at the vet
[9:14] Imotali Antiesse: with Rose
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: is the point at which either side can disssolve the merger
[9:14] Lilith Ivory: lol
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: AA has held some private meetings on this subject
[9:15] Mikelo Serevi: have they?
[9:15] Arias Ahren: Yes
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: this is an open meeting for anyone in the CDS (both former old CDS sims and Al Andalus) to say what they think about the merger
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: this will help to inform the future RAs actions
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: we have elections in june
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: so the next RA gets to make the decision for the cds side
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: so, enough chatter from me 
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: who wants to kick off with their thoughts on the merger so far?
[9:16] Claude Desmoulins: Actually elections are in MAy
[9:16] Arias Ahren: Pat would it be innappropriate to start with a staw vote of thoses generally in favor and those opposed?
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: ty claude. my mistake
[9:16] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Solario
[9:16] Mikelo Serevi: That’s interesting timing
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: how do ppl feel about arias’ suggestion?
[9:16] Solomon Mosely: i’m for the merger
[9:17] Tor Karlsvalt: me too
[9:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I am for the merger
[9:17] Mikelo Serevi: I haven’t made up my mind yet about it
[9:17] Arias Ahren: I am as well
[9:17] Arias Ahren: I say that setting aside politics and emotions
[9:17] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: don’t like the idea of pro/con before the discussion
[9:17] Arias Ahren: Which is easy for me to do since I am so new
[9:18] Solomon Mosely: and i dont have any problem with ‘them’ having their own internal meetings about it, i would expect it
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: (notetaker is working by the way. pls click it to indicate consent to being recorded for the chat log)
[9:18] Claude Desmoulins: While at some point we will have to count noses, perhaps putting everyone into yes/no/maybe groups from the get go is polarizing.
[9:18] Lilith Ivory: I´d be very sad if AA would leave
[9:18] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree solomon
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: well, no one has to give their view now. and it can be a bit polarising
[9:18] Carolyn Saarinen: ” setting aside politics and emotions” ? How can that be done?
[9:18] Kaseido Quandry agrees with Calude
[9:18] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: agree Claude
[9:18] Kaseido Quandry: *Claude
[9:18] Solomon Mosely: good point claude
[9:18] Mikelo Serevi: Well sol, I think people might scream if CDS had a private meeting about it
[9:18] Arias Ahren: Yes, It could, but it might help clarify
[9:19] Patroklus Murakami: i am in favour of the merger and it continuing (for the record!)
[9:19] Arias Ahren: so often I leave these meetings wondering what people are really thinking.
[9:19] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: What did the AA meetings come up with, is that public?
[9:19] Arias Ahren: No
[9:19] Kaseido Quandry: they were advisory only, Rose polling AA residents for opinions
[9:19] Arias Ahren: There are many mixed feelings
[9:19] Patroklus Murakami: i’ve heard different reports of the outcome cleo
[9:20] Lilith Ivory: I think it´s just locical that the AA residents wanted to discus that by their own
[9:20] Arias Ahren: I think it would be wron to think in terms of outcome
[9:20] Arias Ahren: There is uncertanity
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: for me, its a question of how to make it work, not if it should
[9:20] Patroklus Murakami: maybe i should have said ‘content’ rather than outcome
[9:20] Kaseido Quandry: yes, it seems to be the *beginning* of the process of reaching an evaulation
[9:21] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Sol
[9:21] Arias Ahren: Rose has been silent for the most part
[9:21] Arias Ahren: she is listening to those in AA and assimilating
[9:21] Carolyn Saarinen: T oavoid criticism
[9:21] Arias Ahren: Perhaps
[9:22] Arias Ahren: she has been getting her share as is
[9:22] Tor Karlsvalt: perhaps it is best that rose is silent on the matter and is just hearing our opinions.
[9:22] Solomon Mosely: personally, i dont see what the problem is. why wouldnt we want the merger to succeed?
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: I agree Tor
[9:22] Carolyn Saarinen: No, that is her stated aim: To avoiod biasising public opinion
[9:22] Claude Desmoulins: I wish those who think that things aren’t working well would be more up front about what they see as problems.
[9:22] Solomon Mosely: yes
[9:22] Arias Ahren: She is not attending to day since she believes that she might inhibit our discussion
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we could explore what is working, and what is not working?
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: that could lead us to what needs to change to make it work
[9:23] Arias Ahren: Good thought Pat.
[9:23] Carolyn Saarinen: Give me an axe…
[9:23] Arias Ahren: Your back pocket Caro
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: mommie dearest?
[9:24] Kaseido Quandry: here’s a possible approach –
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: Hi Nohelia
[9:24] Kaseido Quandry: some of the questions raised were as to, what the benefits to AA from the merger are/have been/will be –
[9:24] Kaseido Quandry: I know I for one would be interested in your thoughts on that, in making up my own mind
[9:25] Carolyn Saarinen: Don’t see any. Quite the opposite
[9:25] nohelia Avindar: hola a todos
[9:25] nohelia’s Google Translator: hi all
[9:25] Carolyn Saarinen: As-sal√°amu :al√°i-kum
[9:25] Mikelo Serevi: hi nohelia
[9:25] nohelia Avindar: hola mikelo
[9:25] nohelia’s Google Translator: hola mikel
[9:25] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: What the merger did was .. well it wasn’t a merger it was a move that absorbed CDS and choked it and killed it.
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: so, we could look at benefits to AA and CDS. what are they?
[9:26] Carolyn Saarinen: Whay absorbed, choked and killed CDS?
[9:26] Solomon Mosely: why do you say that cleo?
[9:26] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: AA
[9:26] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS beneftis to have a very vibrant community attached to it.
[9:26] Arias Ahren: The sims in their entirity are quite impressive.
[9:26] Carolyn Saarinen: Ok, we’ll leave 
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: from the CDS perspective – we have doubled in size and new citizens have stimulated us by bringing in new and different ideas
[9:26] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it was just that it was too much at one time
[9:27] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: imo
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami is trying to look for positive benefits to begin with 
[9:27] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t agree Cleo.
[9:27] Carolyn Saarinen: No. Fine. We’ll leave.
[9:27] Solomon Mosely: i still dont hear anything of substance cleo
[9:27] Tor Karlsvalt: Really polically, I don’t see AA has having a great influence.
[9:27] Arias Ahren: A great deal of the tension relates to the merge itself
[9:27] Solomon Mosely: or you caro, why are you against it?
[9:27] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: probably no one thinks that but me so don’t worry
[9:28] Arias Ahren: Perhaps is it was actualized and behind us things would settle down and become more constructive
[9:28] Solomon Mosely: well, you havent really explained your thoughts
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: Actually, the rapid growth does tend to cause administrative problems
[9:28] Carolyn Saarinen: Against? I was never ‘for’. AA was fine. It’ll be fine again.
[9:29] Tor Karlsvalt: none that I am sure couldn’t be surmounted.
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: you mean challenges mike?
[9:29] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Wasp
[9:29] Kaseido Quandry: hey Wasp!
[9:29] Lilith Ivory: Hi Wasp 
[9:29] Wasp Thor: Hello, everyone
[9:29] Claude Desmoulins: Be back in a moment, must change devices.
[9:29] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the problem is AA doesnt want to be part of CDS, it wants to be AA
[9:29] Solomon Mosely: ok, so ‘against’ isnt the right word, how about “why didnt you want it to happen?”
[9:29] Mikelo Serevi: Slower growth allows for adjustments, fast growth can be overwhelming
[9:30] Arias Ahren: I don’t think that is a certanity, Cleo
[9:30] Solomon Mosely: it wasnt a surprise
[9:30] Carolyn Saarinen: Rose had enough affection for CDS to try an experiment. She’s been kicked in the teeth.
[9:30] Carolyn Saarinen: You don’t like us. We don’t need you.
[9:31] Arias Ahren: Rose is having a hard time with withdrawinbg from CDS.
[9:31] Solomon Mosely: yes, but thats not to say that the idea was bad. wait, who doesnt like you?
[9:31] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[9:31] Arias Ahren: It has been her home from the beginning.
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: i’m not sure that’s true caro. i’m not aware of anyone in the CDS bit (apart from cleo) who is opposed to the merger
[9:31] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: LOl, rose build AA planning to do this, she started all this years ago
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: who says we don’t like AA?
[9:31] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but that doesnt matter now. ill shut up
[9:31] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: moving on
[9:31] Carolyn Saarinen: No she did not
[9:32] Imotali Antiesse: Right now I find AA current covenant fits pretty well for its them, would there be changes if merge do happen?
[9:32] Imotali Antiesse: themes
[9:32] Solomon Mosely: i think its just a few people with personal agendas, some elitist mind about cds, but hardly worth being the leading voices for cds
[9:32] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Well, I know she did, but its neither here nor there, people let it happen.
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: which people, sol?
[9:32] Carolyn Saarinen: She inherited a situation from micael manen . and made it work.
[9:32] Arias Ahren: The things that have been created in AA are physicall magnificant
[9:33] Arias Ahren: They should be embraced and used.
[9:33] Imotali Antiesse: True Arias
[9:33] Solomon Mosely: i dont know mike, doyou ever get that feeeling?
[9:33] Carolyn Saarinen: Far better than he could ever have.
[9:33] Lilith Ivory: hi Gwyn
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: but caro, rose wanted AA to join CDS for a reason. those reasons still stand, don’t they? i’m not sure i understand why AA would want to leave
[9:33] Tor Karlsvalt: Can we not make this about rose or question motives.
[9:33] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t, no, but I’ve heard you talk about elitism before
[9:33] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Gwyn.
[9:34] Solomon Mosely: yes mike, i just invented the word, it probably doesnt really exist
[9:34] Solomon Mosely: good call
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: quite right tor, i’ll rephrase that
[9:34] Arias Ahren: There are people in AA who feel that they have been kicked around by CDS.
[9:34] Mikelo Serevi: I’d like to know who you are assusing of elitism, if anyone, sol
[9:34] Kaseido Quandry: I think she wanted to merge in order to have access to CDS’s extensive staff – have they gone to work improving conditions for AA citizens?
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: AA chose to join the CDS for several reasons. have those reasons now changed?
[9:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: How has CDS kicked around AA? I would love to know .
[9:34] Arias Ahren: No, I don’t think so Pat
[9:34] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: facts, examples?
[9:35] Carolyn Saarinen: I don’t know why the merger ever happened. Except for Rose’s idealism. But since she has been thourghly tradduced in the forums lately, she is less idealistic. I was never a convert. I want al-Andakus to be itself.
[9:35] Arias Ahren: I don’t want to mention names
[9:35] Arias Ahren: Cleo
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: Arias, are these peole here, to explan why they feel kicked-around?
[9:35] Arias Ahren: But there are those who feel as if they are second class citizens
[9:35] Tor Karlsvalt: I think both sims are better for the merger.
[9:35] Arias Ahren: No
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: arias, i think we need to hear from the ppl themselves
[9:35] Arias Ahren: and I am sorry for that
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: all this hearsay gets us nowhere
[9:36] Claude Desmoulins: Let me throw something out
[9:36] Kaseido Quandry agrees with Pat
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps it was not so much as a “change” but actually understanding what it is to live together? Sort of like the romance before the marriage cerimony, and then realising it’s not all roses in the first months of mariag? 
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, how do we know these alleged people exist?
[9:36] Arias Ahren: Hearsay is not good, I know, but sometimes that is all you have
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: arias, they are adults. they need to speak for themselves
[9:36] Arias Ahren: I am not tying to creat distance, but build bridges
[9:36] Arias Ahren: Yes, you are right pat
[9:37] Carolyn Saarinen: we’re stealing your money for our mad extravagant events aren’t we? Let us go!
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t question your integrity arias
[9:37] Imotali Antiesse: Al-Qantara
[9:37] Kaseido Quandry: I’d just like to hear an expression from a CDS veteran of what *they* see the benefits *to AA* from the merger are
[9:37] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: CDS has a mission and purpose and a culture. The thrid can change but the first two are essential to what CDS is, and AA coming into us, means they are part of our mission .. Are the people of AA interested in being part of our democratic experiment, or being AA.. the first priority? what is it?
[9:37] Solomon Mosely: well mike, why dont we ask who doesnt feel that way then work from there, sicne the ones who have felt it are so disgusted that they dont even want to look at some people anymore
[9:37] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: more citizens of a democracy.
[9:37] Solomon Mosely: much less come to meetings
[9:38] Mikelo Serevi: Who doesn’t feel what way, sol?
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: kas, i’m not an AA citizen so how can i say what the benefits of CDS merger are? presumably AA thought there were benefits before teh merger. what were they anticipated to be? what has gone wrong, if anything?
[9:39] Tor Karlsvalt: Seems that the majorit of either group avoids meetings.
[9:39] Mikelo Serevi: How can we address people’s concerns if they don’t air them?
[9:39] Solomon Mosely: cleo, as a democracy, we are flexible to change, this government is what we make it
[9:39] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: of course.
[9:39] Carolyn Saarinen: You don’t like us. Your old, old political class has never liked us.
[9:39] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, in any negotiation, in any exchange of value, both sides need to know what value it is they’re exchanging
[9:39] Kaseido Quandry: I’ve heard some discussion of what the value to the CDS of AA is or isn’t
[9:39] Tor Karlsvalt: Then AA, with its pple can change the politcal class.
[9:39] Solomon Mosely: damn minorities… hiding ou in small numbers jsut to make things dificult
[9:40] Kaseido Quandry: but if nobody here can make the case for the CDS, it leads me to think there isn’t one
[9:40] Arias Ahren: As imperfect as it is, both groups share a love for democratic ideals.
[9:40] Tor Karlsvalt: Running away for that reason doesn’t seem good to me
[9:40] Carolyn Saarinen: There isn’t. CDS is a zombie corpse.
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: kas, do you mean that no one in AA is able to articulate the benefits of remaining in the CDS?
[9:40] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: liking you isnt the issue
[9:40] Imotali Antiesse: sigh
[9:41] Carolyn Saarinen: What benefits?
[9:41] Kaseido Quandry: no, I mean that no one in the CDS is able to articulate what the CDS has to offer AA
[9:41] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: do you want to be subjects of the democratic system or not?
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: caro, that’s just rude. no one here is maligning AA in that way
[9:41] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: its a give and take
[9:41] Carolyn Saarinen: YOUR system?
[9:41] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, neither you nor the CDS has a monopoly on democracy, or its interpretation
[9:41] Tor Karlsvalt: I think AA does benefit from the tradition established in CDS for a citizen owned and administerd sim
[9:41] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the system
[9:41] Tor Karlsvalt: that is good.
[9:41] Arias Ahren: CDS has a history and reputation that in SL remains for the most part good
[9:41] Carolyn Saarinen: Perhaps AA is not malignable?
[9:41] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, there’s an answer! Thank you!
[9:41] Arias Ahren: It has that to offer anyone.
[9:41] Solomon Mosely: wow cleo
[9:41] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: no but it must have a system… dynamic yes but.
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: LOL @ caro
[9:42] Tor Karlsvalt: I think AA needs to realize that Rose might not be able to run it all the time.
[9:42] Carolyn Saarinen: we worked well before CDS. We’ll work afterwards.
[9:42] Claude Desmoulins: I’ve heard that some in aa are uncomfortable with the tone and complexity of CDs politics
[9:42] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and we are all subject to the system if we are citizens
[9:42] Kaseido Quandry: Claude, I think that’s a fair assessment
[9:42] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: CDS is politics
[9:42] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: if you didnt want politics why did you join?
[9:42] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, I believe that’s precisely the question
[9:42] Mikelo Serevi: Well, have AA citizens joined CDS without voting on the matter?
[9:43] Solomon Mosely: princesss, did you really not hear yourself just then?
[9:43] Carolyn Saarinen: I hearby volunteer to support Rose as Sultana of AA!
[9:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: 
[9:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: THE
[9:43] Mikelo Serevi: Was the merger done over their heads?
[9:43] Solomon Mosely: subjects?
[9:43] Claude Desmoulins: is that accurate?
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was a vote, Mikelo
[9:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yes sol, we are all subjects as citizens of democracy
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2 people in the whole of the AA voted against the merger
[9:43] Mikelo Serevi: Ok, so there was support for the merger in AA
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
[9:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: even theprincess was a subject to votes etc. systems
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: ooh schizo Dear
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: and my point is that AA saw something beneficial to joining with the CDS
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: so, what has changed?
[9:44] Arias Ahren: Emotions.
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: apart from the fact that we have found out the other party farts in bed and doesn’t clean up often enough?
[9:44] Mikelo Serevi: That’s a good question, pat
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Don’t ask me, I was always opposed.
[9:44] Lilith Ivory: imo Rose wanted to share the burden of caring for the Sims and this did not happen
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: indeed caro, you were 
[9:45] Mikelo Serevi: hi pip
[9:45] Lilith Ivory: hi Pip
[9:45] Arias Ahren: Hi Pip
[9:45] Carolyn Saarinen: Atill got the stake and kindling?
[9:45] Pip Torok: hi all
[9:45] Kaseido Quandry: I think Lilith’s got the right of it, which is why I’ve been asking – everybody – for what the *realized* benefits of the merger are
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami reminds everyone to click the recorder to indicate consent for the chat log
[9:46] Tor Karlsvalt: yes and I think there is the issue of the non-profit not being created.
[9:46] Arias Ahren: Kas: A larger, more powerful and impressive community
[9:46] Kaseido Quandry: Arias, that’s fair. Does that translate into improved quality of life?
[9:46] Arias Ahren: No
[9:46] Arias Ahren: Thats another matter
[9:47] Arias Ahren: and we should work to do that
[9:47] Tor Karlsvalt: I think the closeness of AA to CDS enhances my experience in world in CDS.
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: at the risk of getting lynched, AA now has the benefit of the CDS system of govnt – elections, exec and legislative branches. it has a stronger guarantee of survival beyond changes in leadership
[9:47] Tor Karlsvalt: I love walking through the sims to AA and vis versa
[9:47] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it comes down to the question then, does size matter?
[9:47] Carolyn Saarinen: Bollocks
[9:47] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t see how size affects whether a community is worthwhile
[9:47] Arias Ahren: True, Pat
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t forget the financial issues… the CDS had a surplus, but few events and little public space; the AA, by contrast, has a lot of public space and a LOT more events – but was not financially solid. The merger allows both communitis to prosper together and grow…
[9:48] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, that’s good
[9:48] Arias Ahren: And Somewhat true Miklo
[9:48] Pip Torok: Caro … why the “bollocks”
[9:48] Pip Torok: ?
[9:48] Kaseido Quandry: see, now we’re getting somewhere 
[9:48] Arias Ahren: I think tat AA has entities that are benificial
[9:48] Carolyn Saarinen: Then let us sink. bad bad AA spending other folk’s money!
[9:48] Imotali Antiesse:  Caro
[9:49] Tor Karlsvalt: Possibly Gwyn, but some of the shortfall in AA might be in recoreding tier paymets. And the shortfall seems to narrow as time goes on.
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Caro: a mark of democracies is that they help each other 
[9:49] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: What’s wrong with living within a budget?
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fortunatel, yes, Tor. But that wasn’t the case a year ago.
[9:49] Tor Karlsvalt: we are
[9:49] Arias Ahren: Nothing
[9:49] Kaseido Quandry: depends on who writes the budget, CLEO
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: don’t forget we have not yet completed the merger. the non-profit has not yet been created and we don’t have a unified rental collection system. those changes will make administration more efficient
[9:50] Arias Ahren: But if I am looking at the figures correctly AA is solvent.
[9:50] Carolyn Saarinen: ‘Bollocks’ Pip because ‘the CDS system of govt.’ is a mess
[9:50] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so fix it.
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: and gwen just highlighted specific areas where both could help each other grow
[9:50] Mikelo Serevi: How is it a mess?
[9:50] Pip Torok: I hear reasone to merge, what sre the reasons to separate?
[9:50] Carolyn Saarinen: AA worked better by itself
[9:50] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: make a plan to fix it and run for office
[9:50] Pip Torok: do all from AA agree with Caro?
[9:51] Arias Ahren: No, I don’t. Sorry Caro.
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Caro, what does “Better” mean (except for subjective feelings). Can you tag some aspects that were better objectively?
[9:51] Pip Torok: do any from AA agree with Caro?
[9:51] Kaseido Quandry: I wasn’t around before, so I can’t address that
[9:51] Carolyn Saarinen: Mikelo, have you ever been to an RA meeting?
[9:52] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, caro
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: lol, caro
[9:52] Pip Torok: Are you the only one here who’s against, Caro?
[9:52] Solomon Mosely: they totally are, but thats not a problem of the game, but the players
[9:52] Carolyn Saarinen: ‘Better’ in the sense of less acrimonious, more productive.
[9:52] Kaseido Quandry: Solomon, it’s that that’s drawn me to a neutral position with respect to the merger
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s a prolem of the RA meetings? But how do these impact the quality of life in the AA? Are there less events, less friends online…?
[9:53] Tor Karlsvalt: AA jsut accomplished a wonderful Feria
[9:53] Tor Karlsvalt: I think they have been productive
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: OK. More productive. So. What did NOT get done since the merger?
[9:53] Pip Torok: agree with Tor
[9:53] Carolyn Saarinen: My mental healthj!
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I have the same feeling, Tor ‚Äî I never have seen so much accomplished on AA *since* the merger…)
[9:53] Solomon Mosely: well, the merger
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Caro
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: ppl get too fixated on the RA as if it is the be-all and end-all of the CDS. what happens in the exec branch is much more important these days
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn promises to do her religious meetings again to take care of Caro’s mental health 
[9:53] Kaseido Quandry: Such as, Pat?
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear Pat
[9:54] Carolyn Saarinen: Atheist Gwyn
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: the chancellor has huge powers to get things done
[9:54] Pip Torok: is she, Caro ? 
[9:54] Kaseido Quandry: And what’s gotten done?
[9:54] Arria Perreault: Hi all 
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: that’s the real focus of activity in the cDS
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn doesn’t beliee in God either, fortnately that has little to do with regilion 
[9:54] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Arria
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: the RA is there to pass laws and constituional amendments
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: it’s a legislature, that’s all
[9:55] Pip Torok: well … less acrimony and we’ll all see, Kas…
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: but ppl see it as ‘the main arena’
[9:55] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: and participation in the RA is not mandatory is it?
[9:55] Solomon Mosely: who’s running the metanomics in cds now?
[9:55] Kaseido Quandry: Pip, there was *more* acrimony before?!
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: there was a LOT more acrimony before kas
[9:55] Kaseido Quandry: wow, Pat, ok
[9:55] Lilith Ivory: imo the chancellor is a little overworked at the moment, SC just woke up again and the guilt is not able to work propperly also …
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: search for any post by michel manen and you will see what i mean
[9:55] Lilith Ivory: so things happen way to slow in the CDS
[9:56] Lilith Ivory: sorry to say that 
[9:56] Arria Perreault: it was always so, Lilith
[9:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia winks
[9:56] Pip Torok: thngs tend to happen slowly in a democracy
[9:56] Mikelo Serevi: What’s the rush?
[9:56] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Lilith, seems the SC is almost dead.
[9:56] Claude Desmoulins: that’s what I was trying to point out in my post
[9:56] Lilith Ivory: yes but AA was used to something else I think
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Democracy is always slower than non-democracies.
[9:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the SC has always been almost dead.
[9:56] Kaseido Quandry: Things tend to happen slowly *in this model* – there are many kinds of democracies
[9:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but when its needed its there.
[9:57] Mikelo Serevi: yes, get a monarch and they’ll quickly make up their mind for ou
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Kas! So how could we change that?
[9:57] Tor Karlsvalt: yes, i don’t think democracy has to be slow.
[9:57] Pip Torok: in SL, Kas? … tell me where…
[9:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hehe
[9:57] Arria Perreault: yes, look the Monastery project: one hand half year to get the homestead sim
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: AA was definitely used to something else, and has its own political culture. its why there is a clash now
[9:57] Arria Perreault: and one month to build it
[9:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia drifts off in a daydream of royalty
[9:57] Kaseido Quandry: Pip, if you’d like a list of vibrant communities in SL, I can certainly get you one
[9:57] Arria Perreault: the barriers did not come from me ….
[9:57] Carolyn Saarinen: Ok. Nothing being done, as usuual. Bye.
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: aah, communities but not democracies kas 
[9:58] Pip Torok: democracies are what I mean, kas … 
[9:58] Kaseido Quandry: “18th century republic” is not the only form of democracy
[9:58] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: We cannot be compared to non democratic communities..
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What model would you favour, Kas?
[9:59] Arria Perreault: I think that democracy is slow, but what comes out of a democratic process is better accepted
[9:59] Pip Torok agrees
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m being serious… how can we change the CDS’ model so that is more, mmm, ‘pleasing’?
[9:59] CLEOPATRA Xigalia nods
[9:59] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: good question Gwyn
[9:59] Kaseido Quandry: for a small community in an online environment? I don’t think the model developed for a territorial nation-state with commuication by horseback messenger is necessarily optimal
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: I’ve always been pleased with the CDS model, it’s why I moved here
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we already did eliminate factions, made the Exec more powerful, and gave a lot of power to te Regional Committees
[10:00] Solomon Mosely: well, we’re also a mostly volunteer community, you can only get so much done, so fast, for free. especially if people arent super fired up about it
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, what should be the next step?
[10:00] Lilith Ivory: I think the model itself is great
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: factions haven’t quite been ‘eliminated’ gwyn 
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Lilith. But for the sake of the argument let’s assume that the model is nOT great, since clearly some citizens dislike it.
[10:01] Tor Karlsvalt: We should see how the new way of voting changes CDS.
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, Pat ::) You’re right hehe
[10:01] Lilith Ivory smiles
[10:01] Tor Karlsvalt: We have to give that change time.
[10:01] Pip Torok: as far as being necessary for the RA, they have, Pat
[10:01] Pip Torok: (also they are upheld by the UNHR)
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: true pip, true as far as that goes
[10:01] Arria Perreault: factions will still play a role
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let-s not assume the CDS has a @perfect@ model, but one that camges and adapts according to the wills of its citizens. What would be the next step_
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: _
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[10:02] Kaseido Quandry: I think Gwyn’s got the right of it- the question is, does each community prefer its own model as it is, or is there the prospect of a superior creative synthesis?
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: Well gwyn, I’ve heard complaints, but no one has said exactly what they want to change
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same here, Mikelo
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The purpose of the Town Hall meeting is to try to figure out *what* to change.
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: Or if anything needs to change
[10:03] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, here’s a question, by way of an answer
[10:03] Arias Ahren: Harmoney needs to change.
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: these town hall meetings were an attempt to find some common ground and include a successful feature of AAs democracy in the larger CDS one. i think they have been successful, particular today’s meeting
[10:03] Pip Torok: in one sense, the RA plus Town-Hall make a synthesis
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, if we can’t find anything *objective* to change, can we try subjective things?)
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Pip. Another change towards harmony
[10:03] Kaseido Quandry: for each of you who holds an office in the CDS, how much of your time is spent on the mechanics of government, and how much on building a vibrant and active community? How much on self-referential talking, and anow much on doing?
[10:04] Arias Ahren: Reaching acroos chasums with love in ones hand
[10:04] Claude Desmoulins: do you mean implicit culture?
[10:04] CLEOPATRA Xigalia giggles
[10:04] Pip Torok: (nice one, Arias!:)
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: well kas, i see spending time at RA meetings, developing legislative ideas as one form of contribution to our community
[10:04] Tor Karlsvalt: good question kas.
[10:04] Arria Perreault: Kas, do you believe in a state who does everythig for citizen and pay for every activity?
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: Most of my time in SL is devoted to the CDS
[10:05] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, no, quite the opposite
[10:05] Arria Perreault: The state is responsible to make good conditions
[10:05] Mikelo Serevi: I stepped up because few else seemed willing
[10:05] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, yes –
[10:05] Arria Perreault: and we do this in the RA and the exec too
[10:05] Arria Perreault: but we don’t have to pay for every concert and to organize every party
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Kas, in your opinion, we should refrain fro talking so much, and just get things done, riht?
[10:05] Kaseido Quandry: and the question is, does participating in CDS politics improve the overall community, or make it worse?
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who decides what to do?
[10:05] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: I think the best thing to do if you are “disgruntled” with our government is to get involved in and with it.
[10:05] Arria Perreault: people are responsible for that
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: i find the notion that ppl who stand for and sit on the RA and exec do not contribute rather offensive
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Cleo: work from within 
[10:06] Tor Karlsvalt: i agree CLeo
[10:06] Tor Karlsvalt: That is waht AA needs to learn to do.
[10:06] Arria Perreault: there are regional committees for that and also personal initiatives
[10:06] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, you’re welcome to find that offensive. That’s a difference in political valus
[10:06] Mikelo Serevi: I dont understand your question, kas
[10:06] Arria Perreault: I don’t expect anything for the Monastery from the CDS state
[10:06] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hold me up arias im gonna pass out.
[10:06] Kaseido Quandry: And to answer Gwyn’s question, yes I see a political appratus as parasitic on culture, not as an addition to it
[10:06] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, it’s easy to shoot arrows without taking any responsibility
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: and you have the right to be offensive. but i think that we have to agree to disagree on what ‘contributing’ means
[10:06] Arias Ahren: Her is my hand
[10:07] Arria Perreault: I have only asked for a sim that I have sponsored
[10:07] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, that’s exactly it
[10:07] Solomon Mosely: except the sim purchase
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, by “political apparatus” you mean having citizens vote for the people who manage their commonly held land, is that it?
[10:07] Kaseido Quandry: and I think that represents a cultural differnce between CDS and AA, right there
[10:07] Arria Perreault: The Monastery costs 0 L$ to CDS and brings venue.
[10:07] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, no, I mean what gets built on top of that, and what constitutes “management”
[10:08] Pip Torok: if thats so kas, which way do YOU choose?
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: what would you change then? reduce the size of the RA? 
[10:08] Arria Perreault: do you find normal that we pay all AA events, Kas?
[10:08] Arria Perreault: a concert costs between 3000 and 5000 L$
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So… if citizens aren’t allowed to vote and get elected for a body that manages the land on their behalf; and we should talk less and do more; two questions I have then: who does all the work, and how do citizens decide what to do?
[10:08] Tor Karlsvalt: The RA size is fine.
[10:08] Solomon Mosely: the sim costs 0 arria? really?
[10:08] Kaseido Quandry: ok, hang on, scrolling back, let me catch up
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: We’re pretty far of topic
[10:09] Solomon Mosely: and yes
[10:09] Arria Perreault: I have even make an addition for all concerts for 2009…
[10:09] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: they tell the dictator?
[10:09] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I think what sim managment in an SL community *should* do is provide events
[10:09] Arria Perreault: I want Kas answers
[10:09] Solomon Mosely: as a part of cds, the cds should pay for events
[10:09] Solomon Mosely: who paid for ferria?
[10:09] Arria Perreault: Kas, if we have the money
[10:09] Solomon Mosely: i know cds didnt pay for my musician who played
[10:09] Kaseido Quandry: that’s why we pay a premium in tier over standard rental rates
[10:10] Kaseido Quandry: and I am *not* saying they should have a monopoly on events
[10:10] Arria Perreault: CDS paid for others, Sol
[10:10] Arria Perreault: look the monthly reports for 2009 and you will see
[10:10] Solomon Mosely: good
[10:10] Kaseido Quandry: I do a monthly DJ party on my own property, that I pay for, to meet my neighbors and help build community
[10:10] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: we have to operate within a budget not within someones credit card limits.. but we can raise money.. ask vendors to sponsor things.. i have been offering that for ages
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn is still waiting for an answer….
[10:10] Tor Karlsvalt: I bet Rose paid for Ferria
[10:10] Kaseido Quandry: Rose did pay for Feria out of her pocket
[10:10] Arria Perreault: Kas, this is the right way, what you do
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: hmm, we are straying a bit off topic. more on the merger and less on events perhaps?
[10:10] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the wealth of the dictator/ vs. the community budget?
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because what I’m hearing is: let’s abolish electing representatives and create an ‘oligarchy’ which manages the sims
[10:11] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, then why am I paying $1000L/month extra to live here?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as this oligarchy regularly meets with the citizens and listens to what they say, we don’t need anything else.
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is that what you want?
[10:11] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t think i heard that gwyn.
[10:11] Pip Torok: imo paying for things SL out of ones own pocket is _serious_ …
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: i think some people would prefer that gwyn
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: but it’s not my ideal
[10:11] Arias Ahren: Is their need for some Constutional revisions
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So that’s called Enlightened Absolutism.
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: The trouble with an oligarchy is they don’t have to listen to anyone
[10:12] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: then they shouldnt have joined a democracy if they wanted an oligarchy
[10:12] Arria Perreault: because, we have to make a reserve for bad periods and to expand and also for some events too
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: Well, yeah cleo
[10:12] Tor Karlsvalt: I wonder if AA feels CDS is an oligarchy.
[10:12] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: whos subject do you wan tto be
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that’s the point, Cleo
[10:12] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: everybody serves somebody
[10:12] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I agree in principle, though I may disagree as to what a prudent reserve is.
[10:12] Arria Perreault: but I find that using a part of my fees for a weekly event is chocking
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor: good question.
[10:12] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: yeah well.. so let them go
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, you’re avoiding the bigger issue ))
[10:12] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: lol
[10:12] Arria Perreault: and I don’t get anaything for the Monastery
[10:13] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, then rent your land from Azure Islands – they’re cheap, and they don’t provide services beyond covenant enforcement
[10:13] Solomon Mosely: you got a damn sim arria
[10:13] Solomon Mosely: that we all paid for
[10:13] Kaseido Quandry: I moved to a *community* for precisely those things which *create and sustain* community
[10:13] Arria Perreault: I paid for it, SOl
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Sol. Arria paid for it.
[10:13] nohelia Avindar: si me dicen ustedes yo puedo buscar algun concierto con coste cero
[10:13] nohelia’s Google Translator: if I tell you I can find some concert with zero cost
[10:13] Kaseido Quandry: and I’m willing to be taxed for expenditures that support community

Permalink.

Agenda

I. Concerns of Citizens
a. Get agreements to record session.
b. floor to the citizen

II. ADMIN

a. Review this agenda. Approve any changes
b. 7-day votes

III. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)

b. 7 day vote (permanent 7 day vote)

IV. NEW ITEMS

a. Budget legislation
b. Report citizenship Commission
c. Report from Town Hall
d. Census
e. Proposed Constitutional Amendment – Campaigning
f. Vote of confidence for Jamie Palisades as new member of the SC
g. Government Communications Bill

V. Concerns of RA Members

VI. Adjournement

Setting Size of RA : postponed to a next meeting
Transcript

[9:00] Arria Perreault: I will put the agenda in the amphora
[9:01] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Carolyn Saarinen (17m)
[9:01] Kaseido Quandry whispers: hey caro!
[9:01] Arria Perreault: Mikelo, I got your card
[9:01] Carolyn Saarinen: Hello Kas
[9:01] Arria Perreault: I will update the agenda (I have forgetten your point)
[9:01] Mikelo Serevi: better late than never, right arria?
[9:01] Pip Torok: hi Caro …
[9:01] Carolyn Saarinen: hi all
[9:01] Mikelo Serevi: I meant to give it three days ago…
[9:02] Pip Torok: Arria ive been giving copies of the forums agenda for today … (sorry if that was pout-of-order)
[9:03] Arria Perreault: I am updating it with the report of the citizenship commission
[9:03] Mikelo Serevi: rap his knuckles! 😉
[9:03] Patroklus Murakami: lol @ caro
[9:04] Patroklus Murakami: of course, it’s not just *my* money….
[9:04] Kaseido Quandry: lol!
[9:05] Mikelo Serevi: for a moment, I thought maybe you two had shacked up
[9:05] Patroklus Murakami: what a lovely thought
[9:05] Carolyn Saarinen: Nah I bought two vultures instead 😉
[9:05] Arria Perreault: sorry for the delay
[9:05] Arria Perreault: the agenda is in the amphora
[9:05] Pip Torok: thanks …
[9:06] CDS Official Amphora owned by Arria Perreault gave you ‘RA 25 april 2010 – Agenda’ ( slurl.com/secondlife/Colonia%20Nova/15/165/42 ).
[9:06] Arria Perreault: First point: concerns of citizen
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: um, are we quorate yet?
[9:06] Carolyn Saarinen: blimey who’s lost a dog?
[9:06] Arria Perreault: no
[9:06] Arria Perreault: we are 5
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: not that that should stop us hearing citizens concerns
[9:07] Arria Perreault: but there is a 7-day vote
[9:07] Arias Ahren: I have a question?
[9:07] Arria Perreault: and yes, we start with citizen concerns
[9:07] Arria Perreault: 15 minutes
[9:07] Arria Perreault: please click on the recorder
[9:07] notetaker 2.0.1: You have already signed in.
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: i think arias had a question?
[9:08] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Arias, you have the floor
[9:08] Arias Ahren: People are announcing their canidacies for the RA
[9:09] Arias Ahren: Is there a central point for them to do that so that we can better determin who is running?
[9:09] Mikelo Serevi: I believe you are sitting next to her
[9:10] Arria Perreault: yes
[9:10] Pip Torok: lol
[9:10] Arias Ahren: Delia?
[9:10] Arria Perreault: Maybe Delia can tel you something
[9:10] Arias Ahren: Please.
[9:10] Kaseido Quandry: Delia might still be AFK?
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: all nominations go to delia as dean of the SC by 20 april
[9:10] Arria Perreault: 30 april
[9:11] Mikelo Serevi: d’oh
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: the sc then announces the list of candidates
[9:11] Pip Torok: Arias … one possibility might be the thread that Delia started inviting candidates
[9:11] Arias Ahren: I see. Thank you
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: sorry 30 april
[9:11] Mikelo Serevi: 😉
[9:11] Arias Ahren: And then are they posted in a particular place?
[9:11] Pip Torok: yes ..
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: on the forums, if you dare to look at them!
[9:11] Kaseido Quandry: aha, found it: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2810
[9:11] Pip Torok: (now now, Pat!:)
[9:11] Arias Ahren: I have been reading the forms
[9:12] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:13] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Lilith Ivory (19m)
[9:13] Lilith Ivory: Hi there
[9:13] Arria Perreault: maybe Delia can add soemthing later
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: HI Lilith
[9:13] Arria Perreault: Hi Lilith
[9:13] Pip Torok: hi Lilith!
[9:13] Arria Perreault: we have a quorum now
[9:13] Arria Perreault: other concerns?
[9:13] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: StuiChicanne Darkstone (19m)
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: Stui is in-world too
[9:13] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:13] Mikelo Serevi: speak of the devil
[9:14] Mikelo Serevi: 🙂
[9:14] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Good Evening
[9:14] Arria Perreault: Hi Stui
[9:14] You decline Dublin 3 – New Fibber Magees, Dublin 3 (124, 218, 31) from A group member named Kennef Riggles.
[9:14] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui
[9:14] Pip Torok: good evening, Stui …
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: did you miss me today ?
[9:14] Arria Perreault: we are in citizen concerns
[9:14] Mikelo Serevi: yes, I rather did
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m looking for concerned citizens
[9:14] Pip Torok: (evening is the UK word for Morning btw:)
[9:15] Arria Perreault: does anyone has a concern?
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it rezzed here I’d be seeing the concern
[9:15] Carolyn Saarinen: BST 17:15
[9:15] Arias Ahren: Citizenshi
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ha there’s Delia
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m concerned she seems to have fallen asleep
[9:15] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Imotali Antiesse (15m)
[9:15] Arias Ahren: Citizenship
[9:15] Lilith Ivory smiles
[9:15] Arria Perreault: ok Arias
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ah there’s Kaseido too
[9:16] Kaseido Quandry: hey Stui!
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Arias is over there
[9:16] Arria Perreault: Arias, do you have a question about citizenship?
[9:16] Arias Ahren: There have been a number concerned
[9:16] Arria Perreault: Hi Imotali
[9:17] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Arria
[9:17] Arias Ahren: It seems the definition might be in flux
[9:17] Arias Ahren: Land ownership, groups, etc.
[9:17] Pip Torok: hi Imotali
[9:17] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Pip
[9:18] Arria Perreault: Arias, we will talk about that later in the meeting and you can talk there
[9:18] Arria Perreault: I suggest we go further
[9:18] Arria Perreault: if you agree
[9:19] Arias Ahren: I missed a bit Arria
[9:19] Arria Perreault: We have an heavy program today
[9:19] Arias Ahren: Okay
[9:19] Arria Perreault: we can set some priorities
[9:19] Arria Perreault: two informations first
[9:20] Arria Perreault: Our Chancellor, Sonja Strom, cannot attend the meeting today for rl reasons
[9:21] Arria Perreault: Jamie Palisades was informed by Delia and by meabout the vote of today
[9:21] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Ulysse Alexandre (19m)
[9:22] Arria Perreault: Delia told me he intents to come, but he is currently not oline
[9:22] Pip Torok: hi Ulysse
[9:22] Ulysse Alexandre: hello Pip
[9:22] Arria Perreault: I suggest we take this point only if Jamie is there
[9:23] Mikelo Serevi: you mean the adding him to the SC point?
[9:23] Arria Perreault: Patrolkus has asked in the forum to postpone te point regarding the size of the RA
[9:23] Arria Perreault: yes, Mikelo
[9:24] Arria Perreault: do you want to follow this agenda or do you suggest changes?
[9:24] Pip Torok: i’m happy to accept …
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: happy to accept, lots to do today
[9:24] Mikelo Serevi: It seems fine to me
[9:24] Arria Perreault: (I have to apologize deeply. I have forgetten the in-world notices)
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: yes fine for me
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: i can send them arria
[9:25] Arria Perreault: yes, thank you Patroklus
[9:25] Arria Perreault: I am really sorry
[9:25] Mikelo Serevi: I’m sorry too, I thought of them and didn’t say anything :-@
[9:25] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Sorayah Sarrasine (18m)
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: but i can’t add landmarks which will annoy some ppl
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: anyone know how to in viewer 2?
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: Oh, it’s still a prob for the v2 viewer?
[9:26] Arria Perreault: yes, LM is a good idea
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: I can do it if you like
[9:26] Arria Perreault: (I can give the floor to some citizen at the end, if they have concerns)
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: got it 🙂
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[9:27] Arria Perreault: so we follow the agenda
[9:27] Arria Perreault: b. 7-day votes
[9:27] You decline Praetorium, Colonia Nova (15, 173, 42) from A group member named Patroklus Murakami.
[9:27] Arria Perreault: Timo Gufler cannot attend the meeting today and he has asked for a 7 days vote
[9:28] Arria Perreault: III. ITEMS TO BE CONTINUED FROM PRIOR RA MEETING(-)
[9:28] Arria Perreault: b. 7 day vote (permanent 7 day vote)
[9:28] You decline Praetorium, Colonia Nova (15, 173, 42) from A group member named Patroklus Murakami.
[9:29] Arria Perreault: As far as I know, there is no proposal about that question
[9:29] Arria Perreault: I have started a discussion in the forums, as we decided it
[9:29] Arria Perreault: I think we got few feedbacks
[9:30] Mikelo Serevi: We had discussed it on the past, and it was already the de facto policy, right?
[9:30] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2779
[9:30] Arria Perreault: it’s different now
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: wasn’t this stui’s idea that we have a 7-day vote every time? regardless of whether it is requested or not?
[9:31] Pip Torok: It’s possible that the present arrangement of agreeing 7-days on meeting-days is sufficient
[9:31] Arria Perreault: a RA member would have 7 days of reflexion to vote
[9:31] Arria Perreault: it was an idea of Stui
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: i agree pip. but is there a proposal for us to consider and vote on?
[9:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I did make a proposal on this one yes 🙂
[9:31] Arria Perreault: do you have the text of your proposal? or a motion?
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well my proposal was that people get automatic 7 days from an RA meeting to read the transcript if not attended or if they were present to amend their vote to suit new findings
[9:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the present system of set in stone from the RA seat….
[9:33] Arria Perreault: do you see this text as a motion?
[9:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well it just seems to lack the correct consideration due to the gravity of the decisions
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: i’m ready to vote on stui’s proposal
[9:34] Arria Perreault: do you second it?
[9:34] Pip Torok: me too
[9:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Anyone to second my proposal ?
[9:34] Kaseido Quandry: this seems a recipe for influence peddling, governmental secrecy and corruption
[9:34] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Jayme Mistwalker (18m)
[9:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or for finding more information
[9:34] Arria Perreault: we have this point since 3 meetings, Kas
[9:35] Arria Perreault: we have asked people in the forums
[9:35] Pip Torok sympathises with kas’POV
[9:35] Carolyn Saarinen: I haven’t seen much response in the forums
[9:35] Arria Perreault: it is time to take a decision
[9:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oh I have one amendment to make
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: if there is no seconder, the proposal falls
[9:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that we set a minimum attendance of meetings rate
[9:36] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Jayme Mistwalker (14m)
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to ensure people do come to RA
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: like a quorum?
[9:36] Carolyn Saarinen: This is a motion to give absent RA members an automatic 7 day vote yes?
[9:36] Arria Perreault: we have already the rule of the quorum
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: no
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so that in a term
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: members of the RA must attend a certain percentage of meetings
[9:36] Arria Perreault: I see
[9:36] Arria Perreault: equivalent to the current quorum?
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there is no point in them taking the position to never turn up
[9:36] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: But then we’d have to track it
[9:37] Lilith Ivory: our meetings have to happen here not just in the forum
[9:37] Pip Torok: no seconder yet so proposal cd still fall
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there are some who turn up every week
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and some who haven’t been seen for donkeys
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and well it seems something like a wasted vote for the people who elected the absentees
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Thankyou to Lilith for pointing out my oversight on this one 🙂
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: there is no second for the motion, in the absence of that i suggest we move on
[9:38] Lilith Ivory smiles
[9:38] Pip Torok agrees
[9:38] Mikelo Serevi agrees with pat
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: anyone to second my proposal ?
[9:38] Arria Perreault: no second
[9:39] Lilith Ivory: second
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: let’s vote
[9:39] Arria Perreault: ok, we vote
[9:39] Pip Torok: nay
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: could we have the motion clearly stated stui?
[9:39] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[9:39] Carolyn Saarinen: please
[9:39] Arria Perreault: do you want the exact text?
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ok
[9:39] Mikelo Serevi: for the record, good idea
[9:39] Arria Perreault: Stui, repeat your exact text, so we know what we vote
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: a) no need for request for 7 day vote as it is an automatic
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: b) if you attend the meeting you get 7 days to consider your stance and fact find
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: c) if you didn’t attend you get 7 days to fact find and read the transcript of the meeting and vote
[9:41] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:41] Arria Perreault: we vote now
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: d) there is a minimum attendance rate percentage for people to prevent people NEVER coming here
[9:41] Pip Torok: nay
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: nay
[9:41] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:41] Lilith Ivory: aye
[9:41] Carolyn Saarinen: abstain, I think this needs work.
[9:42] Arria Perreault: Imotali?
[9:42] Mikelo Serevi: it’s also turned into two proposals with d
[9:42] Imotali Antiesse: ok, aye
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: two proposals in one 🙂 still nay to both
[9:42] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Sorayah Sarrasine (19m)
[9:42] Pip Torok: nay to both from me as well
[9:43] Arria Perreault: Imotali?
[9:43] Imotali Antiesse: i said, aye?
[9:43] Arria Perreault: (I take the vote for both points)
[9:43] Arria Perreault: sorry
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: she voted aye
[9:43] Arria Perreault: I vote nay
[9:44] Arria Perreault: 3 aye, 4 nay, 1 abst
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it rests on Timo’s vote then I suppose
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: his 7 day
[9:44] Arria Perreault: the motion did not carry, but we have a 7-day vote
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: all absent members get 7-day
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well at least it’s hopeful 🙂
[9:45] Arria Perreault: if Timo says “aye2, it will be 4:4
[9:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what a conundrum
[9:45] Lilith Ivory: I thought only the ones get 7 days who asked Arria before?
[9:45] Arria Perreault: he asked
[9:46] Mikelo Serevi: or is the de facto that one needs to request?
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: no, all those absent get a vote if someone requests a 7-day vote
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: let’s move on
[9:46] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: we have a lot ot consider today
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: *to
[9:46] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:46] Arria Perreault: we goes further
[9:46] Arria Perreault: IV. NEW ITEMS
[9:47] Arria Perreault: a. Budget legislation
[9:48] Arria Perreault: During the last meeting, we talked about the financial issues of CDS. I have proposed I will make a proposal for a legislation
[9:48] Arria Perreault: I have published it today in the forum
[9:48] Arria Perreault: (a bit late)
[9:48] Arria Perreault: Sudane has also published an interesting report
[9:48] Carolyn Saarinen: link please
[9:48] Arria Perreault: I will give the 2 links
[9:49] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2818
[9:49] Arria Perreault: my proposal of Bill
[9:50] Arria Perreault: this proposal is mainly about our process in the RA
[9:50] Arria Perreault: but I have integrated the idea of Sudane for a Finacial Commission
[9:50] Carolyn Saarinen: This also creates ANOTHER branch of government!
[9:51] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia (13m)
[9:51] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2816
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: well, it’s more like a committee
[9:51] Pip Torok: disagree … all decisions have a financial element …
[9:51] Arria Perreault: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2816
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: hmm. not really. it’s more a finance committee to help sudane and provide more sets of eyes on the figures
[9:51] Arria Perreault: It’s not another Branch
[9:52] Arria Perreault: it is in the Executive
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: sudane has been requesting something like this for years
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who can sit on the committee
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ?
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and how can the committee ensure it serves all aspects of the budget ?
[9:53] Pip Torok: I suggest that Sudane as Treasurer invites citizens onto it
[9:53] Arria Perreault: The Executive wil organize this Commission
[9:53] Arria Perreault: 1. The Executive Branch presents to the RA a budget with all incomes and expenses not later than the 2nd month of the current term.
2. The Executive Branch presents a report about CDS finance of the former term not later than the 2nd month of the current term. The report is published on the CDS Portal.
3. The Executive Branch creates a Financial Commission. This Commission helps the Executive Team to make the budget and the final financial report of the term. The Treasurer is member ex officio of the Financial Commission.
[9:53] Arria Perreault: I could change and write:
[9:53] Arria Perreault: The Treasurer is chair of the Financial Commission
[9:54] Arria Perreault: The idea of this legislation is the following:
[9:54] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia (19m)
[9:54] Pip Torok: … because it makes sense that members have some backgroup in Finance and/or Accountancy
[9:54] Pip Torok: *ground
[9:54] Arria Perreault: The Executive informs the RA and all the CDS about the budget
[9:55] Arria Perreault: at the beginning of the term
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: i’d prefer someone apart from th Treasurer appoint the members. sudane is completely trustworthy but imagine if we had a corrupt treasurer. would you wnat them to appoint members of this committee?
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all each section expenditure should be protected by a person who will ensure that each aspect is heard after all we couldn’t realistically have a committee that lacks balance and expect a good result.
[9:55] Arria Perreault: The Executive makes also a report at the end of the Term
[9:55] Mikelo Serevi: That’s a good point, pat
[9:55] Pip Torok: agree as long as qualified ppl find their way onto it …
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: sudane is on her way. i asked her if she could come
[9:55] Arria Perreault: what do you propose, Pat?
[9:56] Arria Perreault: ok, we wait for her
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: oh, i think the chancellor could appoint the members
[9:56] Lilith Ivory: Sudane could suggest them and we vote
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think it should be appointments from more than one person
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to avoid bias
[9:56] Carolyn Saarinen: why is that better than the Treasurer doing it? it’s still one person’s decision
[9:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: shes not suposed to have any power
[9:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: oops sorry
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: checks and balances caro
[9:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i thought i was in IM
[9:57] Lilith Ivory giggles
[9:57] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Sudane Erato (19m)
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: hi sudane, we are just plotting against you 🙂
[9:57] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sudane
9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I believe that to have one person in appointments is likely to lead to the greater possibility of cronyism
[9:58] Sudane Erato: hi 🙂
[9:58] Carolyn Saarinen: I don’t see that that answers my question Pat OR your own earlier point
[9:58] Pip Torok: hi Sudane (looking sheepish!)
[9:58] Arria Perreault: Hi SUdane
[9:58] Delia Lake is assuming that the RA has checked this proposal against the Constitution and NL 5-5 Treasurer Act
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not pointing fingers but showing a sense of scope for the possibility
[9:58] Carolyn Saarinen: Of course, you could just give the money to me 😉
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: i thought we already did? 🙂
[9:59] Arria Perreault: portal.slcds.info/index.php
[9:59] Carolyn Saarinen: Suuuure
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: we are discussing arria’s proposal at the link indicated sudane
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami goes to look at the Constitution and NL 5-5
[10:00] Arria Perreault: My proposal:
[10:00] Arria Perreault: 1. The Executive Branch presents to the RA a budget with all incomes and expenses not later than the 2nd month of the current term.
2. The Executive Branch presents a report about CDS finance of the former term not later than the 2nd month of the current term. The report is published on the CDS Portal.
3. The Executive Branch creates a Financial Commission. This Commission helps the Executive Team to make the budget and the final financial report of the term. The Treasurer is member ex officio of the Financial Commission.
[10:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar – Du, Dublin (81, 103, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[10:00] Arria Perreault: We could go point to point
[10:00] Arria Perreault: any problem with point 1?
[10:01] Lilith Ivory: no
[10:01] Imotali Antiesse: 4) To maintain a financial system in a manner consistent with RL standard accounting practices, using standard double-entry bookkeeping principles.
[10:01] Arria Perreault: (it fixes the current practice
[10:01] Arria Perreault: Imotali, I note your amendment
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: imotali, i think that’s already in the Treasurer’s duties in NL 5-5
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so long as we don’t have an unbalanced committee
[10:02] Sudane Erato: sorry… for which period does #1 refer to?
[10:02] Imotali Antiesse: oh Im just copied it from there
[10:02] Arria Perreault: the current term
[10:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the emphasis should be put upon one person to argue their section
[10:03] Arria Perreault: any problem with point 2?
[10:03] Carolyn Saarinen: no
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: no problem
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: looks good
[10:03] Lilith Ivory: nope
[10:03] Arria Perreault: we go to point 3
[10:03] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Noel Claremont (19m)
[10:03] Sudane Erato: well… re #2, the executive branch publsihes a financial report every month
[10:04] Arria Perreault: Sudane, I know. But I have found your report over several month very good
[10:04] Sudane Erato: i’d be happy to explain it each month…
[10:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well one can be consolidated into the other over time
[10:04] Arria Perreault: I thin k it’s useful to have the view of the financial management of the Exectuutive for one term
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if you have the monthly ones it’s just compiling to make a bigger one
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: this would be a summary report for the entire previous term. i’d be happy to hear from you on this each month sudane. that’s a great offer and idea
[10:05] Sudane Erato: sure… thats np
[10:05] Pip Torok agrees
[10:05] Arria Perreault: I think your model was good, especially with the graphics
[10:05] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well we could do monthly, half term and full term
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: yes it was very clear sudane. thanks for putting that together
[10:06] Sudane Erato: yw 🙂
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with sudane’s agreement
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with stui
[10:06] Arria Perreault: the only question is how is appointed the commission
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: commission=finance committee
[10:06] Sudane Erato: i was happy to see that Tor volunteered
[10:06] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:07] Pip Torok: I propose that Chancellor and Treasurer jointly recommend members to the RA
[10:07] Arria Perreault: all agree?
[10:07] Lilith Ivory: yes
[10:07] Imotali Antiesse: yes
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then it gives the financial ouwell I pretty much said that so I better agree 🙂
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: oh *LOL*
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: fine by me. there’s nothing to stop the exec from doing this already but, why not?
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: half of two thoughts
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: does anyone have concerns over the potential lack of bias that could be arrived at ?
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: bad phrasing
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: isn’t lack of bias a good thing?
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: lack of bias? not sure i follow u
[10:09] Pip Torok: (lol)
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it was bad phrasing
[10:09] Sudane Erato: 🙂
[10:09] Imotali Antiesse: aha
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[10:09] Lilith Ivory smiles
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: subtract the lack *LOL*
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in other words how do you propose that people ensure that all aspects are protected
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: well this is not exactly power, it’s reporting
[10:10] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Tor Karlsvalt (18m)
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with stui again. we should look at how ppl are appointed carefully
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yes but the report influences heavily
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: we have this much money, we can spend this much
[10:10] Pip Torok: the fact of having chancellor and Treasurer agreeing and RA approving SHOULD obviate bias imho
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: right now we’re flying blind
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi agrees with pip
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so if you can get a proponent for each section
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so the committee is definitely balanced
[10:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m happy
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: my other concern though is that too complex a process is too much bureaucracy. if we have to have nominations and approvals it will be like the SC 😉
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: hmm, good point
[10:12] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Solomon Mosely (19m)
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: #3 seems to cover it adequately, imo
[10:12] Pip Torok: though i work is carried out expeditiously .. the possibility is lessened
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depends upon the aptitudes or interests of the appointed doesn’t it ?
[10:13] Arria Perreault: we can approuve them in a group
[10:13] Arria Perreault: I have update the proposal
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it wouldn’t really be worthwhile to have a group made up of people who are only interested in the politics or only interested in the events etc etc
[10:14] Arria Perreault: 3. The Chancellor and the Treasurer recommand to the RA the members of the Financial Committee. The RA approuves the members of the Committee. This Commission helps the Executive Team to make the budget and the final financial report of the term. The Treasurer is member ex officio of the Financial Committee.
[10:14] Pip Torok: sounds fine by me
[10:14] Arria Perreault: 3. The Chancellor and the Treasurer recommand to the RA the members of the Financial Committee. The RA approuves the members of the Committee. This Committee helps the Executive Team to make the budget and the final financial report of the term.
[10:14] Arria Perreault: the right version
[10:15] Mikelo Serevi: I like this version. It could result in delays, but does balance the power of choosing members
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I still want a bit of bias in there *LOL*
[10:16] Arria Perreault: either we vote it now or we publish it in the forums for a review and we vote next time
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can’t beat a bit of bias
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: i think this sounds about right. i would prefer to vote on it at our next meeting though
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: so that ppl have time to consider it
[10:16] Arria Perreault: me too
[10:16] Pip Torok: (great alliteration, Stui!:)
[10:16] Carolyn Saarinen: we aren’t designing Chanel dresses Stui 😉
[10:16] Lilith Ivory: both works for me
[10:17] Arria Perreault: I propose the following: I will publish this version on the forum and we vote it next time
[10:17] Arria Perreault: do you agree?
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: agreed
[10:17] Mikelo Serevi: ok arria
[10:17] Pip Torok: yes
[10:17] Lilith Ivory: yes
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Caro… I wonder if we’d agree on the designs more tho 🙂
[10:17] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:18] Arria Perreault: next point
[10:18] Arria Perreault: b. Report citizenship Commission
[10:18] Carolyn Saarinen: More Vionnet anyway Stui
[10:18] Carolyn Saarinen: 😉
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: Ok, we had another meeting last week, to sum up the discussions we’ve had
[10:18] Lilith Ivory: Imissed an note about the last meeting 🙁
[10:18] Arria Perreault: Mikelo, can you explane the results of the commissision, while I put your report in the amphora?
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Was there a transcript of last meeting ?
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: I’ve tried to listen to where people are at on this issue
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: Opinions seem to vary less than I would have thought, most apear to be for a one land parcel = one citizen model
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: In the case where exeptions are allowed, no one seems able to come to any ageement at all at all
[10:20] Arria Perreault: you can take the proposal in the amphory
[10:21] Mikelo Serevi: This leads me to think there should be limited exceptions, if any
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: So I made a 3-point proposal, which I guess is in the amphory now
[10:22] CDS Official Amphora owned by Arria Perreault gave you ‘citizen_definition_proposal’ ( slurl.com/secondlife/Colonia%20Nova/15/165/42 ).
[10:22] Arria Perreault: yes, it is
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: I’ll put it in chat also
[10:22] Lilith Ivory: what about the people who are citizens only due to group membership?
[10:22] Lilith Ivory: is there a grandfathering?
[10:22] Solomon Mosely raises hand
[10:23] Arria Perreault: A person can get citizenship in the following ways:
1. Become the sole owner of a parcel of land in CDS or AA
2. Be the founder/group owner of a group which owns a parcel of land in CDS or AA.
3. Perform other services for the CDS, such as building, to gain citizenship for a 6-month term. Appropriate services will be determined by the RA and/or SC.
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: i think we would need a transition plan if we were to agree this
[10:23] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: Arria beat me to it, so there it is
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: i think grandfathering for ever and a day could be unfair. but we should provide for ppl so they can get citizenship under any new rules
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: There is a bit of a discrep on this one
[10:24] Pip Torok agrees with Pat
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the citizens didn’t know about the final meeting
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: ty to mikelo for his work on putting this together though and for running the meetings
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so could not attend to chip in
[10:24] Mikelo Serevi: We could set a date for this to take effect, giving people a chance to comply
[10:24] Lilith Ivory: yes, I agree with Stui
[10:24] Delia Lake: I did not know about the final meeting as I would have been sure to attend if I had.
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and has there been a transcript foe the meeting ?
[10:24] Kaseido Quandry: me too
[10:24] Arria Perreault: I would add a 4th point: 4. The Executive maintain a list of citizen approuved by the SC at least once a term, before the election, and published on the CDS portal.
[10:24] Lilith Ivory: same here Delia
[10:24] Mikelo Serevi: I had a brainstorming meeting before, and we discussed this in the RA as well
[10:25] Lilith Ivory: also the groups should be invited to attent the meetings
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but when was the general invite sent out ?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: i think the exec is already supposed to do this once a month arria! 🙂
[10:25] Delia Lake: I attended the first meeting
[10:25] Mikelo Serevi: A few weeks ago now
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and where is the transcript ?
[10:25] Pip Torok: may I suggest 210 days before the election” to make it precise?
[10:25] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:25] Pip Torok: *”10 days etc
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the lack of transcript has choked effective feedback and debate
[10:25] Mikelo Serevi: the last meeting was a discussion of the committee, not a public meeting
[10:26] Imotali Antiesse: The first meeting we had few of us don’t agree to 2nd proposal.
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the whole committee wasn’t there
[10:26] Delia Lake: so there was only 1 public meeting?
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where was AP ?
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s rather a big issue to be dealt with in this manner
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you do realise the full implications ?
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I did rather represent some
[10:26] Mikelo Serevi: it was over three hours, that public meeting
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I have since held an independent meeting
[10:27] Lilith Ivory: I asked for an invitation to the citizenship meeting last sunday but di not get an invitation
[10:27] Arria Perreault: Stui, it’s a proposal
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the feeling was much different to your representation in the proposal I am afraid
[10:27] Arria Perreault: The group had the mission to come back with a proposal
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: it’s a proposal for discussion. so let’s discuss the proposal, rather than the process?
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I don’t believe it was given adequate airing
[10:27] Pip Torok: did your meeting have a transcript, Stui?
[10:27] Mikelo Serevi: yes, we were not charged with holding public meetings, though I did do that to get feedback
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: no but mine was not a meeting of a commission
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: we can also decide whether it needs further discussion. i think it probably does
[10:28] Arria Perreault: we have to be constructive now
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it had no RA relevance
[10:28] Lilith Ivory: it absolutely does Pat
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it was purely for the sake of discussion that has been rather choked up by the approach given to this matter by the commission
[10:28] Carolyn Saarinen: we need to put this before the citizens
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: i’m inclined to agree with you lilith. but let’s discuss the issues shall we?
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as a member of the commission I have attempted to bring it for discussion
[10:28] Lilith Ivory: sure 🙂
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in two methods
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: through the grp chat
[10:29] Delia Lake: this would be a Constitutional ammendment?
[10:29] Arria Perreault: I think this proposal has soem interesting points and they come from the public meeting
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and thru the STH
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: rather than complaining about who got invited to which meeting. we r in a meeting now, let’s discuss the points raised
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: i wonder about how point 3 would work in practice
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and further exclude the citizens from the process
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: I made it as simple as possible
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ?
[10:29] Arria Perreault: we discuss point to point now
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: Good idea, Arria, #1 seems to be widely supported
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: i can see how it might be useful. but i wonder what happens if ppl promise to do work for the cDs but then don’t deliver?
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: this proposal lacks scope
[10:30] Lilith Ivory: we have to find a propper way for group member to stay citizens
[10:30] Arria Perreault: There are 3 ways to become a citizen
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it lacks adequate time before the citizens
[10:30] Arria Perreault: 1. Become the sole owner of a parcel of land in CDS or AA
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you will result in removing citizenship from people who haven’t been able to speak about it fully
[10:30] Arria Perreault: any remark on that?
[10:30] Pip Torok: imo if the sc and/or ra do their job then 30 will work
[10:30] Arria Perreault: I think it’s the current practice
[10:30] Pip Torok: *3)
[10:31] Lilith Ivory: we would have to provide more inexpensive parcels first
[10:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and this proposal is a de facto discriminatory legislation that attacks groups by their very nature
[10:31] Carolyn Saarinen: I don’t think #1 is controversial, but 2 7 3 bear scrutiny.
[10:31] Arria Perreault: yes, Lilith, we can do that
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami agrees with caro
[10:31] Carolyn Saarinen: Blimey!
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: i know!
[10:31] Arria Perreault: 2. Be the founder/group owner of a group which owns a parcel of land in CDS or AA.
[10:31] Pip Torok disagrees profoundly with Stui
[10:31] Mikelo Serevi: Well, #3 is designed to allow for peopel who may not want to pay for land, or who aren’t able to pay
[10:32] Arria Perreault: this is new
[10:32] Delia Lake: in the amphora, Claude
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you may
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but until I see the citizens disagreeing with me
[10:32] Patroklus Murakami: presumably, 2 also means that ppl need to continue to pay tier?
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then I will hold my tongue
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not before
[10:32] Arria Perreault: it is possible that a group buy a parcel and the group owner is de facto citizen
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: a lack of disagreement tells us nothgni, stui
[10:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo if the process had been open enough
[10:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you would have gotten your disagreement
[10:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I aired disagreement
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: you don’t get to stay a citizen just by founding a group i assume/
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: ?
[10:33] Carolyn Saarinen: How many ‘owners’ can a group have and how many groups can a person join?
[10:33] Pip Torok: Arriai suggest thats the same as a citizen hving 2 or more plots
[10:33] Arria Perreault: Stui, I think we will discuss this proposal now
[10:33] Mikelo Serevi: the group would have to own land
[10:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: yet you brought this proposal before the RA anyway
[10:33] Pip Torok: *Arria, i suggest … etc
[10:33] Arria Perreault: what do you mean, Pip?
[10:34] Patroklus Murakami: stui, try to focus on the merits of the proposal itself. it’s more constructive
[10:34] Kaseido Quandry: (I own two plots, say – one in my own name and one as owenr of a group of me and my alts. Instant two votes)
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would see the merits more easily if I didn’t know the backdrop of disagreement that is being ignored
[10:34] Mikelo Serevi: I considered leaving #2 out entirely, how do people feel about this?
[10:35] Carolyn Saarinen: Kas that’s what worries me!
[10:35] Arria Perreault: I don0t think someone can have several votes, Kas 😉
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: oh no kas 🙂 i think it should be own at least one plot = one citzen = one vote = one RL person
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: well, kasiedo, currently we trust that people won’t cheat with alts, they can anyway
[10:35] Carolyn Saarinen: As alts they can Arria.
[10:35] Kaseido Quandry: that’s not what this says, Arria and Pat
[10:35] Pip Torok: Arria I was referring to your statement it is possible that a group buy a parcel and the group owner is de facto citizen” …..
[10:35] Carolyn Saarinen: And by deeding one plot to a group all ‘owners’ get a vote
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: i think it could be clearer kas, but i read it differently from you
[10:36] Pip Torok: ah ! .. sorry I misread your ststement … I withdraw it …
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: all owners could deed to groups
[10:36] Arria Perreault: ok. it was only a free transcription of the proposal
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is within their rights
[10:36] Mikelo Serevi: Well, limiting #2 to one person prevents the loophole of a group getting more votes per parcel
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that would rather make the issue somewhat null
[10:37] Arria Perreault: I think a plot can give only one vote
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: personally, i’d prefer to abolish group owned land (with safeguards for citizens who derive citizenship that way).
[10:37] Lilith Ivory: with this proposal alone in AA 17 people might loose their citizenship …
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I thought the law was by square metres ?
[10:37] Carolyn Saarinen: once one person starts giving a friend a vote by deeding land to a group it would disenfranchise those who did not.
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: group-owned land is a nightmare for understanding who is/is not a citizen
[10:37] Lilith Ivory: not to mention the groups in our old Sims
[10:37] Pip Torok: Claude, then it was ALL members of a group that cd have a vote …
[10:37] Arria Perreault: 17, Lilith?
[10:37] Lilith Ivory: yes
[10:38] Arria Perreault: can you explane this to us?
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami: how do you get that number lilith? it’s very useful to know what the impact might be
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, maybe instead of trying to abolish *one of the fundamental organizng principles of SL,* change your own rules…
[10:38] Arria Perreault: does it concern one or several groups?
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: which group is it?
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: I asked Rose how many citizens of AA are only citizens due to groupmembership and she said it would be 17
[10:38] Lilith Ivory: out of 60
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: pfft kas, that *was* our rule before the group land ownership act
[10:39] Arria Perreault: and now they are citizen?
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that’s trashing a quarter of a sims voting citizens
[10:39] Lilith Ivory: seems like it
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: well, we had better consider them before we make any changes
[10:39] Mikelo Serevi: so who are they, what group?
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you can’t realistically do that prior to the merger vote
[10:39] Lilith Ivory: I agree Pat
[10:39] Imotali Antiesse: I have 43 members with AIC holding Summer Palace.
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: i expect there will be some from the ‘old’ CDS sims in the same situation
[10:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: without losing the AA sims their population on account of a CDS wide ruling
[10:39] Lilith Ivory: I don´t have that info yet
[10:40] Arria Perreault: these 17 people pay 100 L$ a month?
[10:40] Lilith Ivory: just wanted to know about how many people we are talking here
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with all due respect Pat
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: CDS old sims
[10:40] Lilith Ivory: and I´m sure there are more in the old CDS Sims
[10:40] Arria Perreault: you are right Lilith, I prefer to talk about facts too
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aren’t potentially able to leave CDS
[10:40] Patroklus Murakami: with all due respect stui
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: nm
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the merger gives AA a little of a diifferent slant to this
[10:41] Arria Perreault: SUdane, do you know how many 100 L$ citizen we have in CDS old sims?
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you can’t cost AA citizens if it hasn’t yet chosen to remain in CDS
[10:41] Tor Karlsvalt: sudane left
[10:41] Lilith Ivory: if we go with the one group one vote rule we have to provide a way for people to vote
[10:41] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: I have to ask, is it fair to allow someone to vote based on group membership?
[10:42] Pip Torok: I would say no …
[10:42] Mikelo Serevi: My proposal is intended to address this difficult question
[10:42] Lilith Ivory: thinking about chitizenship fee or something like that
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: those are our current rules mikelo
[10:42] Arria Perreault: does the SC knows that, as they review all the list?
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have to ask how proportional the proposal is
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: but i wonder if the rules are being fairly applied
[10:42] Arria Perreault: Delia, Claude?
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: in Al Andalus
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we can’t get 13 people to agree to one point unanimously
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’d love to see how you expect a group to do the same without disharmony
[10:43] Delia Lake: Arria, may non RA make official comments here
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: i wonder on what basis members of groups in Al Andalus are claiming citizenship
[10:43] Arria Perreault: yes, you can talk
[10:43] Pip Torok: exactly, Pat
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: it seems to be different from in the old CDS sims
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: by community involvement generally pat
[10:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and pip should know that
[10:43] Delia Lake: re Citizenship. we received a list from Sudane and a list from Rose
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: perhasps delia can enlighten us
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: and what scrutiny has the SC given to those lists?
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: are you taking them at face value?
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: or checking that the CDS laws are being applied?
[10:44] Delia Lake: provisional at this point, Pat, as the list that counts is the list that is in effect when the polls open
[10:45] Arria Perreault: will this list be published?
[10:45] Delia Lake: are we researching and confirming? yes we are
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: ty delia. that’s reassuring
[10:45] Delia Lake: the list in effect would have to be the citizens in good standing as of 14 May midnight slt
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: unless we change the rules on the census today?
[10:46] Delia Lake: correct
[10:46] Pip Torok: so wd $100 tier citizens be “in good standing”?
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: It seems a small investment to get voting power for
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: i propose that we table the citizenship proposal for further discussion and move ot the next item of business
[10:47] Pip Torok: second
[10:47] Arria Perreault: vote
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:47] Pip Torok: aye
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: We have time to vote next RA, right?
[10:47] Arria Perreault: yes, we have
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:47] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:47] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[10:47] Arria Perreault: I will publish your proposal in the forum
[10:48] Delia Lake: NL 5-17 Census Scheduling Act
The number of seats in the RA shall be based upon the number of citizens as of the deadline for voting in the election that will elect that RA (per Article V) or the number of citizens as of the date the polls open in the aforementioned election, whichever is greater.
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: we do mikelo. but it will be right at election time so may well carry over to next term
[10:48] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: we will get to that after the next item i hope delia 🙂
[10:48] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[10:49] Arria Perreault: next point
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: shall i report back from teh town hall arria?
[10:49] Arria Perreault: yes, for me it’s ok
[10:50] Arria Perreault: the transcript s are publised
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: transcripts begin here:
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2801
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: i thought it was areally useful meeting
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: we had a pretty robust discussion
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: but a very honest one
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: ppl said what they thought about the merger
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: and about teh cultural misunderstandings and differences between the two communiites
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: what we hoped to get out of the merger
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: what we think we have got out of it
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: what we are happy with
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: and our disappointments
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: i thought it was valualbe for understanding each other better
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: most attendees wanted teh merger to continue
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: one or two were strongly opposed to it
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: a few more were sceptical about the benefits
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: read the transcript for more details 🙂
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: i think we should continue the discussion next time
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all
[10:52] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[10:53] Arria Perreault: d. Census
[10:53] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Solomon Mosely (15m)
[10:53] Arria Perreault: Patroklus, you have the floor again
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll be brief
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: delia posted the current election law a moment ago
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: we set the size of the RA based on our population
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: but we have two dates for checking the size!
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: the census when we work out who is eligible to vote about a month before the election
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: and the day the polls open
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: so we never know how many RA reps there will be until the polls open
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: i think this is mad
[10:55] You decline Molaskey’s Pub Bonfire Beach from A group member named Katydid Something.
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: so i suggest we fix on one date – the census date
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: this would mean the next RA will have 13 members
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: (delia will correct me if i’m wrong)
[10:55] Arria Perreault: Delia?
[10:55] Delia Lake: I believe that to be correct
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: and we will know that now, and not have to wait til the polls open
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: that’s all 🙂
[10:55] Kaseido Quandry: love it
[10:56] Delia Lake: based on 131 citizens on Apr 17
[10:56] Arria Perreault: Can we see the list?
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: by calling a citizens meeting
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: those who wish to be badgered might attend
[10:57] Delia Lake: I don’t have it inworld. it’s on a word doc right now.
[10:57] Arria Perreault: it could be published on thportal
[10:57] Arria Perreault: I can do it for you
[10:58] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia (9m)
[10:58] Arria Perreault: or Sudane can update her list (state January)
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: it would be very helpful if it could be published soon
[10:58] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Gwyneth Llewelyn (16m)
[10:59] Arria Perreault: I can do quicly if I get it
[10:59] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia (18m)
[10:59] Delia Lake: if we publish the list it will be without identifying who if any might be in arrears in payment as of that April date
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: hi gwyn
[11:00] Mikelo Serevi: Is there some mention of how these people got citizenship, or is it just a raw list?
[11:00] Arria Perreault: yes, of course. we publish only the names
[11:00] Pip Torok: hi gwyn
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi all)
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: we’re on the census bill
[11:00] Lilith Ivory: Hi Gwyn
[11:00] Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: but we seem to be discussing the voter list
[11:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar – Du, Dublin (81, 103, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[11:00] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Sudane doesnt even know though.. she doesnt track land sales
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just so you know I don’t need to be canvassed by candidates
[11:00] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: just so you know.
[11:00] Arria Perreault: Cleo, there is a tool to know each change in old CDS sims
[11:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I know what I am thinking 🙂
[11:01] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: perhaps you should ask her
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: I think sudane does know
[11:01] Delia Lake: I’m not sure what you mean by raw list Mikelo
[11:01] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i have it on a notecard
[11:01] Arria Perreault: she gets everyy update
[11:01] Patroklus Murakami: could we vote on my proposal? or at least discuss it?
[11:01] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: sonja has the notecard of her conversation with us
[11:01] Arria Perreault: yes, Pat
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: well, the definition of citizen is in flux, which complicates things
[11:01] Arria Perreault: can you give us your proposal
[11:02] Patroklus Murakami: just a moment
[11:02] Arria Perreault: ?
[11:02] Patroklus Murakami: NL 12-1 Census Scheduling Act (Revised)
NL 5-17 is revised to read: “The number of seats in the RA shall be based upon the number of citizens as of the deadline for voting in the election that will elect that RA (per Article V).”
[11:02] Mikelo Serevi: right, but the numbermight change next RA meeting
[11:03] Patroklus Murakami: i.e. we set the size of the RA when the census is taken
[11:03] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Ceasar Xigalia (13m)
[11:03] Arria Perreault: it’s rather logcal that we take the same date for RA seats and citizen entitled to vote
[11:04] Mikelo Serevi: I agree with that
[11:04] Mikelo Serevi: but the date is in the past
[11:04] Arria Perreault: it’s not a problem
[11:04] Pip Torok: a second ago is in the past, mikelo …. 😉
[11:04] Patroklus Murakami: that is not a problem for these elections mikelo
[11:04] Ceasar Xigalia gave you Accounts in CDS note to Sonja.
[11:05] Mikelo Serevi: It just seems a little odd
[11:05] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:06] Arria Perreault: I think it’s fair we have the same date for both
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: the census has to be taken in any case to determine who is eligible to vote. the census has been taken. i am proposing we use that number to determine the size of the next RA
[11:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my birthday is passed I am still 27
[11:06] Arria Perreault: it’s nice also for citizen to know for how many people we can vote
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: rather than wait a few weeks and use whichever number is larger
[11:07] Pip Torok: move to vote
[11:07] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: mazzo Solo (15m)
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: yes, let’s
[11:07] Arria Perreault: a second?
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: i think you can just call the vote on the motion arria
[11:08] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: we don’t need to vote on whether to vote!
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[11:08] Arria Perreault: we vote
[11:08] Pip Torok: aye
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:08] Mikelo Serevi: abstain
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:08] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:09] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[11:09] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: mazzo Solo (17m)
[11:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is it my turn ?
[11:09] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:09] Carolyn Saarinen: yep Stui
[11:09] Imotali Antiesse: ok, aye from me
[11:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I just like to know when it’s good to speak to be heard
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:10] Arria Perreault: before we start to vote
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: we’re in a vote. aye/nay/abstain
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: even then sometimes that’s not a good time
[11:10] Arria Perreault: in this case, you vote nayy
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I know Pat
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I do ?
[11:10] Arria Perreault: your vote, Stui
[11:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: no I vote aye
[11:11] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:11] Arria Perreault: motions carries
[11:11] Kaseido Quandry: woohoo
[11:11] StuiChicanne Darkstone: almost unanimous
[11:11] Arria Perreault: it means the next RA will have 13 seats?
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami smiles
[11:11] Mikelo Serevi: but 13 seats representing who?
[11:12] Arria Perreault: the citizen will decide
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: but who are they?
[11:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well mikelo that often doesn’t seem to matter in some RA’s
[11:12] Arria Perreault: thank you
[11:12] Arria Perreault: next point
[11:12] Delia Lake: 13 seats representing the citizens of the CDS
[11:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and often it’s the case that the RA reps don’t know who they are because they never meet them *LOL*
[11:13] Arria Perreault: e. Proposed Constitutional Amendment – Campaigning
[11:13] Lilith Ivory smiles
[11:13] Carolyn Saarinen: A place for every arse and every arse in it’s place.
[11:13] Arria Perreault: Kaseido, you have the floor
[11:13] Kaseido Quandry: thank you Arria –
[11:13] Kaseido Quandry: In reading the constitutional provision on campaigning, and talking to a range of people here, I got somewhat confused
[11:14] Kaseido Quandry: the provision as it reads seems to be a drastic restriction of rights to speak and assemble, in conjunction with the election
[11:14] Kaseido Quandry: I understand there was some history with spamming, but what we have seems to go far overboard
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: I’ve proposed an alternative that I think acknowledges the primacy of political speech around an election, while still allowing a ban on disruptive and invasive tactics
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: and can drop the current and proposed text into chat, if appropriate
[11:16] Kaseido Quandry: (done) 🙂
[11:17] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[11:17] Kaseido Quandry: I think I’ve given the floor back to Arria, but I’d like to hear from you, Pat
[11:17] Arria Perreault: any question to Kaseido?
[11:18] Arria Perreault: Patroklus
[11:18] Pip Torok raises hand
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami: i think it would help to post the proposed changes in chat
[11:18] Lilith Ivory: yes
[11:18] Kaseido Quandry: happy to- hang on
[11:18] Carolyn Saarinen: Stui’s crashed I think
[11:18] Lilith Ivory: yup
[11:18] Kaseido Quandry: current provision:
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami: as i indicated on the forums, i agree with the sentiments but not the detail
[11:18] Kaseido Quandry: Section 4 – Campaigning
Campaigning for election in CDS can be done in-world only by means of unscripted items or simple notecard givers that are placed in traditional, predetermined central CDS locations, or by discourse between two avatars directly. No spamming of any kind is allowed, including the dropping of items on avatars without permission, sending messages by Second Life group IM (other than one’s own faction group), or by shouting messages to large groups. Only two emails are allowed in a given election by any faction or representative of a faction.
[11:19] Kaseido Quandry: proposed change:
[11:19] Kaseido Quandry: Section 4 – Campaigning
The freedom of candidates and citizens to speak and assemble in conjunction with campaigning for election shall be subject only to such time, place and manner restrictions as to prevent invasions of privacy or disruptions of the peace. Unsolicited electronic communications (“spamming”) is not permitted; however, spamming shall not include signage or other displayed information, within Second Life or on the internet, which would otherwise be permissible speech outside the electoral context.
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami: my main issue is that i am clear on what ‘sending mesages by group IM’ means. the original is very clear about what is or is not allowed
[11:19] Arria Perreault: question for this proposal?
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t really know what is meant by ‘invasion of privacy’. it seems too subjective
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: so i would prefer a different amendment to kaseido’s
[11:21] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, it’s my view of constitution drafting that it doesn’t include a shopping list of specifics subject to change, but that those be done in legislation
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: change the final sentence of the current provision to ”
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: Only two group notices are allowed in a given election by any candidate standing for election.”
[11:21] Kaseido Quandry: if the CDS philosophy is different, I can support that
[11:21] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, if you mean to the CDS and/or AA groups, I’m fine with that
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: yes, that is what i mean
[11:22] Kaseido Quandry: with that specified, I’m fine with Pat’s amendment
[11:22] Delia Lake: question from the peanut gallery please. how might group announcements of candidate, or faction, informational discussions such as we have had in past election cycles fit in here?
[11:22] Patroklus Murakami: i think your proposal could work, but it would need another bill to specify what ‘invasions of privacy’ are prohibited
[11:22] Kaseido Quandry: Delia, I think this would ensure they’re legal –
[11:23] Kaseido Quandry: I understand there have been candidate forums and discussions, which would seem to be in violation of the text as it stands
[11:23] Pip Torok was going to ask Delia’s question …
[11:23] Kaseido Quandry: which is what baffled me 🙂
[11:23] Arria Perreault: please, do, Pip
[11:23] Pip Torok: my question was the same as Delias .. so i withdraw it
[11:24] Kaseido Quandry: right now the constitution says a candidate can’t speak to more than one avatar inworld at a time
[11:24] Arria Perreault: sorry
[11:24] Kaseido Quandry: which would seem to make candidate meetings, debates and informal groups illegal
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[11:24] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[11:24] Arria Perreault: we are illegal since a long time 😉
[11:24] Kaseido Quandry: I figured 😀
[11:24] Mikelo Serevi: Was the intent to limit spamming of lists of people?
[11:24] Delia Lake: so it would appear
[11:25] Pip Torok: but hustings ARE a convenient means for most citizens I wd suggest
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: just to be clear kas, i am *opposing* your suggested amendment. i propose that we make one change to the current provisions by changing the last sentence. i was surprised to see you say you supported my proposal 🙂
[11:26] Kaseido Quandry: ah, I thought you were modifying my proposal
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: no
[11:26] Kaseido Quandry: the current provision outlaws public meetings with respect to the election. That’s an interesting position for an advocate of procedural democracy to take.
[11:27] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: StuiChicanne Darkstone (3m)
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: I doubt that was ever the intent
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: well, it doesn’t really, does it? we have held public meetings at every election. no one has challenged them because that was not the intent
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: and the SC would, i am sure, not rule that election meetings were illegal
[11:27] Arria Perreault: could we add also a sentence about debates, faction meetings and candidates meeting?
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: we need to look at intent as well as drafting
[11:28] Kaseido Quandry: How do we determine “intent”? Why not have a constitution that means what it says and says what it means?
[11:28] Arria Perreault: debates, faction meetings and candidates meeting are allowed
[11:28] Solomon Mosely: well, not as the law says now
[11:28] Kaseido Quandry: by your grace, not by the law.
[11:29] Carolyn Saarinen: I would agreethat the law should say what it means!
[11:29] Tor Karlsvalt: not relative to elections
[11:29] Patroklus Murakami: our law does not forbid election meetings
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry: “Campaigning for election in CDS can be done in-world only by means of unscripted items or simple notecard givers that are placed in traditional, predetermined central CDS locations, or by discourse between two avatars directly”
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: but i oppose kas amendment because i don’t think it’s an improvement on what we have
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry: So if a candidate talks to three people, they’re violating the constitution.
[11:30] Mikelo Serevi: Lol, I see what you mean
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: aah, but what if you talk to them ‘one at a time’? 🙂
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt: oh gawd
[11:31] Kaseido Quandry: then it’s not a public forum, Pat.
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt: the others just shut down there local chat
[11:31] Carolyn Saarinen rolls her eyes
[11:31] Arria Perreault: Campaigning for election in CDS can be done in-world only by means of unscripted items or simple notecard givers that are placed in traditional, predetermined central CDS locations, or by discourse between two avatars directly and meetings
[11:31] Lilith Ivory: lol
[11:31] Lilith Ivory: can´t we just correct the text?
[11:31] Arria Perreault: I have add “and meetings”
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: kas amendment is ambigouos and unhelpful because it introduces new problems to define -invasion or privacy, disruption of the peace
[11:31] Mikelo Serevi: Or take the word ‘two’ out
[11:31] Kaseido Quandry: I thnk “in world only” is problematic
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don’t see why it has to be in only specified locations
[11:32] Kaseido Quandry: it bans use of social media
[11:32] Pip Torok: May I make a suggestion: that Pat and Kas cobble together something that gives us the freedom of debate we have enjoyed without “disruption” whatever thats defined to be ….
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that people in RL have the right to display collateral related to their electoral choice
[11:32] Kaseido Quandry: or even faction websites with election platforms
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to show support
[11:32] Arria Perreault: Campaigning for election in CDS can be done in-world only by means of unscripted items or simple notecard givers that are placed in traditional, predetermined central CDS locations, or by discourse between avatars directly
[11:32] Carolyn Saarinen drums her head lightly against the furniture
[11:32] Patroklus Murakami: eminently sensible pip
[11:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and build support
[11:32] Kaseido Quandry: I’m amenable to Pip’s suggestion
[11:32] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think we should try to draft constitutional amendments on the hoof
[11:32] Pip Torok: move to vote
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: second
[11:33] Arria Perreault: we vote
[11:33] Pip Torok: aye
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: what about the web site issue?
[11:33] Lilith Ivory: for what Arria said?
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: (we are voting in pip’s proposal, right?)
[11:33] Carolyn Saarinen: what is the motion?
[11:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what are we voting for ?
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: *on
[11:33] Arria Perreault: we vote on Pip’s proposal
[11:34] Pip Torok: (can be incorporated now youv mentioned it, mikelo)
[11:34] Mikelo Serevi: Oh, pat & kas improving this?
[11:34] Lilith Ivory: could you say it again please
[11:34] Arria Perreault: Pat and Kas work together to make a propsal
[11:34] Pip Torok: Pat and Kas cobble together something that gives us the freedom of debate we have enjoyed without “disruption” whatever thats defined to be ….
[11:34] Mikelo Serevi: then aye
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:34] Delia Lake: please if you would post in chat exactly what the proposal is
[11:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: object to the wording “cobble”
[11:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: doesn’t seem very precise
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:35] Kaseido Quandry: “hack”?
[11:35] Pip Torok: have done, Delia … is that ok, Arria?
[11:35] Arria Perreault: Pip, is it correct: Pat and Kas work together to make a proosal?
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I ask
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and this may be a controversial point
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but
[11:35] Pip Torok: amalgamate instead of cobble …..?
[11:35] Arria Perreault: wait a second, Stui
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: no, you can’t. we are in a vote. just vote stui
[11:36] Arria Perreault: I want the correct motion and the vote
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why don’t we ask what sorts of election material would be agreeable to the citizens
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Pat
[11:36] Lilith Ivory: aye for pat and Kas cobbling together something
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that I crashed
[11:36] Delia Lake: is there a “by when” attached here?
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and that I have been reading back on this point
[11:36] Mikelo Serevi: that’s what they will be doing, stui
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have not been able to ask
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so I will ask
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thanks
[11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:36] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:37] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[11:37] You decline Music Island, Sea Turtle Island (52, 11, 21) from A group member named Kate Miranda.
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: will it be by meeting with the citizens Kas ?
[11:37] Kaseido Quandry: Stui, my guiding principle is that CDS citizens should have *no less* freedom of speech and assembly wrt the election, than otherwise
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I had to skim read a bit
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: 🙂
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I like that Kas
[11:37] Tor Karlsvalt: personally i don’t mind spam. I will just mute anyone who is over the board.
[11:37] Kaseido Quandry: and I’m deeply opposed to a shopping list in the constitution, but Pat and I can sort that
[11:37] Pip Torok: Pat and Kas amalgamate together something that gives us the freedom of debate we have enjoyed without “disruption” whatever thats defined to be ….
[11:38] Arria Perreault: thank you
[11:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:38] Arria Perreault: we vote on this motion now
[11:38] Pip Torok: aye
[11:38] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:38] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:38] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:38] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:38] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[11:39] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami: he voted aye
[11:39] Carolyn Saarinen: he voted
[11:39] Arria Perreault: I vote aye too
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: stui was the first to vote
[11:39] Arria Perreault: right
[11:39] Arria Perreault: good
[11:40] Arria Perreault: I suggest we postponed the two next points
[11:40] Arria Perreault: Jamie is not here
[11:40] Arria Perreault: I will inform him
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: folks, we need to get better at this. in future, post your motion in chat before a vote.
[11:40] Arria Perreault: I agree, Pat
[11:40] Pip Torok strongly agrees
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: and members need to restrain themselves to aye/nay/abstain in a vote
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: and everyone else needs to shut up (with the greatest of respect)
[11:41] Arria Perreault: I agree to, not alwys easy to count
[11:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: charm from Pat as per usual
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: or else we end up with a muddle
[11:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and rather a lack of reactive thought to any point delivered
[11:42] Arria Perreault: ca we postpone the last point and adjourn?
[11:42] Delia Lake: i ask again, is there a “by when” attached to that proposal as it would seem to materially affect how this current election campaign that starts next Saturday can be conducted.
[11:42] Arria Perreault: points*
[11:42] Kaseido Quandry: (a simple electornic vote tabulator might help)
[11:42] Patroklus Murakami: good idea kas 🙂
[11:42] Kaseido Quandry: Delia, I see no problem with reporting back with something at the next meeting
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Kas, so long as “it” says something in chat too, for the record-keeping)
[11:42] Patroklus Murakami: me neither. we will get working on it
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good 🙂
[11:43] Delia Lake: the next meeting is 2 weeks from now and the campaigning for the next term starts in 1 week
[11:43] Kaseido Quandry: gwyn, good point – one of my students is making an SL voting app for his final project – I can talk to him about some mods, or have him meet with some of you
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: this has been a problem for a couple of issues today
[11:43] Pip Torok: please!!!
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: so, the previous rules apply until we change them
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nice idea!
[11:44] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:44] Kaseido Quandry: the demo’s phenomenal – I’d be happy to set up a meeting for show&tell
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: we should also set a time limit on votes to prevent filibustering
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: so we’ll go ahead and break them like always
[11:44] Delia Lake: then who will tell Sonja that no candidate meetings should be scheduled until this is changed?
[11:44] Pip Torok: ]lol
[11:44] Kaseido Quandry: lol, Mikelo!
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: delia, the meetings were legal before, they remain legal
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: I have no problem breaking even an accidental ban on free speech anyway
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: unless the SC, in it’s infinite wisdom, wants to rule otherwise now?
[11:45] Pip Torok: i think its emcumbant upon Pat and kas to put their skates on!! :-))
[11:45] Kaseido Quandry: Delia, nobody pressed charges before for clearly illegal meetings -let’s hope nobody gets clever in the next week, lol
[11:45] Carolyn Saarinen: I could very easily consult with the bDSM community about enforcing greater order 😉
[11:45] Kaseido Quandry: lol Caro!
[11:45] Imotali Antiesse: LRA, may I be excused to log-off now? I really must go.
[11:45] Delia Lake: that’s the point I was getting to Kass
[11:45] Delia Lake: Kas
[11:45] Kaseido Quandry: I know, Delia 🙂
[11:45] Arria Perreault: I have propose a motion to adjourn
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: second
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: caro, could that increase voter turnout?
[11:45] Kaseido Quandry laughs
[11:45] Arria Perreault: thank you Pat
[11:46] Arria Perreault: vote
[11:46] Carolyn Saarinen: With the Restrained Life viewer sure 😉
[11:46] Imotali Antiesse: Thanks.
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: aye to adjournment
[11:46] Mikelo Serevi: “We have ways of making you vote”
[11:46] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:46] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:46] Kaseido Quandry: lol!
[11:46] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[11:46] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:46] Pip Torok: aye
[11:46] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I seek to filibuster
[11:46] Arria Perreault: thank you for the meeting

Permalink.

RA Town Hall Meeting 2 May 2010: Transcript – Part 1
by mikeloserevi » Sun May 02, 2010 12:29 pm
9:02] Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to being recorded
[9:02] Patroklus Murakami: we will publish a transcript of the meeting on the CDS forums
[9:02] Sylvia Tinkel: hello all
[9:02] Lilith Ivory: Hi Silvia
[9:02] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll send a couple more IMS and then i suggest we begin
[9:02] Mikelo Serevi: hi sylvia
[9:02] Sylvia Tinkel: is this an open meeting?
[9:02] Kaseido Quandry: hi Sylvia
[9:02] Sylvia Tinkel: i’m not a citizen yet
[9:02] Patroklus Murakami: open meeting, all welcome 
[9:04] Kaseido Quandry: hey Tor!
[9:04] Lilith Ivory: hi Tor
[9:04] Ranma Tardis: Hi Sonja 
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Lilith
[9:04] Sylvia Tinkel: Ji tor
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi Kas
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: Hi all!
[9:04] Ranma Tardis: G’ Day Tor 
[9:04] Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to being recorded
[09:02] Patroklus Murakami: we will publish a transcript of the meeting on the CDS forums
[9:04] Tor Karlsvalt: same Ranma
[9:05] Patroklus Murakami: shall we begin then?
[9:05] Mikelo Serevi: sure
[9:05] Tor Karlsvalt: I think Arias is coming
[9:05] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll give a quick recap of why we are here
[9:06] Mikelo Serevi: people will probably filter in
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: and then we can all dive in
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: yes, ppl will probably arrive during as well 
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: these ‘town hall ‘ meetings were set up to be held in between the regular RA meetings
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: the idea was that we could hold these in a more informal style
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: and get more citizen input than is possible in the structured, formal RA meetings
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: so far, they’ve been pretty successful
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: we held one meeting previously to discuss the merger between AA and the CDS
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: let me find the link
[9:07] Patroklus Murakami: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2801
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: is the first page of the transcript
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: This is the second of the meetings to discuss the merger
[9:08] Lilith Ivory: hi Stui 
[9:08] Kaseido Quandry: hey Stui
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I know that Patty 
[9:08] Tor Karlsvalt: Hail King Stui
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: as many of you will know, the merger has been in place for almost a year now
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Good Evening Lil
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Good Evening Kas
[9:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Good Evening Tor
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Evening ALL 
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: and, at the one year point in July, either the AA Estate Owner or the CDS Represnativative Assembly can choose to dissolve the merger
[9:09] Arria Perreault: Hi all
[9:09] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Arria
[9:09] Lilith Ivory: Hi Arria
[9:09] Arias Ahren: Hi Arria
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: so this meeting is being held to discuss our views on the merger, whehther it should continue and so on
[9:09] Sylvia Tinkel: Hi Arria
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: that will help to inform the choices to be made
[9:09] Arria Perreault: nice crown, Stui
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: i should say that it will be the next RA which makes the decision
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Thankyou AP  It was a gift from an admiring fan 
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: elections are this month, and the ppl elected as reps will have a chance to vote on it
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’ll sit next to Patty 
[9:10] Lilith Ivory: Hi Rose 
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: so, now we have a few more here
[9:10] Rose Springvale: hello, rezzing
[9:10] Arria Perreault: Hi Rose
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: let me remind everyone to click the box in the centre
[9:11] Sylvia Tinkel: Hi rose
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: to indicate consent to be recorder
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: recorded
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: we will publish a transcript of the meeting later
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: and, with that, let’s begin 
[9:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wondered what that was on your back Patty I thought it was a table tennis bat
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: i think it’s called an uchiwa 
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: don’t be shy folks 
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can’t sit next to Patty it won’t let me
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: this is your opportunity to say what you think about the merger between AA and CDS. go ahead!
[9:13] Danton Sideways: neat people can sit under the trees?
[9:13] Danton Sideways: q
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: aww, not my fault stui. i could not sit on that bit either. it’s nothing personal 
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well at STH we talked Merger
[9:14] Ranma Tardis: well at first I wanted the union to continue, however the merger has not really happened
[9:14] Pip Torok: can i suggest that Rose talks first?
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that was Wednesday
[9:14] Rose Springvale: not here to talk 
[9:14] Pip Torok: ah
[9:14] Arias Ahren: Rose?
[9:14] Rose Springvale: yes?
[9:14] Arias Ahren: Please
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s open meeting and so everyone can speak if they want to 
[9:14] Arias Ahren: don’t keep silent
[9:14] Arria Perreault: yes, please
[9:14] Rose Springvale: i’m here to listen folks
[9:15] Ranma Tardis: the atmosphere in the forums has become so toxic
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s a matter of choice and opinion
[9:15] Arria Perreault: there are still so many open questions
[9:15] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t support the merger any more myself, partly because it seems to have annoyed so many people
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: while i would love to hear what rose has to say too, it’s not really up to us to pressure her 
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: at STH’s and talking to people we have mixed opinions
[9:15] Jayme Mistwalker: as a CDS citizen I think the merger would benefit us, but I feel like there’s hostility
[9:15] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree
[9:16] Ranma Tardis: Pat I am sure as a leader she wants to hear other peoples views and not unduly influence or pressure them
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and there is a lot of that is broken down to a basic lack of trust and knowledge on one side or the other
[9:16] Pip Torok: Could I suggest that an AA resident (with nothing in CDS) speak?
[9:16] Danton Sideways: STH = Stui’s Talking Hour
[9:16] Arria Perreault: for me, I think any merger is a good idea, but we really have to know all the consequences
[9:16] Kaseido Quandry: do we have any here?
[9:16] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t believe AA is atempting to change the democratic nature of CDS. The merger is good.
[9:16] Kaseido Quandry: Schmilson! hey!
[9:17] Arias Ahren: Ever since humans first chisled something into stone there was someone upstream shisiling that the folks downstream were full of it
[9:17] Schmilsson Nilsson: Hello! Waiting for everything to rez before sitting. 
[9:17] Mikelo Serevi: What exactly are the benefits of the merger, besides expansion?
[9:17] Pip Torok: lol Arias …
[9:17] Ranma Tardis: the cds is an electorial democracy as Rudy would say
[9:17] Tor Karlsvalt: Too much has been said in the forums about AA not being democratic or suggesting that CDS will not be dem. after a merger.
[9:17] Jayme Mistwalker: is that true?
[9:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think there is a basic belief in AA that the RA is somewhat indifferent to the concerns of AA
[9:18] Pip Torok: i’d say that the merger is culturally enriching on both sides
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or not necessarily sympathetic to the wider cultural mission of the sims
[9:18] Rose Springvale: stui?
[9:18] Rose Springvale: are you speaking for yourself or all of AA?
[9:18] Arria Perreault: I think, if we continue the merger, we have to review the AA master plan and price policy, with a review of the CDS price policy (average prim price). If we can’t act in one AA sim (in respect of the theme), it’s not a real merger
[9:18] Ranma Tardis: an electorial democracy is not a true one, it has all of the apperance of one but does not function
[9:18] Kaseido Quandry: I think Pip’s expressed the hope -and the reality, outside the political class
[9:18] Mikelo Serevi: we can exchange culture without merging
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: did AA understand what the CDS democracy was like before joining?
[9:19] Tor Karlsvalt: I think the two can coexist
[9:19] Tor Karlsvalt: it isn’t a problem for CN and NFS to be together in the same estate
[9:19] Rose Springvale: i thought this was to be a conversation about what CDS citizens wanted. if its all speculation about AA then i’ll go
[9:19] Ranma Tardis: some things do not mix well a peach and mushroom taste nice but not toughter
[9:19] Mikelo Serevi: well ranma, I think past a certain size, a direct democracy just won’t work
[9:19] Tor Karlsvalt: very different sims and covenants
[9:19] Patroklus Murakami: well, the AA citizens could tell us
[9:19] Ranma Tardis: our community is very small
[9:19] Arria Perreault: Rose, we have opinions, but also questions
[9:19] Rose Springvale: you have here only one citizen of solely AA
[9:20] Mikelo Serevi: I think what AA wants is important
[9:20] Patroklus Murakami: we could aske questions and get them answered
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I have asked a question above. this is a key question for me
[9:20] Rose Springvale: sigh
[9:20] Rose Springvale: okay
[9:20] Pip Torok: Then what i as a half-CDS man wants are 2 EO’s totally happy with whAT we eventually decide
[9:20] Rose Springvale: what do you want to know?
[9:20] Arria Perreault: it will influe my opinion on the merger
[9:20] Patroklus Murakami: how about joint citizens? do they not know their neighbours’ views?
[9:20] Rose Springvale: money?
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I think, if we continue the merger, we have to review the AA master plan and price policy, with a review of the CDS price policy (average prim price). If we can’t act in one AA sim (in respect of the theme), it’s not a real merger
[9:20] Sylvia Tinkel: Isn’t the fact that only one citizen of AA is here kind of relevant?
[9:20] Mikelo Serevi: I want to know if the AA citizens want the merger
[9:20] Rose Springvale: did you read my forum post yesterday regarding reserves?
[9:21] Rose Springvale: “clarifying misconceptions”
[9:21] Kaseido Quandry: I see at least half a dozen AA citizens here, Sylvia
[9:21] Ranma Tardis: yes it is all about the money, sighs the CDS has the highest tier rate in sl
[9:21] Sylvia Tinkel: oh, I thought Rose said only one was here
[9:21] Sylvia Tinkel: nm
[9:21] Arria Perreault: my question is: can we review Sacromonte next term?
[9:21] Rose Springvale: only one AA ONLY
[9:21] Kaseido Quandry: no, only one who isn’t a citizen of AA *only*
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: money is one issue, there are others
[9:21] Rose Springvale: the merger agreement provided that no tier or land changes would occur during the first year, so long as LL didn’t change anything.
[9:22] Tor Karlsvalt: yes, Tier might be the undemocratic aspect of CDS.
[9:22] Rose Springvale: My understanding is the Sacromonte is rented
[9:22] Ranma Tardis: I have nothing to do with the CDS by choice
[9:22] Tor Karlsvalt: It is too high.
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: What is undemocratic about tier, tor?
[9:22] Ranma Tardis: I am a member of a land owning group in AA
[9:22] Tor Karlsvalt: It keeps many new people out of CDS
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: tor, tier rates can be changed
[9:22] Arria Perreault: it was not when we have tried to work on this project
[9:22] Tor Karlsvalt: keeps the community static.
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: not having any land to sell keeps ppl out of CDS!
[9:23] Rose Springvale: on sacromonte. but you wanted to divide it up and charge different tier.
[9:23] Pip Torok agrees with Pat
[9:23] Tor Karlsvalt: there is land
[9:23] Arria Perreault: yes, exactly
[9:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Tier is a fundamental issue
[9:23] Kaseido Quandry: Tor’s absolutely right – th model makes it clear new blood isn’t wanted
[9:23] Sylvia Tinkel: it can be a good thing or a bad thing but high tier can’t really be “undemocratic”
[9:23] Ranma Tardis: Pat, the CDS has a obsence amount of reserve
[9:23] Mikelo Serevi: I thought we were talking about the merger
[9:23] Tor Karlsvalt: yes sylvia it can and is
[9:23] Arria Perreault: if the RA decide that, can we implemente this decision or not?
[9:23] Kaseido Quandry: of course it can- high rates shut out broad participation
[9:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: whoa whoa
[9:23] Rose Springvale: after the merger is final, of course. but you’ll have to evict the tenant
[9:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: two moments
[9:23] Sonja Strom: There are some parcels available right now that have very low tier.
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: back to the merger folks
[9:24] Ranma Tardis: Pat the RA can do anything they please, no checks on its power
[9:24] Sylvia Tinkel: it’s the wrong term to use
[9:24] Arria Perreault: thank you
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: we are not discussing the high tier rates just now
[9:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s becoming a bit of a free for all and it’s difficult to ascertain the direction of the conversation
[9:24] Rose Springvale: i’ll oppose it, because its not a good way to serve people. but it will be the RA decision
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: save it for another time
[9:24] Tor Karlsvalt: true, in NFS
[9:24] Arria Perreault: (we can wait a vacancy, of course)
[9:24] Ranma Tardis: that is my objection to the CDS
[9:24] Kaseido Quandry: if citizenship is tied to parcel ownership, and parcels are phenomenally expensive, what *would* you call it?
[9:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Rose is right tho
[9:24] Jayme Mistwalker: good point, kas
[9:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: people in AA don’t want large land masses split into small plots
[9:25] Rose Springvale: stui
[9:25] Rose Springvale: again, are you speaking for yourself of for AA?
[9:25] Rose Springvale: i’ve not heard that sentiment
[9:25] Arria Perreault: we can make affordable plots and first review our price polic, Kas
[9:25] Pip Torok: well ARE they expensive if its needed to pay the sim and keep an adequare reserve?
[9:25] Sylvia Tinkel: I would call that a group of very rich peopel practicing democracy
[9:25] Ranma Tardis: why not buy more sims?
[9:25] Arria Perreault: it was one of the idea concerning Saaacromonte
[9:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have related to the nature reserve
[9:25] Kaseido Quandry: Pip, look at market rates across SL
[9:25] Rose Springvale: Arria
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: we seem to be dancing around every topic but the merger at the moment
[9:26] Rose Springvale: there is land right now in a full prim sim that merely needs the cooperation of the Exec office to set for sale
[9:26] Ranma Tardis: one can be gotten cheap, people are giving them back to LL
[9:26] Rose Springvale: so why deal with sacromonte?
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: I pay 2600/mo, I wouldn’t say that’s expensive
[9:26] Arria Perreault: Sacromonte makes only one person as citizen and not for a cheap price
[9:26] Kaseido Quandry: “pay extra so we can maintain a slush fund” isn’t exactly a big marketing draw
[9:26] Pip Torok: yes Kas but look at what we offer as opposed to what they offer … its a buyers mkt …
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: can i suggest some questions to structure our discussion?
[9:26] Arria Perreault: there are 3 very cheap parcels in NFS now
[9:26] Pip Torok: please yes Pat
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: what did people hope to get out of the merger?
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: has the past year met your expectations?
[9:27] Ranma Tardis: due to the differences of the groups, I think the merger should be canceled
[9:27] Arria Perreault: I have tried to give one of them to a friend of Stui who wanted a cheap parcel
[9:27] Pip Torok: The pride of being a citizen of both without qualification
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami notes this is like herding cats 
[9:27] Sonja Strom: It seems to me like the merger has been very stressful, to my disappointment.
[9:27] Ranma Tardis: the RA will get more and more involved in the AA dictating they wants and desires
[9:27] Mikelo Serevi: politically, CDA and AA are like oil and water, imo
[9:28] Tor Karlsvalt: I think I mentioned tier only to point out that both CDS and AA have areas where democracy can be broadened.
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: We share a lot of people and were friendly before
[9:28] Patroklus Murakami: i hoped to get a revitalised community out of it. joint projects, cross-fertilisation of ideas
[9:28] Rose Springvale: ranma, are you speaking for CDS or AA now?
[9:28] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS should not fear AA
[9:28] Ranma Tardis: AA of course
[9:28] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo’s right – if we define “CDS” as “this term’s RA”
[9:28] Pip Torok: it wd be good to have a 100% AA resident to confirm that or not, Mikelo
[9:28] Tor Karlsvalt: i think there is too much of that sentiment.
[9:28] Rose Springvale: hi jamie
[9:29] Ranma Tardis: the FIC of the CDS makes money from it
[9:29] Lilith Ivory: Hi Jamie 
[9:29] Pip Torok: hi Jamie
[9:29] Kaseido Quandry: the more time I spend just with people in CDS, the more I realize “l’etat c’est moi” isn’t nearly as true as some woud like 
[9:29] Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
[9:29] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Jamie
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: i hoped that AA citizens would learn about and participate actively in the CDS representative democracy
[9:30] Pip Torok wonders just who those “some” are! … 
[9:30] Lilith Ivory: Hi Keila
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: i hoped that the current factions would expand, new ones would form and we would do some work together on issues of religious and political tolerance
[9:30] Rose Springvale: it would be helpful to me if people would talk about facts instead of theories and presumptions
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: I think there are AA citizens on RA
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: and I noticed that sevral are running for AA
[9:30] Jamie Palisades waves laggily & smiles. we ha e an FIC? damn, Gwyn & Sudane must have sent all the dough to Goldman Sachs while I wasn’t looking 
[9:30] Tor Karlsvalt: RA*
[9:30] Rose Springvale: and i don’t speek french
[9:30] Ranma Tardis: yes the CDS has a inner circle
[9:30] Rose Springvale: no
[9:30] Arria Perreault: it was a saying of Louis the 14th: I am the state
[9:31] Arria Perreault: King of France
[9:31] Rose Springvale: CDS has people who have a lot of writing on the forum
[9:31] Sylvia Tinkel whispers: every communicty has an
[9:31] Pip Torok: well Rose, I feel that more objection to the merger comes from yourself than from AA citizens … but if I am wroplease tell me
[9:31] Ranma Tardis: Neualtenberg as I knew it has been destroyed
[9:31] Rose Springvale: but i dont’ believe there is an inner circle
[9:31] Sylvia Tinkel: inner circle” in the same senxe as the CDS has one
[9:31] Mikelo Serevi: Right, and it’s an odd thing to say, since CDS is really about democracy
[9:31] Tor Karlsvalt: So I think AA citizens are beginning to take part in CDS institutions
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: what did ppl hope to get out of the merger?
[9:31] Pip Torok: *wrong please tell me
[9:31] Rose Springvale: Pip, i merely am asking cds to stand by its agreement
[9:32] Sylvia Tinkel: Neualtenburg was destroyed by Ulrika Ranma
[9:32] Ranma Tardis: first the CDS will raise tier and pay themselves
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip there is opposition to the Merger
[9:32] Ranma Tardis: no it was destroyed by the coup
[9:32] Pip Torok: ye Stui BUT WHERE FROM?
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I can confirm it but not who… it’s for those people to state their opposition
[9:32] Jamie Palisades: /
[9:32] Sylvia Tinkel: never heard of any coup
[9:32] Rose Springvale: sylvia and ranma, i really love you both, but i don’t think as non citizens you are helping our discussions right now
[9:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not for me to give them over to a badgering by witnesses of the meeting
[9:32] Patroklus Murakami: hmm. seems like so much uncertainty has been raised about whether the merger will continue or not that the CDS RA is reluctant to waste time for no outcome
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: See, I’m hearing accusations of elitism and corruption, but where to people get these ideas?
[9:33] Rose Springvale: agree mikelo
[9:33] Jamie Palisades: well, who opposed it the first time?
[9:33] Ranma Tardis: the cds is a dictatorship in the guise of a democracy, there was no way to vote them
[9:33] [color=Black]Patroklus Murakami: i agree with rose on this i’m afraid. a trip down memory lane is not helpful
[9:33] Pip Torok agrees with Mikelo
[9:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would say Mikelo they’d get it from watching certain RA meetings at times
[9:33] Tor Karlsvalt: I think I have understood that the opposition is mainly seen in in-action rather than overt action,
[9:33] Sylvia Tinkel: I must object to Ranma just sputing hateful things without any kind of support and that are not relevant to the discussion
[9:33] Tor Karlsvalt: No NP set up, no effort to help run AA etc
[9:33] Ranma Tardis: I opposed it at first because the 2 groups are so different
[9:34] Mikelo Serevi: It’s easy to shoot arrows, and planty have been shot
[9:34] Mikelo Serevi: Is it too much to ask people to fight fair?
[9:34] Pip Torok: but Ranma youre a citizen of neither atm!
[9:34] Danton Sideways: NP= non profit
[9:34] Ranma Tardis: Sylvia you were not a citizen during that time
[9:34] Sylvia Tinkel: I was in another avatar
[9:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are at times as a representative assembly very good at representing the divisions over the solidarity
[9:34] Ranma Tardis: actually I am a member of a land owning group in AA
[9:34] Tor Karlsvalt: Can we ever just learn to let water run off our backs
[9:34] Sylvia Tinkel: my point is to just shout nasty things about past history is to derail the debate
[9:34] Sonja Strom: Ranma, neither were you
[9:34] Sylvia Tinkel: whether true or not
[9:34] Arria Perreault: I was very in favour of this merger at the beginning of the term. I told it publicly as LRA in my inaugural address. Then we got agressive reactions for the 2-3 first meetings. And what we have tried to do in AA was blocked. Then I have started to have doubts. Did we really merge? The only signs we have on the merger are the financial reports. Sorry to say that, but it is the reality.
[9:35] Rose Springvale: surprised to hear that ranma
[9:35] Tor Karlsvalt: Do we ALWAYS have to address little jibs.
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: I think aggressive reactions are a mild way to put it
[9:35] Arria Perreault: yes
[9:35] Rose Springvale: can we please speak in specifics?
[9:35] Arria Perreault: especially the second meeting
[9:35] Rose Springvale: generalizations do not help clarify anything.
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: bulling is more the term I’d use
[9:35] Ranma Tardis: why I am a citizen of Caledon
[9:35] Jamie Palisades: what was blocked, Arria?
[9:35] Mikelo Serevi: bullying
[9:35] Lilith Ivory: I agree Rose
[9:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is my hope that the next RA can work together more 
[9:35] Danton Sideways: the merged RA has worked ok for a year now
[9:36] Pip Torok: I believe the real “battle” is between the angry vs the non-angry .. not CDS versus AA
[9:36] Rose Springvale: i thnk so too pip.
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: I’m here to work out positive soutions, not squabble, but it’s becoming difficult
[9:36] Arria Perreault: we have tried to start a project in Sacromonte at a time where it was empty. We have presented that as a project for both community to work together. I have personnally been very disapointed with the reaction we got.
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: So, merger, yes or no?
[9:36] Ranma Tardis: what you did not know Sylvia, I was told to shut up and I had promised myself not to be the “angry chick” pardon me
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am walking the thin line between one path and the other 
[9:37] Sylvia Tinkel: I agree with Rose that we should stay with substantive things
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: it’s felt to me over the past year like sometimes we are merged and sometimes we aren’t 
[9:37] Rose Springvale: Arria, i have explained that what RA wanted to do in Sacromonte was premature and that there is another sim for you to work on. Why do you find that disappointing?
[9:37] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree, and responces to jibs can be taken IM
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: over sacromonte, we were not mergerd
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: warned off
[9:37] Mikelo Serevi: The merger seems to have created a lot of friction
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: concrete’s good. Arria, what was blocked? Pat, the “some of RA” that you say think they don’t want to put time into AA ? specifics on that? you refer to yourself?
[9:37] Arria Perreault: I am sure today that if we were able to do this project together, the mood regarding the merger would be very diferent
[9:38] Rose Springvale: then move it to almunecar.. .which is what i’ve said since the original conversation
[9:38] Rose Springvale: Almunecar is not rented
[9:38] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:38] Arria Perreault: I put this on the agenda for the next meeting
[9:38] Arria Perreault: next sunday
[9:38] Rose Springvale: and start it after the merger is final but in the meantime, work on setting Albaycin forward
[9:38] Rose Springvale: Delia has worked on this and carried the tier for a year now
[9:38] Pip Torok: one thing I know is that it takes only 1-2 angries to make it appear there is no hope for a merger
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, rose. why did u not sort out the CDS side of the merger when you were in power?
[9:38] Rose Springvale: and it is tstill not set for sale
[9:39] Tor Karlsvalt: Yeah AP I think the problem with Sacromonte was just that the rental was probably being planned at the same time the RA was making plans.
[9:39] Arria Perreault: ok, Rose
[9:39] Rose Springvale: lol
[9:39] Rose Springvale: pat
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: you are now blaming the current RA and chancellor for inaction
[9:39] Arria Perreault: we can start now with the conception of the project by steeing a workgroup
[9:39] Ranma Tardis: am not angry with the CDS just disapointed
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: particularly on the Non-Profit
[9:39] Rose Springvale: jamie and i did our job pat.
[9:39] Rose Springvale: the non profit is set up.
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: why did u not do it when you had the chance?
[9:39] Rose Springvale: read my post on clarifying misconcetions
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: which non-profit?
[9:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well it could be said that a lot of the issues with the merger are arrived at because people don’t speak out
[9:40] Ranma Tardis: but the CDS makes a profit
[9:40] Rose Springvale: this RA has taken the position that there is no need for a non profit because CDS doesn’t want to go there, despite its agreement
[9:40] Rose Springvale: if anyone wants to see the agreement, i have it on a notecard
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: :/ pat that might take better than an iPhone connection to answer well – but we DID. that things fell apart afterwards is a good Q for current RA & govt
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: the RA has taken no position on that qn rose
[9:40] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t whink we’ve decided against a non profit, rose
[9:40] Rose Springvale: nor any steps to complet our work
[9:40] Pip Torok: Ranma … saying any sim “makes a profit” is misleading …
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: did you tell anyone what needs to be done?
[9:40] Ranma Tardis: AA is non profit, the CDS is all about profit
[9:41] Arria Perreault: Albaycin too. I will contact Delia about that
[9:41] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, profit does imply people are collecting, and we certainly aren’t
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there was the discussion about raising the profitability of the AA sims
[9:41] Rose Springvale: pat, at some point, it is the RA job to do its job
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but how can you raise profit on a non profit ?
[9:41] Tor Karlsvalt: possibly the problem was the transition at the beinnig of the term– lack of willing communication
[9:41] Pip Torok: no Ranma … CDS is abou surviving financially
[9:41] Ranma Tardis: why do we have to make more money than tier?
[9:41] Arria Perreault: it’s very important that we can influe the land management in AA
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AA has been criticised for the costs it incurs at RA
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: hmm difficult to do what ppl expect you to do if they don’t tell you what they expect
[9:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I have seen two sets of figures
[9:41] Rose Springvale: folks, lets focus
[9:41] Arria Perreault: we will respect the theme and until now CDS has made a good job in all sims
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: which ones are the correct ones ?
[9:42] Rose Springvale: money is the least of our issues
[9:42] Pip Torok: you did nt hear me Ranma … CDS is about surviving financially
[9:42] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS holds too much money.
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: e.g. on the AA voids – isn’t the right question what a TENANT CITIZEN wants to to do with it? all AA land managements has BEEN subject to CDS jurisdiction for a year now
[9:42] Tor Karlsvalt: far more than necessary
[9:42] Ranma Tardis: they take in too much money
[9:42] Ranma Tardis: they pay themselves
[9:42] Rose Springvale: then you need to work on budgets. but that is NOT the issue here
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it seems to me that anyone who read the Transcripts of the RA meetings related to budget… would be lead to believe that AA was in financial difficulty
[9:42] Mikelo Serevi: This is something that can be changed, ranma
[9:42] Pip Torok: oh dear …. Ranma!
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but I have heard to the contrary also
[9:42] Ranma Tardis: it is the issue Rose
[9:42] Sonja Strom: In what sense has AA land management been subject to CDS jurisdiction?
[9:42] Mikelo Serevi: I think the idea was to use it to expand, if I remember correctly
[9:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the truth is that there needs to be some clarity on that matter
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: we won’t know how healthy AAs finances are until a year is up
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and some qualification and testing of the figures
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: sudane has been quite clear about that
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: what ches on rose’s leg over what CDS has or hS not done w it’s power over CDS?
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: otherwise that issue can’t be put to bed
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: some of the projections give some cause for concern
[9:43] Tor Karlsvalt: I think the agreement states that it is Sonja.
[9:43] Sonja Strom: Jamie, can you give a couple of specific examples?
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: but nohting we can’t handle together
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: sure- of what?
[9:43] Ranma Tardis: there is no oversight on Sundane
[9:43] Danton Sideways: holy cow the chat is going too fast to follow
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but the conversations about budget and the procrastination over the formulation of the budget
[9:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the pointy finger that occurred at one RA meeting
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: try in on an iPhone Danton 
[9:44] Ranma Tardis: as a real civil servant everything I do is subject to aduit
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that made people think that AA wasn’t pulling it’s weight
[9:44] Rose Springvale: wait a minute
[9:44] Sonja Strom: Of AA land management having been subject to CDS jusisdiction for over a year now.
[9:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well that’s bound to rather upset the apple cart on any merger
[9:44] Rose Springvale: 1) this is not a time to pick on sudane
[9:44] Rose Springvale: we are here to talk about CDS and AA i thought
[9:44] Ranma Tardis: as a political she is not inmune
[9:44] Rose Springvale: lets stay on topic please?
[9:44] Mikelo Serevi: the merger, yes
[9:45] Ranma Tardis: the question is do we want European socialism
[9:45] Rose Springvale: CDS has had estate managers and been given all the power i have to give since the merger began
[9:45] Tor Karlsvalt: 1. The six Al Andalus sims and four CDS sims will merge as one territory on acceptance of this offer by AA’s managers; all land owning residents of AA will become CDS citizens, and land, rentals and administration of AA assets will be the responsibility of the established structures in the CDS government.
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: yes to european socialism! it’s fab 
[9:45] Rose Springvale: cds gets reports of every land transaction and has the power to make them
[9:45] Sylvia Tinkel: sighs at “european socialism”
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: ok, answering Sonja; I told rose (as AA EO) what to do with rent etc. until theend of my term… and now you could have. assuming you two are communicating
[9:45] Sonja Strom: Rose, CDS estate managers have had power on AA land?
[9:45] Pip Torok: my feelings are that when CDS have and like RA meetings and that AA have and like “Town Hall” then we’re BOTH happy
[9:46] Rose Springvale: CDS has estate managers that do, yes
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: hmmmm
[9:46] Sonja Strom: who?
[9:46] Tor Karlsvalt: Sonja, i posted that part of the merer agreement in chat
[9:46] Rose Springvale: jamie, sudane, moon, i, satir,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: ah, ok
[9:46] Rose Springvale: i think more, but i’d have to go look
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: I agree with pip there, there are more happy people than trouble- stirrers
[9:46] Mikelo Serevi: I just feel like the merger has caused more trouble than it’s worth
[9:46] Sonja Strom: Thanks for answering my question.
[9:46] Pip Torok: AH!! someone who agrees !! ))
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: but (meaningful look) the trouble stirrers are louder
[9:47] Ranma Tardis: sighs, because someone does not agree with the FIC does not make them a “troublemaker”
[9:47] Pip Torok: (arent they always!:)
[9:47] Rose Springvale: are there other specific questins?
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: wasntvthinking of you
[9:47] Pip Torok: depends on def of “does not agree”
[9:47] Ranma Tardis: what you are saying sounds to me like “shut up”
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: I have one rose
[9:47] Keila Forager: Too much trouble , so just give up…that’s very adult..
[9:48] Rose Springvale: yes Jamie?
[9:48] Jayme Mistwalker: ranma, are you here to discuss the merger?
[9:48] Jayme Mistwalker: or bash CDS?
[9:48] Mikelo Serevi: Well, no one has mentioned who the throublemakers are
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: it’s funny how ppl’s tune has changed. we were told a few weeks ago that AA was up in arms, revolting even, at the thought of the merger
[9:48] Sylvia Tinkel: If the only benefits to the merger are social and cultural and we can have those ust by living side by side but differently, why merge at all?
[9:48] Ranma Tardis: how can a for profit and non profit merge?
[9:48] Arria Perreault: Ramna, can I explave you something? In european social-democrat states, the state finance many things like culture. In USA, the main cultural expenses are on private hands. I have found strange that it is the reverse in CDS and AA. In CDS we used to have few events paid by CDS and we have events paid by citizen. In AA, the events of the 11th terms were paid by the CDS
[9:48] Rose Springvale: who told you that Pat?
[9:48] Jamie Palisades:  rose, as AA EO, how
[9:48] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Delia
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: now, when ppl speak out against it, all is sweetness and light!
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: you did rose!
[9:48] Sylvia Tinkel: hi Delia
[9:48] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, it was my understanding that AA had concerns about the merger, fears of a takeover
[9:49] Delia Lake: hi everyone. still rezzing
[9:49] Lilith Ivory: Hi Delia
[9:49] Rose Springvale: we are here to discuss CDS i thought
[9:49] Kaseido Quandry: hi Delia
[9:49] Ranma Tardis: why is everything about money, in Caledon we get toughter just for the fun of it
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: we have had months of ‘AA citizens are not happy, you must make concessions to them’
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: abolish factions
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: talk nicer
[9:49] Arria Perreault: so Ramna, the cultural policy of AA is closer to what you want to avoid and the CDS sims closer
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: pay for events
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: Rose, as AA EO .. how much direction have you received from CDS govt since last election?
[9:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it was hardly that black and white
[9:49] Rose Springvale: none
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: but now, when some say that they have no more confidence in it, volte face
[9:50] Pip Torok: Ranma … tier and events dont pay for themselves! .. 
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: pretty hard to defy them, then, eh?
[9:50] Rose Springvale: as AA EO, no one has contacted me at all
[9:50] Ranma Tardis: I am a citizen of AA by choice, to learn about other cultures
[9:50] Rose Springvale: that’s what i though
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: or even work with them?
[9:50] Rose Springvale: yep
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: what i’m hearing is that you dont like the result of the last election. seems to me that’s the real underlying issue
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: ppl are sore they lost last time
[9:50] Rose Springvale: lol
[9:50] Rose Springvale: pat
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what was represented to the RA was that issues are not quite so simple as what could be assumed from face value facts
[9:50] Mikelo Serevi: Hmm, could be, pat
[9:51] Rose Springvale: i am only one person
[9:51] Rose Springvale: i am a CDS citizen
[9:51] Keila Forager: OMG Pat, that is so childish..
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and that it refers a lot to the core mission of AA
[9:51] Pip Torok: if thats right, then those losers arent into democracy win or lose!
[9:51] Ranma Tardis: yes, I spent a year in Iraq getting shout at on a daily event, I meet a lot of nice people there though
[9:51] Sonja Strom: I have been in contact with Rose many, many times over this term.
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: Well, I’ve sensed what pat is saying myself
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I ask a question ?
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: everyone is so fond of answering
[9:51] Rose Springvale: and here to do what i can to answer your questions. if this is going to be a fistfight, i’d much rather go for a walk
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would like to ask one
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: Rather than play fair, people are playing games, causing trouble
[9:51] Rose Springvale: not true sonja
[9:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can I ask a question Patty ?
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: Some of our RA meetings have beenn amlost impossible to run
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: *** Excuse me? NONE, Rose? CDS govt hS not contacted you on AA matters AT ALL for 4 months?
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: are we having a fistfight?
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: no one stopping u stui 
[9:52] Sylvia Tinkel: this is way too unstructured for me, I don’t think we are getting anywhere
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ok
[9:52] Sonja Strom: Rose, shall I forward our email exhanges to everyone here?
[9:52] Pip Torok: whats your question, Stui?
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: it takes fighters to fight 
[9:52] Mikelo Serevi: I think people have tried to contact rose, but she has not responded
[9:52] Rose Springvale: sonja, you will find two emails
[9:52] Sonja Strom: Many more than that,
[9:52] Rose Springvale: in one, you replied to my query about renting sacromonte
[9:52] Sonja Strom: and many IMs,
[9:52] Sylvia Tinkel: 
[9:52] Ranma Tardis: I am a warrior but one that does not relish the fight
[9:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my question is: What is the general understanding of the mission of AA ?
[9:52] Mikelo Serevi: For example, I know sonja has asked for figures
[9:52] Sonja Strom: and many exchanges in the CDS forum.
[9:52] Rose Springvale: in the other you told me” i didn’t thingk you wanted a response.”
[9:53] Sonja Strom: And many in meetings, like this one.
[9:53] Mikelo Serevi: ok, so we have contacted you
[9:53] Rose Springvale: i’ve not been to a Town Hall before
[9:53] Rose Springvale: and no contact regarding the merger at all.
[9:53] Sonja Strom: In one email I said that, that’s true Rose…
[9:53] Rose Springvale: as estate owner
[9:53] Arria Perreault: everybody is invited in Town Hall
[9:53] Rose Springvale: i’ve never been told to repossess antyhing
[9:53] Jamie Palisades smiles. Rose and Sud
[9:53] Sonja Strom: because you were angry I had not given an answer you wanted, and I did not know you were asking me a question.
[9:53] Pip Torok: My answer to your question Stui is that AA is a beacon to the _principle_ of live-and-let-live in terms of differences between societies
[9:53] Jamie Palisades: a
[9:54] Sonja Strom: I thought you were making a statement.
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip gets a gold star
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and
[9:54] Tor Karlsvalt: I believe S you just leaned CDS had a responsibiltiy for AA land management.
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip as you answered
[9:54] Sonja Strom: Then when I understood it was a question, I did answer.
[9:54] Jamie Palisades: ((sorry about the bad interface))
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: can you tell me how that might be seperate from the basis of much of CDS ?
[9:54] Rose Springvale: only part, and only to tell me to come pick up volleyball in LA, during the middle of ferria
[9:54] Sonja Strom: I never even asked you to do that Rose!
[9:55] Rose Springvale: and then you took it all to the forums
[9:55] Rose Springvale: oh sonja
[9:55] Rose Springvale: do you want me to copy the exchanges?

RA Town Hall Meeting 2 May 2010: Transcript – Part 2
by mikeloserevi » Sun May 02, 2010 12:31 pm
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: so, do our problems boil down to lack of communication (no blame implied) between the outgoing and new governments in CDS?
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: i.e might complicate matters at RA level….
[9:55] Rose Springvale: this is silly
[9:55] Pip Torok: (Information Officers dont normally get away with not answering questions, Stui!:)
[9:55] Rose Springvale: not going to do this
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: Mikelo, it was my experience as chancellor that suda
[9:55] Sonja Strom: yes, please send them to everyone Rose…
[9:55] Rose Springvale: no
[9:55] Sonja Strom: I would like for everyone to see them.
[9:55] Pip Torok: it may well be that, pat!
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: ne Nd rose both needed help from govt
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: rose, sonja. i;m not sure this blame game helps us
[9:55] Ranma Tardis: I stand behind Rose
[9:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Can anyone answer that question I posed ?
[9:55] Rose Springvale: if there are issues you wish to speak to me about sonja, you need to do it directly
[9:56] Sonja Strom: Especially if now you will say that I did nothing, that I was not in contact…
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why would AA’s mission complicate matters at RA level ?
[9:56] Pip Torok: i for one wd be happy to have them from sonie
[9:56] Sonja Strom: that I told you to do anything…
[9:56] Sonja Strom: this is the opposite of the reality of the last term.
[9:56] Arria Perreault: Stui, if we were merged totally, it would be a problem
[9:56] Jamie Palisades: pat? no. new govt has a duty to deal with EOs that is irrelevant to old govt
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well let me answer
[9:56] Arria Perreault: the problem is that we don’t have all cards in our hands now
[9:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it would complicate matters on account that each law
[9:56] Arria Perreault: as RA
[9:57] Rose Springvale: what cards do you not have Arria?
[9:57] Jamie Palisades: how so, arria?
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: would have to be qualified further in AA
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: by the multicultural needs
[9:57] Ranma Tardis: sighs the power is the RA is unlimited
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: i think it is relevant jamie. it seems like ill will left over from the election inhibited communications
[9:57] Arria Perreault: land management, the list of citizen (still not published),
[9:57] Rose Springvale: yes it is!
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: ppl have not *wanted* to work with each other
[9:57] Arria Perreault: where
[9:57] Rose Springvale: the AA citizens are in the same list as the CDS citizens
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: hence some of our problems
[9:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as if it disenfranchised or infringed the rights of one group
[9:57] Rose Springvale: and sudane has all the info re land
[9:58] Rose Springvale: and SC has the current list
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then perhaps it would be against the mission statement of AA
[9:58] Pip Torok: Pat .. imho those ppl didnt want to work with anyone, CDS or AA
[9:58] Arria Perreault: The list of citizen on the portal is still from Jan 8, 2010
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there has been upset caused in the past related to the communication between both sim groups
[9:58] Ranma Tardis: the CDS needs to return to the model of phase 2
[9:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the use of sim groups to communicate events
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: *those people* can you be specific pip?
[9:58] Jamie Palisades: ra controls aa AND old CDS thru Sudaneb& Rose! what’s the prob here?
[9:58] Rose Springvale: i’m sorry i have no control, or frankly, interest in the portal.
[9:59] Arria Perreault: this one of our tool of communication
[9:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there was at one point a set of two seperate rules
[9:59] Keila Forager: Maybe the people that update the portal need to take initiative and get the list and update it
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: that’s executive branch guys
[9:59] Arria Perreault: how I do to know who is citizen and who is not?
[9:59] Pip Torok: the ones that cause unneeded upset, Pat … 9value statement , i know)
[9:59] Rose Springvale: Sudane keeps a current list of all CDS citizens
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: you get lists from your two EOs Arria
[9:59] Ranma Tardis: the CDS is more complex that the City of Hampton Virginia, a city of 100,000 people
[10:00] Keila Forager: [9:57] Rose Springvale: and SC has the current list
[10:00] Arria Perreault: they gave to the SC not to me
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: some of the emotions on display now are teh ones which make me pessimistic about the merger
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: as has been true for 5 years
[10:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar – Du, Dublin (81, 103, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you know also it’s something about the way we talk to each other too
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: This is what I mean, Pat
[10:00] Tor Karlsvalt: Rose has stated that we have the list of AA citizens
[10:00] Ranma Tardis: what is gained by the merger?
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: i agree stui
[10:00] Tor Karlsvalt: its inclucded with the CDS list
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: you have not changed your pessimism pat 
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: some people talk to only certain people
[10:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like I don’t normally talk to Patty
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: You judge a tree by it’s fruits, so waht can we say about the merger?
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but I can get agreement from Patty
[10:01] Ranma Tardis: again Pat, what is gained by the merger, what are the positive effects?
[10:01] Mikelo Serevi: I’m all for cooperation, but this just doesn’t seem to be working
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo
[10:01] Arria Perreault: I said to the last RA meeting that I was ready to publish it to the portal
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: people have to make cooperation
[10:01] Arria Perreault: I am still waiting for the list
[10:01] Pip Torok: Ranma … the proportion of civic-conscious ppl in CDS cd be far greater than in Hampton … 
[10:01] Tor Karlsvalt: Mik I think AA’s point is exactly that
[10:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it doesn’t come on it’s own
[10:01] Rose Springvale: i’m sorry, i stopped reading transcripts, and no one has asked me for anything
[10:02] Arria Perreault: and election is soon
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: but we don’t have to have the same political system to be cooperative
[10:02] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS has not been working towad implementing the merger.
[10:02] Sonja Strom: I used to be very much in favor of the merger, and I voted for it when I was in the RA, but now I am beginning to question whether or not it is good for the CDS.
[10:02] Rose Springvale: folks
[10:02] Jamie Palisades: mikelo you can say that CDs govt ignored both EOs, leaving Sudane in. a stable state & rose in a needy unresolved one 
[10:02] Rose Springvale: you have peopel here who are from the AA sims
[10:02] Ranma Tardis: we had real problems, community maintance, poverty, real crime
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: does it have to be ‘merger or bust’? can’t we think of alternatives to full merger?
[10:02] Arria Perreault: Tor, I don’t agree
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: they might suit us better
[10:02] Keila Forager: What is is that everyone thinks Rose has all info re: CDS and AA, why can’t you take the initiative to go to the correct person or group for the info you want instead of waiting for it to drop in your lap..
[10:02] Pip Torok agrees with that thought
[10:03] Arria Perreault: we have relly tried to address most of the issues AA poeple told us
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: Jamie, we hardly ignored anyone, we even invited rose to our meetings a few times
[10:03] Ranma Tardis: even now Pat you talk about 2 groups not one
[10:03] Arria Perreault: for exxample in communication
[10:03] Rose Springvale: that isn’t a proposal on the table folks. you have a merger agreement
[10:03] Tor Karlsvalt: here herer Keila
[10:03] Rose Springvale: you can choose to honor it or not
[10:03] Arria Perreault: more we have made efforts, more we got critics
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: rose, try not to think like a lawyer 
[10:03] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS has had an inactive govt relative to the merger
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: anyone want to join me on walking the line here ?
[10:03] Sylvia Tinkel: I think the only benefits to the merger are social and cultural therefore there is no need to blend the two entities on a managerial and political level
[10:03] Rose Springvale: mikelo, i never got invitations to any :meetings”
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: let’s think outside of that particular box – ‘honour or renege’
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s kinda funny to see how many times you fall off
[10:03] Arria Perreault: Tor, it’s not true
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and where you land
[10:04] Sonja Strom: Tor, what would you like the government to be more active in in relation to the merger?
[10:04] Arria Perreault: I think we were not helped on our efforts
[10:04] Pip Torok is coming round to Sylvies POV
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: We’ve tried to work with AA, but have goeetn little response from the citizens. Look at this meeting
[10:04] Rose Springvale: who is we and in what way?
[10:04] Rose Springvale: you were all givin notice rightst
[10:04] Keila Forager: There is an agreement between both side, maybe you need to go through it point by point and see if you can presently abide by it, if you can’t this meeting is pointless
[10:04] Tor Karlsvalt: We here int this very meeting AP that the exectutive did not think it had power in AA.
[10:04] Rose Springvale: you have all been invited to the AA group
[10:04] Arria Perreault: the RA had a real good will
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: who’s we? it’s executive branch not RA from which EOs require direction Mikelo ; that new territory . i
[10:04] Kaseido Quandry: Keila, wonderful way to proceed
[10:05] Arria Perreault: I had a real good will too personally and I have made a lot of things in the domain of the communication
[10:05] Mikelo Serevi: But RA and exec work together, right?
[10:05] Rose Springvale: here is my problem
[10:05] Kaseido Quandry: if the agreement on the table is *the merger agreement as written* let’s discuss that
[10:05] Sonja Strom: okay, so Jamie, you want me to give more direction to Rose?
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: new territory needs more admin attn than old is no surprise
[10:05] Rose Springvale: my problem is that this agreement has been under discussion since 2008
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: let’s go with keila’s suggestion, shall we?
[10:05] Keila Forager: Sonja , it’s your job
[10:05] Tor Karlsvalt: The agreement was written but it seems ignored
[10:05] Pip Torok: yespat
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: anyone have teh link to the merger agreement to hand?
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: Sonja, it sounded to me like co
[10:05] Arria Perreault: ok, Pat
[10:06] Sylvia Tinkel: I have RL laundry to do, which will actually be pleasant after this 
[10:06] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, good idea, keila
[10:06] Sonja Strom: alright, Rose, you had better start doing as I say, haahaaa
[10:06] Sylvia Tinkel: bye all, 
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: and stop telling each other ‘it’s your job’ which is not very constructive
[10:06] Sonja Strom: bye Sylvia
[10:06] Rose Springvale: then i guess you’ll have to actually talk to me sonja
[10:06] Pip Torok: like me, Sylvia! )
[10:06] Jamie Palisades: communication was an issue, yes
[10:06] Arria Perreault: bye Sylvia
[10:06] Sonja Strom: alright Rose, we can increase our contact
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: comms is *clearly* an issue but, it always is
[10:06] Tor Karlsvalt: But Pat when it is “your job” what should one say?
[10:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that if anyone wants the merger to work they have to stop choosing a side
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: it’s difficult to communicate with someone if you feel they are hostile tho
[10:07] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t think finger pointing will help much
[10:07] Arria Perreault: can someone copy paste the URL of the agreement?
[10:07] Rose Springvale: smiles sweetly at pat, i agree
[10:07] Rose Springvale: i have it on notecard
[10:07] Keila Forager: Thank you Tor..and I wasn’t finger pointing, stating a fact
[10:07] Rose Springvale: will put in a box
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they just have to see it as pros and cons…
[10:07] Sonja Strom: offers of help would be helpful
[10:07] Arria Perreault: ok, Rose
[10:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: (where pros isn’t prostitutes and Cons aren’t convicts)
[10:07] Object whispers: Ready!
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we are all well schooled in seeing negatives
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but not positives
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami is seraching for the merger agreement…
[10:08] Ranma Tardis: but what are the positives in the merger?
[10:08] Rose Springvale: should be able to click the box now
[10:08] Mikelo Serevi: Ideally, ranma, it was all about cooperation
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: ty rose
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in any situation you walk a line….
[10:08] Ranma Tardis: to what end?
[10:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and you tip from one way to the other
[10:08] Pip Torok: the advantages that each has from the mission-statement of the other, Ranma
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with the influences you have faced
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like I am now
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: let’s take it section by section
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I walk along here
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: 1. The six Al Andalus sims and four CDS sims will merge as one territory on acceptance of this offer by AA’s managers; all land owning residents of AA will become CDS citizens, and land, rentals and administration of AA assets will be the responsibility of the established structures in the CDS government.
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: The two communities share membership
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I could fall off and land in the water
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or I could fall off and land on land
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: one would be good
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: any comments on section 1?
[10:09] Rose Springvale: so
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the other would be bad
[10:09] Rose Springvale: we moved the ims
[10:09] Arria Perreault: If I read the 1st point, it means that you can transfer the rights to the Hippo system to Sonja or SUdane?
[10:09] Mikelo Serevi: So, my question is, how can we know that the AA citizens want to be CDS citizens?
[10:10] Arria Perreault: (and CDS original sims don’t have to migrate in this system)
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: people just have to decide that on account of whatever experiences that have had
[10:10] Keila Forager: Ask them Mikelo
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: whether they think they want the water
[10:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or the land
[10:10] Pip Torok: yes Mikelo, so we need them here to ask them … but where are they?
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: We have invited AA to these meetings
[10:10] Rose Springvale: all rentals have gone to rudeen. No change has been made in the tier collection system, but the current systems are all no tran, a new system was adopted for cds, but has not been implemented
[10:10] Keila Forager: No you don’t, send them an IM or notecard
[10:10] Rose Springvale: mikelo
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: But we can’t force them to show up
[10:11] Rose Springvale: many people, myself included, find this hour for meetings to be unreasonable
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: It makes me think they have no interest in democracy, which is ok
[10:11] Rose Springvale: if you only do what you’ve always done, you will always get the same resutls
[10:11] Pip Torok: and if they dont come, what do we infer from their absence? .. approval of the merger?
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: isnt’ it 1pm in TX?
[10:11] Rose Springvale: try moving your time and place
[10:11] Ranma Tardis: problem with the CDS is so much is done during my working hours
[10:11] Arria Perreault: can Rudeen make changes in the current Hippo system?
[10:11] Rose Springvale: it is SUNDAY noon
[10:11] Keila Forager: I live in a 90 sim estate and is freq individually contacted..
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: it is 6pm here, and many other times in other places
[10:11] Rose Springvale: Arria, i don’t konw. I know she’s been given the power to do so
[10:12] Rose Springvale: but this is one of the things i had hoped not to deal with
[10:12] Rose Springvale: i don’t script
[10:12] Arria Perreault: ok. we can ask her to make a test
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: We will never please everyone, but to have no AA citizens at all
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: They can’t all be in the wrong time zone
[10:12] Frances Ying: i am an AA citizen
[10:12] Rose Springvale: the idea was that CDS needed a new system too
[10:12] Rose Springvale: and actually approved it
[10:12] Arria Perreault: it means also the Exec can set for sale a land in AA?
[10:12] Mikelo Serevi: Well, I’m gald you came, frances. What do you think about the merger?
[10:12] Arria Perreault: Rose, we are talking about AA now
[10:13] Rose Springvale: confused
[10:13] Frances Ying: i am v new
[10:13] Pip Torok: well in Imotali’s time-zone it certainl is awkward for her ….
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: are we done with section 1?
[10:13] Arria Perreault: still one question
[10:13] Ranma Tardis: other than being a part of each others group, what do we gain?
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: shame we couldn’t link the RA up to group chat
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: yes arria?
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then it would cascade further
[10:14] Arria Perreault: for example about Sacromonte: the Exec could have decided to block the homestead for a re-development?
[10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: sorry back the US Census was at the door
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or should the RA transcripts be sent thru Group notices too
[10:14] Sonja Strom: Can the Chancellor appoint officers in the AA group?
[10:14] Mikelo Serevi: But that would be forcing people to participate, stui
[10:14] Pip Torok: what we gain is what ive said once already, Ranma …
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: no Mikelo
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they close the chat
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it goes away
[10:14] Ranma Tardis: I do not wish to be in the CDS
[10:15] Rose Springvale: folks i’m a little overwhelmed here. and i’ve got company .. it being sunday noon.
[10:15] Danton Sideways: It’s a question of HOW CDS would “take over” AA
[10:15] Rose Springvale: ah
[10:15] Rose Springvale: danton
[10:15] Ranma Tardis: I am a part of AA as a path to learning and inner peace
[10:15] Arria Perreault: if I read this well, we could
[10:15] Rose Springvale: that is the problem
[10:15] Danton Sideways: that requires dipllomacy
[10:15] Rose Springvale: CDS doesnt’ take over AA. Aa doesnt’ take over CDS
[10:15] Rose Springvale: it is a merger of equals
[10:15] Danton Sideways: which Jamie provided at one point
[10:15] Rose Springvale: i believe it was meant to be that all along
[10:16] Rose Springvale: that is what i represented to AA at least
[10:16] Danton Sideways: Item one says CDS takes over the adinistaion
[10:16] Rose Springvale: no
[10:16] Danton Sideways: *aministration of everything
[10:16] Pip Torok: good thought Danton … maybe the real fight is between the dplomatic and the nondiplomatic ….
[10:16] Arria Perreault: well the way we can decide to stop is not equal
[10:16] Ranma Tardis: why cant the 2 groups exsit side by side in cooperation?
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think AA was ready for that ‘takeover’
[10:16] Sonja Strom: I understood the merger as AA joining the CDS, that is, adopting to the institutions of the CDS.
[10:16] Rose Springvale: will be the responsibility of the established structures in the CDS government.
[10:16] Arria Perreault: here we need a 2/3 majority in the RA
[10:16] Hug & Kiss NX4 Attachment: M&P Hug & Kiss NX Animations ready.
[10:16] Rose Springvale: having responsibilty isn’t a take over
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: This is what I was thinking, ranma
[10:17] Danton Sideways: Soime people seem to think it is
[10:17] Arria Perreault: the RA is the RA of all, sorry
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: “all land owning residents of AA will become CDS citizens,”
[10:17] Ranma Tardis: AA remains a group and the CDS remains a group
[10:17] Danton Sideways: RA is not the problem, administration is
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: and thereby part of the CDS political system
[10:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I think everyone agreed that the RA was for all
[10:17] Mikelo Serevi: But rose, the RA/exec does have power over AA
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think AA ppl were really prepared for that
10:17] Pip Torok: thats not in the agreement Ranma
[10:17] Arria Perreault: I understand now we could ask the Chancellor to block Sacromonte for our project
[10:17] Rose Springvale: pat, i think you are talking about me now
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I recall something that is true for lots of CDS meetings
[10:18] Rose Springvale: Arria
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: It does seem like a takeover, though I don’t think we’re interested in taking over
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Micael said it once
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: not really rose
[10:18] Danton Sideways: I think it requires putting gloves on (not punching gloves”
[10:18] Rose Springvale: so long as land and tier doesn’t change
[10:18] Ranma Tardis: the CDS get very into the letering of the laws and not the intent
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and it has to do with trustworthy space
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the lack of true dialogue
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: lots of CDS meetings
[10:18] Sonja Strom: Stui, what more true dialogue would you like to have?
[10:18] Danton Sideways: right to trust
[10:18] Pip Torok: Mikelo … it should be a _connection_ … the real meaning of Anschluss btw
[10:18] Danton Sideways: but you have to be trust-worthy
[10:19] Arria Perreault: I am done with point 1, Pat
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are taken up with a few people having dialogic conversation
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the rest
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well is not appreciated
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami: problem is, a lot of ppl don’t trust each other
[10:19] Rose Springvale: folks, i am going to have to go. I think you need to ask yourselves if your misgiving are based on fact, or your own dislike of certain people and their positions.
[10:19] Arria Perreault: I think Sonja has asked a question about point 2
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: Ok, cu later rose
[10:19] Rose Springvale: thank you for your interest
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: people address statements to certain people
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami: bye rose, thanks for coming
[10:19] Lilith Ivory: see you Rose
[10:19] Danton Sideways: Bye Rose
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: On rent boxes, Arria, there’s some facts to clear up. Sudane had the right to run the AA rent boxes since last year. She does not WANT it because she does not WANT to change from the system SHE created, which works good for her but does not really really permit any powers ot be give to anyonen other than Sudane (through Rudeen and her secret CSDF backup owner). And through the end of my term, we considered the AA HIPPO bixes an exeperiment. Which IN MY VIEWS Sonja should have acted to bring into CDS .. but that’s HER choice. Rose has always wanted to dump the rent box job on Sudane, or SOMEone.
[10:19] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks for coming rose.
[10:19] Sonja Strom: bye Rose
[10:19] Arria Perreault: bye Rose
[10:19] Pip Torok: ok Rose I hope youve gathered my thoughts at least
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and so listen only for the responses from that person
[10:19] Sonja Strom: we will be in more contact
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and the rest is noise
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: On Sacromomnte, CDS HAS zoing control there now! But you must deal with tenant issues like the rest of CDS, not just do a socialist seizure of private property 
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s not dialogue at CDS for the most part
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s monologue
[10:20] Pip Torok: “and the rest is silence” (Hamlet)
[10:20] Arria Perreault: Ok, Jamie, we will find a way with Sudane
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: let’s try section 2, eh?
[10:20] Arria Perreault: I am fine with two systems during a transistion period
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: 2. AA’s SL groups will be maintained and administratively supported by CDS government, including the public interest lists; members of those lists may also be invited as appropriate to join other CDS groups. The exception is that SL groups used for land administration (in other words, government, not citizen groups) may be altered and consolidated.
[10:20] Ranma Tardis: the CDS is very good about silencing people who disagree with them
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: Well, Arria, with respect to the LRA, “we” MUST mean “Chancellot” under our laws
[10:21] Keila Forager: I totally agree Ranma
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t see any one beign silenced here 
[10:21] Sonja Strom: Jamie, at one point this term I contacted Rose to let her know the RA would like to work on developing Sacromonte, and Rose responded that they had no right to do it.
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: Two systems during a transition is exacly what we were doing
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: hey Gwyn
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: and must respectfully disagree with sonja and keila
[10:21] Arria Perreault: yes, Jamie
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: but soeone will have to make one of them change eventually 
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi  sorry…
[10:21] Pip Torok: oh Ranma … really! … how about a helpful positive statement!
[10:21] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t think we want to silence anyone
[10:21] Ranma Tardis: but what they are saying is being put down by unfair tatics
[10:22] Schmilsson Nilsson: Thanks for having me here. Have to run.
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: Although, some of the things you’re saying don’t seem fair to me, ranma
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: does anyone have comments on section 2 of the merger agreement?
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: Snja, if I had bene you I would have brought THAT to the RA and then the SC
[10:22] Arria Perreault: in french, I would use “on” as undertmined and not “nous” (which would include me)
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: As EO Rose works … for … you
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: but maybe you have not managed her very well?
[10:22] Ranma Tardis: well I left the CDS to join Kendra in phase III
[10:22] Pip Torok: imo its for AA people to talk about this … what can CDS people add in all honesty?
[10:23] Sonja Strom: bye Schmilsson
[10:23] Jamie Palisades: but, um, maybe your supervision of her has not gone well? And is that only her fault?
[10:23] Keila Forager: Why Pip, it’s a merger BETWEEN Cds and AA
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: why do you say that Pip?
[10:23] Sonja Strom: Jamie, I did bring that to the RA.
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: My understanding was, rose has not been cooperative
[10:23] Ranma Tardis: I support Rose
[10:23] Jamie Palisades: And you heard that from which side, Mikelo? 
[10:23] Pip Torok: then if you left the CDS Ranma, how do you think you are helping us her and now? 
[10:23] Delia Lake: in what ways, Mikelo?
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, baiting your successor is not really very fair. perhaps you could give sonja the benefit of your advice privately?
[10:23] Sonja Strom: I did not bring it to the SC… maybe I should have done that.
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my understanding is that we come to RA to mudsling
[10:24] Tor Karlsvalt: I find Rose very cooperative
[10:24] Ranma Tardis: Rose brought me into AA
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: Pat  I like Sonja but if you are the RA it is your job, not to slag employees, but to have your heda of vovt\esal with them
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and that depending on which side of the hall we sit
[10:24] Arria Perreault: Jamie, many people have tried to find ways to cooperate, not only with Rose, but more generally
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should stop discussing rose, since she is no longer here?
[10:24] Tor Karlsvalt: Obviously she wanted a different chancellor, but I am sure she would work with anyone.
[10:24] Lilith Ivory: Rose is always cooperative as long as you treat her nicely
[10:24] Delia Lake: i keep hearing that Rose has not been cooperative but I hear nothing to back that up
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we pick up the mud and hurl it across the front
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: sortr, “have your head of govt deal with them”
[10:24] Pip Torok: Stui … in that case be the person wih no mud to sling ….
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: indeed 
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pip
[10:25] Delia Lake: if we are to just throw accusations out with no back up we will not get very far
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we can look at s. 3?
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I often find I don’t mud sling
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I just ask for facts
[10:25] Tor Karlsvalt: I think CDS govt seems to have thought Rose had all the responsibility for AA management.
[10:25] Arria Perreault: on point 3, I have many questions
[10:25] Jamie Palisades smiles : who’ve you brought in, Pat? If you want to slag personalities here, you;re not immune, How about we talk about objective performance of duties, not personalities?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: 3. As a project operated in Linden Lab’s “Educational sim” class, AA sims may only be transferred to another duly qualified nonprofit organization. AA sims will be maintained in their current nonprofit status, and [transferred to a new nonprofit organization as stated in paragraph 5.
The AA sims will remain at their current rents, tier and pricing, for one year after acceptance, so long as the Linden sim tier prices applicable to them do not change. [See Section 8 also, regarding the first year of the me
[10:26] Pip Torok: yes lets look at section3
[10:26] Jamie Palisades chuckles
[10:26] Jayme Mistwalker: agrees
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: See Section 8 also, regarding the first year of the merged estates.] Public land and buildings in AA shall become the property of CDS. All AA community builds will be subject to CDS law regarding community assets and theme build protection for AA’s recreation of 13th century Arabic Granada, Spain. AA makes no representation that such structures will be available as copies for archive purposes, but will
take reasonable steps, without incurring new expense, to supply archived copies and content where such
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all I often am forced to return from being called filibuster or perhaps disruptive 
[10:26] Arria Perreault: first one: should this rl org be only under american law? if it is under american law, what are the consequences for non-US citizen?
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: where such exist. CDS agrees to take reasonable steps, without incurring new expense, to support the maintenance and operation of such buildings.
[10:26] Jamie Palisades: i didnt see anything in that section that has not worked. Did anyone else?
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two different things to discuss separately IMHO
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: CDS government and AA management each warrant that they are aware of no present nonconforming builds or covenant violations on the AA sims. All building, structure and style terms of the present AA covenant will be retained.
[10:26] Arria Perreault: for me, it’s a real concern
[10:27] Arria Perreault: I hope Jamie can give an answer
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: Pat? Typing in the whle thing is a conversation blocker, slow down please
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: to what, Arris, sorry?
[10:27] Keila Forager: SL is US, so why shouldn’t rl org be us?
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: *Arria
[10:27] Arria Perreault: should this rl org be only under american law? if it is under american law, what are the consequences for non-US citizen?
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: US law?
[10:27] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, as I understand it, that’s an issue with what Linden Lab requires to ceritfy non-profit status
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: ah
[10:27] Arria Perreault: no
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: good one! Not sure we can do it well today
[10:28] Tor Karlsvalt: how is a NP any more worrisuome than a single AV holing titlle to all of CDS and the moneuy?
[10:28] Arria Perreault: can a non US citizen be member of the board for example
[10:28] Tor Karlsvalt: money?*
[10:28] Mikelo Serevi: That is a good question, arria
[10:28] Arria Perreault: what are the consequences for members rearding rl laws
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: today all of CDS is under US law because the primary and legit owner of “Rudeen Edo” is a US citizen
[10:28] Pip Torok: Arria, imo it comes down to what law the owner of LL hardware is under (I meant jurisdiction not law)
[10:28] Tor Karlsvalt: Any Board would be safer for the group than one AV.
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: oh, as it linden labs
[10:29] Kaseido Quandry: I haven’t done a 50(c)(3) in about 15 years, so I can’t asnwer – but it’s an easily answered question
[10:29] Arria Perreault: yes, but it’s different
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: except (smile at gwyn) when Rudeen is being driven by someone in a different country, i suppose
[10:29] Tor Karlsvalt: no it isn’t
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s hear the answer then, Kas.
[10:29] Delia Lake: how is that different, Arria?
[10:29] Pip Torok: and the way I see it is that it is under State of California law …. 
[10:29] Tor Karlsvalt: We trust the current arrangement personally.
[10:30] Tor Karlsvalt: but it really isn’t safe in an objective manner.
[10:30] Arria Perreault: I think that LL provide a service and if someone has trouble with it or does something bad, the american law is applied
[10:30] Kaseido Quandry: I’ll look it up and post and answer on the forums later – but *why are you asking this question two years into the process* for gods’ sakes?!
[10:30] Pip Torok: (though of course I could be wrong)
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: .. let me ask, Arria, is the nonprofit copr really the root problem here? Earlier I was hearing Pat, Mikelo, Rose, Sonja and others mostly talk about communication problems between a branch of CDS govt and AA EO. That’s not a jurisdiction or law issue, no
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, we actually asked that question in 2005 
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we didn’t like the answer back then.
[10:30] Arria Perreault: in our case, we take a responsibility by being a member of this org
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But things change 
[10:30] Arria Perreault: especially a financial responsibility
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think the non-profit is much of an issue. just a stick to beat the current RA and chancellor with
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
[10:31] Tor Karlsvalt: Arria, Sudane could legally sell the land under our feet as we speak
[10:31] Arria Perreault: I don’t agree, Pat
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: the next RA could appoint two nominees to be teh CDS reps
[10:31] Kaseido Quandry: so, the RA voted for the merger agreement, and now the dissidents seek to overturn the result? Is that your democracy?
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: nto a difficultl decision
[10:31] Ranma Tardis: yes she can
[10:31] Delia Lake: the nonprofit status of AA is a rl legal requirement as i read it
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: no kas
[10:31] Tor Karlsvalt: A NP board would be far more stable than a single AV
[10:32] Patroklus Murakami: the previousl government made no progress on this and now blames the current one
[10:32] Jamie Palisades smiles. as of today the person or persons who control Rudeen acn take all of CDS money with a single act. That is NOT Rose who turns it all over to Rudeen. The legal recourse of CDS would be through US law (or the law of the locality of an illegal user of Rudeen) – unless we think Linden Labs actually takes enforcement actions 
[10:32] Pip Torok agrees with Tor and something we should all be aware of, while knowing Sudane is not that sort of person … anything but …
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: The trouble is, NP board members would have to reveal themselves
[10:32] Arria Perreault: and what happen if the activities of AA are considered as non compatible with this status by LL?
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a more subtle question  I’m actually chairperson of the board of a non-profit in my country; if I call Rose and Sudane tomorrow and ask them to transfer all land into the name of “my” organisation, would everybody be happy with it?  And if not, why not?
[10:32] Arria Perreault: LL can act against VDI
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: Some might see that as a privacy issue
[10:32] Arria Perreault: ?
[10:32] Ranma Tardis: sighs, it would be in small claims court
[10:32] Tor Karlsvalt: Thanks Pip, I don”t mean to suggest Sudane would.
[10:32] Jamie Palisades: Note, the prior regime (Ulrika) used its power in a very unilateral way – as I recall, you didn;t like it
[10:32] Ranma Tardis: in the USA it is about actual damages
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: let’s stick to the AA non-profit, and leave whether CDS should have one for the CDS sims to another day
[10:33] Arria Perreault: can LL act against VDI ?
[10:33] Kaseido Quandry: of course
[10:33] Mikelo Serevi: gwyn, it would have to be decided democratically, not just with a phone call 
[10:33] Arria Perreault: good to know
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Mikelo!
[10:33] Ranma Tardis: thus to bring suit for 100 or so dollars is goofy
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the point is, we should decide that democratically, not just take the agreement literally?
[10:33] Pip Torok: ??? Ranma
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and Pat, yes, we could just start with the AA sims)
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: Good question Gwyn. I’d love to see a nonUS nonprofit and I KNOW it would work for LL due to other instances. Old AA’s corp, by the way, was Canadian  But if it was you, well, as a CDS citizen I would want some conttrols around your fiduciary duty  As we have now with the AA nonprofit. As opposed to a lawless, gullible “trust me”
[10:34] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks gwyn, I was mentioning Sudane cuz I don’t think a board or NP copr is to be feared.
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!
[10:34] Patroklus Murakami: the merger agreement *only* needs a non-profit for the AA sims
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, I agree!
[10:34] Tor Karlsvalt: indeed preferable.
[10:34] Delia Lake: and, i might also as, Gwyn, would you be interested in, or willing to join the board of VDI?
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: Pat, that’s right
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is the question Arria asked before — am I allowed to?
[10:35] Arria Perreault: can a non US citizen be member?
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly.
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: I’m not sure a nonprofit is trustworthy by definition
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only member — chairperson of the board for instance
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And if so, what does that entail? Do we need to register with the US IRS?
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: a non profit is less trustworthy than any other setup why ?
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we” meaning any non-US citizen
[10:35] Ranma Tardis: my point is the CDS has to be either non profit or profit, legally we can not be both
[10:36] Delia Lake: VDI is registered with the US IRS
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Ranma, yes! I’d like to address that later)
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Delia
[10:36] Arria Perreault: and finally what are the relation between VDI and the CDS money, regarding rl taxes for example?
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: i think that is an important point ranma
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I infer that I’d have to register first with the US IRS as a person
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: there is NOTHING in the merger, fully completed, that requies a nonprofit or corporate overship for old CDS. It’s only a Q of whether you want the discount .. AND an issue for who in CDS is willing to be IDENTIFIED as working for the nonprofit. THAT is an anonimity issue – and DOES in some states bar anonymous avatars from being on the board 
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you have an idea what that entails? (I actually do)
[10:37] Ranma Tardis: yes that too is a problem
[10:37] Arria Perreault: I think all these points have to be cleared
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ironically, in my country, non-profits can have anonymous persons as members, although not as chairpersons of the board)
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: i think we begin to see why neither this goverment nor the previous one made any progress on this issue
[10:37] Arria Perreault: yes, Pat
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: But yes, besides the difficulties, I think a NP could be fine
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Pat. That was my point. I was not joking when I said that we started discussing this in 2005.
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: well, gwyn, i do not think that a US nonprofit can have only US taxpayer directors, fwiw, but the GENEREAL point about anonymity and jurisdiction is a good one. I donl;t fault Rose for using a US corp last year – we discussed it — it was fast, and better than leaving the thing in the old, Manen-affiliated corp, as he’d left.
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, laws change, of course.
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: We’ve had higher priorities though
[10:38] Delia Lake: i am on the board of VDI and under my rl name
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: so is the question citizenship or anonymity?
[10:38] Arria Perreault: for me, having a rl org for CDS (even for a part) is a real concern
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Jamie, and in any case, AA is AA
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, why?
[10:39] Ranma Tardis: in the US one has to be a real person, a real ID and a real tax number
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue, Kas, is really: how can ANY citizen participate in the non-profit if they wish — and not be excluded for, mmmh, legal or administrative issues.
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: Kas, they are both legit questions – though I agree with Pat on this much – I am not sure you have to solve this one as a gating condition for the merger being allowed to complete.
[10:39] Ranma Tardis: the IRS is on the floor beyneth me at work
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with jamie on this 
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Jamie… but that has to be a consensual point… because right now it certainly isn’t.
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well i agree too!
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And as said, if the question is: “Rose doesn’t want the ownership of the AA sims to be in VDI”, then I have mmmh…. at least 3 non-profits in stand-by, one of them in NY.
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Imotali
RA Town Hall Meeting 2 May 2010: Transcript – Part 3
by mikeloserevi » Sun May 02, 2010 12:32 pm
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All would be as “opaque” as VDI of course — no reason to trust any of them!
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: thing is, this is in the ‘too hard’ box because first of all, it’s hard and secondly, we have been led to believe for several months that the AA citizens are revolting (if you see what i mean)
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: oof, Imotali! 
[10:41] Pip Torok: hi Imotali!!!
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: sorry kas
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: lol
[10:41] anissa2008 GossipGirl: hi everyone
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, i just need to make a call to Rose 
[10:41] Sonja Strom: hi anissa
[10:41] Sonja Strom: welcome
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: over here anis
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The question is — would that be acceptable?
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: I don’t think the letter of the merger agreement is really is question
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: hi anissa
[10:42] Danton Sideways: Having rl people that you can ientify is BETTER, in my opinion
[10:42] anissa2008 GossipGirl shouts: where?
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: and, um, Gwyn, you are saying you would be OK if a US NY nonprofit is used, as long as it was yours? sorry, I missed the point maybe?
[10:42] Lilith Ivory: HI Imotali, hi anissa
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: are we really talking about who gets control here?
[10:42] Imotali Antiesse: hei Lil
[10:42] Keila Forager: Sounds like it Jamie..
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: can it be as simple as “mine mine. no, mine mine”?
[10:42] Keila Forager: 
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: 
[10:42] Mikelo Serevi: yes, the NP is rather a control issue, esp if they have ben created already
[10:42] Delia Lake: and Gwyn that you “have” a NY nonprofit? as a non US citizen?
[10:42] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t think the merger is too hard or bad. The “friendly nation” idea is my fallback postition tho
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my point is — if any citizen wishes want to be part of the non-profit, are they allowed to? (legally, administratively, practically…)
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: Soooooo Gwyn would like one from Gwyn better, and it woudl be safe and acceptabl,e but the one with Rose and Delia isn;t? enlighten me
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or will we have to say: “sorry, you can’t be part of it, it’s too complicated”
[10:43] Delia Lake is not sure how VDI is opaque either. it is Rose, me and Micael under our rl names
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: I think this is possible, there are web hosting co-ops that have international memberships
[10:43] Keila Forager: and shouldn’t the NP stand for what CDS is about..
[10:43] Danton Sideways: Sudane is opaque
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “opaque” in the sense that we don’t know if anyone else can be part of it, Delia, or what steps to take to be part of it
[10:44] Keila Forager: Not just any old NP
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, yes, well, I’m turning the tables here  and suggest looking it from the other angle.
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, honestly, i see any such corp as being excatly like Sudane – to meet CDS’ needs – in the sense that it would need to be a long term trusted “trustee” kind of thing ABOVE politics
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, that seems a little disingenuous, if you have working experience with US nonprofits
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just with two really, Kas
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: i thikn “what form do you trust” is a fake issue, and WHO will you trust as the real one 
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is tin, the other huge.
[10:44] Delia Lake: that’s not opaque, language issue maybe
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *tiny
[10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: If you ask me, the idea of a corp owning CDS is long overdue.
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: the law’s not terribly complex, and it doesn’t change much at all
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Jamie. So it’s not the form, but the people?
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: look, we’ve been told the NP is a big issue because it’s evidence that ‘CDS is not holding up its side of the bargain’
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, like Pat says
[10:45] Ranma Tardis: I admit to having no experience with non profit, I am a part of the excetive branch of the USGov
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: are we agreed that it is not such a big deal after all?
[10:45] Jamie Palisades: Well, you said Gwyn’s US NP is OK, and Rose’s isn;t 
[10:45] Keila Forager: 5. A new nonprofit organization shall be established to be the sim holder of record, using two nominees from CDS and two nominees from AA as the nominal organizers, and the CDS chancellor (by virtue of office) as a presiding director [or manager, or such other similar arrangement as applicable local law may permit, in a nonprofit company form reasonably acceptable to AA management and the CDS government. That organization shall have the purpose of reporting to, taking direction from and managing for the benefit of the CDS government.
[10:45] Delia Lake: other people could be elected to the dVDI boar
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why we’re trying to figure out, where is the “problem” really.
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: yes delia, that would be a way forward
[10:45] Danton Sideways: any people – as long as we trust them
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: provided they are US citizens
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: probably
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Danton  I would say, any people, as long as we can elect them in and out of office 
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: you don’t really have to trust them – IRS agents handle that problem for you :p
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* @ Kas
[10:46] Danton Sideways: yes appoint them or cancel
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: May I mention a specific concrete problem? No, Pat, nonUS citizens can be on a NP in the US. like Gwyn’s. But here’s an issue: SUDANE (nice person, trustworthy, also Gwyn’s bus partner) does not WANT to be on any nonprofit boards. Period.
[10:46] Ranma Tardis: beware they are mean
[10:46] Danton Sideways: as an administrative measure
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: Sudane;s hard to replace!
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: if we are agreed this is not such a problem, can we move on?
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: ok pat
[10:47] Ranma Tardis: the issue is for a complete merger the CDS has to become a non profit
[10:47] Jamie Palisades: a solution that means we have to lose Sudane as a EO would be a big pain in the rear for CDS
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: no, Ranma, that’s just wrong
[10:47] Delia Lake: Gwyn, i’m getting confused he re. you say you don’t know if non US citizens can be on boards of US nonprofits, or if there can be anonymous board members yet you said earlier that you HAVE a nonprofit in New York? what am i missing to make sense of this?
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not quite, Ranma. It just needs to create a new one for the AA sims.
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: that’s another issue ranma. can we be both?
[10:48] Danton Sideways: There could also be differential tier
[10:48] Ranma Tardis: it has nothing to do with who is a citizen of what country
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt: Ranma, CDS doesn’t have to be NP.
[10:48] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, I can’t see any reason why not
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have access to one, Delia, in the sense that it is a nonprofit that would definitely be able to accept the AA sims. but it’s not “my” non-profit at all.
[10:48] Danton Sideways: since it is lower in np AA
[10:48] Ranma Tardis: the people in the cds are making profit
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not a member in that one 
[10:48] Mikelo Serevi: I’m not getting a cut, ranma
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: there are some potential problems with having dual systems. if the RL non-profit takes direction from the CDS, should non-AA citizens get to determine who the board members are?
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: do you get a salary?
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, also, it’s a specific nonprofit that won’t have a discount from LL. They asked, and LL refused to grant them one. But that’s a secondary issue
[10:49] Jamie Palisades: damn, sound like i missed a great graft opportunity
[10:49] Kaseido Quandry: Salary is not profit, Ranma
[10:49] Jayme Mistwalker: doesnt the profit help fund entertainment?
[10:49] Delia Lake: ok. so can you enlighten us as to what “have access to one” means? i guess i could say that i have access to other nonprofits also
[10:49] Mikelo Serevi: no salary, though I get a stipend for being archivist
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: you voted yourself that money
[10:49] Pip Torok: Ranma I’ll keep saying it: the CDS is here to survive financially, not “make a profit” ….
[10:49] Jayme Mistwalker: it’s not like the RA is out buying gucci
[10:49] Mikelo Serevi: I actually didn’t want the stipend
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: the reserve is too high
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Access means just that — I can ask them on the CDS/AA behalf to accept the island transfer
[10:50] Kaseido Quandry: let’s foucs here?
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: Well, that’s different from making a profit, since there’s no distribution
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: ok kas
[10:50] Tor Karlsvalt: Good I hate Gucci
[10:50] Danton Sideways: CDS members accept higher prices and a reserve
[10:50] Danton Sideways: *old CDS
[10:50] Jamie Palisades: not sure that’s enough Gwyn. Do you TRUST them to keep CDS property without trashing it? Like the Ulrikaquake 
[10:50] Ranma Tardis: we need to do this for wanting to do this and not monatary gain
[10:51] Tor Karlsvalt: oh boy, here comes Ulrika.
[10:51] Mikelo Serevi: Yeah, I’m uncomfortable about having a simple transfer to an arbitrary corp
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the focus mostly is: how important it is for the merger to have a different NP to hold the AA sims; then: if the sims are transferred to another nonprofit, where should it be located and is *any* citizen allowed to be a member and be elected to its board? And finally: can *existing* nonprofits absorb the AA sims or do we need to create a new nonprofit for that?
[10:51] Delia Lake: and if this unknown nonprofit were willing to accept an island, or 6 of them, would it be made known what this nonprofit is and who runs it?
[10:51] Jamie Palisades: Tor, it;s relevant only in that it illustrates that a one avatar system has a heavy risk
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie: I trust them as much as I trust VDI
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Delia.
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: annd how do we get to a place where CDS as a whole could trust oe?
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: one
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: I can’t fathom the requirement for *another* nonprofit; easy enough to replace the VDI board
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: or can we?
[10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: As a newcommer, after hearing all the Ulrika stories, I am MORE comfortable with a corp than with a single AV.
[10:52] Ranma Tardis: please stop bashing my friend Ulrika or should we call her snowflake?
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: (Though Pat points out, NOT needed to resolve this term)
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas: yes. I wonder if that’s an alternative suggestion that would please everyone.
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: and, as we don’t need to resolve this term, i suggest we move on
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: and if the problem is people wanting to be on the board while remaining anonymous, that *is* a problem under US law
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: these ideas need quite a bit of discussion
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll paste s.4 in three parts
[10:53] Ranma Tardis: will not float my friend Pat
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: That’s good point, kas
[10:53] Kaseido Quandry: I can see how it could be done, but it’d be fairly expensive
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might be able to do so by proxy, Kas, but then it raises the next issue — would be allow citizens to vote by proxy?
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: apologies to anyone seeing lots of text fly by
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: And this is a practical point for transfer to another NP
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly
[10:53] anissa2008 GossipGirl: apology accepted:p
[10:53] Danton Sideways: My head spins
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: 4. The CDS RA will be increased by a number equal to the higher of
* (a) two, or
* (b) the number of additional members that would be added to the RA under CDS law by reason of the additional number of citizens added under Para 1 above.
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe anissa
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: In calculating that number, (a) each new CDS citizen from AA will be counted, plus (b) any “converting dual citizens.” A “converting dual citizen” is a current CDS citizen who wishes to designate AA’s sims as their primary residence within CDS; who does so by informing the CDS chancellor in writing within a reasonably set deadline; and who does not currently serve on the CDS RA.
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: The additional vacant RA positions will be filled by a process designated by AA management, consistent with AA law, from among persons who are (a) new CDS citizens from AA will be counted and (b) any “converting dual citizens.” The newly selected RA members shall serve either (a)] the remainder of the current RA term [or (b), if they are selected less than one month prior to the closing date for RA candidacy in the next RA general election, for the remainder of the current term plus the next term.
[10:54] Kaseido Quandry: gwyn, that could be done in corporate bylaws – I don’t see much problem
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: no probleme with any of this i assume?
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes)
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think there’s a problem with 4, no 
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: nope
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: pat, seems to me that all of THAT one has worked out or become moot OK
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: okay, s5
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We grumbled a bit at the beginning of the last term, but we pretty much accepted everything
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: 5. A new nonprofit organization shall be established to be the sim holder of record, using two nominees from CDS and two nominees from AA as the nominal organizers, and the CDS chancellor (by virtue of office) as a presiding director [or manager, or such other similar arrangement as applicable local law may permit, in a nonprofit company form reasonably acceptable to AA management and the CDS government. That organization shall have the purpose of reporting to, taking direction from and managing for the ben
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: or the benefit of the CDS government.
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: Patroklus can you make a notecard and send it to us?
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: The estate owner for the AA Sims for the first year will be nominated by AA, to serve until the eighth calendar day after the one year anniversary of the actual sim relocation, and afterwards by the usual CDS government methods. The AA EO must (a) act as an officer or agent of the new nonprofit entity; (b) agree to report to and take direction from the CDS government under the same terms as the current CDS EO, subject to the terms explicitly stated in this offer;
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: maybe we can read it at ease then
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: and (c) agree to cooperate with the affiliation or merger of the new nonprofit entity, with a later new CDS nonprofit organization, if at a later time the CDS by legislation elects to subject the ownership of its other CDS sims to control by a nonprofit organizations.
[10:55] Kaseido Quandry: arissa, the meger agreement is in the blue box
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: in the blue box arissa 
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the notecard is on the light blue cube in front of Sonja, anissa)
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: anissa, it’s all in the posted RA minutes etc
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: oh okay thanks
[10:55] Frances Ying: i have to go, bye everyone
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: thanks for coming, Frances!
[10:56] Object owned by Rose Springvale gave you ‘final merger agt’ ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Locus%20Amoenus/115/163/23 ).
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: same issue as s.3 yes?
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: bye frances 
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, here we have an *additional* problem. What happens if the Chancellor is not allowed/too complicated legally or administravely to be part of the board? 
[10:56] Tor Karlsvalt: bye frances
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does that mean that a Chancellor that knows beforehand that they cannot be part of the board will not be allowed to run as a candidate?
[10:56] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn: then we have the wrong legal structure 
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha 
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, *tell me* these questions weren’t raised and discussed when this thing was originally negotiated!
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: hey Solomon!
[10:57] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sol
[10:57] Jamie Palisades: which you yourself point out is not the case, my lil portugues buddy who runs US nonprofits
[10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: What prevents the Chancellor from being on the board?
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: kas, there were some, ahem, issues around discussing anything when this was passed
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue is that *any* citizen should be able to run for Chancellor if they wish. This clause of the agreement would just give some citizens that right.
[10:57] Solomon Mosely waves, settling in
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: hi all 
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: oh, on jamie’s alp i see 
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: Yeah, Pat claims that the evil nonCDSF RA and chancellor muzzles him  they must have been pretty powerful folks
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I don’t *run* them lol — I’m just a member!)
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: like the chancellor would be, gwyn 
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor: legal issues, for instance.
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine that we have a Cuban or Chinese Chancellor 
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: … they might not be allowed to be part of the board of the NP
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so they couldn’t run for Chancellor
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: this got rammed through the RA with v little discussion. when qns were raised, we were told they were ‘offensive’. it inhibited thorough discussion
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. thus limiting “running for Chancellor” as a privilege of some “selected few”
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: Drop the FUD gwyn  can we agree that any leglal structure we use must accomodate any CDS-legal chancellor candidate, who must be able to sit on or place a rep on that board? Is say “rep” in case anonymity is an issue
[10:59] Keila Forager: But somehow it still got included as part of the agreement that past
[10:59] anissa2008 GossipGirl: that’s not really democratic, no offense
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: that’s true gwyn but… this is the agreement that RA made 
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas.
[10:59] Ranma Tardis: which can be broken in July
[11:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar – Du, Dublin (81, 103, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[11:00] Jamie Palisades: as of today CDS can change the law and put anyone it wants on that silly VDI board, or move AA to a DIFFERENT board after June, no? Assuming you silly peoiple don;t destroy the merger before then
[11:00] Tor Karlsvalt: Isn’t the board really going to be passive?
[11:00] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, yes
[11:01] Ranma Tardis: it is up to the people of AA to contnue or depart
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what “passive” means 
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: passive in theory
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: is it really going to be a problem if a very vew cannot be on the board?
[11:01] Jamie Palisades chuckles
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example… imagine that the board decides to resell the land to, say, Desmond.
[11:01] Kaseido Quandry: all it can do is hold the property and conduct such activitiy as is appropriate for a 501(c)(3)
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is nothing in the merger agreement that prevents that from happening.
[11:01] Ranma Tardis: as always I refuse to give my quiet passive consent
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: I see G, but we are probably not likely to see that happen.
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[11:02] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, that would terminate the nonprofit status, and open the board members to civil and criminal charges
[11:02] Tor Karlsvalt: and Sudane could seel to Caladon now.
[11:02] Kaseido Quandry: that’s more blue sky that Sundane wiping the sims. Do be real.
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why would that terminate the nonprofit status?  They could sell the sims without profit 
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that is a red herring.
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: Any board would have to vote.
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Surely nonprofits can get rid of their assets, and get a small fee to support their activities doing that.
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: three of the trustees would have to agree.
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: the purpose of the nonprofit, approved by the IRS, is to manage certain properties in Second Life and conduct educational and cutltural activities
[11:03] Patroklus Murakami: so, we’re back to ‘trust’ again
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Tor — and what’s the problem with that?
[11:03] Mikelo Serevi: NPs can donate excess to other NPs
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: to do otherwise opens the directors up to US legal charges
[11:03] Ranma Tardis: what if the citizens of AA want to remain non profit?
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well ok. So they could transfer it to another NP.
[11:04] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, a coporation can – a specific purpose 501(c)(3) cannot
[11:04] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t think three trustees wouls agree to sell the sims unless the RA instructed them too
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I don’t see why they couldn’t agree on that
[11:04] Ranma Tardis: the RA has too much power
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
[11:04] Kaseido Quandry: this is not a real issue.
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s another issue, Ranma… 
[11:04] Ranma Tardis: it is the issue of freedom
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Kas… I’m glad you think that way, but the point is, it’s really just a question to transfer trust.
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Kas. A corp would still be favorable to one AV having ALL the real power.
[11:05] Kaseido Quandry: no, Gwyn, it’s not
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes it is 
[11:05] Kaseido Quandry: one is a mater of trust, one is a matter of trust plus very vigorous enforcement of US law
[11:05] anissa2008 GossipGirl: i agree with ranma personally
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: that is it! We TRUST Sudane.
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Kas. Then it means that it *has* to be a US nonprofit then 
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: or canadian law
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a Canadian one.
[11:06] Ranma Tardis: also anything fincianal is done by people in the open, not doing so might bring up charges under the Patroit act
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: folks, we are at the two hour mark. i think we are adding to the box marked ‘non-profit’ issues
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: “Sudane is nice” is a very different thing from “Directors can go to RL jail”
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we move on and complete consideration of all the merger agreement before we conclude
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: okay?
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: agreed
[11:06] Solomon Mosely: if this is such an issue, can’t the exec and ra direct the NP board to modify the charter?
[11:06] Pip Torok: agreed
[11:06] Tor Karlsvalt: ok pat
[11:07] Kaseido Quandry: Solomon, yes!
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait, Kas — the merger agreement says that the AA sims are going to be transferred to ANOTHER non-profit now  Surely taht is allowed? 
[11:07] Tor Karlsvalt: I think Gwyn wasn’t here earlier.
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: okay, section 6 follows
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: 6. CDS will open a funded local sim event programming panel, on the same terms to be used for other CDS communities, for the AA estate. CDS government and AA management each warrant that they are aware of no theme, feasibility or appropriateness issues with the cultural and event programming activities presently conducted on ther AA sims.
[11:07] Ranma Tardis: I feel like I am at a CDS meeting, am I the only AA citizen left?
[11:07] Jamie Palisades: amen: Gwyneth Llewelyn: .. lt’s really just a question to transfer trust. .. will CDS every trust anyone other than the original folks who kicked out the last owners?
[11:07] Kaseido Quandry: Ranma, look over my head.
[11:07] Jamie Palisades: This is a CDS meeting/ CDS including AA — until some of you undo that.
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: very funny, Jamie 
[11:08] Ranma Tardis: two
[11:08] Jamie Palisades: Gwynnie, i am conpletely serious
[11:08] Solomon Mosely: actaually, a new np doesnt have to be formed, did you already cover that?
[11:08] Ranma Tardis: but you are a member of the cds too
[11:08] Jamie Palisades: i gave up power happily – that’s how democraices work – maybe not social democracies?
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The you work under a delusion, and I’m afraid nothing in my power can change that 
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: yes solomon thanks 
[11:08] Keila Forager: Seems to me you are all discussing an issue that was already voted on and approved. Shouldn’t the issue be “yes” we can do or “no ” we won’t?
[11:08] Arria Perreault: I think we should decide that AA is only a geographical term …
[11:08] Tor Karlsvalt: yes sol
[11:08] Kaseido Quandry: thank you Keila!
[11:08] Arria Perreault: we all are CDS citizen
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: i assume no problems with section 6?
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: this has happened, hasn’t it?
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think so. I thought this is pretty much what the regional committees are for
[11:09] Ranma Tardis: well speaking as a AA citizen and only a AA citizen, I am against the continuation of the merger. No amount of talk will change my mind
[11:09] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree AP. I wish we could all see ourselves as one group. Indeed many in AA were/are CDS.
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll post s.7
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: 7. This offer will remain open for 60 days from the date this resolution is adopted. AA may accept by its current EO so stating in writing, so long as:
(a) he/she confirms that a specific map of the combined CDS-AA sim territories, which has been approved by the RA, also is acceptable to AA; and
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, 7 is ok, Pat
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s “past tense”
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: (b) The CDS government and AA EO are satisfied, at the time of acceptance, that] a substantial number of AA residents have not indicated the intent to leave AA at the time of combination.
CDS and AA will submit a territory sim join request to Linden Lab, when and if that acceptance is received and those conditions are met] within the allotted time. [CDS will pay the applicable sim location transfer fees.
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: all of it happened
[11:10] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: s.8
[11:10] Ranma Tardis: I say to dual members enjoy being in the CDS without those who refuse to have anything to do with them
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we can go to 8
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: 8. CDS and AA agree that, on the one year anniversary of the actual sim relocation, and for seven calendar days thereafter:
(a) The AA EO may elect after consultation with AA citizens to notify the CDS government in writing that the AA EO wished to separate the six AA sims from CDS, as a separate estate.
(b) The CDS RA may by a 2/3rds majority vote, and posted notice of that vote to AA and CDS citizens, elect to re-separate the six AA sims from CDS, as a separate estate.
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: Upon receipt of either notice, if it occurs, CDS will give up any rights in control over the AA nonprofit entity and AA EO, and have no further liability for the AA sims; and the AA EO and residents will absolve CDS of any such further liability. In such event AA and CDS will work in reasonable good faith to achieve a smooth transition.
If neither notice is received by the end of the seventh calendar day, this option to separate is permanently terminated.
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: The so-called ‘wasp’ clause 
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: or Pat clause 
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I personally don’t think that 8 is really a “problem”
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie 
[11:11] Arria Perreault: We know the problem of this point: AA community can decide on both site
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: Yes?
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: well, let’s personalise issues
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: why not? 
[11:11] Tor Karlsvalt: I think we can do this merger. And I see AA people runing for RA. So they are becoming part of CDS institutions.
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: Arria, i thikn it is an option for either side, not just AA
[11:12] Arria Perreault: they can decide as AA community but they have a representation in the RA. And the RA need a 2/3 vote
[11:12] Jamie Palisades: and I thikn this meeting is about whetehr CDS should pul the trigger and kill it
[11:12] Arria Perreault: it’s just inequal
[11:12] Tor Karlsvalt: Obviously a year with only two elections may not be a lot of time for both to merge totally, legally and culturally.
[11:12] Patroklus Murakami: no, not kill jamie. just go for something different. more equal
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: true arria, it is
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AA has a slight advantage, as they can elect 2/3 of the CDS RA seats, and make sure that their option (either pro or against the merger) is enforced 
[11:12] Jamie Palisades: genuiely intriguing, pat – like what? convert to franchulate?
[11:12] Patroklus Murakami: this is the ‘unequal treaty’ part
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, I personally don’t see a problem.
[11:13] Solomon Mosely: well, cant the dual cds/aa citizens do the same thing in aa discussions, arria?
[11:13] Ranma Tardis: I have issues with the CDS but perhaps I am just too “American”, something I heard enough to get sick
[11:13] Tor Karlsvalt: It is a contrct that should not be broken easily.
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: no jamie. just live next to each other and be friendly
[11:13] Jamie Palisades: i have some RL travel issues that will pull me away – but i’d love to see more expansion of Pat’s idea that there are some other options
[11:13] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t see the 2/3rds rule as unreasonable
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: but run our affairs separately
[11:13] Ranma Tardis: yes Pat that is agreable
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: maybe help each other out with evetns and even funding
[11:13] Mikelo Serevi: This is what we always did before
[11:13] Solomon Mosely: is this because the new pat, does breaking the merger go with your RA size ammendment?
[11:13] Arria Perreault: the RA is an Assembly of all
[11:13] Keila Forager: or since individuals are running for office, they might not get any representatives
[11:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Pat, I think that is my fallback position
[11:14] Arria Perreault: it doesnt represent the CDS original sims community
[11:14] Patroklus Murakami: a ‘confederation’ of equals rather than a loveless marriage 
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: pat, does breaking the merger go with your RA size ammendment?
[11:14] Tor Karlsvalt: I would like to see the meger tried.
[11:14] Mikelo Serevi: lol pat
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Tor, I think that the whole merger agreement was based on the goodwill assumption that it WOULD go through, and that’s why it is, in essence, biased towards making it more easy to go ahead than to break it. As said, I have no personal problems with that.
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: the ra gets too big for a small group to influence?
[11:14] Mikelo Serevi: tor, I think we have been trying it
[11:14] Arria Perreault: Tor, we tried for almost one year
[11:14] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, there’s one realproblem with that – the agreement doesn’t hold CDS to respect any of its terms *after* the merger
[11:14] Ranma Tardis: actually, if the cds takes full control of AA a lot of us would simply leave
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: i dont think so mike
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, the trial period is “now”  After July, there is no possibility to “go back” 
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn’s right
[11:15] Solomon Mosely: sure, its a democracy, anything can get voted on in the future, if pepoel want
[11:15] Arria Perreault: since last summer, Tor
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good point, Kas.
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: after July, thhhhhCDS can do anything
[11:15] Tor Karlsvalt: Understood.
[11:15] Jamie Palisades: Arria, did we try? Did we fail? Did Stui and all those people on RA fail to make it a joint government this last year? WHY are you calling it a fail?
[11:15] Ranma Tardis: not true agrements are not gospil
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: (sorry, keyboard driver problems)
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After July, there is no more separation of CDS or AA… except for ownership of the AA sims
[11:15] Patroklus Murakami: i’ve supported teh merger throughout, even argued for it at the last town hall. but it’s become clear to me it isn’t working
[11:16] Tor Karlsvalt: I feel tho we much of this is an effort toward giving up on the merger.
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: not true,
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: they can de merge
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: it’s not just merger or bust. we can have a different relationship
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: as a democracy, which wont be destroyed by aa people
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: we can vote to make any changes
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: why can’t we explore the options?
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ranma’s point is a valid one, though: the “common government” will have access to all sims, all themes, and can change all clauses of the current agreement except one. Is that something that bothers AA citizens?
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: Kas, I see mo problem there — it IS in fact time for AA t risk being utterly controlled by CDS  or not — depending I guess on how fair & receptive they think CDS is, smile
[11:16] Arria Perreault: We got blocking for the project Sacromonte, which was not normal, because the idea was to act as one community
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: why does it ahve to be black and white?
[11:16] Ranma Tardis: I have no desire to destroy the CDS “democracy”
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: *no problem
[11:17] Arria Perreault: then we got so many critics, while we have made many efforts
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I think when the merger is finally dead we can look at optons.
[11:17] Arria Perreault: look all what was done in communication
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: but we should work to make the agreement work.
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: Sorry? More criqtiuse than is usual in CDS government?
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Won’t that be too late, Tor? “If neither notice is received by the end of the seventh calendar day, this option to separate is permanently terminated.”
[11:17] Arria Perreault: take the example of communication
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: we have some time
[11:17] Keila Forager: You got blocked because Rose was already in negotiations to rent it out, I remember reading that
[11:18] Solomon Mosely: but aa will be continue being a part of cds and the government, nothing has to happen to them without their support
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: try looking at ways to change their minds, I am only speaking out for the others that will not
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami wonders if ‘dunabar’s number’ is 80 in virtual worlds and not 150….
[11:18] Tor Karlsvalt: it seems this boils down to trust
[11:18] Arria Perreault: I think we have more progresses than in several past terms
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: yes Tor you are so correct
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes 
[11:18] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS does not trust AA to change the dem. system and AA worries that CDS will destroy its mission
[11:18] Arria Perreault: now we have improved the portal, open a Twitter, a Facce
[11:18] Pip Torok makes a mental note to research Dunbar’s number
[11:18] Arria Perreault: a Facebook page
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: yes
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it’s quite interesting, Pip  )
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: Arria, before AA, “the good old Alpine” CDS tried to oust about 1 elected official per year. How is this more contentious?
[11:19] Tor Karlsvalt: we need to see that niether side has to feer the other.
[11:19] Arria Perreault: and we got critics for a silly notice that was not sent on time …
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do more AA residents share Ranma’s opinion?
[11:19] Solomon Mosely: who is on the commission to create cash flow solutions for cds and aa?
[11:19] Solomon Mosely: who is on the pio team to coordinate events?
[11:19] Keila Forager: and the portal is still as difficult to navigate as before
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: Solomon = starts with chancellor – HAS TO!
[11:19] Ranma Tardis: Neaultenberg was about a syatem of checks and balances, the RA destroyed them
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami: if the merger is made permanent, we should all try to make it work
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: let’s ask Sonja
[11:19] Arria Perreault: we did this only with good will and volunteering
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: but i don’t think it will be pretty, or much fun
[11:20] Sonja Strom: Solomon, are you volunteering to help with them?
[11:20] Sonja Strom: Jamie, are you?
[11:20] Jamie Palisades sort of makes a ocnfused look
[11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Generally wwhere there is criticism there is room to improve and such institutions will improve to avoid repetition – is it different here ?
[11:20] Jamie Palisades: SO\onja I put in dozens of hours a week for 18 months
[11:20] Sonja Strom: If anybody here will help, please IM me and we can work on it.
[11:20] Pip Torok: Ranma, if the checks and balances allowed one-sided trashing, then I truly wonder about that
[11:20] Jamie Palisades: what do you wish, at the moment?
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Stui!
[11:20] Arria Perreault: Jamie, I know that every CDS goverment got critics, but poeple are considering people like me as rascal, do you think it’s still rationnal?
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: and what if we disagree stui, on what improvement means?
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Pat 
[11:21] Arria Perreault: when*
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patty
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where there is cause for criticism by the people
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that is where we must act
[11:21] Jamie Palisades: :/ i don;t think you are a rascal, i thikn you are an artist who has kindly agreed to preside over this squabbling bunch 
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to avoid this state of play
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: i prefer ‘patsy’  if we’re using drag names
[11:21] Jamie Palisades: and you have my strong sympathy
[11:21] Tor Karlsvalt: 
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or compassion 
[11:22] Arria Perreault: do you think I chair the RA as an artist? 
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where AP and others can get upset over consistent reminders of the short comings of the system
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: Ha ha not a bad idea – i tried doing it as a mediator and liontamer
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ok Patty
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, guys, guys… sorry but we should continue to focus on the issue… we have more Town hall meetings to discuss other issues 
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: maybe artist will work better 
[11:22] Mikelo Serevi: I’m grateful for Arria’s efforts myself
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: Hear, hear Mikelo
[11:22] Pip Torok: me too Mikelo
[11:23] Arria Perreault: I have trie to find bridges to the AA community
[11:23] Arria Perreault: realy
[11:23] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, didn’t notice we has strayed!
[11:23] Tor Karlsvalt: Good AP. I think we all need to do that for each of us.
[11:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the truth is that there is an element of conservatism in the system just for the sake of it
[11:23] Jamie Palisades: :/ but you have RA members from there … that’s like saying “I tried to find bridges to All\pine Meadows people”
[11:23] Patroklus Murakami: if we are thinking about s.8, this is teh one which is now under discussion
[11:23] Keila Forager: and the unwillingness for change
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we did, Pat  We’re shifting the focus about the merger agreement to validating what people have been doing (or not)
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: chaos is not good for stability, stui
[11:24] Arria Perreault: I wished AA poeple had considered my real efforts instead to stay their ideological view of CDS
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: and will be determined partly by the outcome of the next elections
[11:24] Jamie Palisades: Not sure we need bridges — prettt such the govt and EOs need to talk more, and that the RA needs to act on form of government 
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then there is a debate about the improvement of the system Mikelo
[11:24] Arria Perreault: as LRA, I have open the RA agenda to any citizen
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well improvements are qualified by the citizens
[11:24] Pip Torok: well THIS AA person does, Arria 
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where criticism is voiced
[11:25] Solomon Mosely: the relevance of this shift in focus gwen,
[11:25] Jamie Palisades: i case there is a doubt, let me say again, like i did on the forums last wek — i think Arria has acted fairly, carefully and (amazingly) politely, from what I know of the last 4 months
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the government must work to iron the crease
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Stui. Then the question is: in what way is the “improvement of the system” a condition for the merger to go ahead successfully?
[11:25] Solomon Mosely: is to show the efforts to make this owrk have been minimal
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: i think there has been an aggressive attempt to attack the CDS institutions and use AA as a battering ram for change
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, of course, what is to be done in terms of mmmh “improvements”?
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean concrete examples.
[11:25] Jamie Palisades: it;s not the RA’s job to start work on getting the nonprofit corp thing solved — or the rent boxex
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patty then if that is your view
[11:25] Tor Karlsvalt: I don’t think so Pat.
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a few, ironically from Michel Manen: direct Chancellor election
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you are as much part of the problem as the solution
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: Hmm, that may be pat
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: darling, so are you 
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as you percieve the battering ram
[11:26] Tor Karlsvalt: Seems CDS is overly worried about an Ulrika.
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, you’re actually quite right 
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it is there
[11:26] Jamie Palisades: given me much to think on – we started a good experiment – i wonder if we can keep it? travel pulls me away, regards to all
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: bye jamie
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: bye jamie
[11:26] Ranma Tardis: Tor stop slandering my friend Ulrika!
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you, Jamie, thanks for coming!
[11:26] Sonja Strom: bye Jamie
[11:26] Tor Karlsvalt: so it is too sensitive about loosing democracy to a tyrant.
[11:26] Arria Perreault: bye Jamie
[11:27] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: i think it would be nice sometimes if ppl who want to change the CDS would recognise that, in so many ways, it actually works?
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I agree, Tor, and I personally admit that I worry about that, but can understand that others don’t.
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: Well, tor, perhaps it’s more vigilance than fear
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Pat 
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But ok, let’s pick up Stui’s thread…
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What “improvements” have to be made?
[11:27] Tor Karlsvalt: I think CDS is amazing.
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean on the “system”.
[11:27] Arria Perreault: the best we can do now would be a summary of all answers we got on the agreement
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: rather than aggressively tearing down everything that ppl spent years working to build up

RA Town Hall Meeting 2 May 2010: Transcript – Part 4
by mikeloserevi » Sun May 02, 2010 12:33 pm
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What has to be concretely and pragmatically done? Not just “vague” things please.
[11:28] Pip Torok: pat, some ppl are never going to get “if it ain’t broke ….”
[11:28] Arria Perreault: so people don’t have to read all the meeting’s transcript
[11:28] Tor Karlsvalt: And I undersand the need for vigilance.
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well AP mentioned criticism and Patty said about battering rams
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, let’s turn the criticism into concrete actions! WHat needs to be done?
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: good idea arria. i will review the answers we got and try to post tomething
[11:28] Solomon Mosely: pat!
[11:28] Solomon Mosely: good point
[11:28] Tor Karlsvalt: but I don’t think the institutions are in danger.
[11:29] Solomon Mosely: why cant you see that the eveolution of the cds, which you hold so dear, has been done by people who were trying to improve it
[11:29] Solomon Mosely: not tear it down
[11:29] Solomon Mosely: why is this different
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn hates to insist in the same point…
[11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that perhaps there is a culture in the sims to see criticism as a purely negative thing
[11:29] Ranma Tardis: before I go, the coup destroyed the Neualtenberg Projekt and before my friend Kendra passed away she was blamed as well. Insulting them is an insult to me
[11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but there can be constructive criticism
[11:29] Patroklus Murakami: of course sol. i’ve helped to make those reforms
[11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: which is rather more an observation
[11:29] Kaseido Quandry: outstanding, Solomon!
[11:29] Solomon Mosely: /why?
[11:29] Solomon Mosely: did you hate the cds?
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: I hadn’t realized anyone would be forced to change, sol
[11:30] Solomon Mosely: did you hate the democracy as it was?
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: but i don’t see ppl putting forward postive proposals
[11:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and a rallying point for making bad good, good better and better best
[11:30] Ranma Tardis: I am all that is left of Port Neualtenberg
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But what changes?
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry raises her hand for Pat there
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What are “good” changes? Let’s hear examples!
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: all i see is incoherent criticism
[11:30] Solomon Mosely: i see, its their fault for not putting ideas that suited you
[11:30] Pip Torok: sol , we conclude that when we see that those ppl are tearing-down PEOPLE ….
[11:30] Patroklus Murakami: where si teh legislation? where are the ideas?
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry: Constructive reform of campaign law, tyvm
[11:30] Mikelo Serevi: let’s not get talking about ‘progress’
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, that’s a good point, Kas!
[11:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well there was a lot of criticism about the agenda of the RA meetings
[11:30] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree gwyn, I don’t see where AA is going to ruin CDS institutions.
[11:30] Ranma Tardis: I see no reason to remain here and be insulted. I am against the merger
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: about the location of the citizens in process
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Was that addressed successfully, Kas? What can be improved?
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt: in fact AA came to CDS FOR its institutions.
[11:31] Kaseido Quandry: hear hear Tor
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and we addressed that
[11:31] Solomon Mosely: how about commssions to work on the issues that people find the biggest barriers to a merger?
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami: yes kas, ty you had a point and backed it up with a proposal. that i can work with
[11:31] Mikelo Serevi: I’m against it too, ranma
[11:31] Ranma Tardis: I tried to see eye to eye
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Solomon!
[11:31] Solomon Mosely: like finance, and the rumor of the AA drain on cds?
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s another good idea!
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but without the original complaint
[11:31] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, Pat and I met and made excellent progress toward a solid proposal
[11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there’d be no progress on that
[11:31] Arria Perreault: if it right, Tor, AA people should trust them
[11:31] Ranma Tardis: certain people are offensive and insulting
[11:31] Solomon Mosely: how about a commission to explore other ways of producing income there that do meet with ss apporval
[11:31] Arria Perreault: these institutions works for many years and each term improve them
[11:31] Kaseido Quandry: which I think shows the real strengh of CDS at its best
[11:32] Solomon Mosely: instead of suggesting things that will of course be offensive to its residents?
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So now we have two concrete actions. 1. Work on the campaigning issues. 2. Get the Finance Commission to report on AA finances 3. Get the Trader’s commission operational
[11:32] Pip Torok: Ranma …. if Ulrika didnt do those things, then why not say so and let the past remain in the past?
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, three
[11:32] Tor Karlsvalt: And complaints about RA….. Where do any of us live where we don’t complain aboug Congrss, parilament or town hall?
[11:32] Solomon Mosely: as if by offering them rotten fruit, you have tried your best
[11:32] Ranma Tardis: like Kendra I think that money is the goal of certain people here not the process
[11:32] Arria Perreault: Tor, wait to sit in the RA
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have three concrete actions!
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can we list more?
[11:33] Pip Torok: the evidence, Ranma … let’s have the evidence
[11:33] Tor Karlsvalt: yeah Ranma, rightly or wrongly she part of CDS lore and a symbol of tyrrany.
[11:33] Arria Perreault: you work hard and kindly and you got not even critics, but insults
[11:33] Ranma Tardis: you keep insulting my friend
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: we should summarise the discussion of the merger agreement
[11:33] Kaseido Quandry: where are we on the nonprofit? I didn’t hear anything clear there –
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: i’ll try to identify main themes
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: and feel free to add
[11:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I believe that perhaps for a while people have used the partner sim group as a convenient scapegoat for the source of what we perhaps didn’t want to hear
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: non-profit was the big question
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Kas question too
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: lots of questions we ahve not yet resolved
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye …
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: about who can be on it, which jurisdiciton to use
[11:34] Arria Perreault: I will read again what was said about non-profit org. I think it’s one of the main issue
[11:34] Ranma Tardis: agree with you friend Pat
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: safeguards agains abuse/ selling off sims
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you can use “any” nonprofit, or if you need a new one
[11:34] Arria Perreault: especially because the consequences on our rl lifes
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: interaction with CDS govnt
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right!
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: agreement (generally) that we don’t have to resolve all of this now
[11:34] Pip Torok: Ranma … you have not denied what jonty Peel told me, how can I be insulting Ulrika?
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: interaction with the citizens (in the sense of publishing internal NP decisions for all citizens to read)
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: but we do need to resolve it
[11:34] Tor Karlsvalt: I think we can use the existing NP just put CDS people on it
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: ppl pls. let’s try to stay on topic for the sake of ppl reading this
[11:35] Solomon Mosely: we just have the chancellor sign on as np exec
[11:35] Ranma Tardis: you blame her for all of the problems that lead to the breakup of the Neualtenberg Projekt
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: another big issue is communications
[11:35] Solomon Mosely: and form the four memeber body for the board
[11:35] Solomon Mosely: its done
[11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, that is a very good question, and one asked before — but that is a question that we have to ask if it’s acceptable and within the spirit of the agreement, so that nobody gets accused of distorting its meaning
[11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say “yes”
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: the merger agreement said what had to be ‘transferred’ but was not so clear on how ppl should work with each other and talk to each other
[11:36] Tor Karlsvalt: Ok G. I think that woudl be acceptable to AA.
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: it’s clear that some key ppl need to talk to each other more
[11:36] Solomon Mosely: if you need a summary now, its that we keep the merger and make more concrete steps to engage in activities to find solutions and exagerate the problems
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Pat  But apparently today we established that it would take more than just a phone call  Which is progress…
[11:36] Imotali Antiesse: sorry whats np?
[11:36] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS jsut has to name the board members.
[11:36] Tor Karlsvalt: or RA does
[11:36] Mikelo Serevi: non profit
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, could that be officially published?
[11:36] Patroklus Murakami: most other aspects of the merger agreement were fine and have been implemented
[11:37] Imotali Antiesse: k
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If so, we’d have at least ONE thing settled.
[11:37] Solomon Mosely: non profit
[11:37] Patroklus Murakami: is that a fair summary of our discussion?
[11:37] Ranma Tardis: yes that is part of the problem, the cds ditating who owns AA
[11:37] Tor Karlsvalt: I am sure it could. I understood that was Jaime’s first idea.
[11:37] Pip Torok: I think yes
[11:37] Kaseido Quandry agrees with Pat’s summary
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn also agrees with Pat’s summary
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Tor)
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (but the citiznes need to know if Jamie’s idea represents what EVERYBODY — including current VDI members! — is thinking=
[11:38] Solomon Mosely: no ranma
[11:38] Tor Karlsvalt: I understant Gwyn.
[11:38] Solomon Mosely: the people all elect the ra which can have all the aa members it wants
[11:38] Solomon Mosely: and then they decide on the chancellor, who leads the np
[11:38] Tor Karlsvalt: I will work on getting that out.
[11:38] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, a clarification from the VDI board and both parties to the merger agreement – the then-Chancellor and AAEO – would be a very good thing
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Tor!
[11:38] Solomon Mosely: sry pat, could you restate yor summary?
[11:38] Ranma Tardis: I support Rose
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d personally be more than happy with that, Kas
[11:39] Arria Perreault: did we get an answer about non UScitizen as member/board of VDI?
[11:39] Pip Torok: Ranma, broken records bore and exasperate after multiple repetitions ….
[11:39] Delia Lake is trying to keep up with the conversation but is on a rl 5 hr! business conference call at the same time
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not a legal answer, Arria 
[11:39] Sonja Strom: lol Delia
[11:39] Ranma Tardis: you are insulting Tor
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami: i’m afraid not sol. i’ll try to take them out to make a summary when this goes on the forums
[11:39] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I can do some research, and post on the forums, or you could just ask Rose, who’s current with that law and set of regs
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: darn RL
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: poor Delia 
[11:39] Arria Perreault: so it’s an issue
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it is.
[11:39] Kaseido Quandry: no, it’s a question.
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: I need to get some things done today too
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well hehe
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it’s a question 
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: delia, you have my sympathies 
[11:40] Arria Perreault: who can give the answer, then?
[11:40] Arria Perreault: yes, Delia
[11:40] Delia Lake: i can say though that we have on a number of occasions, as VDI talked about adding CDS officials to the nonprofit
[11:40] Kaseido Quandry: ffs, Arria, I’ve answered that 3 times
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The answer can be “no way”, “yes, under special circunstances” (and we’d need to know which ones) and “yes without a problem”
[11:40] Kaseido Quandry: I can do some research or you can ask Rose, who would readily know
[11:40] Arria Perreault: before you leave, can you send me the list odf approved citizen?
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: does this feel like a suitable point to end? or start drawing to a close?
[11:40] Arria Perreault: I will publish it on the portal
[11:40] Patroklus Murakami: ty arria. that would be very helpful
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: i assume the SC now has an approved list?
[11:41] Solomon Mosely: so was the summary that no ne is going to call for a vote to demerge?
[11:41] Arria Perreault: tx, Kas
[11:41] Ranma Tardis: did not want to be the angry chick but Tor you have crossed the line
[11:41] Delia Lake: i don’t know about US citizenship or anonymity though
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: sol, the CSDF candidates are standing in favour of demerging
[11:41] Delia Lake: yes. the SC has the citizens list.
[11:41] Solomon Mosely: still?
[11:41] Patroklus Murakami: others may do so too
[11:42] Arria Perreault: I am ready to publish on the portal
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh apparently in Nevada there is no problem: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Nonprofit-La … profit.htm (don’t you love Google?)
[11:42] Arria Perreault: it’s usefull for the canditates
[11:42] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, under most state law it’s fine -the question is more about the IRS regs
[11:42] Arria Perreault: VDI is in Texas
[11:42] Solomon Mosely: could you stand for making progress towards making the merger successful, instead?
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same in Kansas: http://www.mainstreaminc.net/knpa/questions.html#FC
[11:43] Kaseido Quandry: “nonprofit corporation” and “IRS nonprofit status” are two different beasts
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, true, Kas
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: well, that *is* what i’m standing for sol 
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good point!
[11:43] Ranma Tardis: I appoligise to all but one and did not intend to get angry but this is a meeting of CDS people minus one.
[11:43] Solomon Mosely: yes, and no new non profit has to be formed
[11:43] Solomon Mosely: no, thats not the same thing at all
[11:43] Kaseido Quandry: afaik, there’s no citizenship problem per state corporate law
[11:43] Patroklus Murakami: abandon our marriage but live next door and have fun together
[11:43] Ranma Tardis: You have to convience the AA people, not just yourselves
[11:43] Arria Perreault: Sol, where do you intend to build your rl non-profit?
[11:44] Kaseido Quandry: and I doubt there is in the regs, but I’m not going to give an uniformed opinion
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: if you get your way about the merger, will you still push for the RA size change pat?
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: i dont arria
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: after talking with rose more,
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: i don’t think the merger works as currently drafted and i haven’t seen a reason to change my opinion
[11:44] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: i have learned that a new NP isnt needed
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: sol, the RA size thing is a separate question
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: then pat
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: as a democracy, we can change things
[11:44] Solomon Mosely: i dont think so
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: up to the RA to pass it or not (it needs 2/3)
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the letter of the agreement says otherwise, but if everybody is happy with the interpretation that drops the REQUIREMENT of having a new NP, that’s ok
[11:45] Kaseido Quandry: precisely, Gwyn
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: not sure it’s something i would push to the top of the RA agenda right now though!
[11:45] Tor Karlsvalt: i don’t think that is a problem
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: we have other things to discuss!
[11:45] Solomon Mosely: yes, like how to make more money for all the reserves and events without raising rents
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: )
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: Sol for president
[11:46] Kaseido Quandry makes some rockin’ digital muffins….
[11:46] Ranma Tardis: but this was a meeting for AA citizens to discuss merger, not strictly CDS things
[11:46] Arria Perreault: I don’t think I will ever feel confortable with this rl org, wherever it is
[11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good idea, Sol, you could run for Chancellor 
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: sol, if you want to sort that out i suggest you don’t try the RA
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: indeed, run for chancellor instead!
[11:46] Sonja Strom: Yes, Solomon 
[11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither will I, Arria, but, alas… I see a slight difference today
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: A chicken in every pot!
[11:46] Sonja Strom: I will help you…
[11:46] Patroklus Murakami: the RA is for laws and planning
[11:47] Solomon Mosely: awww, thanks guys
[11:47] Solomon Mosely: so sweet of you to say
[11:47] Arria Perreault: I see also the potential issue we could have with LL
[11:47] Solomon Mosely: but no, i think rose would be a much better qualified person than i
[11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Sol — depends on what you wish to do, discuss legislations or plan events, raise funds, administer things…
[11:47] Solomon Mosely: well, shes done all of that
[11:47] Solomon Mosely: perfect
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria: yes  On the other hand, if VDI keeps the AA sims, they will keep the discount… while transferring to a different NP is really a question of “luck” these days.
[11:48] Sonja Strom: anybody who becomes Chancellor, I will help them.
[11:48] Solomon Mosely: so sonja, ra, who will move for a land managemnt committee to coordinate the rental and land marketing issues?
[11:48] Arria Perreault: we have several sims owned by a non-profit to be rented cheaper and these sims send their money to CDS which is not non-profit. It’s a bit like CDS is abusing LL terms of services to make some profits. CDS could have an issue with LL.
[11:49] Solomon Mosely: to keep “the tub” more full, more often?
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria: not if there are different EOs!
[11:49] Kaseido Quandry: yes, there’s no issue there
[11:49] Arria Perreault: we have a transfer of money
[11:49] Kaseido Quandry: “CDS” doesn’t have any meaningful existence for LL’s purposes
[11:49] Arria Perreault: the money from AA is transferred to CDS
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was going to type what Kas just said
[11:50] Arria Perreault: maybe not CDS, but the owner of CDS has
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you’re right as well, Arria
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a time-bomb really.
[11:50] Arria Perreault: I think so
[11:50] Tor Karlsvalt: That we need to talk about.
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day we have to seriously consider the issue. LL has been way less tolerant
[11:50] Solomon Mosely: no one, ok
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But… I’ve requested repeatedly for them to *publish* their documentation
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they didn’t.
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which in LL parlance means: “we really don’t want to be forced to enforce that, except on some cases” 
[11:51] Tor Karlsvalt: wouldn’t LL have to accept a NP if the IRS does?
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know all how LL likes to make, mmmh, “special allowances”
[11:51] Kaseido Quandry: yes, LL’s capriciousness is clear- and a good argument against keeping reserves in an avatar account 
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Tor
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The “discount” is not something that is a legal requirement in the US
[11:51] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, nope, LL can and has made random deicsions
[11:51] Delia Lake: i’m coming away from this meeting a bit concerned about the CDS state re LL. i hadn’t thought so much about that before
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: But how can LL make a determination about NP when the IRS determines one exists.
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait Tor… there are 2 things here.
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is recognising the nonprofit status
[11:52] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, LL, like any business, can give a discount on whatever terms it wants
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL cannot avoid doing that.
[11:52] Patroklus Murakami: tor, they can decide we’re not the ‘right’ sort of non-profit
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other thing is what Kas is saying.
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: ah
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: i see
[11:52] Patroklus Murakami: i.e. a rental outfit rather than an educational project
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just because you have a nonprofit, LL is not “required” to give it a discount.
[11:52] Kaseido Quandry: yep
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: ok thanks
[11:53] Ranma Tardis: I have to go, just crashed
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Ranma
[11:53] Patroklus Murakami: bye ranma  take care
[11:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, planning ahead for a time where the discount is gone, is a serious and sound policy, and I totally agree with the notion of having reserves for that event.
[11:53] Mikelo Serevi: ok, bye ranma
[11:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Ranma!
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: tc
[11:53] Delia Lake: bye Ranma
[11:53] Ranma Tardis: there is a bike and lots of sunshine
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks for coming
[11:53] Imotali Antiesse: bye Ranma
[11:54] Arria Perreault: bye Ramna
[11:54] Lilith Ivory: bye Ranma
[11:54] Ranma Tardis: oh remember taxes, does the CDS pay its taxes? It is located within he USA
[11:54] Ranma Tardis: bye bye
[11:54] Patroklus Murakami: btw, before we go, could anyone who is one of Michel Manen’s alts pls let themselves be known? 
[11:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[11:54] Kaseido Quandry: lol
[11:55] Patroklus Murakami: there has to be at least one!
[11:55] Solomon Mosely: yes, i’d like to vote for him
[11:55] Delia Lake: lol Pat, that’s not you?
[11:55] Pip Torok: lol …
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Sol 
[11:55] Solomon Mosely: 
[11:55] Tor Karlsvalt: seems I met all the people here in CDS.
[11:55] Patroklus Murakami: you may get the chance sol, but without knowing it! LOL
[11:55] Solomon Mosely: its rose
[11:55] Pip Torok: like me, sol! 
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, you should run for Chancellor too 
[11:55] Patroklus Murakami: sorry folks, naughty i iknow  but i couldn’t resist
[11:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I’m MM
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn is quite sure that Rose is not Michel 
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah Stui, you have a far better fashion style 
[11:56] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks Gwyn, I am really new compared to all of you.
[11:56] Delia Lake: oh wait, maybe i’m michel’s alt, or maybe it’s you Gwyn
[11:56] Tor Karlsvalt: still learnign about sim management and such.
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could be, Delia! 
[11:56] Arria Perreault: well, Gwyn, look at his crown 
[11:56] Pip Torok: (were sounding lik that scene from Spartacus!….
[11:56] Solomon Mosely: i know, you guys met last year, didnt you?
[11:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it’s definitely Tor
[11:56] Imotali Antiesse: mm a girl now
[11:57] Patroklus Murakami: stui, you have much better taste in clothes 
[11:57] Patroklus Murakami: then again…
[11:57] Solomon Mosely: lol
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am teaching Tor how to dress
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: this week topless in jeans
[11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, now seriously… don’t let “newness” be a factor in NOT running for Chancellor!!
[11:57] Tor Karlsvalt: Stui shoudl be careful. Crowned heads sometimes get lost.
[11:57] Patroklus Murakami: i’m afraid i must get going. are we at an end now in any case?
[11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Stui
[11:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: next week sparkly hotpants
[11:57] Solomon Mosely: there’s a revenue stream,
[11:57] Solomon Mosely: tickets to a topless ra
[11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn grins
[11:57] Mikelo Serevi: I think we’ve finished
[11:58] Arria Perreault: yes, but the entrance will not be free 
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We *did* have a Cabaret once… we could revive that again!
[11:58] Patroklus Murakami: ‘topless ra’, okay, i’m game 
[11:58] Kaseido Quandry: lol, Solomon!
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi: I did get a new skin
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or turn the RA into a Cabaret… 
[11:58] Tor Karlsvalt: ok, that will spike intereset in RA.
[11:58] Delia Lake: wait a minute, don’t all run for chancellor. we have to elect the RA first and need enough candidates to hold the election
[11:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Topless Tor the Titty Terror
[11:58] Kaseido Quandry: vote for me! I’ve got a *great* rack! :p
[11:58] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops yes, good point Delia — did we get the 13 candidates at least??
[11:58] Patroklus Murakami: 15
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh that’s excellent!!!!
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: great news 
[11:59] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:59] Patroklus Murakami: it is, shame there weren’t more though
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well yes
[11:59] Sonja Strom: Now I am trying to organise Candidate Debates.
[11:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Tor may share a bench with me
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we say that every term, Pat 
[11:59] Arria Perreault: 15 on 131, not bad
[11:59] Delia Lake: we have 15 candidates, posted on the forum
[11:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you just make sure he keeps his hands to himself
[11:59] Solomon Mosely: still, its better than having to force people to run, against their will
[11:59] Patroklus Murakami: better than just one !
[11:59] Arria Perreault: more than 10%
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok I haven’t read that yet, Delia — thanks
[11:59] Patroklus Murakami: like last time!
[12:00] Arria Perreault: Delia, I ask again for the list of citizen ….
[12:00] Patroklus Murakami is turning off the recorder soon
[12:00] Sonja Strom: Please look at this post about having a debate: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2833
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine in officially closing the Town Hall meeting
[12:00] Patroklus Murakami: pls click it to indicate consent to being recorded
[12:00] Tor Karlsvalt: me too
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with being recorded
[12:00] Arria Perreault: we really don’t know now who is and who is not citizen
[12:00] Patroklus Murakami: the transcript will be posted on teh forums
[12:00] Tor Karlsvalt: this has been a good meeting.
[12:00] Solomon Mosely: and i think as aa gets more comfortable with the process, they will come out in greater numbers to run
[12:00] Patroklus Murakami: we are adjourned

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